paizo.com Recent Discussion Posts for DMDM's Hells Rebelspaizo.com Recent Discussion Posts for DMDM's Hells Rebels2018-03-14T21:20:07Z2018-03-14T21:20:07ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionStricia (alias of Azih)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7322018-05-22T23:55:52Z2018-05-22T23:55:52Z<p>Yeah I'm truly sorry it didn't work out. Just to answer the last question (truly not trying to get the last word in!). I wanted Rooftop to start the blackmail session right when Zeldana asked for the card back at the end of April. Unfortunately Pbp is not a good medium for back and forth dialog. Too many delays.</p>Yeah I'm truly sorry it didn't work out. Just to answer the last question (truly not trying to get the last word in!). I wanted Rooftop to start the blackmail session right when Zeldana asked for the card back at the end of April. Unfortunately Pbp is not a good medium for back and forth dialog. Too many delays.Stricia (alias of Azih)2018-05-22T23:55:52ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionDM_DM (alias of Douglas Muir 406)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7312018-05-22T22:00:27Z2018-05-22T22:00:27Z<p>Okay, so it looks like we're done here. I am sorry. I started this with enthusiasm and good intentions; I thought it would be easier to pick up a partially complete campaign than to start one from scratch. This turned out not to be the case. Also, Real Life happened; without going into detail, March and April turned out to be very, very distracting.</p>
<p>So, again, my apologies; thank you for playing.</p>
<p>Doug M.</p>Okay, so it looks like we're done here. I am sorry. I started this with enthusiasm and good intentions; I thought it would be easier to pick up a partially complete campaign than to start one from scratch. This turned out not to be the case. Also, Real Life happened; without going into detail, March and April turned out to be very, very distracting.
So, again, my apologies; thank you for playing.
Doug M.DM_DM (alias of Douglas Muir 406)2018-05-22T22:00:27ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionSera Vasara (alias of ginganinja)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7302018-05-22T21:59:46Z2018-05-22T21:59:46Z<p>Ok so they want us to do something we don’t want to do. Apparently they are too strong to fight, so we basically need to say yes here - definition of a railroad right there. Like, no matter how this gets spun, it’s bad. In addition, none of this helps us feel better about ‘save the tiefling slums’.</p>Ok so they want us to do something we don’t want to do. Apparently they are too strong to fight, so we basically need to say yes here - definition of a railroad right there. Like, no matter how this gets spun, it’s bad. In addition, none of this helps us feel better about ‘save the tiefling slums’.Sera Vasara (alias of ginganinja)2018-05-22T21:59:46ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionDM_DM (alias of Douglas Muir 406)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7292018-05-22T21:49:20Z2018-05-22T21:49:20Z<p>Stricia, crossposted with you.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Stricia wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Of course in a meta game perspective there's a bunch of bad things we as players got hit with in succession (losing a critical item PLUS terrible rolls PLUS getting attacked by enemies we can't see for <i>significant</i> damage PLUS higher level NPCs being meanies). That's definitely a heck of a lot to deal with in our first non roleplay encounter. Especially since it's all in a row.</blockquote><p>In retrospect, I agree with this.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>Zeldana rolled a 22 on a Diplomacy check to get her cards back. Rooftop responded with a one liner that didn't say anything about the cards.</blockquote><p>We probably should have had the "what does Diplomacy actually do" conversation, since it comes up a lot and different GMs play it differently. There are situations where the Diplomacy skill isn't very helpful. Under RAW it changes creatures' attitudes towards, but that doesn't necessarily divert them from a course of action. Diplomacy wasn't the best tool here — the tieflings are determined to blackmail you. (More precisely, they're determined to protect their people, and they think blackmailing you is the best way to do that.) Diplomacy might cause them to give you easier terms and/or feel a bit bad about the whole thing, but from their POV they're acting for the good of their people and you guys are disposable strangers: omelettes, eggs.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>I think Zeldana played her character perfectly. And I think I played Stricia ok. Stricia is, after all, a fully Lawful Good Monk with a high sense of fairness, a lot of loyalty to Zedana who she <i>quite likes</i> thanks to a lovely shopping trip she was treated to among other things, and a completely unsurprising disdain for criminals.</blockquote><p>I have no problem with that. But I do wish someone had asked "Well what do you guys <i>want</i>?" instead of proceeding straight to threats.
