While we wait, I figured I’d go ahead and see what you guys thought, out of character, about how we should go about the initial development of this little nation.
Firstly, we need a name of our county and the capitol. Anyone have any suggestions?
Next, how do you guys want to go about the initial progression? Should we claim one hex (Stag Lord Fort Hex) and maybe just focus on our city at first? Or claim a few hexes with city on backburner? I have plans for both routes in my own mind, but I think a the initial focus on the city feels more natural and realistic.
To that end, what do you guys think of preparing multiple city districts initially? I say this because to me it seems like we could have a more realistic feeling city and layout if we didn’t just plop buildings down filling up District A before opening up District B. We could actually have a somewhat residential District with houses, inns, taverns, and businesses of that sort. A governmental district with official buildings. A Nobles District (hey, the Kintargo in me is showing). Etc etc etc.
I feel like limiting ourselves to one district until it’s full will lead to erratic city layouts. And as we get a general feel for what each district is going to hold, we can then fill them appropriately.
Also, when we get to expanding, I think we ought to secure the immediate area we have explored first, then work north acquiring resource points, and then get Oleg’s into the fold as well as those lovely Plains hexes in the Northeast. Then maybe get the rest of our westward side filled in before moving into the Narlmarches.
Again, these are just my thoughts. What do y’all think?
I think we've already started the process of upgrading Oleg's trading post into the first city.
I'm not above continuing to call it Oleg's, BTW. There's no need to artificially create a name instead of accepting the name that occurs naturally.
I've got nothing useful for nation names to date. I'm hoping for inspiration.
>>>Firstly, we need a name of our county and the capitol. Anyone have any suggestions?
>>>Next, how do you guys want to go about the initial progression? Should we claim one hex (Stag Lord Fort Hex) and maybe just focus on our city at first? Or claim a few hexes with city on backburner? I have plans for both routes in my own mind, but I think a the initial focus on the city feels more natural and realistic.
>>>To that end, what do you guys think of preparing multiple city districts initially? I say this because to me it seems like we could have a more realistic feeling city and layout if we didn’t just plop buildings down filling up District A before opening up District B. We could actually have a somewhat residential District with houses, inns, taverns, and businesses of that sort. A governmental district with official buildings. A Nobles District (hey, the Kintargo in me is showing). Etc etc etc.
>>>Also, when we get to expanding, I think we ought to secure the immediate area we have explored first, then work north acquiring resource points, and then get Oleg’s into the fold as well as those lovely Plains hexes in the Northeast. Then maybe get the rest of our westward side filled in before moving into the Narlmarches.
Ruler (Cha) - Darian/Isabel
Councilor (Wis/Cha) - Svetlana?
General (Str/Cha) - Kesten
Grand Diplomat (Int/Cha) -
High Priest (Wis/Cha) - Lisl
Magister (Int/Cha) - Freya
Marshal (Dex/Wis) - Josef
Spymaster (Dex/Int) - Jory
Treasurer (Int/Wis) - Oleg
Warden (Con/Str)
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Name - I like Silverhold, since Darian and I are from the silver city, and there's a silver mine (run by kobolds) not a million miles away. Anyone else feel free to veto.
As to building plans... with a small amount of metagame knowledge, and simply looking at the map - starting at the Stag Lord fort is a MUCH better idea than starting at Oleg's. The central position is golden and the starting bonus for going there is good. So I'd say start at the fort and look to build up to Oleg's.
In terms of the first few turns, I say we take a hefty amount of time - 6 months minimum, probably a year would be better, to get our kingdom running. In terms of the kingdom itself I think we need to focus on economy and stability. We'll be able to grow much faster in the long term if we can keep our stability strong (and therefore hit our control DC regularly).
Multiple city districts - sure :) Honestly I'd recommend not using the city map grid, its an extra layer of complication I don't think is needed, which would mean we could simply fluff city organisation, but if people want to play town planner! :D
Jory's expansion plan looks good to me - those plains should produce some lovely farms. We could build Oleg's into a second settlement at some point too.
Roles are decided I think. We (D and I) can do the job of the GD without taking the role (since there isn't a vacancy penalty I think) so Darian and I can split that between us as we need. It makes sense that we as rulers act as the chief diplomats anyway.
