Based on BAB (+18 currently), she would get a total of four attacks, and the Wraps apply to four attacks. If Nagato was a straight MoMS monk, I totally could live with using the Body Wraps. However, Hasted Dire Tiger Nagato gets six attacks when she pounces. If I roll bad on the first four attacks, I am left with two nerfed ones that get a lot slashed off because of DR.
Since this is causing such a great stir for some reason, I am currently researching rules friendly alternatives for bypassing DR.
Question. If we are allowing dragon and doppleganger PCs and templates on humanoid races, what exactly is with all the stir with me paying extra to have a +10 equivalent (+5 enhancement with some weapon properties) attack?
I just was curious why the body wraps wouldn't work. I'm fine with the +10 as long as it all gets paid for as the proper progression allows. Frankly, I'm not sure why the limit is only up to +5 when any forged weapon can get up to +10.
I have no idea either. You think they would have fixed that ages ago. Anyway, the issues with using the proper progression is that there really isn't anyway explicitly written; it caps at +5 naturally. If we go by Pirate's guidelines, it basically breaks the bank for me, and we have a character creation rule that disallows spending so much money on one item.
If anyone has any other ideas, please let me know. However, I consider the issue settled, and I have explained my reasoning several times. The DM said my plan was okay too. Considering we have one player playing a silver dragon, I don't see how this is so controversial.
In short,
1) Nagato's weapons are her natural attacks/unarmed strikes.
2) Amulet 1 enhances them to a +5 weapon.
3) Amulet 2 gives them +5 equivalent of special weapons properties.
4) Now Nagato has a +10 (+5 enhancement with +5 worth of special weapons properties) attack like Sir Orrin and Ralph.
CDL, don't take this personally. I don't recall seeing you or your character on the first two threads where we all reviewed each other's characters and discussed these types of issues in depth already.
As for the doppelganger and dragon races, playing a monster race was part of the core allowances for this game. Quite frankly, doppelganger gimps me as a wizard. I'm losing caster levels with that option.
We've also had a lot of talks about balance issues as well.
The difference between your two stacking AMF's and Sir Orrin and Ralph's weapon is they paid about twice what you did.
As someone else mentioned, taking AMF at +5, and the body wrap at +1 and bane, holy, guided. Does look like it would work within the given rules. The +1 from the body wrap would not stack, but a limited number of times per day the body wrap would enhance the AMF.
It does look like you are trying to stack monk unarmed attacks with druid natural attacks. I have not found anything that allows these to stack, AMF does not apply to natural attacks, natural attacks can not benefit from monk flurry, etc. Unarmed attacks are not equal to natural attacks.
As for your character sheet, I did notice a few items to address:
Very nicely put together character sheet. Some well thought out synergies in there.
You have two classes, but 25 favored class options, how are you getting the other 2 pts, assuming druid is your favored class?
Bracers of armor and mage armor don't stack. You have mage armor listed as an on-going spell.
This one is probably just fluff, age tables list venerable as twice the adult age. For a Samsaran this would be 120 years. Maximum age is listed as several d10's or d20's after that. The greatest I found was 5d20 for a halfling, with the average looking like 2-3 d20. At 252 years of age, Nagato is well beyond these limits. Timeless Body does not give ageless, a character still dies at max age.
Since I've had very little to do with vetting characters, I don't have any problem with people questioning my decisions. I stepped in after a lot of the work was already done, so we should respect that process.
I am basing my thinking that you can have two amulets (one slot less) on the fact that you can have magic armor that gives a +5 and bracers that grant special qualities and those stack. I guess that is not exactly the same.
A +10 weapon costs 100,000. A + 5 amulet of mighty fists costs 100,000. Another one at double cost is 200,000 more. Is that right?
Two +5 amulets should cost that, yeah, but the pricing system works quadratically. Then there's also the consideration that the example you used about the magic armor and Bracers of Armor don't stack, as it says on the Bracers page
If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.
Like I said, I've got nothing against the +10 enhancement houserule, but it's a significant chunk of change to get the price that high. Though, if it's considered that you're always considered armed and that you have people who are willing to craft items for you at two-thirds the price does sweeten that idea.
The first question is probably if he is trying to get unarmed attack applied to natural attacks.
A monk/druid doesn't stack that way.
As to my dragon, I made her with just a dragon. No templates, no classes. Just a straight dragon. This keeps it the most reasonable for everyone involved.
Always wanted to ride a dragon...
Is this going to be one of those games?
Also, does someone else want to ask Nagato to use Gate? Because I'm ready to ask, I just don't want to hog the screentime in the gameplay thread. Would be nice to advance the attack on the Storm.
I will get a post up soon about getting Validk in soon. Got to get home first.
@aceDiamond: In my opinion, Jacob hogging the screen time does not matter in this situation. He should be the guy to ask; he lives with Validk on the demiplane and thus would know where Nagato should open it.
@Validk: Don't worry about it. I like friendly debates.
As for cost, I am paying more than Sir Orrin. According to Sir Orrin's sheet, he paid 126,760 gp for his +5 Impervious, Dueling, Glorious, Courageous Adamantine Lance. Meanwhile, everyone seems to be forgetting I am doubling the cost of one of the Amulets to make it slotless.
I have Craft Wondrous Item, so I an Amulet is 50,000 gp for me.
Amulet 1 is thus 50,000 gp. However, Amulet 2 is slotless, so 50,000 gp * 2 = 100,000 gp.
50,000 + 100,000 = 150,000 gp.
150,000 > 126,760
So I am paying more than Sir Orrin for basically a +10 attack.
I am only equating natural attacks and unarmed strikes for the purpose of ehnancements. That is explictly stated in the rules. The Amulet of Mighty Fists DO apply to Natural Attacks AND Unarmed Strikes. I do not have Flurry of Blows due to the MoMS Archetype, so that is not an issue.
Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks. See Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities for a list of abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses. An amulet of mighty fists cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5. An amulet of mighty fists does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability.
Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
Usually a monk's unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
Good catch on the favored class. That is just an error on my part.
Mage Armor is from my cohort Mira. Nagato also has Miracle to the do the job like with her Permanenting certain spells.
According the the PRD, Samsarans hit Venerable at age 250. I figure Nagato could reasonable live another two years past that.
As for my comments on dragons and dopplegangers, fair enough. I will concede there as everyone playing a monster race has done a great job balance wise.
As for stacking the Body Wrap with the Amulet, well, the Body Wrap is only limited to a certain number of attacks per round. That is alright most of the time, but it stinks to lose that when I am pouncing something while Hasted. If it was per day, that item wouldn't be worth the the paper/bandwidth describing it.
My point is that my amulets are giving the unarmed strikes/natural attacks completely different bells and whistles. Like the Body Wrap/Amulet combo, one gives the enhancement bonus, and one gives the weapon properties. Because the Amulet does not need an enhancement bonus, it can be strictly +5 worth of properties. Enhancement bonuses do not stack, but I am not trying to stack enhancement bonuses. I am adding weapon properties to an enhancement bonus. I have yet to find anything in the rules saying that this cannot be done, and based on the Body Wrap/Amulet combo, it seems that it can be done. I just want it so that I lose half the power behind my attacks after throwing X many out.
By the way, does anyone want be to contact Gobo?
I guess that all does make sense. Ideally, I'd say that the extra 50K for the +10 enhancement bonus AMF would make everything even, but I can see how it wouldn't be great. I just feel that the AMF works like the Bracers of Armor, as the highest enhancement bonus determines which effects are active. But that's just my two cents.
As far as I know, Mage Armor can't become Permanent. Except with DM fiat.