<p>Groveling wasn't an issue. Rooftop's motivation is the same as yours: he wants to find the killer. His group is pretty tough, but the killer doesn't attack groups. So his solution: use a stalking horse. But he doesn't want to use his own people, because he views himself as a neighborhood protector. Ah, but then you guys come along. Problem solved! You're outsiders, so he's perfectly comfortable putting <i>you</i> at risk.</p>
<p>If the rolls had gone differently, Rooftop might have approached you to bargain instead of going for blackmail — either because he didn't get the cards, or because you seemed too tough to push around. In that scenario you could end up with a team-up, albeit one complicated by mutual mistrust. </p>
<p>Anyway. Some lessons learned here for me, for sure.</p>Stricia, crossposted with you.
Stricia wrote:Of course in a meta game perspective there's a bunch of bad things we as players got hit with in succession (losing a critical item PLUS terrible rolls PLUS getting attacked by enemies we can't see for significant damage PLUS higher level NPCs being meanies). That's definitely a heck of a lot to deal with in our first non roleplay encounter. Especially since it's all in a row.
In retrospect, I agree with this. Quote:Zeldana rolled a 22 on a...DM_DM (alias of Douglas Muir 406)2018-05-22T21:49:20ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionDM_DM (alias of Douglas Muir 406)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7282018-05-22T21:21:24Z2018-05-22T21:21:24Z<p>Welp. Just this one point:</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sera Vasara wrote:</div><blockquote> Instead, random NPCs get introduced with the goal of discouraging help- and yet they ask for it. I assume their bargain is for us to do exactly what we were doing anyway in exchange for the cards. It’s pointless and silly. This is like me asking a friend for help, having my friend agree and then randomly punching him in the face and asking again and expecting the same level of assistance. It’s utterly illogical, </blockquote><p>They're not random NPCs, and they're not asking you to "do exactly what we were doing anyway". They have a plan, it involves you, and you probably wouldn't like it. So they're going to twist your arm. "Like me asking a friend for help" — •they• didn't ask for your help. You know that you're heroes! They don't. They're suspicious to the point of paranoia, and with good reason.
<p>I take seriously the idea that I've made a misstep here. I've been DMing for... a very long time, but I can still screw up. And maybe I have here, and I take the criticisms seriously. So I'm open to the idea that this was poorly structured, excessively antagonistic, what have you. But there's reasoning behind it, and it makes perfect sense from the NPCs' point of view.</p>Welp. Just this one point:
Sera Vasara wrote:Instead, random NPCs get introduced with the goal of discouraging help- and yet they ask for it. I assume their bargain is for us to do exactly what we were doing anyway in exchange for the cards. It’s pointless and silly. This is like me asking a friend for help, having my friend agree and then randomly punching him in the face and asking again and expecting the same level of assistance. It’s utterly illogical,
They're not random NPCs, and...DM_DM (alias of Douglas Muir 406)2018-05-22T21:21:24ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionStricia (alias of Azih)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7272018-05-22T20:47:37Z2018-05-22T20:41:29Z<p>Well I wasn't planning on posting anything but since we're in discussion mode I guess I will.</p>
<p>Of course in a meta game perspective there's a bunch of bad things we as players got hit with in succession (losing a critical item PLUS terrible rolls PLUS getting attacked by enemies we can't see for <i>significant</i> damage PLUS higher level NPCs being meanies). That's definitely a heck of a lot to deal with in our first non roleplay encounter. Especially since it's all in a row.</p>
<p>But the reason I personally got stuck here was IC reasons.</p>
<p>1. The stakes: If it had been anything other than Zeldana's tarot cards stolen then my character would have been very much in favour of calling the trip a lost cause and retreating. MAYBE Stricia would have later suggested the team come back and try again while avoiding the rooftop people. Maybe not. And the reason she wouldn't have suggested making a deal with Rooftop is...</p>
