Yeah, for some reason I thought that one of the those properties was a +2. My bad.
As far as I am concerned, the issue is finally settled. At the end of the day, nobody would be happy with any house rules on the subject, so I am conceding here. I already listed my plans for DR to keep as true to the rules as possible.
1) +5 Amulet for Properties
2) +5 Body Wraps for DR
3) Permanent GMF to cushion the lose for when the Wraps wear off
In the spirit of being more of a team player, I also took Forge Ring, so we have that magic item covered for the 0.75 discounted rate. Jacob had weapons, armor, and rods covered, and wondrous items were on a lot of other characters. However, I noticed that nobody had any rings!
On the fluff side, I am giving Nagato a minor fascination with rings. They are just a comforting thing for her.
Also, I disagree that non-casters are useless at this level. For example, Barbarians are anti-magic juggernauts at this point.
On a completely different note: if anyone should notice any errors on my sheet, please let me know. I try to be as accurate as possible, but I'm also only human and make mistakes. I can take it, really.
On that note though, I've noticed a minor error on Negato's sheet regarding the Fate's Favored trait. Please note that this is not me trying to beat up on you or anything like that. I really do not want to give you that impression. I simply value accuracy and the rules that make up this game. I have not actually gone in depth into anyones character yet (and probably wont unless asked to), but have skimmed them all. One person already left during the original recruitment phase because he thought he was being attacked after asking a question for advice when all we wanted to do was help give that advice but couldn't due to a lack of information and different assumptions about using (or not using) the rules of the game. I do not want to give that impression again, so I'm going probably a bit overboard with with this disclaimer.
Anyways, you have it (Fate's Favored) listed as doubling luck bonuses, but it actually only increases them by +1. Yeah, most things only give a +1 bonus to begin with, but there are actually quite a few things that give more than that (the Faction Guide Dueling property and the spell Divine Favor when cast by anyone with a caster level of 6+ are two examples I know of off hand).
XD
As with the favored class points, that was a total mess up on my part. I was thinking of how it effectively doubled the luck bonus from my Stone of Good Luck.
Yeah, I saw that Monkey God bowed out. As for me, I will never take a clarification like the favored class points or me goofing up a trait as an offense. I just get tired of saying the same thing over and over again, and everyone assuming that I am saying completely else despite me trying to explain it repeatedly. For example, I still don't know why Fnord thought I was trying to stack multiple bonuses of the same kind. I wasn't. I was just trying to make an improved Wraps/Amulet combo that worked on all my attacks.
I have rings! :D
I actually prefer martial characters (at all levels), I've just experienced a lot of ridicule for it over the years as well, despite always having fun and sometimes dominating as well. So I often include "popular" opinions on matters when they come up to show I'm not oblivious to them.
I also approve of your current plan, and am glad that we can move on to other things. :D
If tumbler approved of it, I would love to have one or two rings forged by Negato (if you want to as well, I will never assume you will unless you volunteer the service. Crafting magic takes time, and Sir Orrin at least has only been around for so long, so only so many things can actually have been crafted). Maybe then Sir Orrin could finally afford some extra-dimensional living space in Validk's pocket home (and/or give Carolinus a bit better survivability).
But completely up to you and tumbler (if he's okay with some retroactive crafting) and everyone else of course (they may or may not be okay with that as well).
Ring of Evasion and Sustenance - 28750gp (25000 + (2500x1.5) = 28750 gp)
Carolinus wears a nose Ring of Sustenance - 2500gp
Cool. Mistakes happen, and interpretation can be a major road block, especially on the web / in text based mediums (actually, in every medium. Communication is a vile beast sometimes)! Perhaps it was my bow+arrow example that added to the confusion? *shrugs* What I find particularly frustrating is being outright ignored. I have some "fond" memories of a thread I was involved with in the website feedback forum a while ago. Arguments were being tossed around based on falsehoods, and my posts had progressed to "for the fifth time, it actually works like this...". That was mind-boggling-ly special. X_X
As long as tumbler is alright with it, I am gladly offering my assistance with forging rings. As for time, Nagato was technically the one who made the rings for him. She is 251-252 (I might go with 251 for the Celebi reference; that's awesome), so spar time isn't exactly hard for her to have.
Wait a sec, didn't Validk pick up forge ring?
Screw it, it doesn't matter much. Could've sworn I had Jake get his rings from him, though.
Speaking of Validk, though, where's Fnord? We gotta get this party rollin'.
Looks like he does. Well, I see no problem with two characters having it.
