MoF's Hells Rebels

Game Master MordredofFairy

Yeah, I do that all the time as well. If it's anything important, I have to wait a few hours or overnight to edit and find those things. If I edit too soon, I read right errors without noticing them.

Pity on no T-Rex :D
Still, would not want to miss out on those Wings.
Wings are big in Sprite society.

So I'll get that Corgi some other way, possibly. (Ancestral Paragon General Feat at Level 3, maybe).
Still considering what Archetype to go for - Cavalier would be a different option, but not sure Melee is the way to go for a Reach 0 character.
Was considering Archer, for some mounted Archery, so I could pew-pew from Corgi-back...but I suppose it would make sense to wait until we know the full set of characters before locking that in.

Re stat spread - I think my (Lessah's) rolls are 1 point lower then what the point buy would get me. Terrible :p

Re wings - they're awesome!

Re sprite melee - reach weapons are nice. But so are bows! Have you seen that unarmed sprite-beam feat thingy? It looks awfully like something totally awful ... But yet so tempting :p

Re characters - This is the one I had from earlier. Most things are even correct on her! (Not the DCs and to-hit rolls iirc) But some things :p Maybe helpful. Maybe not. But she has wings ^^

Was considering Archer, for some mounted Archery, so I could pew-pew from Corgi-back...but I suppose it would make sense to wait until we know the full set of characters before locking that in.

Or, you know, you could go with a gun. I do recall seeing a 2e gun sourcebook, and I did say all first-party material was allowed. Deck your sprite out in suitably cowboy apparel, be a gun-toting balladeer. You could absolutely make this your personal theme song. Bard as main, gunslinger as archetype, and sniper as your way. Pick up the Independent familiar ability and use your corgi to keep the range open while you snipe. Use the corgi to take cover for the purpose of the Slinger's Reload.

So! I'm 95% sure I'll go Air Kineticist. A bit slippery with mainly ranged or reach attacks. Air has some minor buffs and utility tricks (1st level will be Cooler Message and Minor Aura of Some Speed :p).

To that I'm thinking Psychic archetype at level 2, grabbing some more utility or cool stuff. Hopefully. It'll be Occult magic too, but I think there's enough spells on the list to avoid overlap :)

The main choice right now is if to use Int or Charisma to qualify for it. And that'll probably depend on the what we have in the rest of the party! Leaning towards Int, since skill(-not-point)s are fun.

@Miranda: Are you still looking at Changeling ancestry for your character?

Aye! They're cool and a bit of witchy flavour is nice :)

Cool cool.

I was thinking about a human duelist sort of Rogue. But then I started thinking about how handy darkvision would be for so many things and went down that rabbit hole.

Now I'm making a Fetchling Thief Rogue with Shadow Bloodline Sorcerer and maybe Shadowdancer archetypes if it will all fit.

Neat character concepts.

Thanks for the input, rdknight. I've got a concept kicking around in my head that will heal and frontline, but I just need to work the mechanics out. I've been looking at the warpriest and may go that route, but man, it just leaves me cold a bit. Druid would actually work wonderfully, but the frontline druid archetype seems to be the wildshape one, and 2e doesn't have natural spell for some reason, which makes healing and frontlining an either/or proposition, which I am not wild about either.

How would folks feel about a fighter or barbarian with the field medic background and medic archetype? Would that offer enough healing to keep us on our feet?

With regards to healing, I'd like to remind everyone about the proposed Stamina and Resolve optional rules.

Here, here, and here are some discussions on the pros and cons of the system.

With that out of the way, I'm actually interested to see what sort of background a fighter built around that would have.

And I'm redoing my first batch of tokens entirely. My previous method was somewhat usable, but what I'm doing now produces much better results. Of course, resizing the images for 1-inch token scale still noticeably deforms them, but the images are much clearer than before, so it's not quite the visual assault that it was before :D.

Maps, on the other hand, are still a pain in all the parts. I can get a wonderfully clean image for use as an unmarked player reference, though scaling it up for tactical scale quickly makes it not as clean anymore. But getting anything with text that I want to retain is just... well, I don't want blow out the profanity filter here, so let's leave it at that.

@RD: Will your character hiss and flinch back every time the sun hits them, then mutter angrily about the daystar's light?

@RD: Will your character hiss and flinch back every time the sun hits them, then mutter angrily about the daystar's light?

Nah, my character won't that fresh off the boat, may have even been a while in Absalom and knows their way around. A pair of glasses with smoked lenses and maybe a hat for bright days, but they'll be alright.

I have a first go at the character below. Hopefully i got things right and didn't forget anything. If anyone sees any problems please let me know!

I'm up to the hairline in getting the AV tokens prepped, so I can't spare at the moment the braincells to check the character in detail. But it looks good at first glance. Clarify the crossed-out skill?

I'm assuming you've more or less settled on an origin for your rogue, based on what we talked about most recently with the Onyx Alliance?

Thievery is doubled up from racket and background, so we replace one of them with another skill, correct?

I'm still thinking about background. I'll message you.

Okay, and yes, that's correct.

@GM: Forgot to include languages, so I added them. I've also sent you a PM.

Alright, so we've got Varuzhan and RD done up with ranger and rogue, respectively.

Varuzhan, would you like to dig up some art for your character or should I go ahead and see what I can manage? Keep in mind, the image should be on the smaller side so it doesn't lose too much when I take my utter lack of skills to it :D.

Also, I have a ready-to-go token for your animal companion as well. Just need to know what size (Large or Medium/Small) I need to make it.

I've been looking at the warpriest and may go that route, but man, it just leaves me cold a bit.

How would folks feel about a fighter or barbarian with the field medic background and medic archetype? Would that offer enough healing to keep us on our feet?

I know how you feel. I've always liked the idea of clerical or priestly characters, but in both 1st ed. and 2e I haven't been excited by the Cleric class. I absolutely loved the 1st ed. Inquisitor, but there's no analogous class in 2e.

From looking at forum questions and answers, the consensus seems to be that non magical healing is quite good in 2e. It is mostly limited to out of combat use though. It just takes the skill investment in medicine and perhaps a couple of skill feats. In combat healing is mostly magic.

Fighter or Barbarian should be able to handle non-magical healing just fine with a little wisdom investment, which you'd probably want anyway.

It seems to me this could mean a Champion good be an excellent healer. It has lay on hands for magical healing in combat, and could combine it with non-magical healing out of combat.

That said, there's no reason you should feel like you're obliged to handle healing. My Rogue will have lots of skill boosts and will be trained in medicine. I might be feat starved, not sure, but I could handle some of the healing as well.

I've been hesitant to weigh in on the stamina question so far. Without any actual gameplay experience it's all very theoretical to me, which makes it hard to decide anything about it with confidence. But, time is moving on and something needs to get said I suppose. So here is my very firm position:

1. I like the RP aspect of stamina as getting worn down over time rather than literally wounded, which has always seemed a bit silly to me.

2. I wonder how much extra bookkeeping becomes involved. I am proudly and notoriously against bunches of bookkeeping, to the point I won't ever play a pet class just because of it.

3. I'm certainly willing to give it a try. It seems like the sort of thing that we could start with, but easily revert back to the standard if we decided we don't like it.

4. I'm happy with whatever the majority decides.

In combat healing won't be terribly helpful with the stamina system I think.

Aerokineticist have some limited healing "spells" eventually, nothing to start out with though.

@Sam--Rik'Tik has an avatar photo now. Is that enough for the purpose of icons or do you want me to scrounge up another image? If you do want another image, do you prefer portraits or full body drawings? I can also scrounge up a picture just for the sake of character development and include that in the character profile.

The Croc is Small, I think it's officially a young crocodile. Might become bigger later.

I still need to fix up Rik'Tik's stats based on what I rolled, will definitely do that later.

@Varuzhan: That image will work just fine, it's clear enough to make out who it is and should remain so with my hack-job alteration. I'll also resize a crocodile token accordingly, and mark it in some manner to indicate that this is frend croc, pls no bulli :D.