<p>2. NPC ignoring the one thing IC and OOC we care about for sooo long. Zeldana rolled a 22 on a Diplomacy check to get her cards back. Rooftop responded with a one liner that didn't say anything about the cards. Then when Zeldana asked for them again you, as the GM said that Zeldana's IC mental state was getting to the point that Diplomacy wouldn't be possible anymore because <i>that's how important the cards are for her now</i> and Rooftop still doesn't say anything about the cards in his next statement. At which point Zeldana informs Rooftop that she's going to fight to get the cards back.</p>
<p>I think Zeldana played her character perfectly. And I think I played Stricia ok. Stricia is, after all, a fully Lawful Good Monk with a high sense of fairness, a lot of loyalty to Zedana who she <i>quite likes</i> thanks to a lovely shopping trip she was treated to among other things, and a completely unsurprising disdain for criminals.</p>
<p>Seeing Rooftop ignore Zeldana's request two times led Stricia to conclude that Rooftop wasn't going to give the cards up. It's only then that Rooftop finally starts talking about a bargain for the cards. </p>
<p>All this stretched out over a couple of weeks of real time in which as players and as characters we are thrown into a fraught situation and met with nothing but setbacks and no detectable positive reacion to the one good roll that we did have. Some of this was because of dice rolls sure; but not all of it. I mean Sera already OOC let you know that things were getting frustrating on the 25th of April!</p>
<p>I think if, back on the 27th of April Rooftop had just said that he was willing to bargain to give the cards back rather than engage in witty repartee that stretched on till the 14th of May then we would have been fine. It's only on the 14th that we found out the NPC was willing to offer an out and even THAT was only after two people had dropped out.</p>
<p>I don't know. The conversation with Rooftop seems to have played out like a text adventure game and we weren't typing in the right keywords in the right order to get Rooftop to get to the point and play the next cut scene. I was honestly wondering until the 14th if Rooftop wanted the team to <i>grovel</i> or something, which my character wasn't going to do because of what I imagine her to be and I wasn't going to do because I don't find that a fun game experience except as a bluff by a face character.</p>
<p>The slow posting was a drag too of course. But in my experience slow posting is fine as long as there's a OOC note informing people of that. </p>
<p>Is this on the players or on the GM? I have my opinions and others might have differing ones. Doesn't really matter in the end.. I do think there was a mismatch of expectations though. Maybe that's all it was.</p>Well I wasn't planning on posting anything but since we're in discussion mode I guess I will.
Of course in a meta game perspective there's a bunch of bad things we as players got hit with in succession (losing a critical item PLUS terrible rolls PLUS getting attacked by enemies we can't see for significant damage PLUS higher level NPCs being meanies). That's definitely a heck of a lot to deal with in our first non roleplay encounter. Especially since it's all in a row.
But the reason I...Stricia (alias of Azih)2018-05-22T20:41:29ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionSera Vasara (alias of ginganinja)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7262018-05-20T23:57:04Z2018-05-20T23:57:04Z<p>In addition, 2 further points in response to the GM above.</p>
<p>Firstly, we rolled fine on diplomacy - remember that we are level
<br />
2. If you want to set an unrealistic DC - by all means, but then you limit the options a PC has. Furthermore saying ‘It’s not me, it’s the dice’ is a pointless arguement. This is home brewed as GM you decide what options are left. If low percentage options are left then that is on you. Saying ‘it’s the dice’ is a cop out since this situation was designed in this way.</p>
<p>Lastly - this entire character situation is needlessly antagonistic. We were already going to help. Free of charge. Clear to anybody. If you left it alone we probably have this solved. Instead, random NPCs get introduced with the goal of discouraging help- and yet they ask for it. I assume their bargain is for us to do exactly what we were doing anyway in exchange for the cards. It’s pointless and silly. This is like me asking a friend for help, having my friend agree and then randomly punching him in the face and asking again and expecting the same level of assistance. It’s utterly illogical,</p>In addition, 2 further points in response to the GM above.