Course not. Just thought I saw it somewhere was all.
Yes, I have forge ring, staff, scrolls, wondrous items, and arms and armor. Duplication is fine by me, though I don't mind paying the feat tax so others dont have to.
I think the confusion is that of stacking the 'enhancement' bonus of +5 and the special property bonus of bane, holy, whatever.
Think of it like this:
Sir Orrin bought a +9 weapon. He decided to apply 5 points to attack/damage (the max), and the remaining four points to bane, holy, and widgit.
Since any magic item has it's value increase in a non-linear fashion, two +1 items are not the same cost as one +2 item.
I see it as the two items can overlap, given the proper clauses in the Body Wrap's language. Do you really think there's that much of a difference?
Also, how's the intro post for Val coming along?
Intro posted!!!
Question for tumblr and the group:
Most spells have verbal and somatic components.
The rules state that to cast a verbal component one must be able to speak in a strong voice. Somatic component says measured and precise movement.
Since this is pbp, and we have time to get into more color and background, descriptions of actions, etc. I like to try and work on my creative writing skills (which often suck).
Without getting into the metamagic feats of still and silent spell (which completely negates the issue), I'd like some thoughts on describing casting spells.
This something that is often forgotten or overlooked, if the caster has a hand free, and they aren't gagged, they cast the spell.
But what about when the caster wants to cast a spell discretely?
Can a caster use bluff, stealth, or sleight of hand to reduce the chances of a spell being noticed?
I'm asking as this came up in another pbp where I made a bluff check to discretely word a spell casting so as to not be so obvious. That GM gave everyone in the room a perception DC 0 roll to notice what he called my 'loud' spell casting and obvious hand waving.
Frequently as fluff, but also at other times, I'd like to know what the DM and group thinks of things like:
Using bluff to reduce the chance of identifying a verbal component (this is a move action), or sleight of hand to reduce the chance of identifying a somatic component (also a move action).
Both couldn't be done at the same time, though stealth could be used for the somatic component by standing behind someone/something, etc.
What would be the cost of crafting a +10 amulet? 200,000 gp?
Interesting set of ideas, Fnord. Seems to me like a spell should be more noticeable as it gets more powerful. For example, Mage Hand might be harder to detect, but it's pretty obvious if someone casts Meteor Swarm.
I think two things in the PFSRD relate to what you mean precisely. Though one of them is third party content from Super Genius Games, so I'm not sure how much you want that. The other, I think is some sort of prestige class. Not sure what it was called, but I can look for it. I think it's a class feature to hide spells, but that doesn't mean we couldn't use it as a basis for homebrew rules.
And I think that the math is right for that, CDL.
EDIT: Found the prestige class with secret casting. It's the Dawnflower Dissident/Dissident of Dawn class. Hope it helps.
Thanks for the link. Unfortunately that's a divine prc.
And they make it a class ability to do something you would almost think should be a standard use of the skills.
Going along with all this talk on customizing...
<grin>
What do peeps think about converting Secret Caster to a feat?
Also,
Validk doesn't have a familiar, he went with bonded item. The book is an intelligent spellbook. He does have a cohort (another doppelganger) that acts as something of a second set of eyes, close support body guard.
I know, why would a wizard need a body guard?
I just figured that an intelligent bonded item would be akin to a familiar. At least, that's how Jacob would think. Unlike those fancy wizards or Arcane bloodline sorcerers, Jake is a strong, independent sorcerer who don't need no bonded item.
Also, Fnord, if you're interested, there was a recent errata that stated that SLAs fulfilled prerequisites for prestige classes or feats. I don't know if the celestial template gives Daylight, but if it does, you just need the feats to qualify. Here's a thread that discusses the notion.
I'm cool with making it a feat, too.
Question for tumbler.
How are we going to have everything work with closing the gap? Should we assume we're starting from the same place? Is there really any other option than "charge" right now? I'm just not entirely sure what to do otherwise, other than maybe casting buffs beforehand.
Also, if I didn't make it clearer earlier in my post, Jake's flying using the Overland Flight spell he casts daily. Is there an ability to take a Run action whilst flying? If not, I'd be fine with Jake taking double move actions to keep up with Sir Orrin as best he can.
I'd assume it would be as the Fly spell, which states:
... The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, ...
So:
Double moves: Yes.
Charging: Yes.
Run actions: No.
...as for getting there, fly, run on land, dimension door/teleport, plead and beg to get a piggy-back ride on the benevolent dragon (who may eat you for the thought)...
