GM Airon's Midnight Mirror (Inactive)

Game Master Airon87

The Midnight Mirror module.


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Interest check for

THE MIDNIGHT MIRROR
a Pathfinder adventure module for level 4 characters

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In northern Nidal, far from the Umbral Court of Ridwan and from the most fanatic among the Zon-Kuthon priests, life proceeds more or less like in any other kingdom. Visitors may be put off by the ritual scarring the citizen are subject to, but they themselves see it now as a quirky tradition of a strict deity rather than an imposition from an evil cult. Most people cut a shallow wound on their chest every Sunday (they need healthy hands to work the land), and are happy to get a lawful and ordered community in return.

You find yourself in Nisroch, called by the wealthy Tiboros family. Their daughter Anya married a small baron from the countryside a year ago, and in her letters she writes of the increasing paranoia of her husband. She now has a newborn to think about, and the Tiboros, fearing for the well-being of their yet unmet grandchild, are asking you to travel to Karpad, the aforementioned small barony, and bring back news of Anya; or even help her, should her troubles have become worrisome in the meantime.

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Hello all. I’m looking for 5 players interested in the Midnight Mirror adventure module. It will be run as a standalone adventure with little to no variation on my side.

The module starts off as a very small sandbox and has a second part more structured. It has an investigative part, a lot of role-playing and moral choices, and some good and tough fights. It is set in a village worshipping Zon-Kuthon, the Midnight Lord of Pain, but is less “fanatical backwater maniacs” and more “let’s humor the old priest who wants us to prick our fingers before he blesses us”. It’s not solely horror-themed, no more than most adventures. It has a good mix of tragedy, roleplaying and regular heroics.
For combat I will use maps when the module provides them.

Submissions will be open probably until Saturday 17th, maybe more if needed.
The submissions need to follow this format:

Name
Alignment, Race, Class (archetype)
Short description (polearm fighter with heavy armor focused on maneuvers; draconic (silver) sorcerer focused on evocation spells and with very good social skills; fighter/alchemist focused on mutagen use with good Knowledges; etc...)
Campaign trait picked (see below)
Background and personality (the ideal length for this section is 300-600 words in total. Use spoilers please)

I don’t want to force you to build a 4th level sheet before you are selected. If you like statting, go ahead and build the complete character, but posting the final sheet won’t be a plus in the selection process (most likely I won’t even read it). Also be warned that I like sheets submitted in a standard template (you can see my aliases), so I may ask you to change your formatting. Read the Character Creation section anyway before submitting.

Character creation:

Material allowed: any Paizo, nothing 3PP. If you have on your sheet something not from CR, APG, UCo, UM, ARG, please put a link to a srd document or at the very least write the manual you picked it from.
Level: 4th
Ability scores: 20 Point Buy (you get of course the +1 of 4th level).
Races: Any Core race plus orc, tiefling, aasimar. You can also be a fetchling but you have to pick the related campaign trait (see below). Alternate racial traits are allowed, but not the many different kinds of tieflings and aasimars from Blood of... You can be a spawn of a kyton or an azata or a daemon or whatever fluff-wise, but there’s no mechanical changes from the standard tiefling/aasimar.
Alignments: non-evil are strongly preferred. Try to make characters that can work well in a group. Seeing as the setting has an “easy-going Kuthonites” vibe, clerics and paladins and inquisitors of good faiths should be a lot of fun to play!
Classes: any Paizo class and archetype from official sources, except a Synthesist Summoner. Guns follow the emerging firearms rules.
Traits: 2 traits from any source (except from Adventure Paths), plus 1 custom-made campaign trait (see below).
HP: as PFS.
Gear: 6000 gp. Nothing can be created beforehand, everything must be bought.

Campaign traits:

In service of the Tiboros family: the Tiboros family in Nisroch is very wealthy, and among its loyal employees you have been chosen to help Anya. Living in a Kuthonite household made you tough: you gain +1 trait bonus on saves against Necromancy effects and spells with the Evil descriptor.

Old friend of the Tiboros: albeit weird in their worshipping of the Midnight Lord of Pain, the Tiboros are nice people: you remember seeing little Anya growing up and having drinks with her parents. Your frequentation maid you tolerant: you gain +1 trait bonus on Diplomacy and Sense Motive, and one is always a class skill for you.

Planes expert: you are a scholar of the Outer Planes, and Karpad is notorious for its link to the Plane of Shadow. You gain +2 trait bonus on Knowledge (planes) and this is always a class skill for you.

Pathfinder: this sounds like a juicy story, and you are lucky to have been around when the Tiboros asked for help. This will make it into the Chronicles, you know it! You start with a free wayfinder and gain a +1 trait bonus on Knowledge [history].

Fetchling: Karpad is somehow renowned for hosting an unusually large community of fetchlings, and you are curious to see how your people live in this village. You can choose the fetchling race.

There’s something about Kuthonites: you have a deep interest in seeing how normal kuthonites live, either because you are fascinated by the alien religion or because you wish to eradicate it. You gain +1 trait bonus on Knowledge [religion] (this bonus increases to +2 when dealing with Zon-Kuthon related matters). In addition, you are either proficient with the spiked chain, or get Aklo as a bonus language.

From the Woods: Karpad, as most northern Nidal, is set in large forest knows as the Uskwood – a type of territory you know very well. You gain +1 trait bonus on Handle Animal and Survival, and one of those is a class skill for you.

Dark soul: after living for a while in the shadowy Nidal, a bit of darkness slipped into your heart. You gain +1 trait bonus on Intimidate checks and when attacking concealed enemies you reduce the miss chance by 10%.


Dotting for interest. Thinking NG Elf Alchemist (grenadier)


Dotting.


Hello, I am dotting this one and also puting forward my class idea - Paladin of Torag - I began in another PbP for the Midnight Mirror but it fell through as soon as it started, right as we began getting involved, so actually I have no spoilers whatsoever to show for, except the will to give it another go :D.

Will submit in the correct format as soon as possible. In the meantime I will crunch it because I kinda like statting to be honest.


This sounds like a fun campaign indeed. I'd like to join but I am unsure of what class to pick. I'll get back to you on that. :)


Hmmm, This seems to be a FANTASTIC spot for My Black Blooded Oracle of Metal.


I'm thinking a LN cleric or inquisitor of Zon-Kuthon, probably casting or debuff focused.

Grand Lodge

Putting forth Capriccio De Capo, ex-merchant turned talented bard!


Also dotting for interest. I've been wanting to play a neutral Human Fighter for a while now. Probably focus on dirty fighting. Will have to look over my books again before I decide.


Dotting . Want to make an half orc :-) fighter.
What do you mean everything has to be bought and not made?

Liberty's Edge

dotting, seems very cool and after reading up I like the way you run things DM. I'm thinking of making a Monk of the Four Winds, not sure on the details yet though


Galwin Male Half Orc Fighter
Heavy Hitter
Neutral

Born in woods, part of outcasts. Raised to defend himself, and those close to him. He is very good at his trade. Not very bright, due to his combat trained life. But wise due to it, Galwin soon went to the city, ready to begin a new life outside the dark place he called home

Stats ::

Str18
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 14
Cha 10

Weapon : +1 greatsword, cold iron,
Armor: MW Full Plate

Pathfinder kit. Tent. Rope. If possible Wayfinder.

Feats:
Weapon Focus greatsword
Power attack
Intimidating prowes
Weapon specialization
Cleave

Skills:
Intimidate : 12
Climb: +5
Swim 5

Traits
Defender of society
Armor expert
Dark soul
Sacred Tattoo : Alternate Racial Trait

HP: 40


Seth86 wrote:
What do you mean everything has to be bought and not made?

If you have crafting feats and craft skill, you can't buy items at cost as if you crafted them yourselves, you still have to pay the full price.


Ah. Ok. Doesn't bother me :-P


I may submit John Quiet, often know by his less flattering title of 'The Strangler'


Question: Can we worship any god we like/make up our gods? If not then what gods may we worship?


The Fool wrote:
Question: Can we worship any god we like/make up our gods? If not then what gods may we worship?

The game is set in Golarion and is quite deeply rooted in the setting. You can worship any Golarion deity: you find the main ones in the Core Rulebook and a lot of minor ones in the Inner Sea World Guide and other manuals.

Of course, the more evil deities aren't a great choice for a PC that works in a mostly non-evil group; you can work around that (like an Asmodean focused more on Law than Evil), but it is best to go for the Good or Neutral deities.

I have a strong personal dislike for clerics and paladins "of their own ideals". A cleric, paladin or inquisitor must have a patron deity.


Thanks that helped a lot. :) I'll get back to you with my char in a while then. :)


Dotting.

I have no idea on anything about this module. Any type of enemy that are clearly abundant in this module? Is it like a scenario or it will require us a time commitment?


It is a 36-page module - something that playing tabletop could require around 10-12 hours of gaming. Depending on the pace of the PbP this could mean almost anything, from a few months to a year.

I can usually post around 5 times a week, and I expect a similar commitment form the players.

As for enemies, assuming this is for the ranger favored enemy ability, you won't go wrong with undead and evil oustiders.


Question, how do you feel about a Really non-optomized character. It was a ideal that came to me while looking at the oracle mysteries, Dark Tapestry has some cool powers that would make a good face/ Assassin character with shape change and mind probe, using touch attacks and her own blood as a weapon, but A How well would a assassin/Spy fit into the campaign, B Would you want a 'Backstabber' without any backstabbing?


Forgot to mention she would fit well into the religions setting, as since sh uses her black blood as a weapon it involves cutting herself, and was thinking of making her having Be in Service of Tiboros Family, so would it be viable that they would have their own personal spy, or infiltrator?


Got the crunch done, I'll have everything finished and submit him later on


If you still have room, I would like to give this a go. Unless I skipped right over it, I don't see any Arcane casters and I can fill that role with either a Sorc or a Wizard.


Submissions will be open at least until Saturday 17th, probably longer. Anyone is welcome to submit a character until I say that time is up.

Just to be clear: the only submissions I will consider will be the ones following the template presented in the first post. So far nobody submitted a character.

Khaosclaire wrote:
Question, how do you feel about a Really non-optomized character. It was a ideal that came to me while looking at the oracle mysteries, Dark Tapestry has some cool powers that would make a good face/ Assassin character with shape change and mind probe, using touch attacks and her own blood as a weapon, but A How well would a assassin/Spy fit into the campaign, B Would you want a 'Backstabber' without any backstabbing?

Non-optimized characters are ok, but don't go and make joke character. As I said in the first post, there will be some tough combat. Some can be avoided through diploamcy and roleplay, but some cannot.

Also, remeber that you are heroes. I did not veto Evil characters, but they will have to have a great BG and personality section to be favored over Good or Neutral ones. Be careful with that "assassin using blood and mind probes". A spy with morals and a license to kill is fine, a depraved assassin dark cultist not so much.


I started to lean towards a Infiltrator using shadowy magic to slip in and out of places, using it to look like someone else, and causing havoc upon enemies if possible. I'm kinda staying away from the Evil killer, and more of the information gatherer, scout, and trickster, using her gifts to slip into places or steal the information directly from somebody's mind. The blood is her curse that basically numbs her body and screws with her coordination; but it's less Evil, and more Strange that a living creature has the Black blood; though she will probably do her best to hide it. Still her painfully cold blood makes for good counter attacks to not hurt her, or for interrogations if mental collection doesn't work.


Name: Saravyn D'Averam
Alignment, Race, Class: Neutral Good, Elf, Wizard
Short description: Wizard with highly tactical thought processes. Likes to control the flow of battle in his party's favor. When not studying battle tactics, reads up on the many planes outside of Golarion.
Campaign trait picked: Planes Expert

Background:

Born to a retired soldier and a librarian, Saravyn grew up with a considerably wide education. His mother, once a recruit in the [elven] military, taught him group tactics and basic weaponry alongside the more formal education he received from his father. He quickly grew to love reading, about acts both heroic and magical, and decided at a young age that he wanted to be both. His parents worked together to ensure that he could do so, providing tutors for him as needed. At the age of thirty seven, Saravyn decided that he would formally follow the path of the magical.

Saravyn left his home shortly after his decision, to apprentice with a minor wizard. Here, his training truly began. While most of the other students he meet were fascinated by magicks that were meant to destroy objects, Saravyn used his rudimentary knowledge of military tactics to adapt magic to act as an ally, instead of a mere weapon. He adopted an owl as a familiar, in honor of his father, the librarian. He learned very quickly that the owl, Soar, by name, was a very valuable partner in his endeavors. The ability to extend some spells out to Soar made his application of tactics that much more valuable. His studies lead him to believe that a wizard’s familiar could become even more autonomous and he hopes to one day achieve such a level of skill.

After training with multiple wizards, Saravyn now seeks to use his magic to garner the heroism he has read about. However, things are not as easy as he thought they would be. All of his time spent studying has left him stunted in the ways of society. Making friends was never a priority for him and he is now finding it difficult to meet those who would help him make into the history books. Thoughts of a lone attempt to make a name for himself do not sit well with him and he has resigned himself to take whatever opportunity walks through the door.


Personality:

Saravyn is very serious and business-like in his endeavors. A life of studying and training has made him very poor at communicating with others that have not studied the same things he has. Jokes tend to fly right over his head.

His goals are to emulate the heroes in his books through intelligence and planning.


Name: Ihro Geoff
Alignment, Race, Class: LN, Dwarf, Monk (Monk of the Four Winds)
Role: Strength based DPS monk, but fairly tanky. Has stealth and survival for out of combat skills, so while not a dedicated tracker or a dedicated burglar he can keep people alive in harsh environments and get places unnoticed. So mostly a frontliner, but has a few generalist skills
Campaign Trait: From the Woods

Background:

____________________________________________
Background
____________________________________________
Ihro was born in a monastery, his mother dying upon birth. When Ihro was old enough, Guthro (his father) told him that their entire family was exiled while he was in the womb; however he refused to say why they were exiled. Guthro told him that it should be temporary, and they were just waiting till things cooled off. However, many many years passed, and nothing seemed the change. The monks were hospitable and had no problem with housing those in need, but even they knew that Guthro had no intention of ever leaving. Finally Ihro and the monks confronted him about it, and Guthro stormed off in a rage, saying he was going to try and set things strait...he was never heard from again.

After many weeks of searching, Ihro accepted that his father had most likely died. With nowhere else the go, the monks took him in as one of their own.

After his basic training, Ihro began talking to some of the masters about what fighting style he should specialize in. After trying various styles from weapons, redirection, horseback, unarmed, and chi focused styles of various differences, he found he had developed the ability to draw power from the earth to augment his strikes. So he combined his ancestry with the monks ideals and created his own style.

Ihro has grown up in ignorance of the world, and so when he finished his training he had a lust for travel. Plus he figures if there's any chance of his father still being alive this is the best way to find him.

Ihro has a blunt personality, even for a dwarf. He approaches things simply, but with a great deal of thought. He smiles and laughs easily, and loves learning about new things, even when it's hard for him to understand them.


Appearance:

___________________________________________
Appearance
___________________________________________
Ihro has strait red hair that's bangs are combed back, the hair framing his face braided. His beard is also strait and un-braided. His nose has a weird angle to it that looks like it has been broken once or twice, and there's a small bald streak through his right eyebrow. He normally wears simple robes of brown and green that have a earthy look to them. If the ground is very rough he wears sandals, if not he goes barefoot if it isn't too cold

Also a note on the 'fluff' part of Ihro, normally I get inspiration before I create somebody. He was completely made from scratch, so I apologize for the low quality of his background. I'm sure after some more brainstorming I'll get it a little more fleshed out


Name: Selis Veldriva Mordwound
Alignment, Race, Class: LN, Human, Oracle ( Black Blooded Oracle)
Roll: Infiltration, Interrogation, and Face; With healing powers on hand. Tough enough to take a beating, though foe's will find cutting or stabbing her succeed in releasing her blood weapon on them and would quickly learn not to for their own lives. Sneaky and with proper powers can infiltrate places with ease, and with weapons on hand can dispatch foes under the guess of their allies.
Campaign trait: In service to the Tiboros Family

Backround and Personality:
Having Grown up in the city she quickly learned that people could be cruel and heartless; though while she learned how to blend in with this state of mind, she never let it change who she was, the daughter of a maid whom worked for the Tiboros Family. While she grew up as a maid, she did odd jobs here and their as her gifts slowly grew prevalent, seeking higher and higher dangers of being deep under cover within the families enemy's, stealing info, weather it was harmful to the Tiboros, or helpful for the Rivals.

She is a relatively calm and soft spoken woman, speaking when spoken to or when it is necessary, but she is not some dull flower who simply does as she is told. Her true personality come out when she is forced to blend in with the foe, looking, acting, and sounding as one; before backstabbing them and taking what she came for. Her face and body is littered with scars, thought she mostly keeps her arms and body covered with bandaged to cover them; her face is left uncovered when not in a disguise, she wears them with pride, each showing a battle in which she has won.

Her character design

Sorry for anything that's kinda weak, I don't have a ton to work with for somebody who has always lived around the family, and can't make up too much without assuming things.


This would be Lecky's entry, and if chosen (I wish) I can do the stat block easily,

Name: Lecloront
Alignment, Race, Class: Neutral, Human, Ranger
Role:
Combat - Archery based ranger, with a fierce animal companion offering flank, and other combat maneuvers. If ever you get near him, his also proficient in wielding a greatsword.
Out of Combat - Master of his surroundings, excellent survival and knowledge about his prey and environment. He can be a dedicated tracker and scout, planning to be a somewhat party face too.
Campaign Trait: Old Friend of Tiboros

Background:

Born sick and weak, the village doctor even thought that he won't survive a day or two but his parents refused to give up. They traveled far and wide, they won't hesitate even if it means dying together. They actually prefer it that way for they can't bear the fact that their son would actually die before them. Their search led them Nisroch. Little bit known for their necromancy and other tabooed skills.

Growing up as a kid didn't go easy for Lecloront. His small stature and pretty weak built more often lead to kids making fun of him, and his fondness for animals didn't help. All of those things didn't break his motivation in life, he trained hard, worked hard for all the things he wants. On his parent's graves he swore that whatever happens he will survive and he will live a life that they wanted him to live. Until one day when he was outside of town minding his own business, he saw a caravan got attacked by a small group of undead. Following his instincts he knows what to do in that kind of situation. Using the advantages his environment provided him he managed to lead the group away thus making the caravan make it's escape. Little did he know that he just saved a member of one of the wealthiest families in Nisroch, the Tiboros. They found out that he is an orphan so they supported him in the best they can. Especially after witnessing firsthand of Lecloront's skills, they wanted him to become one of their rangers.

As years pass by, he formed a friendship with the family that he serves. Everywhere they go, they always want Lecloront with them for they always feel safe every single time Lecloront leads their caravan. Today he was called by his longtime friend, he was tasked to leave the family and town he has sworn to protect. He is now to serve his friend's daughter Anya, even though it's hard for him to do. He remembered his parent's will and determination to leave everything and do everything they can just to make sure their son is alive. With the parent's love in his mind, he set out on a journey towards Karpad.

Appearance:

A man on his late 20's. Medium height, and a lean body. His medium length hair that he wears as it is, covers some scars he had on his adventures. He always his armor covered with another layer of cloth, to provide a little cover, that he would say everytime you ask him. Far from the weak and fragile looking child that his parents knew him for.


Hmm, We could use a tanker type


Very well
Name:Doran Steelhand
Alignment, Race, Class:LG, Dwarf, Fighter (Armor Master)
Description:TANK, mostly there to take all of the damage.
Campaign TraitOld friend of the Tiboros
I can't post a backround right now, I am leaving on a trip until friday, If the campaign is starting before then sorry.


I guess this may be the place for Taldash - I would like to throw him into the mix.

Name: Taldash Erdessar
Lawful Good, Tiefling, Oracle/Paladin (Oath of Vengeance)
Short description: High damage dealer self-sustainable tank - he should be able to keep himself up and running quite decently, and when Shield Other comes into play, assist strongly whenever he is not the main target. I am expecting him to be a solid damage dealer to keep the bad guys from ignoring him :D

Campaign trait picked: Most likely Old friend of the Tiboros, but I must admit his crunch is not fully fleshed out as I would like to finish it completely after seeing how the group turns out, and if he is selected.

Background and personality: I have to apologize, but got carried away here and I think I overdid it, but since Taldash is a concept I have been mulling around in my head for some time, his background got a little extensive :D I have placed the background info in his alias.


Another Oracle huh; Love how with the curses no to oracles are alike.


Taldash is definitely more Paladin than Oracle.

I won't beat around the bush much about it - there are obvious mechanical reasons behind that Oracle choice, but it is also tied up with how Taldash came to be an emissary of Torag in the first place - his is not your average indoctrination into the tenets - albeit an important one, this was one of many things he picked up during his apprenticeship.

As I see it, not being born with any evident divine inspiration, he was first a student of his Gods' ways - only later, and dramatically he become his servant.

EDIT: And on second thought I believe the most fitting Campaign trait for him will be In service of the Tiboros family


Also forgot to mention that all the stats are in my Profile X.x I've done everything except Buy items; because I hate that step X.x


Taldash, I just skimmed over your sheet and I see you used alternate tiefling traits from Blood of Fiends.
As I said in the guidelines, I have no problems with you being son of demon or daemon or whatever fluff-wise, but the crunch stays the same for all tieflings - the standard found in ARG.


No problem whatsoever - Alternate Tiefling Traits Removed ;)


Dotting


Interesting. If I can crank out a background, expect an Archaeologist Bard researching religions.


Taldash wrote:
No problem whatsoever - Alternate Tiefling Traits Removed ;)

how did you manage those ability scores with the tiefling basci ability adjustment?


I am using the Variant Tiefling Heritages, to make him a Demon-Spawn. Is that not ok?

I removed the alternate tiefling racial traits, not the variant heritage.

Did you mean no content at all from Blood of Fiends?


Yes, exactly. Tiefling and aasimar have the options presented in the ARG, not in the Bloof of... manuals.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, I thought it was clear. I have no problems with you being a demonspawn fluff-wise, but stats stay the same.


No apologies needed - I was using it since I read in the recruitment thread that, if we had any stuff not from CR, APG, UCo, UM, ARG, to put a link to the srd document - agreed I did not do it, my bad :D

But all of these are actually in the SRD, right?

Variant Tiefling Heritages and Alternate Racial Traits

In any case, if the Demon-Spawn is out of the equation, nope, I cannot have those stats :)


Name: Dario Westone
Alignment, Race, Class: CG Half-Elf Archaeologist Bard 3/Urban Ranger 1
Description: Knowledge and skill monkey, skirmish and spell support
Campaign Trait: There's something about Kuthonites

Background:

Dr. Dario Westone is a former professor of Religious Studies at the University of Egorian in Cheliax. A native of Cheliax, he began his studies under the direction of Professor Abnius Hershire, a senior and very well-respected researcher at the university. Professor Hershire shared Dario’s interest in religious history. He also introduced Dario to what he called Field History, conducting research not just in books, but out in the world in ruins, tombs, and tracking down bits of history in out in the world. Dario took to this immediately and began a series of papers for the university documenting various practices of the major religions over time. This included the change in the worship of Asmodeus from before Aroden’s death to after. Unfortunately, the Church of Asmodeus did not look kindly on these publications and began to increase pressure on the young researcher. Dario, however, quickly found himself under Professor Hershire’s protection. The Professor used his influence and connections in Egorian to shield his young protege and allowed Dario to continue his work.

Two years ago, disaster struck. Professor Hershire was out on an expedition and became trapped in a ruin flooding with water. He never made it out. With his patron gone, the University cracked down harshly on Dario. Ultimately, he was forced into an “Indefinite Sabbatical” and all his classes and research removed from the University grounds. Dario left the University and Cheliax to continue his work elsewhere. He continues to catalog the world’s religions, hoping to create a complete text.


Taldash wrote:

No apologies needed - I was using it since I read in the recruitment thread that, if we had any stuff not from CR, APG, UCo, UM, ARG, to put a link to the srd document - agreed I did not do it, my bad :D

But all of these are actually in the SRD, right?

Variant Tiefling Heritages and Alternate Racial Traits

In any case, if the Demon-Spawn is out of the equation, nope, I cannot have those stats :)

Yes, I wrote that in the "material", but then in "Races" I also precised which races I would have allowed.

Sorry, demon-spawn are out.


You are absolutely right - I stand corrected - Apologies for all this runaround about something that was clearly explained since the start ;)


Dotting.


Name: Titania Evangeline Snowfell
Alignment: NG
Race: Half-Elf(Ulfen)
Class: Fighter (Phalanx) 3 / Bard(Archaeologist) 1
Short description: A Phalanx fighter specialising in Halberds and Defense, Has a variety of skills, can act as a minor healer and minor knowledge bank.
Campaign trait picked: From the Woods
Background and personality: Data in Profile, under Data and Background

How is PFS HP generated?
?? Full +1/2 +1/2 +1/2 ??

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