DMDM's Hells Rebels

Game Master Douglas Muir 406

I totally forgot to order the mastiff to attack :/.

Is it the lack of a map that makes people not take advantage of positioning? With 3 against 1 it should be very easy to set up flanking. Also everyone keep ignoring my bless :(.

There is a map...

Yeah, I saw Hiranno's comment afterwards.

I remembered the flanking bonus after I posted. I rolled so low that it wouldn't have mattered anyway, so I didn't bother editing.

So if I take next level in Ninja, should I get Shadow clone or Vanishing Act?

Also, should I get the Slayer Sniper?

@Hiranno: IMHO vanishing trick is the better choice, more versatile.

Do you mean multi-classing into sniper slayer? Sniper is better now that they've errata for deadly range, it doesn't give that much really. You can use regular slayer talents to do much he same thing.

If you're thinking about slayer, I'd say go ahead with a 2nd level of ninja to pick up the trick, then switch to either vanilla slayer, vanguard slayer, or stygian slayer.

Vanguard gives excellent initiative boosts and a teamwork feat, and you'll pretty much always be going first and acting in the surprise round.

Stygian gives you extra sneakiness and the ability to use spell with trigger items to augment it. More invisibility, eventually a version of gaseous form. Very ninja-themed.

Vanilla is very flexible and the best choice if you want more ranged ability.

How do we determine new Hit Points?

Vanishing trick is awesome. It'll let you always get sneak, maneuver around without provoking AoO (so you can set up flanking and then use ki for extra attack) and scouting. It can also be used after you attack to make you safe from harm (and if the enemies want to move away from you more than 5 feet they'll provoke a sneak attack AoO) I'm not sure it's all that versatile (forgotten trick is the versatile one), but it sure is useful and powerful. As a quickened vanish, it mimics a 5th level spell.

Shadow Clone is also quite nice. It'll bolster your defenses significantly, probably for an entire combat or maybe two. It does use a standard action though, meaning that ideally it'll be used before combat. It's campaign dependent how often we'll have advance warning of a fight or not. If we do have advance warning, it's seriously awesome, but if we don't, it you probably only want to use it for the most dire circumstances as you can't both use it and attack. It's unclear to me if you get extra clones as you level like mirror image, but I'm leaning against interpreting it as you don't get it. That means it's slightly worse than a 2nd level spell, which is obviously quite a bit less than a 5th level spell.

Despite all these words, my suggestion is the same as Sholti. Get Vanishing Trick now, it'll bolster both offense, defense and scouting. Maybe you can pick up Shadow Clone next time. Forgotten trick as I mentioned is versatile, but imho too costly, both in terms of actions and Ki.

Dips in any other class will delay your progress to 10th level and the awesome master ninja tricks (especially the improved vanishing trick one, quickened greater invisibility mimics a 8th level spell). I don't think I would recommend dipping slayer, unless you got a very specific plan in mind (and are willing to delay your 8th level spell). Pathfinder really does not reward multiclassing.

Finally Irisa will get color spray to make her useful in combat :). Though sadly quite a few devils are immune to mind-affecting effects. I wish there was some way to overcome that.

How do we determine new Hit Points?

Either 1/2 Max +1 or roll, your choice.

Can we roll and then take 1/2 max +1 if it's better? :)

I would go shadow clone.

And multiclassing is hurtful in pathfinder. Which is why I only ever do it if there is a prestige class I really want to play.

I think Sholti's suggestion is better (half if you roll and get low also works). Either way I'll risk it:
1d8 ⇒ 8

I find that it's quite nice if everyone post summaries of their level ups. That'll let the others see what new cool things each other can do. It'll also make it much easier to doublecheck thing and we can even do it ourselves, taking that burden of Hells Angel.

Irisa level up:
+11 HP (+8d +2con +1FC)
+1 will
+1 BAB
+5 skillpoints (+1 disable, +1 diplomacy, +1perception, +1 knowledge(religion), +1 knowledge (planes))
+2 background skills (+1 handle animal, +1 knowledge engineering)
mystery spell: Color Spray
spells per day: +1 1st
extra spells known: 0th: Light

I was thinking sniper since I could easily get sneak attacks off from range, then use Vanishing trick.

The versatility of vanishing act I meant was that it can have uses out of combat. Also probably useful in a greater range of situations as you mentioned Irisa.

If the Fractional Base Bonus rules from Unchained are used, multi-classing isn't so painful, but you still lag behind in getting the higher level abilities. Slayer would only really be a good switch if Hiranno wanted to be more melee oriented. A Slayer dip wouldn't be a good idea I think, so it would need to be a permanent change. Slayer does get access to rogue and ninja tricks, but it would be delayed a couple of levels.

Really it would depend on what you want to do with your character Hiranno. If you want to be a tougher fighter slayer can do that. If you want to be sneakier stay with ninja.

There's an interesting thread about the question of using invisibility to re-sneak for multiple uses of the snipe ability. The consensus has seemed to be that it can only be used once. The argument has hinged on what "completely unaware" means.

After using vanishing trick after the first attack, the opponent may not know "where" you are, but they know "that" you are. They're not completely unaware of you anymore.

It can work well combined with the assassinate slayer talent but it will hard to succeed and that's a long way off around 10th level I think, about 12th with the delay for switching classes.

A slayer honestly isn't that much tougher than ninja since Hiranno's favored class is ninja and she can put the bonus into HP. D8 with favored class is the same on average as D10 without. It would improve her fortitude save though.

I'm pretty sure that Deadly Range works with vanishing trick. That said I still don't think it's worth it. You only really start to benefit once you get further away than 30 feats. That means no shurikens, your best ranged weapon by far. Hence in order to benefit from that you would have to use a bow. There are two problems with using a bow for Hiranno:

1) Using a bow is quite feat intensive. Most people consider it essential to get Rapid Shot and Precise Shot latest at level 3, while you would have to wait until 7th to get both and you are still missing manyshot, deadly aim and improved precise shot etc.

2) You are allowed unchained finesse! This is a gamechanger allowing you to add dexterity to damage starting at level 3. However it doesn't add work with bows. Due to this I feel that your best option by far is to go into melee. Careful positioning combined with vanishing trick and eventually shadow clone should keep you fairly safe even in light armor.

Edit: I see now that it was DM Alistair that allowed Finesse Training. Are you still ok with it Hells Angel?

Looking forward to see the summaries from the rest of you :).

As far as I know there hasn't been anything official about deadly range and multiple shots using vanishing trick to re-stealth. The thread's majority said no.

Yep, pathfinder hates sniping.

Ok, Vanishing it is

Not much time but I think this is everything:

+1 BAB
+1 Reflex
+1 Will

Bard: Versatile Performance (Sing) / Well-Versed

Spells
0: Ghost Sound
1: Charm Person

Skills +1:

Acrobatics
Climb
Intimidate
K Local
K Planes
Spellcraft
UMD

Perform (Background)
K Geography (background)

I'm going to take another look at skills and might shift a point or two yet before I commit them to Sholti's sheet.

Quite often I've seen it be allowed to shift away the skillpoints put into skills that get replaced by perform. In Sholti's case she got 1 rank in bluff. Would she be allowed to move that rank somewhere else, now that she can use her perform (sing) modifier instead?

That would be nice!

Quite often I've seen it be allowed to shift away the skillpoints put into skills that get replaced by perform. In Sholti's case she got 1 rank in bluff. Would she be allowed to move that rank somewhere else, now that she can use her perform (sing) modifier instead?

Sure.

HP: 1d8 ⇒ 8

Hooray!

Plus 11 HP

Thanks, I'll look at where to move that point to...

If the Fractional Base Bonus rules from Unchained are used, multi-classing isn't so painful, but you still lag behind in getting the higher level abilities. Slayer would only really be a good switch if Hiranno wanted to be more melee oriented. A Slayer dip wouldn't be a good idea I think, so it would need to be a permanent change. Slayer does get access to rogue and ninja tricks, but it would be delayed a couple of levels.

I approve Fractional Base Bonus Rules.

Can we roll and then take 1/2 max +1 if it's better? :)

One or the other BUT I will allow multiple re-rolls if you only get 1 HP.

Sticking with 1/2+1+CON

I'll still stick to Ninja. Update will be posted soon

I'm still trying to settle on spells... I want to make sure I something really useful.

I'll take the 1/2 max +1, as I usually roll terribad for HP.

+1 BAB
+1 Reflex
+6 HP
+1 Fav. Class Bonus HP

KI Pool
- 4 Points

Ninja Trick
-Vanishing Trick

Background Skills
-+1 Linguistics
-+1 Profession: maid

Skills
-+1 Sense Motive
-+1 Perception
-+1 Stealth
-+1 Diplomacy
-+1 Intimidate
-+1 Disable Device
-+1 Disguise
-+1 Bluff
-+1 Climb
-+1 Sleight of Hand

+1 BAB
+1 Will
+6 HP

Hex: Fortune

Skills:
Appraise: +1
Diplomacy: +1
Knowledge(Arcana): +1
Knowledge(History): +1
Knowledge(Planes): +1
Perception: +1
Profession(Fortuneteller): +1 (BGS)
Profession(Shop Keeper): +1
Spellcraft: +1

Spells:
Hex Vulnerability
Ill Omen

I didn't separate out my level increases, but my new stat block is up.

Finally got Lay on Hands and Smite.

Forgot Im getting Strix or maybe something more demonic.

Zeldana, my suggestion for spells. Sadly witch doesn't have many great AoE options at level 1:
Ill Omen: C-c-combo with Irisa's persistent color spray. Roll 3 saves (and at level 5 four saves) or fall unconscious. It's mind affecting though.
Web Bolt: If Hells Angel allows it for non-drow its imho one of the best first level spells for a witch, stopping movement completely and imposing significant penalties to AC and attack. Reflex is often the weakest save for monsters and having something able to target a different save than Irisa's Color Spray is nice.
Adhesive Spittle: This again depends on Hells Angel. If you are allowed to spit the bag with the same action as casting the spell it's about as good as the previous spell on the list. If you are not then this spell is trash. The effect of a tanglefoot bag is quite similar to grapple. Also targets ref. Do note that it got significant shorter range.
Shadow Trap: A version of the above that targets will. Though there is no GM question for this one.

@Hells Angel: There are a number of questions for you in this post (as well as one above about Hiranno's Finesse).

I did think about Web Bolt, but it wasn't in the normal spell list... So, GM?

Uh, did Irisa give away her cloak? I still have it listed on my sheet/stats, but I seem to recall having given it away.

Yes, I am ok with Finesse Training.

I think Irisa let Sholti or Tiel borrow it at some point!

OK with Web Bolt in fact from what I can see there is no restriction on it.

Adhesive Spittle seems to allow you to spit in the same round you cast as it is a standard action so I would agree with Irisa's interpretation.

I will likely have the I/C thread updated Saturday as I have 5 other games to update tonight and my table top D&D game tomorrow night just an FYI.

Racial Spell

This spell was originally created for Drow. Characters or creatures of other races can learn to cast it with GM permission.

@Zeldana: Check out the harrowings Rednal/Saeri does in this(first in post 9 on page 3) and this thread. They are quite cool. Not saying you have to do similar things as I imagine they are quite a bit of work (especially if you don't know harrowing already), but it is an option if you want it.

Yeah, I think Sholti has it although I didn't make a note of it.

Right, let's make the switch on our sheets then :).

What do we have of unassigned gear after our latest set of escapades?

It would be nice if someone decent at Appraise could roll for the various braclets etc. It can be used untrained if no one got it trained, though the dcs are usually fairly high.

Alright, I think everything is leveled up now.

Forgot to include +2 rounds of performance earlier.

I moved the point from Bluff to K Nobility.

Could have Livinia Appraise all that you have gathered thus far.

I will have the Gameplay thread updated to move forward tomorrow evening.

This AP gives two options moving forward: (1) use a Rebellion Sheet located in the Player's Guide to track how far your progress has come or (2) you can simply free form the AP and move along without the specific tracking.

Any preference from you players for how to do it?

I've always been more of a free form person! XD

I actually like the Rebellion rules so (1) for me.

I'm of two minds about using the rebellion rules. On the one hand, I can see it lending coherence to something that seems like it's going to be very abstract. I'm assuming we must have a rebellion going on of course, and without something to define what the rebellion is, it could be weird to have it just "out there" happening without us engaged very directly in it.

On the other hand, it might be burdensome to take on the book keeping and so forth to run it that wy, especially in a PbP. Also Paizo has a history of bad special rules systems in APs that wind up getting thrown out because they don't work well.

I think I'd be fine with either. I suppose we can always toss out the rebellion rules if we start with them and decide we hate it too.

I'm with Sholti on this one. Try it out, but toss them if they don't work. That said, I feel the opposite way about the bookkeeping. It'll be a million times easier in pbp than in a live game. It's much easier to do such things when you got plenty of time between moves than if you have to stress in a real life session.

All right, I'll format the campaign tab and you can use that format to track. Let's use the Recruitment thread for tracking. Make sense?

I'm with Sholti on this one. Try it out, but toss them if they don't work. That said, I feel the opposite way about the bookkeeping. It'll be a million times easier in pbp than in a live game. It's much easier to do such things when you got plenty of time between moves than if you have to stress in a real life session.

That's true. I'm thinking more of the procrastination aspect of it. Should we elect a bookkeeper? Any volunteers? I'll do it if nobody else wants to.

i have some spare sheets for my home game, I could easily keep track.