So after a 10 hour day at work I come home to find 25 posts, an escalated hit and run battle and a dead character.
WOW!
On a side note I'd really reconsider the whole must have nine deal since we keep dropping new people like flies, and continually adding people not only stretches story crdibility but affects the tightly knit group dynamic.
Well, my character is sort of a built in plot device for keeping dead characters in the game, and even bringing them back (easier later than now, but the possibility is there)
Can't do anything about someone not having fun though.
Related to that, I'd like to voice a few concerns that have been on my mind.
I enjoy the hell out of this game (I think that's obvious) and I have really tried to let things move along in accordance with what's best for the story, but a few of the methods that have been used to tell the story feel a little forced to me. I'm going to use my own character for a couple specific examples, but there are others I've noticed. I'm curious if anyone else feels the same way about their characters, or has noticed any of the same trends.
First, we did not make saves against fatigue or exhaustion. I'm fine with that thematically, it's what Nightflier wants for the story. However, my character has Endurance and a racial bonus against environmental effects. One of his character points is that he's able to stave off those sorts of things far longer than most people. In the group, only Sorok beats him in that department, but without the saves being made, that aspect of the character was lost. That was frustrating, because while fatigued, Ragnar can't rage. A substantial chunk of his combat prowess goes out the window because he wasn't given the chance to make saves that he probably could have easily succeeded.
Second, the fear aura thing- It's come up quite a few times, and everything has been immune, or the save has been forgotten until after the enemy has already acted, usually causing bloodshed to Ragnar or those near him. This is the first time it's actually worked, and it was too late to matter. I don't want to retcon things, even if it would have meant Lanik could have survived, but I'd really like it if that ability wasn't forgotten again. Ragnar has an AC of 10. That saving throw is essentially his armor class.
Third- There are people in the group with very high perceptions. When Zafina and her entourage left, we didn't get rolls to find them. We'd already established that there weren't many places to go in this tunnel. We really should have been able to track them or follow them, but we didn't. We weren't even given the chance. They were just gone. That scene felt a little railroaded.
4th- Gillian is the lynchpin of the group. I think everyone knows that. I found it frustrating that when a character put himself between her and the bad guys, obviously intending to stay with her, move with her and try to keep her safe, the limitations of the rules completely invalidated that. For three rounds, Sorok gave up his actions to protect her, when he could have been bashing heads, and it didn't matter at all. To me, that seemed unfair. I was frustrated, and it wasn't even my character.
There's my rant. None of this means I don't enjoy the game. If I'm out of line, just tell me. I'd rather swallow it and keep playing than rock the boat and slow things down.
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Huh? These things are supposed to fall down to us? Where is my AoO for them crossing my threatened squares? Not only that but I should also get attack on every one within my threatened squares except the one that kills me.
I just translated Anvinder's actions in your own Cause Fear ability.
That makes a lot of sense, but should have been taken into account first, before the bug got it's attack.
Since Lanik was right next to Ragnar, anything attacking him should have had to have made a Will save when it got close. The save happens before the actions are resolved, since it has the possibility of causing them to be unable to do anything but flee. Since we have seen that Anvinder's fear spell would have effected them, they shouldn't be immune.
I don't like retconning, but that last round was pretty full of mistakes that ended up getting a PC killed.
Lanik could not have been near Ragnar, because he would be affected by Cause Fear as well. Lanik does not have white bone item so he is not immune to his Cause Fear. It stands to reason that he would keep away from the Northman so as not to be affected.
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Well, I think I'm gunna have to bow out. I don't want to rant or complain too much because everyone els seems to be enjoying things but I have to say I am no longer having fun. I think it started when we where on the waters edge and we had a good opritunity for char development and the GM just told us what to do. Maybe I'm just picky about my DM's but I haven't liked the feel of this game so much for a while and now is as good a time as any to back out.
