In such cases a reasonable limit to such infinite attack scenarios would be to limit it to 1 such attack allowed with no rebounding. I need to take a look at it all.
I guess you could always just pull the "DM card". That is "If you do stupid things, you will get stupid things done back to you, for example rocks falling." So as long as people manage to limit themselves it should be fine.
I am prepared for and willing to accept a good deal of shenanigans with the power level in the campaign, but clearly some limits will be set when crazy cases of infinite power occur. It helps to point this stuff out now to find a reasonable solution rather than what I often see is people keeping is secret hoping they can spring it on the DM in the future. I swing the nerf bat if I really have to. Most of the time I won't need to though.
I'd say 'this cannot be triggered by attacks of opportunity' fixes the problem entirely. It might be a little on the overkill side, though.
The problem with 'just don't do it' is how good mythic combat reflexes is, and how amazing that third tier style feat is. It adds a -ton- of flexibility to all the boosts you might be sporting as a Golden Lion.
Granted... I foresee myself taking one, but not the other, if I somehow manage to find 20 more feats. :p
It's a feat called "Golden Lion Style."
* * *
To be fair, I have crazy shenanigans planned with this character (as with many of my characters)—when I get GM ruling against specific combos, I usually play it out as "here's a cool thing my character just tried for the first time in combat... and failed at spectacularly." Ruthless characters tend to fight dirtier, of course, which means that Teniel's current "crazy plans" mostly revolve around using Minor Illusions to create a fake stage, acting troupe, puppets, or backup dancers for the next time our party has to entertain people with a performance of some sort.
Also I expect things to get crazy with Mythic, but then again obtaining Mythic powers just doesn't happen overnight these things are the realm of epic quests and the like.
Or, you know... Maks sets up a pyramid scheme of faith in which all the goatlings worship her. #poweredbyfaith. :3
I jest.
Or do I? :o
Or, you know... Maks sets up a pyramid scheme of faith in which all the goatlings worship her. #poweredbyfaith. :3
I jest.
Or do I? :o
Stuff like this is why I sometimes with I played a character that was a bit less crazy... This campaign has all sort of options for characters that want to get somewhere in the world rather than someone who has enough internal problems to deal with while following the quest line...
My character plan involves Taunting Stance, Mythic Combat Reflexes and Seize the opportunity. Together would allow me to make to vital strike my opponent every time I was attacked. But this isn't until level 12 and I expect things to get out of hand long before that.
It's a feat called "Golden Lion Style."
* * *
To be fair, I have crazy shenanigans planned with this character (as with many of my characters)—when I get GM ruling against specific combos, I usually play it out as "here's a cool thing my character just tried for the first time in combat... and failed at spectacularly." Ruthless characters tend to fight dirtier, of course, which means that Teniel's current "crazy plans" mostly revolve around using Minor Illusions to create a fake stage, acting troupe, puppets, or backup dancers for the next time our party has to entertain people with a performance of some sort.
Well, there are some limiting factors built in. Most people will only be able to make one attack of opportunity per round, and I would say that still holds true with the Golden Lion Style, despite it not reiterating that or not being clear. Now, if you had combat reflexes you may make multiple AoOs per round, but typically you can only make one against an opponent for the specific offending instance. In this case the offending instance is actually triggered by an ally, but I would rule that the initial failed attack is part of the same instances, so you cannot bounce back and forth between two people with Golden Lion Style. Now if there are multiple assailants who all miss one would think that each would trigger an attack, but could lead to someone summoning a bunch of yard trash you know is not going to have a chance in hell of hitting the enemy with hopes of triggering an AoO vs the enemy. In this case someone would be limited by their combat reflexes limit, and the amount of enemies able to flank the opponent, still this could be somewhere in the realm of 6+ with the dexterity scores in this campaign as well as the sheer amount of feats and ease to get something like combat reflexes. A simple ruling might be to limit it there as well to once per round per attacker or opponent. Honestly this isn't the most powerful thing I see compared to other things I can envision, but might need some clarification.
And yes adding in Mythic Combat reflexes adds another dimension since you can have no limit to AoO, but you still have to expend a swift action and burn a mythic power and it only works against AoOs triggered by moving from foes.
The key will be defining a the triggering incident in most of these cases, and adhering to the normal AoO rules.
Not finding the feat. Is it still in play test?
A lot of these are in the Path of War Expanded stuff, which is very much under review still by the community. I decided to allow it because hey, what the hell we are the community lets see what happens.
Also, the monsters can pull from the same toybox as the players so keep that in mind :)
Err... Mythic Combat Reflexes gives infinite AoOs regardless. And you can only make one AoO per provocation, but multiple actions of the same TYPE still provoke.
I believe the AoO chain was nipped in the bud once before via FAQ, but I don't know the wording of what they're referencing.