As for Sir Orrin, given the distances, and how he is traveling (I'm thinking alternating 30 seconds of running with 30 seconds of doube moves so as not to wear Carolinus out) it will take him about 5 minutes to get to the edge of the storm, and another 18.5 minutes to travel the rest of the way (presuming the storm doesn't reduce my movement). That is based on traveling 2100' per minute (woo, Carolinus/Sir Orrin is averaging 24 miles per hour).
Still, that's 23.5 minutes for Sir Orrin to get to the beast, even with his head start. O_O
I'd save the buffs until we get closer... perhaps something to deal with the storm itself once you get to the violent edge, then the read buffs once you get closer to the beast (which if Sir Orrin does get there first will be evident by the (hopeful) sounds of battle raging).
EDIT: Fly speeds based on wings (not spells) are a different story though. I can't find anything specific on it, but I'd assume that a creature with wings (natural flight) could do a flying run, but that is just my opinion. tumbler will have to answer this specific situation.
Alright, never really had to deal with running and flying. Good to know.
I'm not sure about anyone else, but double moving on Overland Flight (if I'm right) gives me a speed of 16 miles per hour. Is it me, or does it seem most efficient to just use Greater Teleport to get everyone to the beast ASAP? That way, no muss or fuss.
Casting discreetly: I tend to still use a lot of 3.5 stuff for skill DC that isn't discussed in the current rules. I like for skills to be useful, I'm pretty sure in one of the magic books there were "additional skill uses" for this. I will take a look and see if they are reasonable. I would think that even if a spell is loud, you could do something to make a noise to cover your words or something,
Alright, never really had to deal with running and flying. Good to know.
I'm not sure about anyone else, but double moving on Overland Flight (if I'm right) gives me a speed of 16 miles per hour. Is it me, or does it seem most efficient to just use Greater Teleport to get everyone to the beast ASAP? That way, no muss or fuss.
You could fly over and drop into the storm. Teleport would certainly be fast and efficient.
Is it still possible for creatures with wings to run while flying? I don't see it anywhere in the monster rules.
nit-picky math time! Overland flight is 40' movement, double move = 80' per 6 seconds = 800 feet per minute =48000'/hour = just over 9 miles per hour.
Heh, Sir Orrin is fast on land... but can't compare to instant (aka: teleportation). The only issues are chance of going off course (with greater, there is a chance of it simply failing if your info is incorrect), and/or the chance that some temporal distortion is around the beast or caused by the storm as well, which could do terrible things to those trying to teleport through (not saying this with any certainty, just the kind of thing I would not rule out at this level of game). He's just not the type to sit idly by while stuff is happening, even if he's surrounded by people who can get places instantly. It just don't feel right! ;)
Yeah, that's a significant difference. I must've messed up with my math somehow, I don't have a calculator or phone at the moment.
But the point remains that there's a pretty significant speed difference. I just don't want to have Orrin go in without backup. So, off the top of my head, Jake's range of Dimension Door is 1520' with a CL of 28. Ergo, how many 4th level spell slots will I need to burn to keep up with ol' Ore? I need to get some scrap paper or something to this one...
We fly up, then teleport to a point above and in front of, he storm. Mis chance should be really low since we are teleporting to a point in the air that we can see.
Miss chance should be zero considering this is the Greater variant of teleport. If anything stops us from doing so, it won't be a miss chance.
Hurray for excel!
Well, if you had infinite DDoors, you would be traveling in small jumps at a rate of about 172.7 mph. So you'd catch up pretty quickly that way. On a smaller scale, Sir Orrin is averaging 252 feet per round, while you're going 1520 per round. So if Sir Orrin was going like this for 6 rounds, he'd still (almost exactly) be in range of one of your DDoors.
^_^
Well, if we do that, it must be asked: how strong is this storm?
Click on me for a link to Storm/Wind strength and effects
Sir Orrin is small. Carolinus is (as are most of us) medium. Anything higher than severe has the potential to cause problems (potentially unable for you to move, potential for Sir Orrin to get ripped out of his saddle and blown away)! If it indeed is a hurricane, then everyone save Katja in dragon form (or Nagato in some Huge or larger form) is in trouble.
Hurray for excel!
Well, if you had infinite DDoors, you would be traveling in small jumps at a rate of about 172.7 mph. So you'd catch up pretty quickly that way. On a smaller scale, Sir Orrin is averaging 252 feet per round, while you're going 1520 per round. So if Sir Orrin was going like this for 6 rounds, he'd still (almost exactly) be in range of one of your DDoors.
