This is the OOC thread. Welcome!
Please post in the IC - I'll start up the adventure proper when everone has posted there.
Sorry you said report to OOC and then from here to IC.
Howdy all! I'll get a proper post up when I get home. I teach during the day and can't use the network for non work things, so I'm on mobile now.
Hey there! Thanks for the invite!
Made some last minute changes to my character sheet and decided to go for a rather different avatar photo. (The old one was too flamboyant, even though I liked the fact that it had built-in spectacles.) Will post in the thread shortly.
Yeah I'm still trying to figure out which picture I want.
Always the hardest part.
Changes I made:
Had a missing feat, so I added Improved Initiative.
Replaced Comprehend Languages with Expeditious Retreat.
Replaced Identify with Feather Fall.
Changes so far are completely acceptable.
Perception
Z:
IF:
IA:
Y:
B:
T:
Oooh:
Z:
IF:
IA:
Y:
B:
T:
E:
All squares on this map are easily passable, with the exception of the actual walls.
The underbrush is dense enough to fascilitate stealth checks (although hiding while someone is watching you is not possible), but not thick enough to provide difficult terrain or concealment.
Yulai gets hit once for 6 Damage, down to 42. (our FF AC is 17 on the ox with a shield). Updated the alias to put useful stats in the byline, didn't realize it hadn't been saved there already.
Iris doesn't know about the "wolves".
Just a couple questions here:
@Yulai: How humanoid / how fox-like is she in her standard shape? I'm just trying to figure if Bran would even know the difference or not.
@Red DM of Doom: The Strangler Brawler happens to remove the Improved Unarmed Strike ability (a pre-requisite for it's Grapple Tree); do you know if that is intended or not? There were talks about it supposedly replacing Brawler's Strike; though this is unsubstantiated.
I can see. That's a bit silly. Let's say it removes every part of the Unarmed Strike class feature, with the exception of Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.
@Bran - I'm flavoring Yulai's human form as what she thinks of as her natural form. She grew up in a human community, she was born in her human shape since her mother was in human shape, she grew up learning to be human first. I tried to reflect this in her choices throughout, so she speaks flawless Varisian/Common/Elven/Senzar but lost the foxlike agility.
Meanwhile to give her an explanation, her oracle vmc curse is wrecking mysticism, and one day Yuki the talking fox showed up to explain that she had a great and glorious life ahead of her as a paladin. As a result she's a bit dubious about embracing the magical fox idea since the usually end up with her doing something bravely stupid and nearly dying. She probably wouldn't have ended up an adventurer at all but she was in the wrong place at the right time or if you prefer she adores Yuki and wouldn't want to disappoint him even if he's a bit stuffy.
By this point she's a seasoned adventurer, and made some peace with being a kitsune, but if you asked her point blank and put her on the spot "What Are You?" she'd tell you "human" and mean it. She's just an interesting human.
Long term there's probably some kitsune somewhere that will eventually come along and convince her she's a fox too, but that won't be during this adventure so I'm not worrying about it too much because she's young yet.
Anyways, that's where I think of her, in terms of mechanics her human form is stupidly good for level 4. She gets +17 on disguise as a human, and stays in that form 99% of the time since biting things is pretty inefficient compared to shooting them with a bow and the only thing she loses by being a human
This entire time I thought Hellhounds were Religion instead of Planar.
Erm. That's a mistake lol.
@Red: I'm assuming H represents Hellhounds whereas the R are the Hobgoblin Humanoids correct?
@Yulai: Alrighty then, just wanted to see if Bran could tell the difference, but he would never actually be able to beat that as you can Take-20 with Disguise! Now I don't feel silly that he called you Human. Will be interesting to delve into what it means to be 'human' with you, as Bran himself was treated like a piece of meat and a weapon his whole early life.
Cheers and thanks for the response :)
This entire time I thought Hellhounds were Religion instead of Planar.
Erm. That's a mistake lol.@Red: I'm assuming H represents Hellhounds whereas the R are the Hobgoblin Humanoids correct?
@Yulai: Alrighty then, just wanted to see if Bran could tell the difference, but he would never actually be able to beat that as you can Take-20 with Disguise! Now I don't feel silly that he called you Human. Will be interesting to delve into what it means to be 'human' with you, as Bran himself was treated like a piece of meat and a weapon his whole early life.
Cheers and thanks for the response :)
Religion is for undead. Thematically it's an easy mistake to make though, what with both deities and the planes being closely tied to alignment. It's not hard to see how you could mix them up conceptually.
H are hellhounds, R are normal hobgoblins, yes.
I did not think through this whole ox riding + familiar thing in combat.
I have no idea if I did the right checks for ride there but I think I have to make two each round - combat and guide. If someone knows the RAW for riding cold please correct me when I get stuff wrong, I haven't done mounted combat in years. The plan was to get off the ox to fire arrows at things, but that doesn't work when ambushed.
Best laid plans, surviving contact with the enemy since...yeah
Slide out of the saddle and use the ox as a shield of sorts. ;)
Quick rules question: if Tal moves through Bran's square, does that movement provoke AOOs from adjacent enemies or does it not due to soft cover? My understanding is that it would not provoke because of cover, but I'm fine with whatever ruling on this question.
*Edit* - I changed my mind. After looking over the rules again, I think Bran wouldn't give me soft cover since soft cover only applies to ranged attacks (and possibly reach attacks that use ranged attack rules).
I did not think through this whole ox riding + familiar thing in combat.
I have no idea if I did the right checks for ride there but I think I have to make two each round - combat and guide. If someone knows the RAW for riding cold please correct me when I get stuff wrong, I haven't done mounted combat in years. The plan was to get off the ox to fire arrows at things, but that doesn't work when ambushed.
Best laid plans, surviving contact with the enemy since...yeah
Ride simplified:
If you plan on using both hands, you need a DC 5 ride check to 'guide with knees'. It's a free action, but if you fail you need a hand on the rains.
Is the ox combat trained?
If yes: You need to do a DC 10 check as a free action to 'fight with combat trained mount'. If you fail, the mount cannot attack(only move).
If no: You need to do a DC 20 'Control Mount in Battle' check as a move action. If this fails, you can do nothing else this turn.
...
You can also chose to dismount as a move action. If you do this at the start of your turn, you can ignore all the above.
If you make a dc 20 ride check, you can dismount as a free action instead of a move.
As for your fox... Being a tiny quadruped, It can't really *ride* the ox in the same sense that a medium creature can. It can use Handle Animal while sitting on its back, though. (that's generally a move action for each command, DC 10 if the ox knows the trick)
Quick rules question: if Tal moves through Bran's square, does that movement provoke AOOs from adjacent enemies or does it not due to soft cover? My understanding is that it would not provoke because of cover, but I'm fine with whatever ruling on this question.*Edit* - I changed my mind. After looking over the rules again, I think Bran wouldn't give me soft cover since soft cover only applies to ranged attacks (and possibly reach attacks that use ranged attack rules).
Also I think it's debateable if you get soft cover for being in the same square as an ally - i think it's only if you're actually *behind* the ally.
Just parsing the round here, a lot of stuff to keep track of:
Does Yulai's Ride bonus include her armor check penalty, btw? It says +8, but that might be 4 ranks +3 prof +4 dex = +11, and then -3 from kikko armor, and not counting the shield because she's usually using her bow?
Anyway, if ACP is included, she succeeds on guiding with knees but fails to Fight with Combat Trained Mount, if ACP is not included in the +8, then she fails at both.
The only difference is whether she keeps her shield bonus, really.
Her smite hits, and deals damage.
Bran hits, no crit though. The hobgoblin is still standing.
R1 wDC14: - Success!
Isawa kills the one Bran hit, and trips both the others. In other news, which spells did you pick with Mystic Past Life, Magical Lineage and Wayang Spell Hunter? It doesn't say on your sheet.
Hi GM! Past Life is Color Spray, Jolt, Magic Missile, Mirror Image, Ray of Frost, and the traits are using Magic Missile. The idea is that (together with Spontaneous Metafocus) I can use the Toppling Magic Missile "at will" :) I apologize - It looks like Hero Lab doesn't put it all on the output sheet, so I will update manually.
Thanks for writing it up! I should really have checked through this stuff before I started the game, instead of doing it in the middle of combat, sorry.
That said, the traits can't reduce a 1st level spell to a cantrip through metamagic - there was a FAQ about it:
“This trait was never intended as a way for you to actually lower a spell’s level. It was put in to allow you to reduce the increase from a metamagic feat. So, no unlimited magic missiles. I will see to it that the language of this ability is clarified soon and I will get this added to the FAQ.”
It's not 100% clear that that's what you were doing, but I thought I should post this anyway.
Oh yes, that's what I was doing! I wasn't aware of the FAQ. I will reduce the spell slot accordingly!
Toppling magic missile is still a good spell at Level 1, though. Tal'ariel greatly appreciates it as she hits hard but not at all accurately.
You should consider grabbing another trait to replace one of the two. Unless you have more plans for that magic missile.
Wanted to double check something; do you agree that Tal'ariel as a Thassilonian Specialist has access to the base Conjuration school powers found here?
I think James Jacobs essentially says yes (you can't specialize in a subschool but you can get your base arcane school powers), but I previously did not add these powers, and therefore wanted to check.
Oh, I will probably get other metamagic feats (disruptive, vast, piercing, etc.) to use with the magic missiles. With the spontaneous metafocus feat, it's still a good use of my time :) plus, like Ierox said, I can also get some of the two-level bump ones instead.
Wanted to double check something; do you agree that Tal'ariel as a Thassilonian Specialist has access to the base Conjuration school powers found here?
I think James Jacobs essentially says yes (you can't specialize in a subschool but you can get your base arcane school powers), but I previously did not add these powers, and therefore wanted to check.
Hmm. That's a really good question.
Just reading the rules for it I'd go "no", but given that all the Thassalonian Specialists in Rise of the Runelords AE get to keep their powers, it's pretty clear to me that the answer is supposed to be "yes".
So yes, you do get to keep your school powers.
Aaand these things can't roll well if their lives depend on it.
Just parsing the round here, a lot of stuff to keep track of:
Does Yulai's Ride bonus include her armor check penalty, btw? It says +8, but that might be 4 ranks +3 prof +4 dex = +11, and then -3 from kikko armor, and not counting the shield because she's usually using her bow?
Anyway, if ACP is included, she succeeds on guiding with knees but fails to Fight with Combat Trained Mount, if ACP is not included in the +8, then she fails at both.
The only difference is whether she keeps her shield bonus, really.
Her smite hits, and deals damage.
Bran hits, no crit though. The hobgoblin is still standing.
R1 wDC14: 1d20 - Success!
Isawa kills the one Bran hit, and trips both the others. In other news, which spells did you pick with Mystic Past Life, Magical Lineage and Wayang Spell Hunter? It doesn't say on your sheet.
Yes it does include ACP, hero lab autocalcs that for statblocks. The ox is combat riding trained.
I saw the map for a moment but now the new map doesn't seem to appear at the link. Anyone else having trouble?
-Posted with Wayfinder
Did Iris and the ram hit the wounded hobgoblin, or just the ram?
Would Iris need to succeed at a fast dismount (Ride check) to be able to move past the leader without provoking an AoO (Acrobatics check) and attack him in the same round, or will the Acrobatics check suffice?
Can combat trained mounts be flanking buddies?
Would you mind breaking down the math of the ride bonus for me please?
Sure, give me a moment.
Ok, here's what hero lab is doing:
4 ranks + 3 class + 4 dex - 3 kikko - 2 shield => 8.
That, uh, doesn't work hero lab. You're exciting.
Digging into it, it looks like it's not calculating the shield penalty? Probably because the default weapon is the bow.
Ok, yeah if I uncheck the bow as default weapon it drops. That makes sense.
So it should be +6 with shield. Ok, that makes more sense and yeah os doesn't attack in that case but we do guide with knees and keep the shield bonus?
Thanks for checking my work - did I mention I'm bad at mounted combat?
I see the map again -- not sure why it didn't load for me. Sorry for the interruption.
Did Iris and the ram hit the wounded hobgoblin, or just the ram?
Would Iris need to succeed at a fast dismount (Ride check) to be able to move past the leader without provoking an AoO (Acrobatics check) and attack him in the same round, or will the Acrobatics check suffice?
Can combat trained mounts be flanking buddies?
Only the ram hit.
Mounts can definitely be flanking buddies, so long as they threaten the target.
As for dismounting, it technically leaves you in the mount's square. So if you want to move more than 5 ft. after that, you need to take another move action. So if you want to dismount + move + attack, you need to make the 'dismount' part a free action. And since you're currently within reach of B, you also need an acrobatics check to avoid AoOs for your movement.
I saw the map for a moment but now the new map doesn't seem to appear at the link. Anyone else having trouble?
-Posted with Wayfinder
I've noticed similar issues - I'll try a use a different site.
Digging into it, it looks like it's not calculating the shield penalty? Probably because the default weapon is the bow.Ok, yeah if I uncheck the bow as default weapon it drops. That makes sense.
So it should be +6 with shield. Ok, that makes more sense and yeah os doesn't attack in that case but we do guide with knees and keep the shield bonus?
Thanks for checking my work - did I mention I'm bad at mounted combat?
Thank you for looking it over for me!
The dreaded GM Bane, the Grapple, begins.
I have the information posted in the spoiler, but if you'd like some clarification, or handy trees, let me know.
Everything should be in order in terms of legibility.
Grapple: Infodump
If this grapple is successful, we are both Grappled (with Bran being the Grappler and the Hobgoblin being the Grapplee.)
Grappled targets (other than Bran) take -4 Dexterity, -2 to all attacks and CMB other than to break a Grapple, cannot move, and cannot threaten.
Note: The reason Bran takes a -2 to AC, is due to the Buckler which doesn't occupy a hand but the hand is used in the Grapple, so you'd lose the Buckler AC.
As a Grapplee:
If you're grappled, you can try to break free as a standard action by:
A) rolling CMB vs CMD; or,
B) rolling Escape Artist against a DC equal to the opponent's CMD
Items that might alter your CMB and CMD: While grappled, remember that you at a -4 penalty to Dex. If you are holding onto a weapon with one hand and are humanoid, apply another -4.
If this succeeds, you can:
A) Break free and act normally
B) Become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can)
Alternately, instead of making a grapple check, you may:
A) Take any one-handed action
B) Make an attack or full attack with a one-handed, light weapon (or a natural weapon) at -2; you may attack any creature in reach (though you may not take AoOs)
C) Attempt to cast a spell by making a Concentration check with a high DC (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level); if this check is failed, you lose the spell. Note that if you take damage while casting, you may be required to make another roll. The DC for this roll is per the damage rules: 10 + ½ the damage that the continuous source last dealt + the level of the spell you're casting.
Note: If you don't break the Grapple, Bran gains a +5 Circumstance bonus each turn to maintain it
Note: Humanoid means Humanoid in shape, not the creature subtype. So a Goblinoid hobgoblin still takes the -4 penalty to Grapple without both hands free for instance.
Humanoid is a type, not a subtype(goblinoids are still both kinds of humanoid), but I get what you mean.
He'll most likely just stab you or Iris, depending.
Thanks for the grapple primer. I think I understand it, but in my experience, it's when you think you understand something that you're really the most confused. So who knows. If I do something that seems sketchy, just yell at me.
Yeah it's a tricky subject.
I'll try to post in detail little by little each time so it's not a wall of text!
This is the best game btw. We're doing mounted combat, volley fire archery, and grappling in the first fight.
Good times.
When grappling, do you and/or your enemy threaten each other for the purpose of AoOs and/or flanking?
Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
You can't make AoO's, but you still threaten and flank.
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn.
Because you can make a Melee Attack (heck, even a Full-Round Attack!) while still in a grapple (at a -2), you can still threaten.
Basically, treat it as if you've expended all of your AoO's.
That's f!@$ing strange. But reading up on it, you seem to be right.
A Grapple is basically disabling one arm (think like trying to arrest someone), we're in a tussle. When you're Pinned its a whole different story; that's when you have both hands disabled, in a more Greco-Roman Wrestling Fashion. In that position, you no longer threaten (as you can't even attack in a Pin).
Can a pinned creature or character make a full attack?Nope, because one of the things that happened when you are pinned is that you are VERY limited as to what actions you can take. Most importantly, you can't attack if you're pinned—in order to attack, you first need to escape the pinned condition. So... no. If you're pinned, you can't make a full attack.
Hope this helps :)
It seems to me like it should either totally restrict attacking outside of the grapple, or you should be able to make one-handed AoOs with the normal penalty for attacking outside a grapple.
It's also wierd that both of you can now do stuff that normally provokes aoos, but won't be able to AoO each other, because you're grappling.
He could drink a potion without provoking an AoO from you, for example.
I'm not saying the rules are wrong, I'm just saying they're wierd. Just how it goes.
Aye I can see the weirdness. Part of it is that Grapple is traditionally more of a Monster thing, and they use tentacles, tails, roots, and other weird things; that is where some of the weirdness comes from.
Just so you're clear on where the Obscuring Mist is, and where you can see, here's a sketch of the map:
Isawa can't see R3, because it's in the fog. Or not, maybe he moved.
Oh! If the commander goes unconscious as a result of the Nonlethal Damage, Bran will switch to a One-Handed Grapple (-4 Penalty) as a Free Action to regain his Shield Bonus.
Only if it was on his turn of course.
By the way, if you stand on an outer square of the mist, you can use the 20% concealment to attempt stealth, if you like.
Now that you've broken contact with the enemy, you can also use any forested square to stealth in.