Firstly, we rolled fine on diplomacy - remember that we are level
2. If you want to set an unrealistic DC - by all means, but then you limit the options a PC has. Furthermore saying ‘It’s not me, it’s the dice’ is a pointless arguement. This is home brewed as GM you decide what options are left. If low percentage options are left then that is on you. Saying ‘it’s the dice’ is a cop out since this situation was designed in this way.
...Sera Vasara (alias of ginganinja)2018-05-20T23:57:04ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionSera Vasara (alias of ginganinja)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7252018-05-20T21:40:57Z2018-05-20T21:40:57Z<p>Oh right, yes just making it clear I left this as well after my previously posted concerns. </p>
<p>The biggest problem right now are the clash of things run ‘by the book’ vs home brew.</p>
<p>Here was the situation as I read it.</p>
<p>A serial killer was killing and creating unrest. Thrune would then use the excuse to move agents in and crush the slum. Therefore send an NPC to enlist PCs aid, find the killer, therefore removing thrunes excuse to move in. Simple.</p>
<p>Enter the home brew element.</p>
<p>Zel gets her significant item stolen the moment she enters. A PC almost died from an ambush set had she failed a reflex save. Talking doesn’t work, fighting doesn’t work.</p>
<p>So a further two points. Why are we here? If these people are capable enough then why where we called in? Let them do it if they are extremely strong.
<br />
Second, the IC response is ‘screw you solve your own problems’. This home brew element has needlessly antagonised this situation - we were already going to help until this homebrew element got introduced - it’s at cross purposes with what the book intends.</p>Oh right, yes just making it clear I left this as well after my previously posted concerns.
The biggest problem right now are the clash of things run ‘by the book’ vs home brew.
Here was the situation as I read it.
A serial killer was killing and creating unrest. Thrune would then use the excuse to move agents in and crush the slum. Therefore send an NPC to enlist PCs aid, find the killer, therefore removing thrunes excuse to move in. Simple.
Enter the home brew element.
Zel gets her...Sera Vasara (alias of ginganinja)2018-05-20T21:40:57ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionSholti Amalasand (alias of rdknight)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7242018-05-20T08:57:18Z2018-05-20T08:29:26Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">DM_DM wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I'm not trying to railroad you. Honest! You can see various places where I made unmarked rolls. There were a number of different ways this could have played out. You've ended up in perhaps one of the more frustrating ones, yes. Sometimes the dice will do that. </p>
<p>None of your characters are talkers... yah, that's a thing. It's a social campaign. Talking is going to be part of it. I mean, the NPC has just said "we have a bargain to propose" and players are looking at each other and saying "this sux let's quit"? Except for the one player who is saying "I'm gonna fight now"? I'm honestly not sure if that's on you or on me.</p>
<p>They have (quite reasonably) run a little surgical strike on you to reduce your offensive... </blockquote><p>I've joined a new campaign now, and real life constraints on my time don't allow me the option of playing in more campaigns than I already had. I can't come back to this one.