^_^
Math is fun!
Also, I'm curious on how fast Katja can fly. I think that the bonus to fly from the spell gives should help mitigate at least a bit of trouble with the wind.
Well, if we do that, it must be asked: how strong is this storm?
Click on me for a link to Storm/Wind strength and effects
)! If it indeed is a hurricane, then everyone save Katja in dragon form (or Nagato in some Huge or larger form) is in trouble.
It is indeed!
@tumbler and everyone: Before we officially jump into this battle, could we do one thing really quick?
Alright, aceDiamond proposed something to me in a PM, and after thinking about it, I think it is a good idea. As Validk pointed out, how about we formally allow the scaling of the Amulet of Mighty Fists and other weapons just because we are at the epic levels? A +10 Amulet costs 400,000 gp according to Sir Orrin's math, but crafting it is a reasonable 200,000, which I can do. My current plan of Wraps/Amulet/Greater Magic Fang costs about that much.
How about it? We have already houseruled a lot of other stuff. I think stronger weapons and such is very much inline with an epic game. Additionally, everyone seems to be happy with doing it.
CDL, I think that is the best plan. Lets make this final approval.
Katja has a listed fly speed of 250. While Carolinus can run faster, that is her normal fly movement, so her double move is 500, and if she's allowed to run while flying, it becomes 1000 (or 1250 with the Run feat).
Also, is Katja carrying Jacob in a claw, or did she toss him onto her back. What about Nagato and Validk... and Ralph? Are we going to go ahead and assume that he's a no show and go on without (maybe he refused to join Jacob here and that's why we've not heard Ralph speak, and don't have to worry about leaving him behind)?
While I'm fine with a house ruled +10 AoMF, the magic item GP limit was for the total market value (not the crafting value). I don't have a problem lifting this, but that is what we originally had in place. It wouldn't affect Sir Orrin as he is anyways. His most expensive item is his banner at 211000gp, and I don't think it will be getting any upgrades (I can't think of any I'd want anyways). EDIT: GM approved! Huzzah!
Oh! What about the question of retroactive Ring crafting via Nagato? Will you permit me to do that, or shall I just go forwards with the wealth I currently have?
It is indeed!Well, if we do that, it must be asked: how strong is this storm?
Click on me for a link to Storm/Wind strength and effects
)! If it indeed is a hurricane, then everyone save Katja in dragon form (or Nagato in some Huge or larger form) is in trouble.
Though, guys, don't forget that spells like Fly and Overland Flight give a bonus to the fly skill.
...and a Hurricane force storm imparts a -12 penalty to all fly checks. If you've invested in the fly skill, there may be a chance you never fail anyways (as 1's on skills are not auto-fails). Sir Orrin has no ranks, obviously, and will be making strength checks to hold on to Carolinus (with a 30 strength, and a Wind force STR DC or 15, he still has a 20% chance to fail and get blown away). Actually, because he's in a military saddle, that gives a +2 to checks to stay in the saddle (though it states Ride checks, so it may not apply. If it does, it reduces it to 10% chance to get blown off). Carolinus has a +28 to his Fly skill (fly bonus already included), but the -12 brings him down to a +16. The DC is 25, so he also has a 40% chance to get blown away.
For Sir Orrin/Carolinus, a ground approach is still safer (as being on the ground required only the Str check, as we both have a 30 str). Though if we all huge Katja like our lives depended on it (it very well may), then it's just a DC15 str check for us to hang on. Of course, not all of us have that high of a strength. :/
The ring crafting is fine. It isn't too retroactive since we've barely started.
This will be the perfect chance to break out my Huge Air Elemental form. No stat penalties, +6 to Dex, and 120 feet perfect flight speed!
Oh, would Sir Orrin and Carolinus like Air Walk? Sir Orrin in case he falls off, and Carolinus so he can actually "walk" if necessary.
Also, would a Control Winds be useful here? Nagato could just render them (the ones closest to us anyway) as calm as possible.
While I appreciate the offer, I am leery of Air Walk(ing) into a hurricane for this reason:
A strong wind (21+ miles per hour) can push the subject along or hold it back. At the end of a creature's turn each round, the wind blows the air walker 5 feet for each 5 miles per hour of wind speed. The creature may be subject to additional penalties in exceptionally strong or turbulent winds, such as loss of control over movement or physical damage from being buffeted about.