There is a part of me that is also frustrated but I realize that even if I rules lawyer my way back to life it means little when the real problem for me still remains. I'm not willing to play a revolving door of red shirts,
though the idea did come to mind that I create a string of Dornish channelers all with trandimensional spell feat so when they inevitably died they would still be able to cast and eventually Ragnar would be loaded to the gills with magic casting ghosts.
Anyway, I hope the rest of you still have fun and good luck.
You are right about AoOs. You should have have them while the bugs were falling on you. To be honest, I forgot about your feat - but you should have reminded me. I can not keep in mind all the abilities of all the players in all of my gaming groups, both pbp and RL. My DMing style includes a lot of trust towards players and their ability to judge things by themselves.
On another note, you not having fun is my failure as DM and I am really sorry for that. As Gilian mentioned, you are not dead yet. So, if you want to remain in the game, nothing stops you.
Assuming the travel and combat resulting in the effects we've suffered are based on the Hustle/Forced march rules, I present the following.
Hustle
A character can hustle for 1 hour without a problem. Hustling for a second hour in between sleep cycles deals 1 point of nonlethal damage, and each additional hour deals twice the damage taken during the previous hour of hustling. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from hustling becomes fatigued.
A fatigued character can't run or charge and takes a penalty of –2 to Strength and Dexterity. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue.
Run
A character can't run for an extended period of time. Attempts to run and rest in cycles effectively work out to a hustle.
Terrain
The terrain through which a character travels affects the distance he can cover in an hour or a day (see Table: Terrain and Overland Movement). A highway is a straight, major, paved road. A road is typically a dirt track. A trail is like a road, except that it allows only single-file travel and does not benefit a party traveling with vehicles. Trackless terrain is a wild area with no paths.
Forced March
In a day of normal walking, a character walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent making and breaking camp, resting, and eating.
A character can walk for more than 8 hours in a day by making a forced march. For each hour of marching beyond 8 hours, a Constitution check (DC 10, +2 per extra hour) is required. If the check fails, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from a forced march becomes fatigued. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue. It's possible for a character to march into unconsciousness by pushing himself too hard.
Note that in all of these cases the Fatigue can be overcome by removing the non lethal damage, which can be accimplished with a single point of magical healing.
That plus we should be making Con checks for which things like endurance should factor in.
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Well, my character is sort of a built in plot device for keeping dead characters in the game, and even bringing them back (easier later than now, but the possibility is there)
Can't do anything about someone not having fun though.
Related to that, I'd like to voice a few concerns that have been on my mind.
I enjoy the hell out of this game (I think that's obvious) and I have really tried to let things move along in accordance with what's best for the story, but a few of the methods that have been used to tell the story feel a little forced to me. I'm going to use my own character for a couple specific examples, but there are others I've noticed. I'm curious if anyone else feels the same way about their characters, or has noticed any of the same trends.
First, we did not make saves against fatigue or exhaustion. I'm fine with that thematically, it's what Nightflier wants for the story. However, my character has Endurance and a racial bonus against environmental effects. One of his character points is that he's able to stave off those sorts of things far longer than most people. In the group, only Sorok beats him in that department, but without the saves being made, that aspect of the character was lost. That was frustrating, because while fatigued, Ragnar can't rage. A substantial chunk of his combat prowess goes out the window because he wasn't given the chance to make saves that he probably could have easily succeeded.
Second, the fear aura thing- It's come up quite a few times, and everything has been immune, or the save has been forgotten until after the enemy has already acted, usually causing bloodshed to Ragnar or those near him. This is the first time it's actually worked, and it was too late to matter. I don't want to retcon things, even if it would have meant Lanik could have survived, but I'd really like it if that ability wasn't forgotten again. Ragnar has an AC of 10. That saving throw is essentially his armor class.
Third- There are people in the group with very high perceptions....
1. After you complete this stage of the game and proceed into the next one, I will let you assume more control of the story. Right now, your fatigue and exhaustion was way for me to give you greater amount of XP than you would get otherwise.
2. As I said to Lanik, you need to remind me. Keep in mind that you need to think only of your character, but I have seven or eight of you and NPCs and monsters and other games to think of. If I didn't want for you to have this ability, I would have banned it from the start. So, just remind me in the game thread in ooc.
3. You are following them. There are no other exits from the caverns. They have retreated the same way you came in and they passed by Gilian's familiar on their way out. But, when you want to roll Perception or anything else, just say so. I will not call for rolls in every situation. I will do so when the story demands it or when the rules say that I must, but if the characters want to glean something more in way of information, you must declare your intentions.
4. Well, those are the rules and they are kind of logical. But the solution is really simple - just get Sorok a tower shield.
At the end - no, you are not out of the line. These are legitimate concerns and I hope that I addressed them. Just keep in mind that I am flesh as blood as well and that I will make mistakes in the future as well. My gaming philosophy is that all of this is collective effort and I can't do it alone. So feel free to rock the boat.
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So after a 10 hour day at work I come home to find 25 posts, an escalated hit and run battle and a dead character.
WOW!
On a side note I'd really reconsider the whole must have nine deal since we keep dropping new people like flies, and continually adding people not only stretches story crdibility but affects the tightly knit group dynamic.
High Duke's character will be the last added to this game. To be honest, I am a bit tired of working out new characters all the time.
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Assuming the travel and combat resulting in the effects we've suffered are based on the Hustle/Forced march rules, I present the following.
Hustle
A character can hustle for 1 hour without a problem. Hustling for a second hour in between sleep cycles deals 1 point of nonlethal damage, and each additional hour deals twice the damage taken during the previous hour of hustling. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from hustling becomes fatigued.
A fatigued character can't run or charge and takes a penalty of –2 to Strength and Dexterity. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue.
Run
A character can't run for an extended period of time. Attempts to run and rest in cycles effectively work out to a hustle.
Terrain
The terrain through which a character travels affects the distance he can cover in an hour or a day (see Table: Terrain and Overland Movement). A highway is a straight, major, paved road. A road is typically a dirt track. A trail is like a road, except that it allows only single-file travel and does not benefit a party traveling with vehicles. Trackless terrain is a wild area with no paths.
Forced March
In a day of normal walking, a character walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent making and breaking camp, resting, and eating.
A character can walk for more than 8 hours in a day by making a forced march. For each hour of marching beyond 8 hours, a Constitution check (DC 10, +2 per extra hour) is required. If the check fails, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from a forced march becomes fatigued. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue. It's possible for a character to march into unconsciousness by pushing himself too hard.
Note that in all of these cases the Fatigue can be overcome by removing the non lethal damage, which can be accimplished with a single point of magical healing.
That plus we should be making Con checks for which things like...
As I've said to Doomed Hero/Ragnar - when this part of the game comes to a finish, I will give you more control over the story via saving throws and various checks. But I will look in some additional rules about movement, sleep deprivation, hunger, cold and stuff like that as well.
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Now, guys, what do you want to do? This encounter should push all of you to the third level and to those who are already at that level it should give at least 1000 XP (I need to consult my tables first).
If you want, this is a nice place to finish the game. I enjoy it a lot and I would really like to continue with the game and unfolding of the story, but if you don't have fun anymore, than it is not worth it.
So, I'll give you some time to think and talk about this and I'll log in later today to see what you decided.
Dear Nightflier,
I'm having a lot of fun with this game and would really like it to go forward. I think we have a good group and a good story here.
A few point to think about for characters and players. The way you run the different fights turns the game into a more fluid one but it is then more difficult for players and DM to feel how the situation is. That can lead to frustrations on both sides.
What I like with your style is that you do explain all your decisions and they do make sense. To improve things, I think each player should take into its hands its own tactical situation and announce and roll AoO for example as he thinks they should happen. Then you just have to allow or disallow them based on the situation.
For the rest of the story, we have quite a lot of things to get done:
-Rest.
-Escape from this place without getting killed by Zafina and co.
-Go back to the nexus and drain it to enchant Ilona blade.
-Go and find the next stepping stone.
I would really like to go on with this game and I really think you're doing a very good job with it.