I've not seen that chart before, at least not on d20pfsrd. Thanks for the resource. Though, doesn't the DM roll to see when someone's max age is? I dunno, maybe that's just me. For fluff purposes, I'd say 251 just to be safe. And because that's the pokedex number for Celebi. I know, I know, but the lore does say that it's a guardian over the forests. So while I am still a giant ten year old, apparently, it does have a little merit.
And lastly, if Validk and Jacob are magic roommates, I guess that does make more sense. I just feel bad for posting so often, like I'm taking away from other people's time to shine. I just like jumping in on something as new content becomes available, as anyone who's even perused any of our threads has probably assumed by now.
I also have no idea how to contact him. Sent him a PM a little while ago and haven't heard back.
Thanks for the responses!
I forget to go look at the prd and usually find d20pfsrd easier to navigate.
Forgot about that tidbit on the monk. I had just recently gone through a bunch of unarmed/natural attack issues in another game.
If the unarmed attack counts as a manufactured weapon, why not enchant the fists as weapons? Free's up your neck slot.
If the unarmed attack counts as a manufactured weapon, why not enchant the fists as weapons? Free's up your neck slot.
You can do that? Wow, I wish I knew, I could've given a barbarian in my last big game some vorpal teeth.
As far as I know, Mage Armor can't become Permanent. Except with DM fiat.
Never said the Mage Armor was permanent. I was just saying how I get in on my character. It is either from Nagato's sorcerer cohort, or she could do the job herself with Miracle. I was also mentioning how she can Permanent her own spells via Miracle as well in case anyone was wondering about that. :)
If the unarmed attack counts as a manufactured weapon, why not enchant the fists as weapons? Free's up your neck slot.You can do that? Wow, I wish I knew, I could've given a barbarian in my last big game some vorpal teeth.
That would be an awesome solution, but I am not sure if a monk can have his fists enchanted.
Before you do that with the Barbarian, make sure that you can actually do that. The monk's unarmed strike has a specific clause that lets it be treated as a manufactured weapon. Also, I think Vorpal can only be added to slashing weapons.
I haven't played any characters with a bite attack, nor a character with DR that was ever explicitly bitten, so I don't know about what kind of damage it does specifically. I wanted to believe slashing, though.
Anyways, as I read that, yes, a monk can enhance his unarmed strikes as they were natural weapons. Gonna need to hear back from tumbler to confirm, but that's just my opinion.
Mage armor is one of those tricky issues with magic item creation.
Here's the example:
The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item. If you discover a loophole that allows an item to have an ability for a much lower price than is given for a comparable item, the GM should require using the price of the item, as that is the standard cost for such an effect. Most of these loopholes stem from trying to get unlimited uses per day of a spell effect from the "command word" or "use-activated or continuous" lines of Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.
Example: Patrick's wizard wants to create bracers with a continuous mage armor ability, granting the wearer a +4 armor bonus to AC. The formula indicates this would cost 2,000 gp (spell level 1, caster level 1). Jessica reminds him that bracers of armor +4 are priced at 16,000 gp and Patrick's bracers should have that price as well. Patrick agrees, and because he only has 2,000 gp to spend, he decides to spend 1,000 gp of that to craft bracers of armor +1 using the standard bracer prices.
The idea is that I still have an armor bonus when I wildshape. The bracers currently override the mage armor. When I wildshape into a non-humanoid (I can wildshape into giants due to my mask), the bracers go inert, but the mage armor then kicks in. The bracers are just normal bracers.
Doesn't really matter where the mage armor is coming from on Naturo, it doesn't stack with bracers of armor.
And if you are wanting to have your bracers have special abilities instead of enhancement bonus and stack the mage armor with it (like with multiple AMF's), then I will be asking to have a dagger in my bag that gives a bonus to the sword I'm swinging.
Fnord, I get where CDL is coming from. His bracers don't give special abilities. It's just a straight up Bracers of Armor +8.
That gives a +8 Armor bonus to his AC.
His cohort casts Mage Armor on him daily. This gives a +4 Armor bonus to his AC.
Since the Bracers have the greater bonus, they override, but do not dispel, the Mage Armor, giving him a total of +8 Armor bonus to his AC.
According to CDL, when Nagato uses Wild Shape, she loses the +8 Armor bonus to AC from the Bracers. However, she still had the +4 Armor bonus from Mage Armor from earlier, it simply wasn't active as it wasn't the highest armor bonus to AC. Now that it is the only Armor bonus that Nagato gets, it becomes relevant, giving a +4 Armor bonus to AC.
The idea isn't that Mage Armor stacks, as the armor bonus is never above +8. It's just that the Mage Armor still exists and only becomes relevant when the Bracers aren't in the picture.
Fnord, I get where CDL is coming from. His bracers don't give special abilities. It's just a straight up Bracers of Armor +8.
That gives a +8 Armor bonus to his AC.
His cohort casts Mage Armor on him daily. This gives a +4 Armor bonus to his AC.
Since the Bracers have the greater bonus, they override, but do not dispel, the Mage Armor, giving him a total of +8 Armor bonus to his AC.
According to CDL, when Nagato uses Wild Shape, she loses the +8 Armor bonus to AC from the Bracers. However, she still had the +4 Armor bonus from Mage Armor from earlier, it simply wasn't active as it wasn't the highest armor bonus to AC. Now that it is the only Armor bonus that Nagato gets, it becomes relevant, giving a +4 Armor bonus to AC.
The idea isn't that Mage Armor stacks, as the armor bonus is never above +8. It's just that the Mage Armor still exists and only becomes relevant when the Bracers aren't in the picture.
This. :)
If you could total your gear, that would help too. Note that your cohort's gear comes from your total. And, they can't craft gear for you at 50%.
It was decided that under the premise of cooperative efforts, other player's characters would provide crafted gear at 75% of retail.
If you could total your gear, that would help too. Note that your cohort's gear comes from your total. And, they can't craft gear for you at 50%.
It was decided that under the premise of cooperative efforts, other player's characters would provide crafted gear at 75% of retail.
I know. Take a look at Mira's feats, and you will notice that there are no crafting ones. I will total everything when finished with her, but I am keeping a spread sheet. I just want to know if I can keep the two amulets as is now that everything has been explained about them.
So I've been doing some research and found this
According to this, the amulet of mighty fists is actually the same cost as a weapon. Has anything countermanded this?
Based on that, what if we just raise the caps on amulets (to +10), and weapons (to +15).
Then we have no weird doubling of amulets and create no issues for doubling slotless items.
Also, sorry about the armor thing. Maybe that was an alpha or beta rule or something. I know a character I GM'd exploited that in the past.
I guess we just need tumbler to make a ruling about that, then. Until that, we can progress the story to just before the confrontation on our own accord.
EDIT: Well, I guess that got answered fast. That enhancement bonus almost makes a guy want a higher enchanted weapon. Or a strength modifier to use it.
Remember, guys and gals, with this new rule, DR/epic might be able to be surpassed if tumbler allows +6 enhancement bonuses.
That blog post is what my previously posted expanded AoMF costs are based on. An AoMF is the same cost as 2 weapons of the same enhancement value combined. This is because it is most used by monks, and it applies to all of a monks unarmed attacks (which when they Flurry is mechanically similar to TWF with several notable exceptions). I was deeply invested in/involved with the many monk threads that lead up to this blog post and errata. One of the points that the devs said kept them leery of reducing it's price is that its use with druids, animal companions, and summoners/eidolons risk becoming too good as they get it on all their natural attacks (many of which can have significantly more than 2), which would help to increase the gap in power between martials and casters.
Expanding the normal weapon table, we get the following costs:
- +10 = 200000gp
- +11 = 242000gp
- +12 = 288000gp
- +13 = 338000gp
- +14 = 392000gp
- +15 = 450000gp
I guess you would also want to say that a +15 weapon can only have a +10 enhancement bonus?
I was thinking of having Jacob have a spell, but the spell creation rules seem very intense to me. And very subject to DM fiat. Sorry about the stuff, CDL, I'm sure that the body wraps will still work pretty well.
Actually, how about I just get an magic item that mimics the effects of the body wraps/amulet for enhancement bonuses only, let it apply to all my attacks, give it a new name, and put it on a different body slot? If everyone is perfectly alright with the wraps/amulet combo, what is wrong with that?
As long as the numbers add up, it's all fine by me.
That works for me.
Awesome! Should I price it like the Amulet of Mighty Fists or the Body Wraps of Mighty Strikes? I only need +5 total unless we are going with epic weapons. Then I might snag a +6.
I'd say the Amulet should be on constant. It seems like that'd be the better way to go, what with overcoming DR.
Amulet.
Alright, I just called the new item Anklets of Mighty Feet and put them on Nagato's feet slot. It is just a straight +5 enhancement bonus to her attacks. Then I have a normal Amulet of Mighty Fists that adds properties. As such, I have +10 total attacks like Sir Orrin and Ralph.
Anyway, I just wanted to thank everyone for working with me. I will now open the Gate and get Validk in ASAP.
Gate is up. Now the party begins.
I guess I just can't understand why you are trying to circumvent the stacking rules for what is effectively your weapons.
If you are costing it similarly to any other weapon that is +10, why are oyu still insisting on it being two items?
Let's see...
1) The Amulet caps at +5 total and scaling it further costs a lot of money, which I do not have.
2) The Wraps/Amulet combo (two items together) works and gives similar results for an effective +10 combo.
3) As I have said repeatedly, enhancement bonuses are completely separate from special weapons properties. This is not like stacking multiple bonuses of the same type together. This is just creating something similar to the completely legal Wraps/Amulet combo that applies to all my attacks instead of wearing off after four.
The Wrap/Amulet combo seems legit, and was indeed deemed legal by tumbler's fiat. It's not even that every attack gets augmented by the wrap, anyways.
Anyway, I hope that Jacob wasn't too abrasive on Validk. If I had made it so that the two of them were starting together, I would've had their first interaction be less grating on Val. But the story does call for severe urgency at this event.
Alright, well seeing that we have been debating the matter to death for an entire day and I always seem to be stepping on people's toes, here is what I will do to stay true to the rules.
1) I get a normal Holy Guided Ghost Touch Bane (Evil Outsider) Amulet of Mighty Fists.
2) I get a +5 Body Wraps of Mighty Strikes for DR purposes and Vital Strike as much as possible.
3) I Permanent some Greater Magic Fangs as backup for when the wraps fall off. They won't bypass DR, but they will certainly help soften the lose.
Sound fair?
I am just tired of arguing, and I feel that it is taking the fun out of what could be a great game. Since the above is all rule friendly, let's just move on with the story, shall we?
After thinking about it some more, I can see the issue with what I was trying to do. Sir Orrin and Ralph probably get fewer attacks overall than Nagato, so each one needs to count.
i think that makes my point, the body wrap is cheaper because it's limited use.
Sounds like what you are saying is that because you dont have much money (or spent it elsewhere) you should get to stack the bonuses differently than sir orrin.
I'm sure sir orrin would love to have a lance at 50,000 with a +5, and a broach that enhances that lance for another 50,000 in his pocket. Instead of the 162,000 base price for a +9 weapon.
If you're saying that as a slotless item your actually paying more than sir orrin, then why are you insisting on two items?
We've already had an agreement that it makes more sense to let an AMF scale up because we are epic.
Sir Orrin wasn't paying full-price, though. As per the character creation rules, Jacob (who has Craft Magic Weapons and Armor) crafted the magic on his lance at a 75% rate, so Sir Orrin only paid around 125,000 gp for a +10 weapon.
As said earlier, the slotless amulet was 100,000 gp. The slotted one was 50,000 gp. Ultimately, that was more than what Sir Orrin paid because Jacob lowered his lance cost.
I insisted on two items because we had never agreed to increase the cap at that time, and the wraps/amulet combo was already an example of two items working together for the same purpose.
I agree with increasing the Amulet cap, but no guidelines were ever set on that other than those Pirate recommended, which comes right into conflict with the "no item greater than 250,000 gp" clause.
Just to clarify, my lance is only a +9 weapon, not +10.
And yes, Sir Orrin will almost always be making (or at least trying to make) only a single attack a round. I have no problems with you building your character to be awesome, but simply for some perspective I will give a comparison between Sir Orrin on a multi-attack full attack vs Negato.
On your sheet I see Negato has a basic unarmed strike in half-elf form of +38 to hit, doing 1d8+20 damage, and getting 4 attacks a round.
Sir Orrin when making a full attack will have to use a sword instead of his lance, which is a +36 to hit, doing only 1d10+12 damage, also only getting 4 attack a round.
~Advantage: Negato. On a full attack you will hit more often and for more.
Sir Orrin has a crap tonne of circumstantial bonuses against specific foes only, giving small bonuses to both hit and to damage.
Negato can Wildshape into powerful forms to give more attacks and higher base damage dice for all foes.
~Advantage: depends on the situation, I'll call this one even (though some may argue the advantage is for Negato as well)
Sir Orrin's primary tactic is to challenge and charge with his lance, gaining a stupid bonus to hit and to damage (minimum damage is around 200), becoming a once per round melee version of a single target save of die spell.
Negato is a full caster with access to up to 11th level spells.
~Advantage: Negato (barring a marathon of combat with no time to rest ever, then the advantage becomes even and maybe eventually shifts to Sir Orrin).
I'm obviously missing a lot, but that was just a general and quick comparison based on what little bit I know.
I've been staying out of the discussion for the most part except where I can give facts and clarifications (such as how the value formula expands beyond the normal limits). I actually don't have any problems with the intent or with having multiple characters being able to do well in the same area. We all want to be the best that we can be. And yes, I did choose to play an almost completely martial character in a high level game. There will be challenges, and I accept them. For me, that's part of the fun. But if part of anyone's concern is "stepping" too much on other peoples toes", it should be mentioned that (even though some people on the internet already assume that all non-casters are obsolete past a certain point and that casters can be better martials than martials while still being super awesome because they are casters as well) bending the rules too much in this way can easily do just that.
On the other hand - especially if Ralph ends up being a no-show - I fully welcome having another character capable in melee (which you already are... your full attacks are better than my full attacks, and your AC is just as high as mine as well), and support making you as tough and effective in melee as possible. Otherwise, Sir Orrin could quickly find himself getting curb-stomped into oblivion. o_o;;
On a completely different note: if anyone should notice any errors on my sheet, please let me know. I try to be as accurate as possible, but I'm also only human and make mistakes. I can take it, really.
On that note though, I've noticed a minor error on Negato's sheet regarding the Fate's Favored trait. Please note that this is not me trying to beat up on you or anything like that. I really do not want to give you that impression. I simply value accuracy and the rules that make up this game. I have not actually gone in depth into anyones character yet (and probably wont unless asked to), but have skimmed them all. One person already left during the original recruitment phase because he thought he was being attacked after asking a question for advice when all we wanted to do was help give that advice but couldn't due to a lack of information and different assumptions about using (or not using) the rules of the game. I do not want to give that impression again, so I'm going probably a bit overboard with with this disclaimer.
Anyways, you have it (Fate's Favored) listed as doubling luck bonuses, but it actually only increases them by +1. Yeah, most things only give a +1 bonus to begin with, but there are actually quite a few things that give more than that (the Faction Guide Dueling property and the spell Divine Favor when cast by anyone with a caster level of 6+ are two examples I know of off hand).