I like Akiros as Warden, that way he has to work with Jory, Kesten and Josef, and not so much with us girls. Darian can check in on him too and keep him away from any women at all if that's what he prefers! We'll take care of the important stuff like education and money! :D Besides, I'm always in favour of a redemption, even if the guy we're redeeming doesn't like me much! If not then Katrina might be interested in the job.
Silverhold - I dig it!
I think we've already started the process of upgrading Oleg's trading post into the first city.
Well, we had thrown 1,160 gp at it, using basic downtime rules, for a Carpenter. Using UC kingdom rules, that’s not even half of a BP. A Mill (6 BP) or a Trade Shop (10 BP) are the closest things to that. Maybe DBH will let us change that coin allocation towards a percentage of a BP dedicated to Oleg’s later?
Jory: You and I seem to basically be thinking alike on all fronts.
Isabel: I like that name for the city/Capitol. But what about the nation? As to the grid, I don’t care to help manage it. We seem to have to because of the necessity to track the number of Districts we have for our Size rating. Unless Lisl would prefer to, being the Priestess of the God of Cities, lol.
And there is a vacancy penalty for Grand Diplomat:
Vacancy Penalty: Stability decreases by 2. The kingdom cannot issue Diplomatic or Exploration edicts.
So...yeah...we need to fix that.
Also, I’m open to Akiros being brought into a position so long as we, in character, learn more about him as well as his loyalty.
Side note each full district = 9,000 population.
1 full one makes us a small city
2 makes us a large city
3+ makes us a metropolis.
I’m personally thinking we should lay out 4 districts in total. Should be plenty of space to build whatever, and we can do so in an organized fashion. And it’d be a nice, large square grid to work with.
I also find it amusing that building even one lot worth of buildings automatically bumps you to Small Town population. Haha!
If anyone is online and wants to do some back and forth RP, I’m flipping from day to night shift for tomorrow night, and desperately will be trying to stay awake and distract myself for a few hours. So feel free to engage me in game if you’d like to help a brother out!
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What's your timing on that? I'm in the UK so I'm way out of your timezone but that might help here :)
Silverhold will be the city and could easily be the nation in time. We start off with a town so going for a 'kingdom name' is massive vanity! :D The Viscounty of Silverhold works fine anyway if people like it.
As to Grand Diplomat... maybe we'll get a few more NPC's as we start book 2 - they write the books for parties of 4 so they must have written more in to cover the roles - let's not worry about it until we need to.
Sorry for the delay, I've been looking over book 2, and the kingdom building rules and whimpering a lot. :)
First things first. On the site of your new capital?
Oleg’s Trading Post: The trading post is a versatile structure built to serve as a place of business. If the PCs decide to found a city in this hex, they can incorporate Oleg’s as a free Shop, Stable, or Watchtower in their city grid (once chosen, the function of Oleg’s within the new city cannot be changed).
Temple of the Elk: Although the Temple of the Elk is partially ruined, building a city here gives the PCs a head start on a Temple, halving the initial cost of building such a structure.
The Stag Lord’s Fort: Located at the heart of the Greenbelt on a defensible hill near a plentiful source of water, fishing, and trade, the Stag Lord’s Fort may be the single best place to place a capital city. The fort itself gives the PCs a head start on building a castle, halving the initial cost of such a structure. In addition, if the PCs make this site their capital city, their nation gains a +1 bonus
on Economy, Loyalty, and Stability due to its centralized location and ease of defense.
Sorry for the delay on my end. I'm away from home, using a mobile device, handling family obligations for the holiday, and trying to craft a sufficiently epic post for the wedding scene.
No worries, holiday weekend!
I’m still partial to the Stag Lord site....maybe Lisl can conduct some purification ritual...;)
Isabel: I didn’t last long, fell asleep about 1:30 AM EST...
Silverhold as both names works too, has a very Game of Thrones feel to that. Though I just noticed there is also a city in Brevoy named Silverhall.
Yeah, I’m firmly voting for the Stag Lord Fort as our starting spot. We fix the fort into a proper castle ASAP for defenses and to be rid of the ruined eye sore, then go from there.
First turn, probably build a lot of Houses and an Inn (the Silver Raven?). Then next turn another House and then fix the Castle?
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I think we'll be able to get the castle in the first turn - makes more sense to do so I think. And starting on the Stag Lord fort is definitely the best idea!!!! The mechanical benefits alone are wonderful! :)
I'll have to wait a little unitl the DM is ready but I think the Castle, a house and an inn in the first turn are all viable. (Love the Inn name too Darian! :))
At our kingdom size, based on the Ultimate Campaign Kingdom Rules, we can only build one building a turn until we are Size 10. This doesn’t count the first housing building each turn.
The first House, Mansion, Noble Villa, or Tenement your kingdom builds each turn does not count against this number.
I simply chose House and Inn because that would give all the laborers/citizens a place to live while we got the castle done.
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Questions for the players:
We need to recruit NPC's IC!
How long are we going to spend on this before going adventuring again? I'd say a year (so 12 turns) should be enough to get us started, maybe 18 months.
Are we ok with NG as our kingdom alignment?
Questions for the GM:
1. Can we have stats for the NPC's! :) [Str/Cha for Kesten, Cha/Wis for Svetlana, Int/Wis for Oleg and Str/Con for Akiros if they're all willing to play ball]
2. Is Akiros trustworthy? (Do you want someone to RP this through first?)
3. Is it 50BP we get to start with?
I've started working on a nice spreadsheet version of the kingdom building sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h0pQIClgwENxVqWddPdQSWGEGUDt4gNLkBq lLb_E0us/edit?usp=sharing
That's the link - perhaps it could go at the top of the page if it's working? I'm happy to do the majority of the book-keeping, but if people want to play with exactly how the settlement buildings are laid out (or anything else for that matter) then please do!
We'll need a map of some sort too to mark what we've taken...
@Darian: where shall we put our combined Charisma scores? I'm thinking either stability (to make sure we don't fail control checks early) or economy (to make sure we get lots of money early on).
@Jory: where do you want to put your bonus as spymaster? I'd be tempted to say put it wherever Darian and I don't! :)
I feel like we’ve done a decent job of attempting that, with our bandit reform program.
Ivar
Ludi
Katrina
Topper
So long as nothing in game comes up to force our hand, I’m fine with 6-18 months worth of turns.
Haha, I see that.
I’m inclined to say let’s see where things stack up without our bonus, then toss it where it is needed.
If we can reliably make control DC’s, or keep Unrest to 0 via buildings, I’m inclined to say put it in Economy.
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Control DC is going to be 22 in turn 1, we'll be getting something like +7 if Jory puts his bonus there...
1 point of unrest isn't bad though because building a house every turn fixes that - so we wouldn't have to worry too much. Our combined +5 to economy would help get us another BP (or 2) per turn :)
I can handle the kingdom map and city district maps, if you guys would like me to.
I have set up a map of the region we have explored on an old campaign roll20 page I used when I attempted to run a Kingmaker game once before. If you don’t have an account, it is free.
Let me know how this works for you guys. The map itself is a blank copy of the map with all portions of the Stolen Lands linked together as they would in game. I’ve “hidden” the parts we have yet to explore. For knowing what is in each hex, though, I think we should stick to DBH’s map, and use this one exclusively to mark our borders and such. I plan on using another campaign tab entirely to track our cities and settlements, but will do that when the time comes proper.
I outlined a region at the top in green, which I figured was Brevoy’s border. If I am wrong, DBH, just lemme know and I will adjust.
From what I grok of the rules (are the Ultimate Campaign changes reflected in the SRD Kindom Building rules?) I’m inclined to add my bonus to Economy early.
Link works for me
I glanced at your spreadsheet, looks like a good one.
As to the layout of Silverhold, here is what I’m currently leaning towards for the first 2 months (using my proposed 4 District Layout):
That is also on my Roll20 link in another window, I just didn’t want to move it off the overall map for now.
I figure Month 1 we should go House and Inn, to provide housing for people and a temporary place to stay for newcomers and travelers until their own houses are built.
Then, Month 2, we fix the fort into Castle Silverhold, then the discount it provides, build some Noble Villas nearby for the rest of the rulers to have nice lodgings deserving their new (or regained) stations.
Then we see how we are doing and go from there.
I figure we’d build the city (and assume the fort is located at) at the juncture of the Tuskwater and the Shrike River. That gives us two water borders and two land borders. Plopping the castle in the nook of the 2 water borders seems like a logical place for the main part of the cities defenses.
Darian - your link is locked. Do you want permission requests?
Now?
Good to go
NPC's
Akiros Ismort. Str. 14 Dex. 12 Con. 16 Int. 10 Wis. 8 Cha. 15
Desired role - General. Best role - Warden.
Description - aimless. Attitude - Indifferent.
Kesten Garess. Str. 17 Dex. 8 Con. 13 Int. 10 Wis. 12 Cha. 14
Desired role - Warden. Best role - General.
Description - Responsible. Attitude - Friendly.
Oleg Leveton. Str. 11 Dex. 9 Con. 10 Int. 12 Wis. 15 Cha. 8
Desired role - Treasurer. Best role - Treasurer.
Description - Grumpy. Attitude - Friendly.
Svetlana Leveton. Str. 8 Dex. 9 Con. 10 Int. 11 Wis. 12 Cha. 15
Desired role - None. Best role - Councilor.
Description - Kind. Attitude - Friendly.
Ludi Tiskard. Str. 14 Dex. 15 Con. 14 Int. 12 Wis. 10 Cha. 8
Desired role - None. Best role - ???.
Description - Silent. Attitude - Hopeful. (You've kept your word to her and turned things around in the Stolen lands)
Katrina Ankone. Str. 14 Dex. 15 Con. 14 Int. 12 Wis. 10 Cha. 8
Desired role - Under Kesten. Best role - ???.
Description - Cheerful. Attitude - Hopeful.
Any of the three NPC’s we’ve gathered to talk about this (Kesten and the Levetons) have any input on anything in character? I’m interested to see their outlook on all this.
Ruler (Cha) - Darian/Isabel
Councilor (Wis/Cha) - Svetlana
General (Str/Cha) - Kesten
Grand Diplomat (Int/Cha) -
High Priest (Wis/Cha) - Lisl
Magister (Int/Cha) - Freya
Marshal (Dex/Wis) - Josef
Spymaster (Dex/Int) - Jory
Treasurer (Int/Wis) - Oleg
Warden (Con/Str) - Akiros
Do we want to make Ludi or Katrina our Diplomat for now? Their Int would get a +1...better than a -2.
Also, if we use the goods from the Stag Lord haul for extra BP, like we discussed, all we need to do is kick in an extra 896 from the group loot fund to get an extra 3 BP to work with.
Gonna do this here as the RP for it will come after the wedding, but Darian will take some time getting more personal with Kesten, Oleg, Svetlana, and Akiros. Trying to get to know them, become closer friends, etc.
Here are the Diplomacy rolls to improve their attitudes, using the rules for the skill. Going right down the line of the list you posted:
I dunno what DC “Hopeful” would be for the other two...so I’ll hold off rolling for now.
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I'll do Ludi and Katrina anyways - my projects :)
Should be enough for both of them I'd imagine. Katrina may be the best diplomat, given that she's the cheerful one - but she wants to work with Kesten, so probably best to leave her there.
I'll talk to Ludi about being Diplomat for now :)
I've put Katrina as Royal Enforcer for the moment - that way she's working closely with Kesten/Akiros and doing something useful!
We'll take note of the 1BP in Oleg's. Can't spend it for some time but if it's there then that's great :). Happy to throw in the group money to get some more BP - having the extra seed fund at the start will help!
Putting D&I's ruler bonus into stability, we're looking at:
Econ: +14
Loyalty: +12
Stability: +17
Control DC: 23 (20 + 1 Hex + 2 districts (because Darian wants to spread everything out! :P))
We're also at 1d3 consumption/turn because of festivals - we can lower that but it will give us negatives to loyalty and economy. If we want to be a bit riskier we could put all our eggs into Economy (which would get us 2 more BP/turn at a much higher risk of failed stability checks and +1 unrest - what do people think?)
Are we ready/willing to begin kingdom building turns? The first couple are more of less planned out, so I'll start doing the crunchy stuff once people say they're ready for it!
On that note - do we want a separate thread for Kingdom Building, or shall we do it all here?
I'm driving home tonight and will be able to update tomorrow.
Kesten - He was depressed when he first arrived at Oleg's. Seeing this as a dead-end post and the last step in his fall from grace. Since then he's seen you remove the bandit threat from the region and get a revival in trade and prospects started. Getting him recruits and gifting him with equipment made him start thinking of this post as an opportunity to become a leader again. He's seen you turn former enemies into reliable troops and is coming around to that way of thinking. Turning rough recruits into good soldiers appeals to him. Which is why he'd be a good general.
Oleg - He was a surly, grumpy man looking to get away from civilization and it's evils when he arrived here. your actions have given him hope again. He's a good choice as treasurer as he's a hard bargainer who counts every coin. But he also knows a kind word or action can gain you far more than gold will.
Svetlana - Loves her husband and is very grateful to the party for giving him a new outlook on life again. She loves the feeling of a growing community that is starting in the Stolen lands, and tries to help anyone who needs a hand. She makes a good Councilor because she wants people to get along and cares for others.
All three are interested in moving to the south where you'll build your new city. Oleg and Svetlana accept that the trading post will remain the lesser focus until Silverhold is up and running. While it's becoming profitable it will be little more than a place to collect furs and pelts for some time. Once things are more settled and the trading post is being built up they expect to move back to it ad make it the gateway between your kingdom and Brevoy.
Awesome! What about our buddy Akiros?
Thanks for getting a jump on the bookkeeping, Isabel
Stability is probably the most important stat, since it's necessary to do anything. Economy next when you're starting out, to build BP.
Note that if we put our 3k gold in as 3 BP, it is much, much harder to take it out. Since even small improvements start at 6 BP (mill, smithy, etc.), 3 BP is not much of a difference. I vote that we keep it as liquid assets so that we can improve personal gear, since we will still be doing adventuring.
Don't forget that using the Stag Lord's fort as our base gives us a +1 bonus to each of Economy, Loyalty, and Stability.
That is a solid point. I suppose we can hang onto it as is for now, and if we need it later we can always transfer it into BP then. And if we get to reliably staying stable and building a treasury, we can do with it what we will.
Hope everyone had a good holiday. I've stuffed my back again and am taking a painkiller and heading to bed. Normal service resumes tomorrow.
Hope you recover well.
Isabel - By what title should Darian and Isabel go by? The charter clearly gives us the purview to consider ourselves a new Kingdom. And since most other titles (duke/duchess, baron/baroness, etc) still assume allegiance to a higher authority, I am kinda leaning towards King/Queen, despite our small holdings. Thoughts?
Others - What would you each like your own positions to be called in game? Are you each fine with them as is?
Something I would eventually like to do is grant each Rulig PC/NPC that desires it their own lands and holdings in our kingdom, much like Game of Thrones style. That’ll take some time, of course, so that we have enough territory to divvy up appropriately, but I think it would be very thematic and realistic to do so. Plus it is already the style of governance in the nation that spawned ours, so it should feel natural to the characters. What do y’all think?
Not all of the characters would want this, but I could see perhaps Jory, Lisl, Kesten, Oleg, and maybe a couple others being interested in this. We already know Oleg intends to return north eventually. Maybe his holdings could be in that area.
I suppose you can pick any title you want, but most NPCs will consider you a jumped-up bandit lord until you have several years and several towns (and possibly several military victories) under your belt. :)
While Lisl is nominally "high priest," it's actually up to the church to make that decision. Declaring myself "high priest" would be akin to making the church of England, which would mean Bad Things with respect to the very strict and legalistic church of Abadar. What will likely happen is that Lisl will pen a specific letter and send it off to the church in Restov and see what they decide. Since they likely don't have anyone to spare on a project like this, that'll probably mean that Lisl will wind up as a bishop or something.
As for land grants and territories, that's easy to do a few years (gametime) down the road when we have multiple towns. Each person can have a hometown to focus on. That way everyone gets one place where they can make the building decisions, decide what that town is flavored like, and have a home that suits their tastes. Lisl would probably run a town with lots of business. Freya might oversee a rustic lodge in the woods. All of them would ultimately be part of the kingdom and subject to Darian and Isabel's rules, but we would be subinfeudated (gods I love using that word) and able to make our own decisions about the growth of our towns.
At level 8 I get Leadership as a bonus feat from one of my domains, so the cohort that I take will depend on our needs as well - if we have a vacancy, or someone isn't able to fill a role or doesn't want to, I will likely pick a cohort for the job.
I suppose you can pick any title you want, but most NPCs will consider you a jumped-up bandit lord until you have several years and several towns (and possibly several military victories) under your belt. :)
Oh, I’m well aware we will have 0 Diplomatic respect/clout. Just unsure of what title to go by for RP. Maybe we can just go by Lord and Lady for now.
While Lisl is nominally "high priest," it's actually up to the church to make that decision. Declaring myself "high priest" would be akin to making the church of England, which would mean Bad Things with respect to the very strict and legalistic church of Abadar. What will likely happen is that Lisl will pen a specific letter and send it off to the church in Restov and see what they decide. Since they likely don't have anyone to spare on a project like this, that'll probably mean that Lisl will wind up as a bishop or something.
Maybe not a High Priest if the church of Abadar, true enough, but High Preistess of Silverhold...that is our purview to assign, ;-P
[quite=Lisl]As for land grants and territories, that's easy to do a few years (gametime) down the road when we have multiple towns. Each person can have a hometown to focus on. That way everyone gets one place where they can make the building decisions, decide what that town is flavored like, and have a home that suits their tastes. Lisl would probably run a town with lots of business. Freya might oversee a rustic lodge in the woods. All of them would ultimately be part of the kingdom and subject to Darian and Isabel's rules, but we would be subinfeudated (gods I love using that word) and able to make our own decisions about the growth of our towns.
Exactly what I had in mind, and I’d like to get there soon as we can do each of us has our own little cut o land to play with.
At level 8 I get Leadership as a bonus feat from one of my domains, so the cohort that I take will depend on our needs as well - if we have a vacancy, or someone isn't able to fill a role or doesn't want to, I will likely pick a cohort for the job.
That’s the same with me. I’ve got plans for my cohort choice as I detailed earlier, a Hound Archon, with hopes that when I’m high enough level DBH will let me possibly trade it in for a Dragonkin cohort.
Maybe not a High Priest if the church of Abadar, true enough, but High Preistess of Silverhold...that is our purview to assign, ;-P
*pushes up medieval history nerd glasses*
Priestly titles are ecclesiastical, meaning that the church has a vested interest in controlling them. That's why in Catholic and Orthodox churches, a bishop or other authority is appointed by the church, not chosen by the people in the community - your priest is sent to you by the church because the church is the one that has the say in matters of your soul. You don't get to pick, and neither does the local sovereign. If a local sovereign tries to pick who's the local priest/bishop/archbishop/cardinal/whatever, you wind up in a fight with the church. Historically, this kind of tug-of-war meant that either you'd have the church insisting on its role, or a ruler might subvert the church if the ruler was powerful enough to be able to make his choice stick, or they might go to war. The aforementioned Church of England exists because the king of England couldn't get a divorce/annulment approved so he appointed himself his own Pope!
In practical terms we want to keep the church of Abadar happy, because we will almost certainly have enemies as we expand and we don't need church enemies in addition to civic ones. There's some friction because Lisl is not Lawful Neutral, so our best bet is to try to convince the church that their best interest is to let her be "officially" in charge (even if they decide to go behind her back) so that they can make nice with us and we can all be friendly - and if we succeed in growing and establishing a successful kingdom, it's all good PR for the church. If we fail, they can just say that Lisl was "unorthodox" (due to the alignment difference) and use her as a scapegoat.
*surrenders*
Something I would eventually like to do is grant each Rulig PC/NPC that desires it their own lands and holdings in our kingdom, much like Game of Thrones style. That’ll take some time, of course, so that we have enough territory to divvy up appropriately, but I think it would be very thematic and realistic to do so. Plus it is already the style of governance in the nation that spawned ours, so it should feel natural to the characters. What do y’all think?
This sounds like a really interesting idea. I think we ought to see where the roleplay and story leads us, of course. I'm not sure how closely the adventuring aspects pair with the kingdom building (haven't read ahead!), though I suppose that is largely left up to the GM.
I am SO flying blind at this point. I haven't heard or seen anything I think I need to argue against.
As we lay out Silverhold, we need to remember to put seriously important things like tanneries and refineries DOWNRIVER. That would put the noble district above the castle, in the Y.
Yeah, I agree. That’s partly why I put the Noble Villas where I did. But I hadn’t thought of the tanneries and such. I’ll ask sure the district to our left is reserved for that sort of thing. And the governmental buildings will be near the castle, and the Noble district will be above and around the Villas.
That’s my current layout plan, but I’m open to more good input.