Just want to say I have very much enjoyed reading this rp and can't wait till return to korvosa picks up more speed. :)
Nightflier,
I don't want this game to end either, but if no one else is having fun with this, then there is no point in forcing things, as you have said. As Gilian has said, we still have a lot to accomplish here. Let's just concentrate on surviving here and then we can decide where to go from here.
Thanks for letting us voice our concerns as well.
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What I like with your style is that you do explain all your decisions and they do make sense. To improve things, I think each player should take into its hands its own tactical situation and announce and roll AoO for example as he thinks they should happen. Then you just have to allow or disallow them based on the situation.I would really like to go on with this game and I really think you're doing a very good job with it.
This would make my life a lot easier. If everybody takes care of his or hers own piece of battlefield, I can have a lot clearer perspective of the bigger picture.
And thanks for the vote of confidence. I would like to go on with the game as well.
Finish?! Hell no!
Thanks for addressing some of the things on my mind. As I've said before, I understand why you were doing some of the things you were doing, and you're right, you have a lot more to keep track of than we do. Maybe it's partly the situation in game creeping into my feelings out of game. (you've done a great job making things extremely frustrating for the characters, which is a big part of what Midnight is about)
Good point about Lanik not wanting to be near Ragnar, and also about the tower shield. That has to happen, and soon.
We can't stop yet! We haven't even gotten to the Hotel Coral Essex!
Quit now? Over my dead body......wait, scratch that.
Quit now? Over my dead body......wait, scratch that.
Scratch your dead body? Does death itch?
Quit now? Over my dead body......wait, scratch that.Scratch your dead body? Does death itch?
Only if death is caused by Jock a demon a group I was in fought who was causing a plague that involved a horrible rash and itching.
I would say just go with the normal Pathfinder rules, but I think it is silly that one measly rank in Linguistics gets you fluent in a whole language.
No idea. After I realized how the Midnight system worked for languages, I kind of liked it. But the whole pidgin, basic, and fluent thing makes things difficult. How do I type in pidgin? Maybe have one point for fluency and another for writing,
Hey, guys. High Duke here. My char is mostly done, it just needs another feat and I'm waiting for Nightflier's decion on the languages.
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Okay, guys. The underground adventures are over. Something has happened and you are about to learn what. I am introducing one more element in this game and those of you who are veteran players of Midnight may recognize what it is. Those of you who are not will probably be surprised. Needless to say, your lives will become even more complicated. That is to say, you work for an elder fay, you have compact with spirits and elementals, and now you will have one more thing to worry about. But that is for later.
Now, the moment has come for you to rework your characters - if you want - using new rules from APG.
Those of you who were below third level have now reached it. Those of you who were above third level have lost the excess XP, but you can exchange them for Fate Points at the rate of 500 XP for 1 FP.
The last two things: I have decided to rework languages in Midnight. You still have to pay 3 points for full proficiency in a language, but writing will be dealt with Linguistic skill: For every rank that you have in Linguistics, you gain the writing skill with one language. Any questions?
And for the last: High Duke has finished his character - he has only his background to post. I would be grateful if you would check his character out and give your opinion. His is the last character that will enter this game and I want to avoid toe-stepping and party roles stealing.
Now we have some role-playing to do and then you are back to the surface.
For a moment you pause to take a look at approaching tide of devil-bugs,
For whatever reason this reminded me of THIS SONG
The last two things: I have decided to rework languages in Midnight. You still have to pay 3 points for full proficiency in a language, but writing will be dealt with Linguistic skill: For every rank that you have in Linguistics, you gain the writing skill with one language. Any questions?
If we are already fully fluent in a language, does that mean you want us to just add point in linguistics for that language?
Can I consider the Punishing Kick feat for Chops instead of Stunning Fist (Like a Hungry Ghost Monk? And two, if so, could I use Chops Strength as the DC modifier instead of Wisdom, just like Stunning Fist works for Defenders.
Am I now adding Toothy to Chops?
And thank you nightflier for running this game.
Edit: Hit points
As for your question on craft skills as the Dwarf in the party with the Dwarvencraft ability I can already cover Armorsmithing, Blacksmithing, Masonry and Weaponsmithing so no need to worry yourself there. With so much of the group going channeler including yourself and with Chops being a defender I'm pretty much out of work.
Not so. Chops can wear padded armor and it appears that armorsmithing covers all armors, not just metal. So if you ever get to the point that you can craft magic armors, you would make Chops a very happy dworg.
On the reworking of characters and the bonus trait from having a powerful enemy, any chance I could have another fiendish gift as my trait? Also, can I use the abyssal heritor feats from the Hordes of the Abyss?
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If we are already fully fluent in a language, does that mean you want us to just add point in linguistics for that language?
Yes. You add 1 point to Linguistics and you gain knowledge to write 1 language that you are fluent in. The rest works the same as before.
Can I consider the Punishing Kick feat for Chops instead of Stunning Fist (Like a Hungry Ghost Monk? And two, if so, could I use Chops Strength as the DC modifier instead of Wisdom, just like Stunning Fist works for Defenders. And who doesn't think Chops doing a Flying Punishing Kick, knocking the enemy on its ass isn't awesom!?
What's the source? APG?
Am I now adding Toothy to Chops?
Yes.
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On the reworking of characters and the bonus trait from having a powerful enemy, any chance I could have another fiendish gift as my trait? Also, can I use the abyssal heritor feats from the Hordes of the Abyss?
Depends, on both cases. Explain what you had in mind. In principle, yes. But I would probably need to rework something.
Chops, Punishing Kick Prerequisites: Con 13, Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8.
You do not have sufficient BaB yet.
I meant as a class ability instead of Stunning Fist. It is an alternate class feature for the Hungry Ghost monk where Stunning Fist is traded for Punishing Kick.
Punishing Kick (Ex): At 1st level, a hungry ghost monk gains Punishing Kick as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 10th level, and every five levels thereafter, the monk can push the target of his Punishing Kick an additional 5 feet (10 feet at 10th level, 15 feet at 15th level, and 20 feet at 20th level). At 15th level, he can instead choose to push the target 5 feet and knock the target prone with the same attack. The target still gets a saving throw to avoid being knocked prone. This ability replaces Stunning Fist.
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Okay. I have no problem with that feat - but be sure to remember to ask if there is enough room for you to use it when you wish to do so. My narrative style of combat my prove difficult for implementing this feat.
On the other hand, I'm about to finish my Warder Prestige Class. It will essentially be a class designed to serve as a bodyguard to the channelers. It may be of an interest to you. I will post it later tonight.
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Well if you guys still want me I have my quickling still never did quite finish it but I could be up in a few days although if I don't have a white bone item like I was orginaly gonna start with I need to rewrite the backstory and I'm waiting on my midnight books to get here like night flyier wanted
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Well if you guys still want me I have my quickling still never did quite finish it but I could be up in a few days although if I don't have a white bone item like I was orginaly gonna start with I need to rewrite the backstory and I'm waiting on my midnight books to get here like night flyier wanted
The group voted not to have any new characters introduced into the game once High Duke's character enters, although there is a free spot now that Lanik's player decided to exit the game.
I will let this be a group decision. If the group decides not to let any new characters into the game, after High Duke's, I will make a spot for you in some of my other games.
Okay. I have no problem with that feat - but be sure to remember to ask if there is enough room for you to use it when you wish to do so. My narrative style of combat my prove difficult for implementing this feat.
On the other hand, I'm about to finish my Warder Prestige Class. It will essentially be a class designed to serve as a bodyguard to the channelers. It may be of an interest to you. I will post it later tonight.
I'll think about it. I don't want any more confusion like in that last battle. Thematically, Chops kicking an orc and knocking it back five or ten feet would be pretty cool though.
OK Solvi is almost leveled up...here is her HP roll: .
The only thing left to pick is her 3rd level feat, either Ritual Casting, or Spell Knowledge.