And you add whatever you want by way of art to the background for everyone else to reference (and this goes for you too, RD, I only need you pick one for the purpose of making a token with).

@Miranda: While there are ways to recover stamina during fights (using Resolve for the most part), it's definitely an indicator of how serious a fight is if your stamina is utterly depleted and you start to take real, lasting (in that you can't simply take 10 or more minutes post-fight to get your wind back) damage.

@RD: Bookkeeping on the S&R system looks incredibly light. Basically, half of your HP (plus Con mod) gained at each level is actually stamina. You have only one additional number, Resolve, to track and that's equal to your key ability's modifier. Resolve is spent only for recovering stamina immediately (via a feat) and stabilizing when dying.

With regards to the aforementioned feat, I've seen some discussion that it seems like a tax, but I'm not to going to mess around with how it's allocated for now; you want in-fight healing with Resolve, you have to pay a feat to get it.

With that out of the way, I'm actually interested to see what sort of background a fighter built around that would have.

Well, it is less fighter and more fanatical family of tengus that live in the swamps/cliffs/forests nearby to Otari; they guard a local sacred tree from loggers and are both animist and worshippers of Chamidu (which is why this flock ended up near Otari to begin with - their ancestors stopped here in their search for the Kalpavendi). As worshippers of Chamidu, they can't refuse to treat an illness, something the local thief's guild has glommed onto, turning that relationship into a cheap source of healing. Though their avian nature can be offputting, the tengu family is little concerned with money, and through their relationship with the local guild, many of the poorer townsfolk now use them for medical services.

I plan on leaning into their avian nature quite a bit, and as the family is shaping up to be pretty animist/totemic in my mind, may go barbarian over fighter.

I absolutely loved the 1st ed. Inquisitor, but there's no analogous class in 2e.

Yes! This is a total bummer IMO, and a role that needs to be filled.

From looking at forum questions and answers, the consensus seems to be that non magical healing is quite good in 2e. It is mostly limited to out of combat use though. It just takes the skill investment in medicine and perhaps a couple of skill feats. In combat healing is mostly magic.

Yeah, it seems like it would be limited to one in-combat heal per person per day, if I'm understanding things correctly? At least in the early going. So, potions for emergencies then...

That said, there's no reason you should feel like you're obliged to handle healing. My Rogue will have lots of skill boosts and will be trained in medicine. I might be feat starved, not sure, but I could handle some of the healing as well.

I don't feel obliged at all - it fits my backstory quite nicely (as it is shaping up in my head at least)!

@Chicken: Interesting background all the way. Chamidu is also a highly appropriate choice for spoiler reasons.

And yes, the Osprey Club would absolutely use that particular belief regarding healing to their benefit. That said, though, Yinyasmera strikes me as very much of a quid-pro-quo sort. Not necessarily out of any sort of innate goodness or decency, mind, but because it keeps things smooth and trouble-free if everyone gets something out of the arrangement (though, naturally, the Osprey Club gets more on its end). So with that in mind, how would your flock benefit? I mean, you mention that there's some payment being given, but money isn't a major concern either.

Also, you are aware that there's a tengu in Otari, right? The owner/proprietor of Crow's Casks, to be specific. How does the flock get on (or not) with her? She's utterly absorbed in her passion of inventing new types of booze (and collecting existing types, too, she doesn't discriminate).

Considering logging in general, does the flock have problems with it? It's the key industry in Otari, with three of its foremost families deeply involved in it and most likely anyone who isn't fishing to earn their living logging instead. So that could easily brew up into a nasty conflict there. But if it's more "leave this tree alone," and the flock is willing to otherwise ignore--(or even work with in some way, such as providing their healing or acting as logger guides/guards--Otari's loggers, that could lead to a much less antagonistic relationship.

Not things you need to have an answer for right away (or even at all), but just consider to help in anchoring your character's background just a bit more firmly.

Okay, so, I play the OG "monsters are not yet balanced, we assumed the players were gonna break the system in half like PF1e" Age of Ashes with a bunch of first timers. That is my primary play experience.

-

To now bullet point:

1. I like the RP aspect of actually getting wounded.

2. Health regeneration between fights is a problem that is already fixed, with Lay on Hands and/or Medicine.

3. The Dying system fixes the problem of in combat healing.

4. What problem then, exactly, is Stamina fixing?

My preferred method of health management is "Alright, you may take a 30 minute rest to heal back to full HP after each combat." So the only time the players don't go into a fight with full HP is if they run directly from one fight to another. Because, if you're looking at a Stamina system, that's really what you want, and there's no reason to complicate it with Resolve points and a second definitely not HP bar.

Interesting points, and I freely admit that I can't answer them at the moment. My lack of familiarity with the 2e rules just doesn't give me the required knowledge or experience. My consideration of the system was based entirely on my experience as a player in PF1 games, where party choices can easily see no dedicated or consistent healing source available, unless the DM either makes a literal healbot DMPC to handle the job or hands out potions and CLW wands like candy corn on Halloween.

There are tons of easy healing options in Pathfinder 2e that either refresh with 10 minute rest or 1 hour cooldown. After a little bit we just started handwaving the healing.

I think the simplest way to A. Not require anyone to take healing options and B. To ensure everyone is full hp at the start of each fight, is to just say that a 30 minute rest gets you back to full HP. At least, that's what my party with a sorcerer with Medicine and a Paladin with Lay on Hands found was our average recovery time when we did do all the math.

I remember one time we has a REALLY rough fight, and had to spend a whole 50 minutes recovering. In game time, out of game time it was just counting how many people needed a heal.

Well, by the old 8 hour 4 fight adventuring day, you could take a 50 minute rest after each fight and fit in 8 fights.

Re: stamina/resolve, this is basically the same ruleset as with Starfinder as I recall it, so I've got some experience with it. It is fine in my opinion. It has been a moment since that game ended and I don't have the best memory, so there is that caveat.

I played a mystic with cure spells (for hp) and very rarely used them, because fights often didn't get to the point where they were needed. Our player with the ability to bolster stamina in combat, however, was much more active on that front.

I didn't find that the system changed much in terms of description. In the end things were still described in terms of hits with all the attendant gore, etc. So, in that game at least, there was little RP difference.

Re: bookkeeping, there is more to keep track of, but I didn't feel as if it was honorous in any way. (and as an aside, like rdknight I also rarely play pet classes because dear gods no, the bookkeeping, the bookeeping...)

Stamina/resolve did make things feel a little more "gamey" to me, for lack of a better word, as most fights kind of went pewpewpew, stop and take a breather, rinse and repeat.

I'm pretty neutral on the idea, and am fine adopting stamina / resolve (or not).

@Chicken: Interesting background all the way. Chamidu is also a highly appropriate choice for spoiler reasons.

OK, excellent!

And yes, the Osprey Club would absolutely use that particular belief regarding healing to their benefit. That said, though, Yinyasmera strikes me as very much of a quid-pro-quo sort. Not necessarily out of any sort of innate goodness or decency, mind, but because it keeps things smooth and trouble-free if everyone gets something out of the arrangement (though, naturally, the Osprey Club gets more on its end). So with that in mind, how would your flock benefit? I mean, you mention that there's some payment being given, but money isn't a major concern either.

I had envisioned that the Osprey Club pays, just very little. It is not an equal relationship by any means, and by and large the tengu don't care very much that it is. But maybe there is something else there, I'll think on this some more.

Also, you are aware that there's a tengu in Otari, right? The owner/proprietor of Crow's Casks, to be specific. How does the flock get on (or not) with her? She's utterly absorbed in her passion of inventing new types of booze (and collecting existing types, too, she doesn't discriminate).

No, I wasn't aware! That's excellent. I'll think on what this means for my tengu clan, but my first thought is that the clan views their "city" brethren with polite bemusement/befuddlement and vice/versa. I feel bad for the proprietor; she's probably constantly explaining how she's not related to weirdos that live in the woods.

Considering logging in general, does the flock have problems with it? It's the key industry in Otari, with three of its foremost families deeply involved in it and most likely anyone who isn't fishing to earn their living logging instead. So that could easily brew up into a nasty conflict there. But if it's more "leave this tree alone," and the flock is willing to otherwise ignore--(or even work with in some way, such as providing their healing or acting as logger guides/guards--Otari's loggers, that could lead to a much less antagonistic relationship.

This is a great question and one I'll give some more thought on. I had envisioned they are only concerned with "their" tree, not the rest of them. I like the idea of them being involved in some way with logging, will think on this some more.

Thanks for some really good feedback and questions - this all takes this PC to some really nice places!

Hm. One suggestion - what if we use the Stamina system, but the HP from Con go to actual HP instead, not Stamina?
That way the HP pool would be larger, and can be replenished with handwaived stuff or in-combat healing.
And the smaller Stamina-Pool would act like some "barrier/shield/temp HP" that you get to replenish a limited number of times per day.

From my perspective, that would accomplish the following:
* If time is of the essence, we can still "press on" even if we run out of Stamina refreshers, just at lower efficiency.
* It kind of represents how we may "tire out" after several combats - but:
* at the same time may reward some rotation from the frontlines, or switch-hitting - if someone depleted their stamina, maybe they can stay back and let someone else take point.

As Nezari said, unless the GM attempts to be cruel, the dying system is a quality-of-life insurance that makes me confident we could go into battles with only HP, missing Stamina, and still come out on top.
We are also likely 6 players, with free archetypes, so that may balance things out a bit.

My main issue with the Stamina is that it "eats" the Con-HP, leaving you with a very small actual health pool that makes you dependent on Stamina. I'd be more eager to try if the HP pool was the larger part and Stamina a kind of "tacked-on buffer".

Also, in case someone does not know about it: Pathbuilder2e
is also available for android, seems to be quite extensive with material available. Some things seem to be behind a paywall, but so far I could build my Sprite quite decently. Some adaptations(like the second background) are necessary, but if does help me get the numbers right :D

Oh dear. I followed that link to the character builder and started playing around with it. I didn't realize it was actually taking me to Tazo's ranger character. I can't put it back the way it was. I am so sorry.

Well, Granny is starting to take shape. Apparently she was an Ulfen Raider in her youth.

Oh dear. I followed that link to the character builder and started playing around with it. I didn't realize it was actually taking me to Tazo's ranger character. I can't put it back the way it was. I am so sorry.

Wait, I don't think you did anything. It looks fine. Maybe you're able to edit whatever but it looks the same on my end.

Re character builder - it says it stores stuff locally. So if you took a peek at Varuzhans character, it probably saved it on your comp. And so when you opened it up again it went "hey I found a character here!". But that's just your local copy of it :)

Rik'Tik is update with new and improved stats and a new skill (Lore: Scouting). He has 18 Str and Dex now, so he could go melee or ranged as needs require. Only thing left to add is a bonus background from AV, which I'll tack on later.

Whew! I'm glad I didn't mess anything up!

Yes, it looks like it's stored locally. I took another look and my changes were still there for me.

Do we have a clearer ETA for the campaign start? I'm surprising myself at how excited I am to get going.

My main issue with the Stamina is that it "eats" the Con-HP, leaving you with a very small actual health pool that makes you dependent on Stamina. I'd be more eager to try if the HP pool was the larger part and Stamina a kind of "tacked-on buffer".

Thank you for articulating this. This bothered me too but I couldn't ever really figure out exactly why.

I like Mordred's suggestion.

Well, Granny is starting to take shape. Apparently she was an Ulfen Raider in her youth.

Neat! My bird looks forward to meeting Granny :)

Rik'Tik is update with new and improved stats and a new skill (Lore: Scouting). He has 18 Str and Dex now, so he could go melee or ranged as needs require. Only thing left to add is a bonus background from AV, which I'll tack on later.

Nice character!

GM Mordred wrote:

My main issue with the Stamina is that it "eats" the Con-HP, leaving you with a very small actual health pool that makes you dependent on Stamina. I'd be more eager to try if the HP pool was the larger part and Stamina a kind of "tacked-on buffer".

Thank you for articulating this. This bothered me too but I couldn't ever really figure out exactly why.

I like Mordred's suggestion.

I'll third this. Gets at my concern with wanting in-combat healing spells to not lose their place.

Whoa, quite a few comments here, let me go through them from quickest answered.

@Nezari: I really want to read your character's background when it's done, it sounds like it's going to be a ride.

@Character Builder: Neat, I'll add it to the expanding list of "this would be useful, when I've got some spare cash to get it."

@Stamina: As I mentioned to Nezari in one of my replies, my interest in Stamina is based on my player experience in 1e with regards to lacking healing options. However, it sounds as if 2e offers a plentitude of healing already in the base rule and stamina would be largely redundant.

If you do decide to use it, and remember that I need a unanimous vote on it, I see no issue with making the change that Mordred suggested and switching from 'X' + Con Stamina and fixed HP per level to 'X' + Con HP and fixed Stamina per level.

@RD: Campaign start is firmly slated for the end of this month or the first (full) week of next month at the latest. I'm chugging right along on what I need to get done on my end, however, so an earlier start is possible.

As to what I'm doing on my end? Well, I'm converting the boxed set and AP pawns from 3D standups into 2D tokens. I actually had most of that done previously, but I found a considerably better method that not only results in a much clearer image that doesn't need my s@!%ty touch-up skills, but is actually faster. This means that I can do, in the time it previously took to convert one token, a dozen or so. Still, it's not a perfect process and the images are definitely going to be a bit squashed or stretched, but you should still be able to readily identify everything when it's in play (no "is that blob of color a kobold or an ooze," for example).

Second is extracting and converting maps and any useful player handouts. The latter is easy, the former is a bit more effort intensive; I need to get the maps out with any gridlines intact and then figure out how to scale them up to 1x1 inch token scale without losing too much detail or clarity. Fortunately, I only need to do a few maps to start, considering what our campaign pace will be, and almost all of those few are already done.

Third is reading through the AP and making notes, mostly on sidequests that are available. Because a lot of those can potentially be started from Otari instead of where the players actually encounter them, and having the party receive a "hey, could you look into 'X' for me while you're poking around" request from someone in town that they're associated with is a bit more believable than "oh, you found 'X' while you were in there? Lol, yeah, I totally forget about that, thanks."

But in addition to the sidequests, I'm also looking for things that I can tailor to the characters specifically, get you all more involved in both them and the campaign.

Last is actually reading the rules themselves, and I suspect that I'm going to be doing so even as we start rolling dice; thank goodness for PbP :D!

Here is the campaign's discussion thread.

In case it was missed this is the replacement thread with a functional gameplay section.

Thanks, also for the PM. On other news, this week is as awful as I feared, timing-wise. But before I finish Pfil up, I'll make sure to get gameplay moving here again, as well - I hope to find some time tomorrow or friday. :D
Thanks for the patience.

Pokepokepokepoke.

Ditto! Ditto.

You sure you want to poke the dragon? :P

You sure you want to poke the dragon? :P

Pokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepoke.

ROAAA.....meow.

Thanks for just poking and not slapping me silly.

I was procrastinating as there's been quite some stuff going on in RL lately, but I did totally have time and instead relaxed with some video game so not even making excuses.
(To be clear, self-care with video game relaxation is totally important, but I could have taken some of that time to post instead and STILL have played - my mental state locked into overall procrastination mode was to blame.)

That said, I did have to find some misplaced notes(which prevented me from moving forward when I did find some time to post in the other games) and look them up and will look for them tomorrow after work.

Did find what I needed. Albeit late. I will, however, check through them now and take what I need to the office with me tomorrow so I can compose a post there.

I got to play some BattleTech with a new person today, so I'm a bit drained. Promise to rub some more braincells together tomorrow or this weekend :)