Average PC Stats

What do you consider average stats for a PC? I always have thought that PC’s where above the normal person in stats, but what is the norm for a hero?

I think this new group I recently joined runs alittle high in stats.

We used the roll 4 dice drop the lowest, and you roll three columns of stats and you can pick which column you want to take.

I recently rolled 18 15 16 13 14 10. Which I thought was great. The rest of the party is around the same numbers give or take.

Fizz

I think those are *phenomenal* scores Fizz.

In my group, that would be a very special character.

Although, it sounds like he's average by comparison in yours.

Meh...different strokes.

Thanks for starting this thread BTW, I'd be interested to hear what others have to say in relation to their games.

There's two schools of thought and both of them end up telling very different stories. There's the 'Fantasy Heroes' side and the 'Gritty Realism' side.

On the Fantasy Heroes side, the PCs are demonstrably above average, sometimes in all respects. I had an Exalted Paladin/Wizard in a game that Fatespinner ran in the Forgotten Realms setting who, if I recall his stats correctly, was absurdly powerful.

18, 12, 18, 20, 16, 20. I think the stat-rolling system was 1d10+10.

This is obviously extreme even for this example, but you get my point. In this setting, the 'average' PC is still well above the 'average' NPC. A 'Fantasy Hero' stands out from the crowd in notable fashion and is recognized as being special and unique, a figure to gather around, to respect, and to tell stories of decades later.

The 'Gritty Realism' side tends to balance things out.

For example, I'm currently playing in an Iron Kingdoms game on these very boards. The character I'm running still has a pair of notably high stats, but everything else has suffered for it, and not in ways that won't be noticeable.

16, 8, 20, 12, 12, 7.

The classic charisma-as-dump-stat will be quite an issue, and as a Fighter, the low Dexterity severely hampers his choice of combat style. Further, as a character with obvious flaws, he is less an object of 'heroism', especially if he does not do anything to distinguish himself aside from being immensely tough.

To conclude, depending on the tone of your story and setting, the 'average' NPC might be just as capable as a PC (lacking only the levels that reflect experience and learning), or might be miles behind, as PCs are simply 'Wearing PC Hats' and thus empowered beyond any normal person's hope of catching.

We typically use 32 point buy for our games, so most characters end up with a spread like this:

16, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8

Occassionally, a very focused character will go like so:

18, 14, 12, 10, 10, 10

If it's a limited game (like 1 or 2 players, which we've done in the past), I will use 1d10+8 or 1d8+10 as the stat roll for each score. We typically also allow any 1s to be rerolled in these cases.

On the Fantasy Heroes side, the PCs are demonstrably above average, sometimes in all respects. I had an Exalted Paladin/Wizard in the Forgotten Realms setting who, if I recall his stats correctly, was absurdly powerful.

18, 12, 18, 20, 16, 20. I think the stat-rolling system was 1d10+10.

I ran that game. :)

Yes, it was 1d10+10, but the stats you posted are a little off. I also allowed you to move up to 2 points from any one stat to another, which is why you ended up with all even-numbered stats.

Robillard (the Paladin/Wizard in question) had the following:

18, 12, 16, 20, 14, 20

His ally, Hans (a Cleric/Barbarian of Tempus) rolled terrifyingly high:

20, 16, 20, 14, 20, 14

Yes. Obscene.

depending on the group/campaign/what was done last time - we flop between 3d6, take what you get and arrange how you want 'em, and 4d6 drop the lowest and arrange how you want 'em.

Have never played with point buy, except for a one-shot once. All the characters felt cookie-cutter, but I'd give it another try.

His ally, Hans (a Cleric/Barbarian of Tempus) rolled terrifyingly high:

20, 16, 20, 14, 20, 14

Yes. Obscene.

<goobery> Hans once one-shot-killed a Remorhaz at level... 6 or 7, on the first action of Initiative in the combat. It was awesome. </goobery>

What do you consider average stats for a PC? I always have thought that PC’s where above the normal person in stats, but what is the norm for a hero?

I think this new group I recently joined runs alittle high in stats.

We used the roll 4 dice drop the lowest, and you roll three columns of stats and you can pick which column you want to take.

I recently rolled 18 15 16 13 14 10. Which I thought was great. The rest of the party is around the same numbers give or take.

Fizz

Well others here, especially Ex Lege Libertas, have commented on this in depth. I'll just note that the DMG thinks that an exceptional individual has the elite array or a 25 point buy.

Fizzban wrote:

What do you consider average stats for a PC? I always have thought that PC’s where above the normal person in stats, but what is the norm for a hero?

I think this new group I recently joined runs alittle high in stats.

We used the roll 4 dice drop the lowest, and you roll three columns of stats and you can pick which column you want to take.

I recently rolled 18 15 16 13 14 10. Which I thought was great. The rest of the party is around the same numbers give or take.

Fizz

Well others here, especially Ex Lege Libertas, have commented on this in depth. I'll just note that the DMG thinks that an exceptional individual has the elite array or a 25 point buy.

The elite array would be 15,14,13,12,10,8 IIRC, which equals 25 point buy. The LGG had 28-point buy as mandatory, as Greyhawk was said to be a "tougher campaign". The DMG states 32-point buy is "high-powered". (16,15,13,12,11,10 could be the stats for 32-point buy).

So, your stats are really great and way beyond what the rules seem to see as normal.

I don´t have my PCs stats at hand, but they are good as well. I used the roll 4d6 and discard lowest method, and had my PCs roll four characters each - they have very high stats.

Stefan

Just a contribution... I set up a spreadsheet to determine the average value of 4d6 drop the lowest, expressed in point buy:

Case 1: Assuming 8 as a minimum (like point buy) - 29.13

Case 2: Assigning negative point values to stats below 8 that mirror the positive point costs - 28.53

So, either way, rolling dice is better than the 25 point-buy that WotC recommends...

Just a contribution... I set up a spreadsheet to determine the average value of 4d6 drop the lowest, expressed in point buy

Hey, thanks, Dragonmann! I was actually just thiking about doing that, because a glance at some 4d6-drop-lowest characters indicates that they seem to be really lucky, or else a lot better off than the poor "elite" characters. Currently I'm using 25-point buy, as something new after decades of roll-the-dice.

My method may not be pure statistical, but it had enough brute force...

Plotted out the results chart 1111,1112,1113... (okay I wrote the formulas for it to fill itself) then determined the sum dropping the min roll.

Plotted those reulsts on a histogram, and then did a weighted average.

Converted the scores into point buy, and just summed up the results.

The way this distribution looks actually getting a 25 point buy with 4 dice is rare, and doing worse is pretty hard, while a 32 point buy isn't unreasonable, but getting above that is also very rare...

It is effectivly a very narrow bell curve

(in case anyone cared)

This is a great thread. My current group has insanely high stats: 20,17,16,14,14,11 would be about the norm. I think everyone's spoiled now and I'm wondering if I'll be able to have a more reasonable array of stats in the next game.

We've also done point buys for the past few years or so and I am curious to include some randomness back into the character creation process. I have not seen a method that I like (4d6 drop the lowest seems the most common). I don't like to see a character with anything below a 9. We're just too into the escapism concept to play someone below average in anything. And I don't want to see one person with a couple of 18s and another person with a high score of 14. Are there any systems out there that really deliver a range of 10-16 with scores of 18 and 8 being rare?

Are there any systems out there that really deliver a range of 10-16 with scores of 18 and 8 being rare?

Just roll more, smaller dice. That'll make the extreme ends (in either direction) less likely. Example: roll 1d6 and then flip 6 coins (tails=1, heads=2), giving a 7-18 range in which most values will cluster around 12-13; 7-8 and 17-18 will be quite anomalous (1 in 384 chance of getting an 18, as opposed to 1 in 216 with 3d6). This is a pretty extreme example; 2d6 + 3 coins (d2) might be better.

Just a contribution... I set up a spreadsheet to determine the average value of 4d6 drop the lowest, expressed in point buy:

Case 1: Assuming 8 as a minimum (like point buy) - 29.13

Case 2: Assigning negative point values to stats below 8 that mirror the positive point costs - 28.53

So, either way, rolling dice is better than the 25 point-buy that WotC recommends...

I did the same study a couple years ago, which is why I go with 30-point point buy in my games. Rolling dice is great, but when one player ends up with 12,12,12,10,9,8 and another with 18,18,17,15,14,11 it tends to create resentment.

BTW, if you remove the so-called "hopeless" characters a la the PHB recommendations, it's slightly higher, but not as much as you'd think.

Our group likes the 32 point buy for PCs and the 25 for NPCs. This lets the PCs feel like they're a cut above.

The best thing about rolling and keeping a given set of stats is that a couple of 16+ scores will probably convince you to keep something like a 7 or 8. One low score can often provide great character development for RP right out of the box.

Our group uses 4d6 drop the lowest, reroll ones. This does tend for high powered characters.

I prefer 28 point buy and use it with my characters. Tried to use it in my eberron game and the gang fought it kicking and screaming. *sigh*

My players tend to run a little high on the stats. Correction- very high. 32 point buy is considered weak. Personally, I prefer more toned-down stats and think that the other players definition of a "good stat" is off. But, it's largely also my fault for having failed to convene a pre-campaign launch meeting to discuss these things the last time or two we've rolled up characters.

Back when we started playing, with a real "anything goes" attitude, I let them roll up three sets of stats and choose the best. That spoiled them for ever more. :)

A player was rolling up a new character just this week, and rolled two sets: 15, 15, 15, 12, 9, 6, and 16, 12, 12, 14, 9, 8. Hardly the most astounding thing ever, but when he described them as "god awful" and refused to even consider them, only grudgingly accepting 32 point buy, I struggled to keep my jaw from dropping.

Then again, he also has an abnormal aversion to having ANY negative scores. He was making a dwarf cleric, who he knew would be toting around full plate and a heavy shield, and casting buffing spells as his main "thing." He still didn't want to put an 8 in Dex because of the -1 AC, to the point he was considering taking hits in Con, Wis, and/or Cha, which are all far more important to a cleric than Dex.

Really, I feel I should reign things in, but it always meets with so much resistance.

I'm still hoping to develop a new group in college, and when I do, I think I'll get them started with a more constrained character generation method: roll one set, and keep it so long as you have at least one 15 and the sum of your modifiers come out positive. If you don't like it, you can always opt for 28 point buy. I feel the game is more balanced that way, and I hope that it will reduce overall moping when less than deific stats sets are rolled, once it's seen that such characters are perfectly viable.

I've wanted to use a set of Fudge Dice and do a 14+4dF set...most of your attributes will be in the 14±1 range with values 10-18 possible.

I prefer the modified elite array {15,14,13,12,10,10} but all my players prefer to roll 4d6 and drop the lowest.

Our group likes the 32 point buy for PCs and the 25 for NPCs. This lets the PCs feel like they're a cut above.

Close to what I do. I like the 32 point buy, but our group currently has a 34 point buy because we were going to start out with much fewer characters and I didn't want people to die right away.

NPCs are not as clear cut for me. I change the stats to make it a challenge, but I don't try and put them in a box.

Our group uses the roll 4d6 and drop the lowest, with the added generosity of being able to reroll 1s. This doesn't /prevent/ low scores, of course, but it does significantly reduce how often they crop up. Plus, myself and at least one of the other DMs likes to guarantee at least one 18.

I guess overall we prefer an 'epic' feel to our characters. We want them to be really good at what they do from the beginning, not have to start out as 'slightly better than competent' and have to work up to 'really good'. We'd rather start really good, and work into epic.

As such, I've been considering something I'd call the 'Epic Array', consisting of: 18 16 14 13 11 9, or 18 17 15 13 11 9, or something similar. I'd like to have that one deficiency, but I really want my players to feel epic... I haven't bothered figuring out how many points it'd be.

Some of the player expectations for super-high stats may come from the 1e/2e modifiers, vs. those in d20. If you focus the players' attention on the modifiers, not the number, they'll see that a 17 Str in 1st ed. is equivalent to a 12 or 13 in 3.x ed., and they'll be happier with the 12. Otherwise, they'll want the 17.

My group uses 28 pt buy. Although for awhile we used straight 13's . drop 2 to gain 1 stat. Problem with that was alot of guys min maxed , so we had a bunch of 3 cha guys heh.

Some of the player expectations for super-high stats may come from the 1e/2e modifiers, vs. those in d20. If you focus the players' attention on the modifiers, not the number, they'll see that a 17 Str in 1st ed. is equivalent to a 12 or 13 in 3.x ed., and they'll be happier with the 12. Otherwise, they'll want the 17.

We all played 2nd Ed, and some of us played 1st. But, in our case we pretty much want the 17 because of the +3 with a potential +4 from an ability increase later on. :) Plus, 17 definitely looks nicer on our character sheet than 12.

Some of the player expectations for super-high stats may come from the 1e/2e modifiers, vs. those in d20. If you focus the players' attention on the modifiers, not the number, they'll see that a 17 Str in 1st ed. is equivalent to a 12 or 13 in 3.x ed., and they'll be happier with the 12. Otherwise, they'll want the 17.

Just had a flashback to the old +3hit/+6damage from an 18.100 strength - crazy :)