Freedom Reign

Game Master Wivvy

Thomas is supposed to be from Earth, but trained by the heroes from the Reign of Winter Adventure Path.

@Theorythmus Out of curiosity, how much pathfinder experience do you have, and how high have you played before?

Many of the questions you asked in your last post are explained in the corebook and/or at d20pfsrd.

This page lists the abilities that can be put on a shield.

and this page explains when you can use a shield as a weapon.

While you could, theoretically, buy attack and defense options on a spiked shield, you would have to buy your enhancements twice, and you would only get the benefit of one or the other in any given round, never both. The defending ability of a weapon would not allow you to take the AC bonus of a shield and apply it to AC twice. You could pay twice for a weapon that is also a shield, pay for the defending bonus, and when you are using the shield as a weapon (loosing it's bonus to AC), then use the defending function to apply the weapon bonus back to AC. But this gets dizzy with the circular thinking.

Having a shield in a blinkback belt is not wielding the shield and you would not get an armor bonus. Note that donning or doffing a shield is each a move action.

The ricochet of returning shield would not stack with the blinkback belt. The weapon used from a blinkback belt teleports. Thus you could not use these two abilities to throw the same shield multiple times in one round. ricochet specifically states at the end of the turn.

Since the blinkback belt states the weapon comes back immediately after the attack. This would be a GM call whether this is referring to that iterative attack or an attack action. If iterative, then quick draw would allow you multiple attacks with the same weapon. (As a GM I would probably not allow that since the belt allows for multiple weapons to hang from it.)

The bashing magic enhancement and the shield throw ability appear to stack.

The table at d20pfsrd does not indicate that shield champion replaces or changes brawler's flurry.

Shield mastery would be usable with brawler's flurry. Until you threw the shield. We have already established that you can likely only throw one shield one time in a turn.

There are a couple other questions I haven't addressed yet.

Norathior is from Golarion.

My character (Working name is Zuzhou Cheng, Zhou for short) is also from Golarion, Ilizmagorti or thereabouts, though born in Tian Xia.

Who would like a little bit of fun roll play on here.

This is with the GMs ok. but under spoiler may be fun.

UPDATED

====PCs Alts part built or done====
Lady Rosalyn Luminass GM Pandorica Thats me :)-> NG Monk18/Cleric18 built and done
NG Flori The Fabulous Dave Young 992. -> Slayer 18/Sorcerer 18 built and done
Graah! LN Rigor Rictus -> LN Male Goblin Alchemist 18 / Gunslinger (Pistolero) 16 / Monk (Monk of the Iron Mountain) 2 Alt built
Sazzat Tamm. JoshB -> LN 18th Rogue / 8th Ranger + 10th Horizon Walker. Alt built
Decthacion Alhasinin Steven T. Helt -> NG swashbuckler 18/magus (black blade) 18 Alt built
Thomas Rubinski AceDiamond -> LG Sorcerer (Sage) 18 /Arcanist (White Mage) 18
James Bonfire trawets71 -> NN Ranger 18/Bard 18
The Monkey King 孫悟空 LN? Rynjin -> Brawler 18/Monk 18

===Built and posted in Recruitment thread===]
Cale Evans Vrog Skyreaver - bard | Paladin of Irori\oracle
Kawai fnord72 -> Fighter 1/Rogue 7/Evangelist 10//cleric 18
Jon Cage Lord Foul II -> Alchemist (vivisectionist) 18 /machine-smith 8 /transmecanical ascendant 10
Dudley Benfare drbuzzard -> fighter18/paladin (oath of vengeance) 18

Back story posted in Recruitment thread, Will make crunch if picked
The Grey Spectre! Monkeygod ->

[Can't find this submission on this thread sorry]
Norathior Dragonflyer1243 ->

Other players who have shown interest
rorek55 -> Paladin 18/ fighter 18 ?
meeko ->monk/Druid ?

players who have Dropped out
Seth86 - Iron Killer - Rynjin - Edward Sobel

Players who my miss deadline but will apply next round of recruitment
Theorythmus

Here is Vrog's Alt.

While you could, theoretically, buy attack and defense options on a spiked shield

That's not quite true. Any shield can be enhanced as both a weapon and an armor.

you would have to buy your enhancements twice, and you would only get the benefit of one or the other in any given round, never both. The defending ability of a weapon would not allow you to take the AC bonus of a shield and apply it to AC twice.

You actually can stack the benefits of a defending shield, but it's true that the defending shield would have to A) be enchanted as at least a +1 weapon, and B) you would have to attack with it. It's not something you can just have active all the time (much like fighting defensively or power attack). Also, if you used defending, you would only get the Weapon Enhancement Bonus to your AC. So if you had a +1 heavy shield that was enhanced as a +1 defending weapon as well, then your total bonus to AC from your shield during the rounds in which you attack with your shield and chose to activate defending would be +4.

Seeing as this is going to be a long reply, I'm going to put it in a spoiler again.
This is specifically in reply to what Fnord said, but feel free to read if you want to add to the conversation :)

@Vrog, your last sentence seems a bit confusing. You state that when using defending I would only get the Weapon Enhancement Bonus to AC yet wouldn't that mean I would only get a +1 instead of the +4 you state. Or am I missing something?

Decthacion is from the elves of Golarion, but spent significant time at his family's holdings on the green planet. His ancestral estate on Golarion is in Kyonin.

From the bottom up.

I didn't see anything that indicated you would not be able to do increased damage from brawler's flurry with your shield champion.

shield mastery is using an action. The ricochet return effect is at the end of the turn, so you would not get multiple attacks. The DM would need to decide if the blinkback was an iterative 'attack' or an 'attack' action. If an attack action, then the teleport happens after the action, and thus you would again not get multiple throws. If it is an iterative action, and you are using quickdraw shields and the quick draw feat, then you could get multiple throws.

The blinkback belt is a pretty cheap item to allow multiple hits with the same thrown weapon (the returning weapon ability doesn't return for multiple hits in the same round).

Let's say you spend $25209 for a +5 quickdraw shield, and another $72,000 for a +5 defending weapon enhancement. (GM call if this qualifies as an additional ability and one of them gets a 50% price hike, I'd say yes, since the rules do state multiple abilities get the price increase and there is no rule stating shields enhanced as weapons and shields are exempted)

While the shield is on your blinkback belt, you do not have the AC bonus. You quickdraw (free action with quick draw feat), and throw the shield. You get your brawler's flurry damage with an extra +5 for the shield.

OR, you choose to apply the +5 weapon enhancement to your AC using the defending property when you throw it. In which case you throw it with your BF damage but you lose the weapon enhancement damage.

The only way to get the +5 AC to armor and the +5 weapon enhancement to AC is to be already holding the shield, and then make a bash attack (with improved bashing) with the shield using the defending property. However, since the shield is wielded, you would only get one throw since the blinkback belt requires the weapon to be on the belt prior to the throw.

One thing to keep in mind, while many of the brawler and shield champion abitilites reference shield bash, in the context of "as shield bash", throwing a shield is not a shield bash, it does the same damage as a shield bash, and it allows other abilities to be used as if a shield bash. This does not mean that throwing a shield is a shield bash. As such, improved shield bash would not apply to throwing a shield.

Keep in mind that a shield bash is basically shoving the shield on your arm into your opponent, hoping to hurt them with the edge, spikes, or to knock them off-balance. Throwing the shield may do the same damage, but it is not a bash. Throwing the shield may allow you to perform some combat maneuvers as if the shield were still melee instead of thrown, but the attack is not a melee attack. Shield bash is a melee attack.

So the big question is: Why not just use two shields? One to attack, one to defend?

Well the idea would be to use quickdraw shields, so I could don them as a free action due to having quickdraw. I would have a shield purely for defense and attacks of opportunities that I would have equipped most of the time and then an offensive quickdraw shield that I would have on the belt.

As I stated in the quoted text from within the spoiler in my last post, my idea was to have one I have always on, a "defense" shield on which I could possibly add the defending property (which would only be useful if I were to shield bash with it on a regular basis). I would obviously not throw with this one.

And a second shield which I would use for offense and take my iteratives on through the use of the blink back belt. The reason I want it back on the belt is because I want to have one hand free after my full-round action. The current build gives me the deflect arrow feat and that requires a free hand.

And although the blinkback belt is rather cheap for what it does, there are many people who do not allow the multiple abilities on one magic item, unless it's one from the book. So most people opt for the stat increasing belt.

Most places I have found it referenced was in the form of using 1 thrown weapon for multiple attacks. One of the reasons for having multiple weapons on the belt is for different beating different DR's :)

The blinkback belt is a pretty cheap item to allow multiple hits with the same thrown weapon (the returning weapon ability doesn't return for multiple hits in the same round).

I don't know about that.

From the PRD: When the wearer draws a weapon attached to this belt and throws it before the end of her next turn, the weapon teleports back to its strap or sheath immediately after the attack is resolved

It says immediately after the attack is resolved. That doesn't mean any full attack action or anything which prevents multiple uses of the same weapon. If one takes it your way, there is no possible way a thrown weapon character is at all viable.

Multiple returning weapons won't work since you can only catch one. I suppose you can have as many as fit on your blinkback belt, but still you've multiplied the cost of weapons by your number of iterative attacks (maximum of 4 light weapons so you can't even get full iterative + rapid shot to work). That kills the build. It's bad enough you have to take an item which eats the belt slot to be able to throw effectively at all (though with custom items, you can simply eat a bit more cost to make this work).

Returning weapons appear in the thrower's square at the beginning of their next turn. If the thrower moves from the square he threw the weapon in, the weapon appears in an empty square and lands on the ground. They don't return at all in the round they were thrown.

You can't use a blinkback belt with a shield because shields aren't drawn and thrown.

If you are throwing a dagger, shuriken, throwing axe, or something else that affixes to the belt, you can full attack with only the one weapon, so long as you have Quickdraw.

Does that help you fellas out?

Another detail: the blinkback belt doesn't take an action at all. The weapon appears instantly on your belt after each attack, not attack action. So with Quickdraw you can full attack with a single ranged weapon.

Shields aren't drawn and thrown?

Where do you get that idea?

Shields are drawn just like any other weapon. Not to mention there are Quickdraw Shields.

Readied shields are not drawn and thrown. Can't say I've ever seen a shield thrown from a scabbard or belt. Am I missing something?

Just my two cents, but when it says "the weapon teleports back to its strap or sheath immediately after the attack is resolved" does not sound like the intent is that the weapon appears at the end of the full attack action. The attack is resolved after you find out if that attack action hit, missed, and how much damage is inflicted, if any.

I get that there are different opinions out there, but sometime folk need to remember that even though you can run these rules however you wish in your games, unless this is your campaign, there is a possibility that the rules might be interpreted differently. On occasion, there is an FAQ or an unofficial DEV opinion on a rule that backs up a particular interpretation, but unless such an example can be cited, I think it is reasonable to assume all interpretations are equally correct until the GM running this campaign tells us what rules he (or she) is going to use.

Readied shields are not drawn and thrown. Can't say I've ever seen a shield thrown from a scabbard or belt. Am I missing something?

It's very very simple.

The Blinkback Belt can hold 2 1H melee weapons, or 4 Light melee weapons.

Shields are melee weapons. Some are 1H, some are Light.

Therefore, you can hang shields from the Blinkback Belt. Then draw and use them as any other melee weapon attached to said belt.

I'm not sure why there's even any dispute here.

You can't really use it as a shield when it's attached to said belt, though, since there's no "Quick Sheathe" Feat. You can draw and toss it as many times as you choose with Quick Draw, but drawing it and holding it makes it so you need to use a Move action to sheathe it before you can throw it again with the Belt's power. It's a trade-off.

Good points.

Which is why I posted suggestions with both attack iterative and attack action.

To make multiple iterative attacks with a shield from a blinkback belt, he needs both the quick draw feat and a quickdraw shield.

I still don't get why he wants to have both attack and defense enhancements on one shield though, seems overly complicated and expensive.

You can't use it at all when it's attached to your belt. And while someone could train to quickdraw a dagger from a sheath and throw it as part of a draw, I'm not buying that from someone who wants to throw a two-foot metal disk.

Also..a shield ISN'T a melee weapon. It's a shield. You have to take a feat to use it as a weapon, and then it's not a throwing weapon unless you take a different feat or buy it a magical property. Right?

It's actually really durn cheap if you take the Shield Master Feat. Since its defensive enhancement is translated into offensive enhancement. Twice the benefit, half the price. Literally.

You can't use it at all when it's attached to your belt. And while someone could train to quickdraw a dagger from a sheath and throw it as part of a draw, I'm not buying that from someone who wants to throw a two-foot metal disk.

Also..a shield ISN'T a melee weapon. It's a shield. You have to take a feat to use it as a weapon, and then it's not a throwing weapon unless you take a different feat or buy it a magical property. Right?

Um...wrong. Shields are Martial weapons. They're on the Martial weapon table in the CRB. Bludgeoning damage, 1d3 for a Light Shield (Light martial) and 1d4 for a Heavy Shield (One Handed Martial).

Any melee weapon can be thrown. Check the weapons page. They have a range increment of 10 ft, take a -4 penalty, and drop their threat range to 20/x2.

With Feats, they become BETTER weapons, just like any other weapon. But those Feats are certainly not required.

And it doesn't particularly matter if you can "buy" it or not.

They are weapons, they can be attached to the belt, and can be drawn and thrown from said belt. End of story.

It's no more ridiculous than attaching a pair of Longswords to the belt (also a valid option) and throwing them instead.

Hell, there are specific THROWING SHIELDS, which can be thrown as a Free action for an extra 50 gp. Applies to all kinds of shields, sans Tower.

Who would like a little bit of fun roll play on here.

This is with the GMs ok. but under spoiler may be fun.

** spoiler omitted **

One thing to note in this specific example is that the Shield Champion archetype turns Shields into (non-improvised) thrown weapons with a range increment of 10 ft.

which just means there is no -4 penalty, because the threat range is exactly the same :)

And as stated before the weapon & shield enhancement together on one shield can have its uses. For the "defense" shield to get the defending quality (which I will not be using, because I honestly don't think I'll be needing that +5 AC that much with all the other stuff I have), but I was also looking into it to get the Merciful enchantment on it so I can hit people without necessarily needing to kill them :)

And for an attack shield it's still interesting to have it at least also be a +1 AC shield with the Bashing enchantment for increased damage...

Didn't even think about Shield Master adding the AC bonus as attack/damage bonus when attack with the shield as I wasn't certain how everything would stack together.

And like Graah! stated, most of these ideas from both sides of the conversation might be true, what matters is the GM's opinion on this. :)

Of course, the GM is the final arbiter for any of these questions.

My point, Rynjin, is that a shield doesn't rest on a belt to be thrown from the hip like a dagger. I cannot recall a single time I've ever seen someone (movie, art, roleplay, SCA, etc) walk around with a shield on their belt. There's not a place on a belt for a shield.

Again, if we want to be twinks and ignore that fact that shields are carried or back mounted, then fine. Throw heavy shields as a full attack action and look silly doing it. But.....ew.

This is what I was talking about earlier.

I mean, god forbid somebody comes up with character they'd find fun, and found a way to make it work.

You've got to nitpick it to death with a combination of not understanding the rules, and your own condemnations of what somebody else wants to do, just because it doesn't suit your tastes.

So is there a deadline for choosing? I thought it was Tuesday.

** spoiler omitted **

No, Rynjin. The guy asked a rules question. I gave a rules answer. Belts aren't worn on the waste so they don't benefir from the blinkback belt. Also, returning items don't return often enough for a full attack. You're the one picking the fights man.

No, Rynjin. The guy asked a rules question. I gave a rules answer.

This is where you're wrong. You're letting your personal bias interfere with the actual rules answer here.

You don't like it, therefore it can't be the right answer.

However the fact of the matter remains that it works, whether you like it or not, by the rules. I've shown you why.

You then go on to seemingly concede that point, and fall back on "Well it makes you a twink and you look silly nyuhhhhh."

On the Blinkback Belt:

While I am not taking sides, I will say that often something akin to the belt will flat out state if multiple attacks can be used. I can not think of any right off the top of my head, but I know I've seen such examples in the past.

Regarding Wivvy:

Paizo was down pretty much all of yesterday and last night. Also, there have been several pretty severe storms around the States(not sure where Wiv is from), so that could factor in to him not posting recently.

Well, I suppose it goes back to my previous point; if there is the slightest room for ambiguity in a description, it seems it will clearly say blue when one person reads it, and yet obviously say red when read by another... In the end only the opinion of the GM running the session matters.

Uugh, one of the only two nights I'm off and paizo is down the entire time, that sucks.
I might have to wait till someone dies or leaves, which is kinda disappointing.

** spoiler omitted **

Build is coming along...

but I think I may need to switch cleric for wizard, not getting as many DD's as I was hoping.

Suggestions welcome: Kasatha Rogue/cleric

Actually the only severe storm I'm having trouble with is finals week. Who has time for real life anymore, am I right?

I'm going to take up rule debates with the group selected, that way it's a smaller group and much less likely to get as heated as these have been getting. For right now, focus on the fluff.

On a completely unrelated note, I saw a few people doing some early role play. That is perfectly fine at this stage. :)

Due to this crazy busy week, I may be unable to pick my selections until Saturday or Sunday at the latest. Sorry to keep you waiting guys, but I wasn't expecting to be this busy.

(That being said, keep a close eye on this tomorrow. I may find some free time.)

Aw awesome, my next day off is Saturday, I might be able to finish the character in time!
(For the record on other days I have enough time to post, just not a large block I'd need to make characters, I will have more time after peak season ends)

Completely updated and whatnot.

Graah!: I think you misunderstood me somewhere. The blink back belt Definitely allows for iterative attacks. The returning weapon quality does not. as for wearing a shield on one's belt, I've never seen shield suspended from a belt before. it seems absurd and I can barely imagine walking with a shield strapped to your thigh. if you wore a shield on your back like Captain America, or on your arm and paid double the bleep back belts cost, .

as for shield not being weapons I misspoke. shields are not thrown weapons and every weapon is not a throwing weapon just at a -4 penalty.

as for name calling I'm nowhere near that. just trying to help answer a real question. I don't really understand the other guys hostility, .

this message was composed while I'm driving, so sorry for any typos from voice to text

Fnord, you could use 3 levels of horizon walker to get all the dd you want, but then you'd just have a copy of my character submission.

Sorry for any misunderstanding; I thought there was a contradiction in there somewhere as it sounded like you were in favour of iterative attacks in an earlier post, and then changed positions in your later posts to say it wouldn't work.

Also agreed that throwing a shield without the improvised -4 would take a feat; either a thrown shield exotic weapon feat, or the Throw Anything feat.

For the shield on belt thing, I agree, I've never seen it either, but I have seen sword belts worn diagonally over the shoulder - the two part ones I linked to were just an example. In the long run, I don't know if it affects anyone that severely if a player wants to wear a shield on his belt. Alternatively, I don't think it would make a difference if he wanted to wear his belt over his shoulder baldric style. That way he could strap the shield to his back. The belt then does the does the same job, and as long as it still occupies the same item slot, I don't thing it should cost anything different than usual.

Of course, all of this is semantic, as Wivvy has already stated he's going to leave the rules stuff until after the selection. All the hostility floating around does seem totally unnecessary.

as for shield not being weapons I misspoke. shields are not thrown weapons and every weapon is not a throwing weapon just at a -4 penalty.

I'm not really interested in arguing with you any more so I'll just let the rules text speak for itself.

"It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet."

No worry's GM, there have been a lot of problems with the storms, most games have been put back. Good luck with your Finales. Worry about that 1st then us, we can all wait. Thanks for OKing the small bit of Roll Play. Little bit of RPG fun in a bar, meet and greet. testing descriptions and getting to test how our PCs may act and behave. That alone should take us to Saturday.:) So guys you want to play rules layering at each other or you want to RP, if it's RP get ya PCs down the Mucky Duck and say HI, GM has give every one time to get that Alt up, so how about ya make one and come in. Even if you don't get in this round, There will be others so the GM says. :0)

UPDATED
====PCs Alts part built or done====
Lady Rosalyn Luminass GM Pandorica Thats me :)-> NG Monk18/Cleric18 built and done
NG Flori The Fabulous Dave Young 992. -> Slayer 18/Sorcerer 18 built and done
Graah! LN Rigor Rictus -> LN Male Goblin Alchemist 18 / Gunslinger (Pistolero) 16 / Monk (Monk of the Iron Mountain) 2 Alt built
Sazzat Tamm. JoshB -> LN 18th Rogue / 8th Ranger + 10th Horizon Walker. Alt built
Decthacion Alhasinin Steven T. Helt -> NG swashbuckler 18/magus (black blade) 18 Alt built
Thomas Rubinski AceDiamond -> LG Sorcerer (Sage) 18 /Arcanist (White Mage) 18
James Bonfire trawets71 -> NN Ranger 18/Bard 18
The Monkey King 孫悟空 LN? Rynjin -> Brawler 18/Monk 18
Cale Evans Vrog Skyreaver -bard | Paladin of Irori\oracle
Kawai fnord72 -> Fighter 1/Rogue 7/Evangelist 10//cleric 18
===Built and posted in Recruitment thread===]
Jon Cage Lord Foul II -> Alchemist (vivisectionist) 18 /machine-smith 8 /transmecanical ascendant 10
Dudley Benfare drbuzzard -> fighter18/paladin (oath of vengeance) 18
Back story posted in Recruitment thread, Will make crunch if picked
The Grey Spectre! Monkeygod ->
[Can't find this submission on this thread sorry]
Norathior Dragonflyer1243 ->
Other players who have shown interest
rorek55 -> Paladin 18/ fighter 18 ?
meeko ->monk/Druid ?
players who have Dropped out
Seth86 - Iron Killer - Rynjin - Edward Sobel
Players who my miss deadline but will apply next round of recruitment
Theorythmus

Norathior's submission is complete. Because of how many spells I'd have to deal with, I'm going to wait to deal with that if I get in.

Dragonflyer1243 could you me a link to Norathior thanks, its so I can add your PC into the list