Gilian, it's your call, Solvi can pick up Ritual Casting if needed. Let me know if you need her to pick it up.
I am OK with Divine Shadow joining us.
DS has proven himself persistent, which makes me think he's not likely to pull another vanishing act. That's a big vote of confidence in my book.
Our rogues keep dying, so I say yes.
For those of us above 3rd, how much xp to trade in was that last fight worth?
For a generic call for players I would still vote no, but if there is someone specific who is excited and ready, I can't say no to that.
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For a generic call for players I would still vote no, but if there is someone specific who is excited and ready, I can't say no to that.
Awe thanks chops I would have started when I first showed up but nightflier said wait and then I had a death in the family and a bunch of other crud so I had to give up my free time but now my life is stable again and yeah I can do rogue DH np. Now I guess we just wait on the rest of the votes and for nightflier to tell me what lvl and vp and what not for charcter gen and if I need to rewrite that white bone out of the backstory
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Solvi, Ragnar and Chops voted yes. If you get one more vote from a member of the original group - you are in. But you will not get white bone item. We will need to do something else and you will need to complete your character pretty quickly. If you do get in, you will be introduced at the same time as High Duke's character - and that will probably happen on Monday or Tuesday.
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Hmmm then I maynot go elfling as I need a new backstory now I will work on it tonight at work and email you something hopefully in the morning if I can ever find that shadow blasted hp DH made for me I will still use it and I will keep my story along the same idea as for my elfling just not gonna worry bout all the tribal stuff will still be rogue whaþ pt buy and lvl and all that stuff so I can get started on it that way I have ready if they say yes if they say no then well atleast I like making characters lol
Awe thanks chops I would have started when I first showed up but nightflier said wait and then I had a death in the family and a bunch of other crud so I had to give up my free time but now my life is stable again and yeah I can do rogue DH np. Now I guess we just wait on the rest of the votes and for nightflier to tell me what lvl and vp and what not for charcter gen and if I need to rewrite that white bone out of the backstory
No problem. Sorry to hear about the hard times and welcome to the game. It has been hair raising.
I was thinking about Lanik's build, and the more I do, the more I think he was destined to be killed eventually. With the Combat Reflexes and Backstab, it made him an awesome offensive combatant, but his hit points were still average. I would guess that in any battle against intelligent enemies, they would notice that he is whacking the hell out of anyone that attacks his buddies and therefore make himself a target. The enemies would ignore anyone else until he was down, because anytime they got hit, Lanik would lay in for up to four hits per round.
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I was thinking about Lanik's build, and the more I do, the more I think he was destined to be killed eventually. With the Combat Reflexes and Backstab, it made him an awesome offensive combatant, but his hit points were still average. I would guess that in any battle against intelligent enemies, they would notice that he is whacking the hell out of anyone that attacks his buddies and therefore make himself a target. The enemies would ignore anyone else until he was down, because anytime they got hit, Lanik would lay in for up to four hits per round.
You are certainly right. As soon as he attacked, most organized opponents would target him. Well, the demon has made demands of Zafina and Harzar to bring him the gnome's head precisely for that reason.
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Hmmm then I maynot go elfling as I need a new backstory now I will work on it tonight at work and email you something hopefully in the morning if I can ever find that shadow blasted hp DH made for me I will still use it and I will keep my story along the same idea as for my elfling just not gonna worry bout all the tribal stuff will still be rogue whaþ pt buy and lvl and all that stuff so I can get started on it that way I have ready if they say yes if they say no then well atleast I like making characters lol
Perhaps it is a good idea not to make an elfling, since we already have black elf wildlander-rogue in the party? High Duke's character will be damage dealer, so I don't really know what is the best choice of race and class for you to play. Additional healer may be good choice, or highland imp channeler specialized in crafting charms. Although, this game has a bad run with rogues and wildlanders... One option is creating a Scout, since I allow that class into the game as is. There are some other classes that I would allow - alchemist, factotum and binder are possible ideas.
If you get accepted, talk with other players so that your character can fit well with the rest of the party.