CaveToad, did you have any ideas on how you wanted to use this discussion thread and gameplay thread?
I was considering, that since all the tables are still relatively close to each other, that each table could post something akin to what direction they are going in, or what their current actions are (as a group).
In the future, messages sent or left at the base for the other groups could be entered on this game play thread.
For instance, Table 4 is heading to the lake, I believe several other groups are doing the same thing.
Once at the lake, we plan to spend a little time on supplies before heading up stream. We are choosing that direction because of the number of groups that appear to be heading down stream.
The lake is the mouth of the river I believe :)
Table 5 is going to make a beeline to lower elevations instead of initially following the river.
Meanwhile, Table 1 seems to be mostly aiming for the lower side of the lake, to follow the stream down from there.
Yeah, 4 believes we're heading up.
If that leaves us with no river to follow, then fine.
Into the mountains we go!
Hopefully we can find some dwarves.
CaveToad, did you have any ideas on how you wanted to use this discussion thread and gameplay thread?
I was considering, that since all the tables are still relatively close to each other, that each table could post something akin to what direction they are going in, or what their current actions are (as a group).
In the future, messages sent or left at the base for the other groups could be entered on this game play thread.
For instance, Table 4 is heading to the lake, I believe several other groups are doing the same thing.
Once at the lake, we plan to spend a little time on supplies before heading up stream. We are choosing that direction because of the number of groups that appear to be heading down stream.
Yes this es exactly what I envisioned. The master thread is more to be used for cross table coordination and general questions. As Jovar delivers messages back and forth, and as the groups gain access to higher level spells like sending and teleport, it makes some coordination easier.
I will be getting some maps into your hands tonight I hope.
Table 2 goes tinto the forest, searching for elves
Searching for anything really. There were more that enough people headed to the lake so we went elsewhere.
.
Will we be doing Unchained Automatic Bonus Progression so that when/if we get magic items they can be more unique and interesting than boost-my-various-attributes items like belts of strength, cloaks of resistance, etc?
-Posted with Wayfinder
^ Up vote.
I'm not doing the automatic progression. I wouldn't worry about it for several reasons.
1. Your special item will be able to be advance and enchanted with all sorts of goodies.
2. I'm usually pretty generous, and WBL usually gets kicked to the curb at some point. I may keep it lean and mean at first, just to keep it gritty, but after a while the booty flows.
3. I'm a big fan of item creation feats, so making your own magic items, using the creation rules allows for tweaks and heavy customization. Stacking powers costs extra, and doing it on atypical slots does too, but see #1 and #2.
4. I also like to make up magic items that do interesting things other than X bonus to Y or spells X/day.
Fear not, Santa CaveToad has your back.
Well, you only have so many item slots for actually wearing items...
That is where stacking comes in ;).
I am a bit sad that alternate slots cost extra given the shared slots of the summoner, but it's certainly better than not having the option.
...an Eidolon really, really does not need any magic items to be a productive member of a team. But also this is the perfect campaign for crafting (pretty much everyone's a full caster with the feats to spare).
...an Eidolon really, really does not need any magic items to be a productive member of a team. But also this is the perfect campaign for crafting (pretty much everyone's a full caster with the feats to spare).
Somehow I don't think we have the same expectations of what we are going to face. CaveToad said it will be challenging for our full party of tristalt members. Given that an eidolon is roughly on par with a single classed fighter in powerlevel, it will need some serious help to stay relevant in such a world. I am guessing that an eidolon without proper defenses will be fairly quickly dismissed, caved in or simply torn to shreds(depending on what we face of course). Overcoming DR and ridiculous AC or weird hit modifiers or just simply dealing enough damage are all challenged that I doubt an unbuffed, ungeared eidolon will be able to deal with very well.
Agreed. I am waiting to decide on Lunar Oracle Animal Companion until I see more about how the combats go.
-Posted with Wayfinder
I'd actually think that our companions probably will wind up needing help, if they're to function well in combat (Eidolon, Animal Companion, Etc). They're designed to be utilized by people around a 20 point buy. We're sporting something like a 70 point buy... or something crazy. (I think I'm at 102).
Further, I'm sporting the new summoner, which trades a lot of power for a bit of fluffiness. In fact, I'd argue that my Eidolon is -less- strong than an Animal Companion at basically any given level (for combat), unless I do something stupid with it.
That's not me complaining or anything, I love all of my decisions, as they're thematic. So... basically what Xanya said. Pets are basically giving up power for a little action economy and flexibility. And I'm happy with that. That's why Miyu is focused on becoming a skill Eidolon. :)
Keep in mind that while we are crazy with class abilities, we still only have one swift/immediate action, one move/standard or full action each round.
Throwing a group of us at a single CR5 creature, and we'll probably eat it.
Throw the same group against 20 CR 3 creatures and we'll get served up for lunch.
maybe the Schism psionic power would help a tiny bit but it has a rough drawback
Keep in mind that while we are crazy with class abilities, we still only have one swift/immediate action, one move/standard or full action each round.
Throwing a group of us at a single CR5 creature, and we'll probably eat it.
Throw the same group against 20 CR 3 creatures and we'll get served up for lunch.
I agree. Revised Action Economy would be really great for us.
Keep in mind that while we are crazy with class abilities, we still only have one swift/immediate action, one move/standard or full action each round.
Throwing a group of us at a single CR5 creature, and we'll probably eat it.
Throw the same group against 20 CR 3 creatures and we'll get served up for lunch.
Originally, I was thinking we might not be able to take on a CR 5 creature because of how low our to-hit scores are right now, but after running the numbers, I realized that, between buffs, rage, and flanking, we might be able to pull it off. It would be a really tough fight, and we'd need some major recovery afterward if it got any kind of hit in on us, but we'd probably be able to win.
Considering 20 CR 3's is an EL 12 and one CR 5 is an EL 5.
They should be vastly different in challenge. :)
Personally I believe in order to keep encounter balance you need more easy enemies, and less really powerful solo enemies. Less chance that either party get's one shot.
I pretty much ignore CR stuff. Yeah its a good guide, but I feel like since the original CR rules character power creep for even normal play has gone up while monsters remain the same for their CR. I go with what I think the party can handle, sometimes it will be easy, sometimes hard. A lot of things factor in but we will learn just how good everyone is when the first combat comes along ;)
Originally, I was thinking we might not be able to take on a CR 5 creature because of how low our to-hit scores are right now, but after running the numbers, I realized that, between buffs, rage, and flanking, we might be able to pull it off. It would be a really tough fight, and we'd need some major recovery afterward if it got any kind of hit in on us, but we'd probably be able to win.Keep in mind that while we are crazy with class abilities, we still only have one swift/immediate action, one move/standard or full action each round.
Throwing a group of us at a single CR5 creature, and we'll probably eat it.
Throw the same group against 20 CR 3 creatures and we'll get served up for lunch.
Well a lot are going to come down to circumstance and exactly what enemy it is. I am sure there are a few CR 5 enemies Xanya can kill in one round with some luck, but they could also strike first if they win initiative. I've had a group of 4 regular level 1 characters beat a CR 5 encounter before. I think it's certainly possible for us to handle that.
I imagine pretty much all the enemies will be heavily tuned based on the individual groups that face them. Something that could be a fun, challenging and interesting encounter for one group could be an impossible task or laughable easy for another.
This brings me to another question. How are we handling experience and leveling up? Is it just based on the CR of the monsters we meet?
I'd actually think that our companions probably will wind up needing help, if they're to function well in combat (Eidolon, Animal Companion, Etc). They're designed to be utilized by people around a 20 point buy. We're sporting something like a 70 point buy... or something crazy. (I think I'm at 102).
It depends. I'm going Bloodrider, which means my companion will directly benefit from many of my best abilities; with constant Blur and Shield Other and Max HD... at level 9, it will have approximately 6x the HP of a normal companion of its level.
This brings me to another question. How are we handling experience and leveling up? Is it just based on the CR of the monsters we meet?
For the most part, but not just for monsters, traps and other challenges can warrant experience too. I also do storyline bonuses and sometimes achievement bonuses. Once I crunch some numbers I will see if I want to apply any multipliers ( up or down ). I chose fast advancement, so we shall see.
As the groups wait for the night to pass, I will be doing final reviews. Notes I have taken and crunches will be reviewed for errors and mismatches. I have a spreadsheet and will use a checklist (listed below) to mark a pass for fail in each category for each character. It will make things go a lot faster if you go over the list yourself and make sure you can pass all the items. If a character needs to fix something, go ahead and get it tweaked. If your character build is somehow invalid and takes a rework that is ok. Otherwise no massive tweaks should be required. Once all characters on a table pass, I will proceed with play. I will send each player an email with a checklist of the pass/fail items. Help each other out and check out each others builds, although many of you may already have. Here is the checklist I will use:
Abilities:
Original stat rolls - Matching
Original stat rolls - 90 or more?
Stat rolls - additions and subtractions noted in a budget spoiler
Abilities - Bonuses are correct
Racial:
Racial Qualities accounted for
Racial Ability mods applied correctly
Racial Purchases - 30 RP budget matches and purchases documented
Classes:
Classes legal sources
Classes - Archetypes legal, multiple archetypes valid, cross bloodlines legal
Classes - Alignment requirements met
Combat Crunch
Crunch - Size/Reach noted
Crunch - Initiative and Perception values correct
Crunch - Move speed correct
Crunch - Armor Class values correct, math shown
Crunch - HP values correct, math shown, FCB and toughness applied, proper HD used
Crunch - Saves correct, math shown
Crunch - CMB/CMD accurate, math shown
Skills
Skills - Correct points calculated for level, bonus included
Skills - Correct number of ranks applied
Skills - Correct bonuses for class skills applied based on classes, proper stat bonuses and misc bonuses applied
Skills - Untrained skills listed
Feats:
Feats - Correct Number of feats
Feats - Prerequisites met for all feats, source of feat documented
Traits:
Traits - Three traits are of different type
Traits - Legal Traits
Traits - Any bonuses are applied
Special Abilities:
Special Abilities - uses per day properly calculated as needed
Special Abilities - correct abilities for classes and archetype(s)
Spells/Powers:
Spells - valid number of daily spells
Spells - valid spell selections
PoW stances - valid discipline
PoW stances - correct number of stances
PoW stances - valid stances
Minions:
Minions - All minions have a full stat block with values properly calculated
Minions - Eidolons Pool points correctly distributed, Feats applied, powers fit form
Minions - Familiars, correct type applied, skills, hp and base saves documented from master, feat rechosen as needed
Minions - Companions calculated correctly, feats, tricks and all stats match
Languages:
Languages - Match racial type (linguist, xenophobic), available legal options and int bonus
Misc:
Misc - hero points documented
Misc - Item documented, with its own crunch, and bonus feats ( weapon prof ), etc
Misc - Character description, backstory, personality, goals
Misc - Mini Crunch in character stat fields
Misc - Age, Size, misc features filled in
Misc - Encumbrance loads listed
Misc - Monetary Budget spoiler
This will be crossposted to the table threads too, since some do not read the master thread.
Home sick from work today, and spent a little bit thinking about character progression plans, seeing as we cannot retain classes and our builds are already probably crazy complicated.
There was a section somewhere on prestige class rules, and that 1 'column' of a class would require it to fulfill the requirements on its own. How does this work with Twin Mind class purchasing and skill requirements.
For example:
If we are going along with the campaign and I am a 10th level tristalt and have a few levels available to spend in twin mind.
Dragon Disciple has requirements: 5 ranks in Arcana, Draconic language, and able to cast 1st level arcane spells without preparation.
My tristalt already has 10 ranks in Arcana, and can speak the draconic language, and can cast 1st level arcane spells without preparation. The twin mind already has it's 1 level in a Psionic class, but no others.
Which of the following is valid?
A. Twin mind class purchase requires 1 level of sorcerer so it can get the arcane spell preparation, but already meets the skill requirement from sources outside of twin mind, and you don't actually gain skills from twin mind. Sorcerer -> Draconic Disciple...
B. Nothing counts, and it must pretend to gain skills in arcana, even though the required skill is already achieved elsewhere. Sorcerer 5 -> Draconic Disciple...
Just wanted to ask, because in case I do get through trial I'd like to have a plan.
I knew the sneaky little kobold was a dragon-traitor!
Seriously, though. I think your first Twin Mind must be at least 3rd before you multiclass.
Or 4th.
As to Dragon Disciple, your column you choose to use DD with must meet the spell casting requirements, although skills/feats from other columns count for all three.
Hahaha, I figure if there's already so much material for dragon themed kobolds I might as well!
You are correct! I found the line that said no multiclassing before 4th level. So the real question is it Sorcerer 3 ('before' not including 4th) -> DD, Sorcerer 4 -> DD ('before' including 4th), or Sorcerer 5 -> DD (if the imaginary skill points are required)
You can't take sorcerer as your first twin mind class, you need a psionic class first. Then you can take 1 level of sorcerer followed by DD. I am thinking to maybe pick up DD that way myself, though swashbuckler and paladin probably got higher priority.
Right, there was a small part in my post that accepted that the psion class needed to come first. I just dunno if I want to go far with that, I don't understand it amazingly, and I think simplicity is really important for characters of this complexity.
And you reminded me that prestige doesn't count as multiclassing, so if the skills from elsewhere count, the Sorcerer -> DD is completely valid!
That'd save me the 3 feats it costs to get permanent dragon wings from kobold draconic paragon or eldritch heritage! Interesting that in this campaign, feats might be more difficult than investing entire levels in a class!
I'd worry about level 10 questions when we're not level 1.
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I'd worry about level 10 questions when we're not level 1.
Like I pointed out, gestalt is really complex, and one of the things I saw in the big rules post was no retraining classes. I don't want to screw up something cool I could potentially do because I didn't ask a question now
But mostly I've been sick all day and this is a simple thing to do while my headache dies down.
Can you channel while raging? Do you have to roll due to Superstition against channel? It grants bonus against supernatural effects, but only says you have to roll against spells.
Luckily the only way you can pull off superstitious while being a caster yourself is by being insane.
As far as I understand Channel Energy is a supernatural ability and not a spell like ability - it doesn't provoke AoO's, and never needs concentration, so it probably doesn't matter if you are raging.
I think, but am less sure, that this also applies to the superstition power - it only says spells are forced to make saves and not supernatural abilities. So as written, you should be fine?
Probably need a GM ruling on this but...
"While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration."
Spell-Like Ability (Sp)
Supernatural Ability (Su)
Extraordinary Ability (Ex)
Luckily the only way you can pull off superstitious while being a caster yourself is by being insane.
What? No, quite the opposite. Your spells are the only ones you can trust. The easiest way to do this would be Moment of Clarity (or possibly Mad Magic) which, rather than insanity, requires extra self-control.
I meant thematically ;)
Superstition does require you to save against your own spells as well (afaik)
Mechanically, it does, but there's not as much thematic reason for it. But I definitely recommend Clarity for anyone superstitious and casting spells in this campaign.
Probably need a GM ruling on this but...
"While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration."
Spell-Like Ability (Sp)
Supernatural Ability (Su)
Extraordinary Ability (Ex)
This made me laugh. Thanks.
General Question that I don't know if anyone asked yet: Do our special items register with Detect Magic?
General Question that I don't know if anyone asked yet: Do our special items register with Detect Magic?
No, not yet.
Did you see my question about if you can channel while raging?
Okay, just checking.
Did you see my question about if you can channel while raging?
Should be able to since, supernatural powers don't require concentration in the rules sense. The purview of what requires patience is basically fiat, but I think calling upon your god to channel some divine power through you works. There may be other supernatural powers that may not work based on flavor text.
Got most of the character reviews done this weekend, still have 4 to go which I will complete tomorrow. Once everyone gets back to me with their revisions and completions, we can continue on with the storyline (many already have). Sorry for the delay, but quite a few characters had incomplete characters, or were missing information, abilities, skills, or had slightly illegal builds. The good news is it helped me get much more familiar with people's characters and help plan for the future.
Status of reviews and feedback etc are in the main campaign tab under the character status spoiler.
Ok reviews for all characters have gone out. Many of you have already responded and adjusted or tweaked as needed, and are marked as passed. If you are changing something while we are still in Trial Phase, send me an email, so I can note it. Once we end Trial phase, changes can no longer be made without retraining. Some of you have replied but are still working on some changes or tweaks, so haven't been marked passed yet. I have the next adventure piece planned, and also working on some frameworks for a more solid ruleset for your special items, that will let you plan a little better.
Just a note about the flow. For now we are still in trial, and I am keeping the tables on roughly the same timeline due to proximity and potential for immediate(ish) interaction as well as some timed events. Once the groups split apart more and follow their own paths, it will be more free flow and I won't keep everyone on the same event timeline. This is also why I want to make sure all characters pass review before I move the timeline forward, despite some tables all passed or almost there.
This post will be cross-posted to the various tables, so sorry for the spam if you read in more than one place. I would like the various tables to check in with the master thread as well, just to keep track of overall changes.
In addition, I will be camping from Friday June 26 through Thurs July 2nd. The last you may hear from me would be Friday morning the 26th and not until probably the evening of July 2nd when I return. The camp ground is remote, and cell reception is unreliable at best, and I don't feel I can adequately GM from a phone in the wilderness, so I will suspend play during that time, or if possible, I will try to get the groups to a point where you can do things that don't require me as much. Without revealing too much about what lies in store now, I will have more information as we get closer.
Now that you're done with the -major- work of looking over things, I'll bring my questions back up (and ask a few new ones):
1: Does Versatile Performance use the Misc bonuses of the performance skill or the skill it replaces? (So, a bonus to dance affects acrobatics and fly, but not their own miscs, or Acrobatics and Fly use their own misc, but gain nothing from a masterwork dancing tool?)
2: A Sacred Servant Paladin can exchange a single +1 from her 'Divine Bond' to gain a single use of lay on hands for the day. It does not say that it must be used during the Divine Bond (and seems to suggest I can just keep popping it to gain more lay on hands). I doubt it will come up, but I wanted to ensure that we were on the same page here.
3: What are the evolutions you feel simply cannot be taken with Spirit Summoner(Life) [emphasis on the eidolon section]? I have a pretty good idea, and I know what I plan to avoid entirely. :) I don't see anything on the Unchained list, but there are a few things on the normal list (such as undead appearance).
I'm sure there are other things, but they aren't coming to me at the moment. :)