Let's take a more realistic example. It's level 8 and Xanya has finally picked up Golden Commander Stance along with Golden Lion Style. She charges at the enemy and after she decimates most of them Cryxial finally gets to attack against the big bad guy. Cryxial could easily have picked up Shadow Form and Shadow Blend, have 2 weapon attacks and 4 natural attacks(without starting twfing or multiweapon-fighting). Let's say both are raging but Cryxial doesn't have any other bonuses for a strength of 21 and is using power attack putting the attacks at +9/+4/+4/+4/+4/+4. Between the 20% miss chance and the poor hit-ratio Cryxial might hit 2 of the 6 attacks generating 4 AoO's. Paired Opportunists for Xanya together with the saddle sharing teamwork feats gives Cryxial 4 AoO's as well, of which maybe 2 might hit, probably maxing out Xanya's AoO count for the round at 6. This might be too over the top already. If you reduce it to 1 AoO from Xanya by counting "Cryxial attacking" as one triggering incident then it's pretty lame and probably not even worth picking up.
Can you guys explain specifically how this works, so I can go drop a line with the DSP guys on GitP? They aren't trying to make infinite attack loops or any of that nonsense, and would gladly nip this in the bud.
Warlord 1 wielding a piano walks up to enemy. Warlord 2 wielding a table walks up to flank and tries to hit the enemy. Attacking with a huge improvised weapon gives some pretty hefty penalties (but decent damage), so he misses. This triggers and AoO for Warlord 1, paired opportunists makes this an AoO for both. Either Walord attacks and misses, triggering more AoOs. This only get infinite with mythic combat reflexes, but even without it's possible to make a large amount of attacks as outlined above.
@Seranov:
Mythic Combat Reflexes grants unlimited attacks of opportunity.
Golden Lion Style grants you an attack of opportunity when an ally misses.
If two players take this ability, every time one misses, the other gets to swing, until one hits.
What this means is, to-hit is no longer important, and only damage. Because one of you will eventually hit.
Now, expand that to three people with Golden Lion Style. Every time one of the three misses, the other two get to attack. Repeat as needed until enemy is properly pureed.
Now add paired opportunists (or both), and everytime one person misses, everyone gets another swing... until everyone hits N times.
I'm not sure, but the way I read the last line of the style feat is that a Cavalier can share this with tactician... making it downright nasty.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If the build is meant to totally dominate the world and end the game, why wouldn't the GM just build it before you and use it against you. With great power, something something.
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Okay, mythic shenanigans? Yeah, nobody cares about that. I thought this combo was something involving non-mythic stuff.
If you know full-well this is ridiculous, don't do it. Cavetoad has proven he won't pull punches. If you joined a tristalt game and are somehow considering yourself unoptimized if you're not abusing the rules, I think you need to reevaluate why you're playing the game in the first place.
Even without mythic, they just showed that it creates nasty feedback loops. An eidolon with 5 tails has no hope of hitting with those tail slaps, but because it -does- tail slap, the minotaur with the two-handed axe that does 400 damage per swing gets to -definitely- use all of its attacks of opportunity on mowing down things. Granted, you have to invest a bit more, or be careful with positioning (the right stance or teamwork feats).
Does that make the ability sound -more- reasonable?
I'd say adding a line that limits it from recursion would benefit the feat. And it'd stop mythic infinite swing shenanigans from occurring... as noted above. I don't see that as a 'nobody cares'. You, yourself, are in a mythic game with a PoW character. You -should- care. :P
It's still absolutely absurd without mythic, yeah—essentially, it means that everyone on your team turns all their AoOs into attacks every round. Adding a line about it only being "the first time per round" would balance things seriously.
EDIT: You don't even need an eidolon. Just have your summoner drop a bunch of celestial dogs flanking the enemy... they miss, then you hit, until you're out of AoOs.
No, that's still extremely problematic. Just buy a bunch of attack dogs, summon a bunch of weak allies, or tell your bard to dual-wield dwarven waraxes and watch the extra attacks fly.
The idea of the "bag of puppies test" is that an ability shouldn't become substantially more valuable when you are surrounded by a large number of weak enemies or failing allies, because then it becomes almost impossible not to abuse. It's similar to the reason why, if I were ever running a PoW game, I'd have to instaban half of Silver Crane Style—as long as you can find insects to swat, that style gives you infinite, near-immediate between-combat healing, with no conceivable fluff or system explanation for where the healing comes from.
On a less "my numbers can kill your numbers" note, who else plans to stay here for a kingmaker-esque game? :)
So far, I know of Simon (Wyvaran-sorcerer,bard,summoner) and Champawat (catfolk-fight, investigator, rogue,) and a couple NPC's, I think?
I haven't played kingmaker but I wouldn't mind some sim city goodness, here and there.
As a bard, I'll just be sitting in the corner with some lyres of building.
I actually have that planned to be one of the upgrades for my special item. :)
:p I look forward to it, but it's a long way off. We have to establish the product, first. Once everyone is enjoying Saving Goodwin™, we can really get the ball rolling. Establish a musical arts school, where we train bards and spies, then found our own religion. It only goes uphill from there.
Well, we're doing well so far—there's a large area of mostly unused forest lying around, and once we get a handle on the world we could set up a refugee village.
I think the point is that some people want to forgo the whole "get a handle of the world", "find goodwin" and "get rich and famous" part of things and just go straight to "set up a refuge/shelter/etc".
Personally, I'm less interested in kingdom-building for Mlinzi, though that could definitely change depending on what happens in the game.
Xanya might be interested in building a community (but maybe not a stationary one) after aquiring leadership and/or mythic, but certainly not at this point.
I agree, Mlinzi—while I think some of the other groups might be more interested in hunting/fighting whoever blew up our home, Table 1 seems the most interested in generally exploring what and where the local societies are.
Looks like we'll all be going the same direction no matter what our goal is though ;). But yes in general Xanya is a fan of blowing up the up-blowers.
Shaeyl is of the opinion that clothes, weapons, bags, etc are needed to effectively go find Goodwin.
To make those items the tools need to be made. Tools need to be made to make the tools to make the gear.
So logically, and wizards are by far a logical sort, staying put, and building a solid foundation is paramount.
If CaveToad is interested in realigning any groups based on goals, Shaeyl would rather stay and work on building a settlement here in the valley.
Later on, he'll happily go rescue those groups that rushed off ill-prepared. :)
@Shael:
Out table may have learned that there is a human settlement with weapons and technology far more advanced of the goatlings within walking distance of our starting location... >.> ...sooner or later, we'll wind up communicating that info through golem mail.
For now, though, Table 1 is traveling with goatlings. If the groups all meet up for some reason, we'll give you pointers on what we've learned of the area geography.
See, Hseir doesn't need weapons, clothes, or anything like that.
Doesn't even really need a steady supply of food (Goodberry).
He's much more anxious to get exploring than stay around and create a new settlement.
While I see the benefits of doing so, Hseir-shae would not want any part of it.
I don't even see him taking Leadership at all.
For those interesting in kingdom building that is very much an option, though it may be exceptionally challenging at low levels. If we were to use the specific rules it is near impossible as you need seed money etc. If you are just interested in roughing it and making mud huts for a while and so on, that can be explored, but I am guessing most may get tired of that before long. Building a settlement in the valley can work, but it will be slow going if you plan to start from a neolithic + magic level of technology. Things will play out as time goes on and information becomes available to assist in whatever endeavors people may choose.
Ultimate Campaign also has rules for constructing individual buildings and personal estate holdings, which can make a fine intermediate point on the way to full kingdom building rules (you can hunker down, build a few farms and clear the land while waiting for others to gather resources), but I recommend against doing it here. The lake is sacred land to the goatmen, there are apparently some number of bandits in the region, and until you have permission to trade on the river, etc., it's just not a very good location to start building.
Yeah, so far Table 1 is well on its way to acquiring the basics needed for early-level travel.
Ultimate Campaign also has rules for constructing individual buildings and personal estate holdings, which can make a fine intermediate point on the way to full kingdom building rules (you can hunker down, build a few farms and clear the land while waiting for others to gather resources), but I recommend against doing it here. The lake is sacred land to the goatmen, there are apparently some number of bandits in the region, and until you have permission to trade on the river, etc., it's just not a very good location to start building.
Cool, I will check that out. I do enjoy that stuff conceptually, and I do want it to be part of the campaign for those who want to engage in it. Clearly there are optimal times, places and conditions for it.
We're using the Downtime Rules in another campaign I'm in. They don't mesh up perfectly with Kingmaker (castles and mansions, for instance, are much cheaper in the downtime system from the same book), but I prefer to think of this as "once you're actually building on the city scale and things aren't just a personal project, there's a lot more resources and logistics involved." Certainly, you can convert from downtime to kingdom building much more easily than scaling back down.
The downtime system does normally have costs involved in labor, goods, etc. If people want to start building in the forest, I'd recommend altering the rules slightly so that they can use themselves as labor (at a reduced rate of labor points acquisition) and lumber as "goods" (also at a reduced rate), with this only applying to buildings whose "goods" can be acquired in the forest (log cabin, basic farm, but not something like a smithy or castle)
Right now I'm just thinking we need a place to come back to. It's good for people to feel connected, and if we have a home base we can connect to each other through, that would be wonderful. There's still small scale adventure around an area, and I think I could be able to get both the goat men and the human settlement (we don't know about yet) to help us out.
We just need a couple cabins for people to stay in, and adventure out of. We could provide what we can to the settlements in exchange for tools to start with.
Well... to be honest. The way I intend to play my character, is up-play the 'face' portion. I'm sure several other characters intended to do this as well. Using the social aspect of things (like Diplomacy to gather information), along with developing alliances and friendships will provide much more significant and worthwhile information than wandering around until we find the thing we're looking for.
Along that vein, we have about twice as many 'monsters' as we have players, and those monsters are currently establishing a large base camp at the river. So... I'm focusing much less on the 'build my own castle' at the moment, and much more on the 'build a reputation, and use it to help the fort that is being built' side of things. Not that Maks doesn't want a castle... just... that'll be easier once we can use wall of stone and stone shape. :)
So, can we count you into "Table: Homemakers?" :)
Nah, Table 1 is already established as "avant garde music & dance troupe"