This here is a hurricane class storm, meaning wind speeds between 75 and 174 mph. Meaning 15 to 34 feet of being pushed backwards every round.
Though I may accept it anyways for Sir Orrin, just as a safety measure. Carolinus can Fly at will though, so he is fine (other than the wind, of course). ...Though I guess that the Air Walk is still better then the fly spell, as it states what happens in high winds (simply getting pushed back whit no damage), while the Fly spell still follows the Win rules for getting blown away (and taking damage from it). Though that last line tells me it is up to the GM, and in this storm we may take damage and lose control anyways. XP
So yeah, I've reconsidered. If you're willing to include Air Walk among our buffs, I will gladly accept it. Carolinus' land speed is 60 (90 with haste), so he's more than able to compensate for the backwards push of the wind. ^_^
I think that control winds does not move.
If we got you to the center or where the beast is (assuming there is no eye of the storm), then successfully casting it there would help greatly, I think.
EDIT: actually, if there is no calm eye of the storm where the beast is, this may be the only way to fight it without getting battered and blown all over the place. The trick then would be keeping the beast in the radius of calm, or multiple castings as it moves.
EDIT 2: oh gods I'm glad I caught that typo while still within the 1 hour edit limit! Telling Jacob while being carried in Katja's claws "Goon on ya" would be cause to become a dragon snack! Though if Jacob is riding Katja instead, then it would be a good joke to maybe keep. ^_^
I think that control winds does not move.
Actually, that's not how I see it.
Range 2 miles
Area 2-mile-radius circle, centered on you; see text
Duration 4d12 hours; see text
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Sounds to me like the effect follows the caster in a 2-mile radius. But that's just the way I read it. I could be wrong.
Also, "goon on ya" is a wonderful phrase and we'd be remiss were we not to use it in the future.
Yeah, that's what I thought, but then there was the bit about how it didn't move with a ship. Maybe it only moves at the caster's movement.
I've not seen that errata, but I just checked the d20pfsrd page. Doesn't mention anything about ships there.
It is in the skull and shackles player guide. I only know because I am running it.
Alright, I just didn't know. Your call, man.
It seems fair that it moves with the caster but only at their movement rate, not if being carried or on a vehicle faster than their move.
Don't forget the difference between Control Weather and Control Winds. CWinds may be useful in the fight as it's a standard action casting time vs CWeather's 10 minutes. Though CWinds, I think, is stationary (it makes no mention of being centered on the caster despite seeming to emanate from him).
May I suggest that Katja use Control Winds? She can cast it as an unlimited spell-like ability.
To be honest, I'm not afraid of the winds. If this is supposed to be what caused someone want to create Storm of Vengeance, it's the damage we start taking when we hit that wall that's getting me antsy.
The wind is what will prevent you from ever being able to move around of your own free will or even try to escape the possible elemental damage of the storm itself. The wind is the guy holding you down while the other huge guy punches you in the gut. If the wind blows you away, you take damage. You lose control if flying and get knocked prone when on the ground. For spell casting that is both damage and violent motion for concentration. For someone like Sir Orrin, that also means I can't charge or even attack, potentially completely negating my ability to do anything other than provide banner buffs. Pure damage won't do this unless it knocks Sir Orrin out.
And I hope we want Sir Orrin to be able to charge. Minimum 196 damage on a charge attack. Even with DR 15/epic, Regeneration 40, and 525 HP (these are the stats of a Tarrasque) and rolling minimum damage every time, it will be deep into the negatives on the 4th attack. EDIT: (this does not include things like Risky Striker, Challenge, or Bane, which each increase the minimum damage considerably ... hehehe, if all of those are active, it will be over a hundred into the negatives on the second hit)
Getting blown away by the wind means I most likely couldn't even try (due to either being prone or being to far away from the blow back while flying). Getting damaged does not stop me from trying though. Sir Orrin can take damage and keep on going. However, while Sir Orrin shows no fear, I am afraid of the wind. >_<
Just saying: sometimes it's the small things that we ignore that end up causing our downfall.
Well, you've currently got a 50/50 shot at not being blown away via Strength check. And if Katja can control these winds, we may not need to deal with that. In fact, if Control Weather works the way we intend, we may be able to ward off the storm walls until we actually get to the beast.
Pirate, how would you feel if Jacob made Carolinus an elemental or a dragon? I was thinking of ways to use Polymorph Any Object to buff the party and since it seems like Katja, Jake, Carolinus and Sir Orrin are so close, this could be a good way to go about things. Especially since the buff would last a good half an hour or so.