<p>Since that's so, I'd like to reply to the portions of your post quoted above with more bluntness than I would use if I were staying.</p>
<p>I am sure who the problem is on, and it's on you. I'm not saying you intended anything other than what you laid out in your post, and I'm not claiming malicious intent on your part, but you're the only one who could have prevented the problem.</p>
<p>I've been reading as an observer for a while now, and don't have a direct stake in this particular encounter, but you are railroading them and this is why. First, you kneecapped Zeldana, the one character who is uniquely vulnerable to losing an item. There is no clear reason why the existence of the item would be known, or that it's effectiveness would be known to a group of (presumably) non-witches. So right off the bat the situation is supercharged. She MUST end this encounter with the cards back. You've made it clear ooc that fighting is not a real option, talking hasn't worked, and they can't leave either. </p>
<p>In other words, their option is to accept whatever deal is on offer. That's railroading. Sure there were a couple of bad dice rolls, but that should make certain options more difficult, not impossible. </p>
<p>Second, maybe there were other possibilities that existed before the dice rolls, but we don't know what they were, or why they're no longer available. If you were dropping clues, they were both well buried, and not hard to miss given the high stakes situation you created. If players aren't picking up on clues, it's the GM's job to change how those clues are being delivered, or re-present those clues so there's another chance to find them. Seriously, nobody's going to carefully dissect and parse every word in your posts because there may be a buried nugget somewhere in there.</p>
<p>When 100% of your players have no idea what's happing or why, there's a problem with the information you're providing. Yes, bad dice, being pushed around by more powerful NPCs, and losing agency are frustrating, but that's part of the game. What's <i>really</i> frustrating is simply not having enough information about what's going on to even know how to proceed. That's the situation here. I'm not a part of the encounter and don't get to make decisions about how the characters in it handle it, but I resent on their behalf your implication in your post that they haven't been sufficiently thoughtful or curious about it.</p>
<p>Third, Your ooc communication on these problems hasn't been good. All of the players have been commenting WTF about what's happening for weeks. Sera did so most clearly about a month ago and hasn't posted since. I expect she's gone at this point, and after her post I wasn't surprised. Were you? Maybe at some point earlier there should have been a discussion about the confusion and uneasiness that players were expressing? Or at least some clarification? </p>
<p>About six weeks ago I politely asked if there was a post coming for my character since it had been a while. I received a one word reply that hinted my question wasn't reasonable and that I shouldn't ask again. And then there was nothing to update me at all. All it would have taken was a quick post telling me that I would be back in when a couple of things happened or whatever. It's just common courtesy. </p>
<p>Fourth, none of the above might have played out as it has if it had happened a few months into the campaign. I think everyone here has enough experience with the game to know what's up, and the very same encounter might not have raised any eyebrows with some time in the game together. But the very first thing that happens is a serious, targeted attack on a character before we're used to each other. Given time for building trust and rapport so we know where you're coming from could have made all the difference. </p>
<p>I don't think anyone is rage quitting or just huffing off because things got tough. I've played quite a few PbPs and I'm currently in several. There have been plenty of times when really bad situations have come up, or the odds are against the players, but I've never previously doubted the fairness of what's happening. I know Zeldana has plenty of experience as well (Hi Arenel, this is Mimi in case you didn't know). </p>
<p>I've only left two campaigns ever. One was because I couldn't keep up with a multiple post per day rate of play. The other one is this one. I have never seen multiple players leave a game at the same time for the same reasons. This is not just a normal difference of opinion about something. This is the only time I've wondered about a GMs impartiality in a game. For me at least, this is the core of it. A campaign can be brutally hard or easy and that's all fine as long as I'm confident the GM isn't playing cat-and-mouse games. </p>
<p>I'm perfectly willing to believe my doubts were misplaced, and you aren't doing that sort of thing. Text is a low bandwidth way to communicate compared to face-to-face, and it's easy to misconstrue intentions. With that in mind, I want to say that I'm not angry with you, I don't think your intentions are bad ones, and I don't think you do a bad job as a GM. But in the end, only you can fix the problems with this campaign, not the players. </p>
<p>Since I'm now out, I figured I would lay out my thoughts on the state of the campaign clearly. I hope this post is somehow helpful, and that you all go on from here to have a really fun game.</p>DM_DM wrote:I'm not trying to railroad you. Honest! You can see various places where I made unmarked rolls. There were a number of different ways this could have played out. You've ended up in perhaps one of the more frustrating ones, yes. Sometimes the dice will do that.
None of your characters are talkers... yah, that's a thing. It's a social campaign. Talking is going to be part of it. I mean, the NPC has just said "we have a bargain to propose" and players are looking at each other and...Sholti Amalasand (alias of rdknight)2018-05-20T08:29:26ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionZeldana Amaria (alias of Timeskeeper)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7232018-05-19T22:56:39Z2018-05-19T22:56:39Z<p>I am still here! I'm not out yet.</p>
<p>Right now, in Zeldana's mind, nothing else matters but those cards. Yes she has questions! A lot of questions actually! How do they know about the cards is actually on the top of the list. But she won't get there till she knows they are safe, as it is one of the last things she has to her father's line. Effectively they have her familiar in their hands! She not only has a low wisdom, but she was just <i>used</i>. Her kindness was throw back in her face. </p>
<p>You say they have no reason to like or trust us, but we're not asking them to. They targeted us, for some reason we don't know, and want us to do work for them. Why should they give us back the cards? As a show of good faith, because they obviously want us to do something! Unless I am misreading it?</p>I am still here! I'm not out yet.
Right now, in Zeldana's mind, nothing else matters but those cards. Yes she has questions! A lot of questions actually! How do they know about the cards is actually on the top of the list. But she won't get there till she knows they are safe, as it is one of the last things she has to her father's line. Effectively they have her familiar in their hands! She not only has a low wisdom, but she was just used. Her kindness was throw back in her face.
You say...Zeldana Amaria (alias of Timeskeeper)2018-05-19T22:56:39ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionDM_DM (alias of Douglas Muir 406)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7222018-05-19T22:47:00Z2018-05-19T22:30:02Z<p>Yikes. Okay, well.</p>
<p>1) Obviously I'm tinkering with the storyline. </p>
<p>2) I'm not trying to railroad you. Honest! You can see various places where I made unmarked rolls. There were a number of different ways this could have played out. You've ended up in perhaps one of the more frustrating ones, yes. Sometimes the dice will do that. </p>
<p>Having an important item be stolen is one of the more annoying things that can happen, absolutely. And being confronted by powerful NPCs who can push you around, yup, that can get on people's nerves too. On the other hand, y'all are second level. High level PC, walk through a world made of paper. Low level PC, sometimes you may get pushed around.</p>
<p>Pause for a moment and consider the situation in-game. You're in a poor neighborhood full of physically different people who've been discriminated against, sometimes brutally. Why should they trust you? A really good Diplomacy roll might do it, but nobody rolled that well. Okay, what's Plan B? Meanwhile, you're wearing those jackets... did anyone stop to ask what exactly they mean? Now you're confronted by these people... who exactly are they? The tiefling girl obviously knows; has anyone turned to her and said "who are these guys and why are you frightened of them?" For that matter, has anyone even said to the tiefling gang themselves "who are you?" or "what's going on here?" (Or subtler questions like "How do you know Zel's name?" or "Wait, what do you mean 'you have it on good authority' that the cards aren't really hers?") Nope; you guys have ignored all the plot hooks and cut immediately to demanding the cards back. </p>
<p>Okay, you're totally allowed to ignore plot hooks. But put metagaming aside and look at it from within the game. The tiefling gang is obviously a local power. From their POV, you're unknown outsiders blundering around on their turf asking questions. They have no reason to like or trust you. So they have (quite reasonably) run a little surgical strike on you to reduce your offensive capability while testing your abilities. Now they are, while not friendly, at least willing to talk. "Give us back the cards!" — well, in-game, why should they? They're pretty sure they can win a fight with you. Now they have leverage. Why wouldn't they use it?</p>
<p>The metagame answer is "because players hate losing agency and feeling they're being railroaded or forced into something," but, as noted, you're low level and you got some bad rolls. You're in a bad neighborhood facing some people who probably don't have a lot of Gs in their alignment. I can't really have NPCs just start acting unnaturally stupid or improbably nice. