Kingmaker: A Light in the Dark (Inactive)

Game Master JDPhipps

Killed? Derrick's fate there was left off-screen, it'd be a little naive to assume he died... especially in Ravenloft ;)

Killed? Derrick's fate there was left off-screen, it'd be a little naive to assume he died... especially in Ravenloft ;)

Hah!

One day the group will revisit Paradon and then the fate of Derrick will be revealed, unless this Loup Garou kills you all then not so much. ;-)

I've never even played Ravenloft and now it's starting to scare me.

I have most of the numbers done, and the backstory is mostly written. I just need to get the interesting bits finished and posted, and get his gear squared away.

Jon, I put a couple of questions at the end of my last post, but didnt see an answer:

Would it be allowable to use the human favored class bonus for the skald?

Given his background and focus on drumming, would you be okay with me using Perform(percussion) to mimic bluff and sense motive instead of Perform(sing)

Sorry, forgot them.

You, like any other half-human, are eligible for human options for classes, feats, etc.

I always found Versatile Performance to be kinda silly in all honesty, so sure. I guess singing works a little bit for Bluff but how it has anything to do with Sense Motive is so beyond my ability to rationalize it that drumming doesn't seem like too far of a stretch. If you can come up with a way that it actually makes sense that's even better, but if not you can still do it.

from a thematic standpoint you could try to justify it as matching the beats to heartbeats. The faster you go might represent a racing pulse from lying. Though you would be talking to someone while drumming which is rather weird.

I've always felt that Versatile Performance is more about the actual performing than just the medium. Like Sing for example. Each song has it's own tone. They can be somber or happy or exciting, so a singer needs to know how to make someone feel that to get the point of the song across, even if they don't feel it. So learning how to fake that emotion and how to get someone to feel it when they hear the song is important to performing well. Similarly, they also need to know how to read their audience so they know how people are responding to their songs. They can't perform properly if they can't tell if people are excited or bored or moved or whatever. So Bluff and Sense Motive can easily make sense if you think of them as additional skills that part of performing rather than just something you magically become good at by learning to sing.

Annika, that's a good explanation.

That said, sense motive by drumming still seems pretty weird. I'm not necessarily against it if there's a good explanation, but at face value it seems pretty strange and min-maxy.

True, but at base what does drumming really have to do with Handle Animal? What do keyboard instruments have to do with Diplomacy or Intimidate? What do string instruments have to do with Bluff? Some of them, like Act or Oratory make some degree of sense but a lot of them just seem to me to have been invented to give a bard something to do.

Well, not all of them are perfect, but I could make some sense out of them.

Animal training is about association. A dog will never understand what the word 'fetch' actually means, but once you train them properly, they understand that when they hear 'fetch', they're supposed to get what you want and bring it. But you can train an animal to respond to any sound. I trained my dog to sit when I snapped, come when I clapped, and heel when I tapped my leg. So training animals to respond to basic sounds, like the sound of a drum, is certainly possible. Kind of a stretch, but it works.

Keyboard I would give the same explanation I give percussion for Intimidate. They both can easily make very loud, intense sounds. Someone who's skilled at them knows how to frighten or intimidate someone with their instrument, so they can translate the skills into actually intimidating people.

Bluff and Diplomacy I'd give the same explanations I detailed above. Performing has a definite element of manipulating how people feel, and while playing an instrument isn't the same as being a skilled liar, knowing how to influence people is inherently part of being a skilled performer. Bluff and Diplomacy function very similarly after all, it's just a matter of how honest you're being about your own feelings in the process of getting someone else to do what you want.

I get that you can stretch some of them, but even with making people feels things in a performance it doesn't really translate. You're more doing that through the music you play and it's often the (written) music doing that work moreso than you, you know? I can see where you come up with these associations but most of them feel like a stretch in order to, like I said, give bards something for their dead levels. Especially when you look at someone of the ones that do work, like Dance giving a boost to Acrobatics and Fly. Oratory makes perfect sense as well. I can actually understand Percussion helping with Handle Animal, and while I feel its a stretch I think it's less of one than other things.

I guess the reason it falls apart for me is because even though some of these things are associated, they are not associated through the performer. If you're playing a piece that is already written, anyone who plays it well will elicit that response. A piano player may play scary music but it doesn't necessarily help them actually know how to scare people at all, because they're just following the motions.

Still, an interesting conversation. I've toyed with replacing Versatile Performance with something else for a while now actually, but I can never think of something that fits.

Donkor has it swapped out for Channel Energy ;-)

One thing to remember is that bards aren't going through the motions. Music and art have a real, tangible, supernatural power in Pathfinder. Anyone can have ranks in Perform, but only a bard understands and has the power to use those ranks to affect other people. Hell, the entire concept behind Masterpieces is that certain works of art are so powerful that they literally carry magical effects when performed. Bards aren't just the random guy on the street who plays the lute for copper pieces. They're arcane artists who understand their medium on such a level that they can actually magically alter the world with it.

If anyone can't tell yet, Bard is one of my favorite classes.

Hmm, I suppose that is a good point. It feels a little bit like using 'a wizard did it' but in this case I suppose it does make sense. The magic of their music is influencing their other abilities. What a neat way to think about it. I really enjoy that explanation of how it works, truth be told. It changes my whole perspective on Versatile Performance as an ability. Thanks for that thought, I love when stuff like that happens.

I remember when I was much younger I thought that bards sucked... oh, what a fool I was! I didn't understand at all how powerful buffing spells were or that a bard that could be a serious combatant with all their own buffs up. Of course, I also thought fighters were the best class ever.

Now, bards are also a favorite class of mine. Still never lost my soft spot for rogue, however.

Glad I said it then :)

Seriously though, I always like to think that player class means something, so I like to try to have a good reason why each class is special. It makes PCs feel like someone special to be when you're in the game.

Of course, I also thought fighters were the best class ever.

And you were damn right. For me, a man who loves a tad too much playing The Hero(tm), the Holy Triad is Paladin-Fighter-Ranger.

That said, I've played every single class out there on 3.5 Ed -barring weird Incarnum s!$!- and I simply enjoy heroic themes.

Regarding my Grenadier, I need to port it to an alias, and I hope to have it done tonight or tomorrow morning.

Thanks, Jon, I forgot about the half-human thing. I should have him finished tonight.

Annika, that was a perfect explanation. It was a hard road, but I have come to love the bard also. I am looking forward to giving the skald an honest try...

Man, I just base everything I like about bards and Versatile Performance on Miguel from The Road to El Dorado. Tell me this isn't helping with a Bluff check.

As a side note, I'm not sure whether to be surprised that there's a wiki for that film.

El Dorado can be pretty much summed up as "When the party's rogue and bard go on a solo adventure"

As a side note, I'm partial to the Atlantis movie. Just another cartoon movie that reminds me of an RPG campaign.

Atlantis the Lost Empire is a very underrated film in my opinion. Though I could say that about a lot of the non-princess Disney movies.

Man, I just base everything I like about bards and Versatile Performance on Miguel from The Road to El Dorado. Tell me this isn't helping with a Bluff check.

As a side note, I'm not sure whether to be surprised that there's a wiki for that film.

Or intimidate, perhaps...

Loup Blanc wrote:

Man, I just base everything I like about bards and Versatile Performance on Miguel from The Road to El Dorado. Tell me this isn't helping with a Bluff check.

As a side note, I'm not sure whether to be surprised that there's a wiki for that film.

Or intimidate, perhaps...

That's a good point, that's some real stink eye going on there.

MisterLurch wrote:

Loup Blanc wrote:

Man, I just base everything I like about bards and Versatile Performance on Miguel from The Road to El Dorado. Tell me this isn't helping with a Bluff check.

As a side note, I'm not sure whether to be surprised that there's a wiki for that film.

Or intimidate, perhaps...

That's a good point, that's some real stink eye going on there.

True, and at that point of the film it could be argued that it's a bit of an Intimidate check... but ultimately, the characters don't actually have a leg to stand on and they're trying to put on a show of confidence (and convince people they aren't using loaded dice), so it's more of a Bluff check.

It's a very silly Bluff check that they rolled a Nat 1 on honestly.

This has been fascinating to read. Just thought you all should know.

That's a good point on hit dice. Actually, only this and the Warpriest don't seem to meet in the middle or go with the higher of the two, from what I can tell. I think the logic is that it has a lower HD because it's a 6th level caster with 3/4 BAB, as no other caster like that (bard, magus, inquisitor, etc.) has a d10 hit die. Let me think on it, because I feel like that requires consideration. If I do, I'll probably also at least make the warpriest and magus have a d10 hit die as well. I'll come up with something later, tonight I had some very serious personal stuff crop up that is hopefully on its way to being resolved, but tomorrow? Probably.

Those traits are fine. However, why do you want Shaman's Apprentice? If you plan to take Diehard, you don't need Endurance for that. I remove it as a prerequisite for most things because it feels like a tax. As for what they replace, you lose a lot of psionic stuff. Gaining fire resistance in addition to the +2 racial bonus on saves against fire isn't worth losing three abilities. You can lose the Survivor or Powerful Build if you want both, but just one won't cost you anything since you lose a lot of psionic stuff. I might recommend against Shaman's Apprentice unless you really want Endurance itself for some reason.

Sorry, I totally forgot to reply to this. The main reason I was looking into Shaman's Apprentice is because it was thematically appropriate and fit well into his backstory. That being said, I will leave the backstory alone and forego the trait.

As for the HD, the only reason I brought it up is because one of the classes that is distilled into the skald uses a D12. I didn't really consider the 3/4 bab or the amount of spellcasting, though none of the other 3/4 bab 6th level casters share a barbarian heritage. At least, none that I can think of. But a d10 HD might make the skald too attractive by comparison to the other similar spellcasters. I will leave it up to you...

I think the reason that the Skald has a D8 hit dice is because their main ability gives them bonus HP (effectively boosting their average hp by one die step).

also, given the way Raging Song is worded, a Skald can deactivate Raging song and re-activate it the next round, which reactivates the HP bonus. So anyone who's lost their bonus HP from being damaged, including the Skald, gets them again.

If used in a "rage cycle" playstyle, Raging Song gives everyone in the party their level in "buffer HP" every round.

Skalds are seriously awesome.

The down side is that every time a Skald wants to renew the Raging Song, they lose their Move action. It's not much of a trade, but it is a trade.

Don't forget to take the Lingering Performance feat. That will effectively triple the rounds of Ragesong you get per day.

Also, Master performer and Grandmaster performer are amazing for a Skald.

Sorry it is taking me so long to put Janus together. I have a pretty heavy couple of deadlines at work this week and I have been pulling long hours trying to get it done.

Marcus, the Skald as written does not grant temp HP, it grants a bonus to con. You gain you HD in HP, but when it ends you lose those HP again. It is not clearly worded like the barbarian's rage is, but the other wording is like the normal barbarian's rage, so it seems to me that it is intended to work the same way; probably to specifically avoid that strategy.

If it is played in an "unchained" mode, then ragecycling could be a thing.

Don't forget to take the Lingering Performance feat. That will effectively triple the rounds of Ragesong you get per day.

Also, Master performer and Grandmaster performer are amazing for a Skald.

Are you talking about Master Combat Performer?

Master Performer and Grandmaster Performer are feats from the Faction Guide that don't seem to be on the SRD. They're on the Archive of Nethys though. They each increase the bonus granted by any performance by 1, and stack. Meaning that a skald would grant an extra +2 to Str, Con, and Will Saves while they're inspiring rage in their allies. Which is amazing.

So, with Urban Skald and those two feats I would be granting an extra +2 to any of the three physical stats I chose...

An extra +2 dex coupled with evasion from totemic skald ..

But it seems that no skald can take grandmaster performer without a house rule. It actually requires bard level 8 and I can't find the special words in the skald that would let a skald take it ...

A raging song counts as the bard’s bardic performance special ability for any effect that affects bardic performances. A skald may learn bard masterpieces.

My guess is that this is a problem because at the time the faction guide was published (2010), skalds were a long way off.

It seems pretty clear that Skalds are supposed to count as Bards for things related to bardic music, but this is technically house rule territory.

It seems like a reasonable house rule in any case. But yeah, old stuff always has things that weren't perfectly future proofed.

I'll allow it, I agree with Marcus that it's clearly meant to be allowed and probably no one has brought it up yet. So, Janus does qualify for Grandmaster Performer. I'll throw that up on my rules document for later. I'll have to look at it and see if I think it should work with rage cycling, but doesn't normal Barbarian rage allow for it? If it does, I'd say Raging Song does as well. As for HD, I'm thinking it was a legitimate balance choice. A d10 hit die isn't present in any other class of a similar structure, so I'm gonna rule it out. I think Janus will be alright on survivability, though.

Also, it's worth noting that by the test of Master/Grandmaster Performer, you actually grant a +2 to each individual bonus given, so if you split it as +2 Con/+2 Dex you'd end up with +4 to both instead. I wanted to check, but that's my interpretation of the wording. That's actually a really good set of feats... Donkor, you might want to look into those later. That seems pretty useful for a bard. When my game from college starts playing on Roll20, I'll have to let our bard know about that.

Also, I need to jot down that I want to play a skald, they seem so interesting.

That is my interpretation of the wording too actually. That's why it's so good. They're usually a little more limited as feats because they're associated with a specific Golarion faction and you're supposed to be a member to actually take them, but that's an easy thing to disregard.

Vanilla barbarians can rage cycle after they get Tireless Rage. It's built into the class. There are ways to make it work earlier through various means of fatigue immunity, but eventually all of them can.

Since Ragesomg doesn't cause fatigue, Skalds can do it at level 1, but they give up their move action to do it.

The tactic I used as a Skald was to use Lingering performance to activate Ragesong and end it the next round, then the effects continue for two rounds. On the 4th round i'd activate it again. That let me triple my Ragesong rounds at the cost of a move action every three rounds.

If the party was hit by a mass damage spell I'd stop and restart Ragesong to renew the buffer hp.

Most of my spells would be things like Timely Inspiration and it's higher level versions, which would give boosts to people who were just below the numbers they needed, and battlefield shaping spells like grease.

That, plus power attack and a two handed weapon, was all I really needed.

In a martial heavy party, it was a fun and incredibly potent build.

I'll check it out when I have a moment :-)

But with the original barbarians, rage cycling does not do a buffer to HP. The original barbarian specifically says they are not temporary HP. That is a thing that is only new since unchained when the barbarian stopped buffing abilities and gave flat bonuses.

And I know that Jon said I could choose to have the raging song operate as an unchained rage, but I think with the versatility of boosting any physical ability, I will be sticking to the original style.

What do you guys think?

HP: 1d8 + 2 ⇒ (3) + 2 = 5 so that means I take the half hp thing? Is that five plus my con? Also I swear I am almost done. I typed up a bunch and then went to sleep. Apparently I failed to save my changes. Because sleepy me is not wise.

I need to organize my gear and I need to retype the backstory. But here is the mostly done half orc oracle. The feats are totally subject to change.

I'm starting sheet audits, I'm going to go over everyone's sheet (even people who are mostly the same) just to make sure I haven't been missing something. These aren't in any particular order. I'm doing one per post. I'm writing anything and everything that makes me pause, so if I'm listing a mistake and it's just something I missed, let me know. Also, please remember to read through yours even if you aren't changing the character much. I may have missed something before or you may have forgotten to make one of the small changes from the character creation guidelines I was using before.

Conri Warin:

Kahurangi:

Donkor Geddarn:

Gallidren Aerenduill:

Janus Draugur:

Derrick Tramsen:

Annika Valarius: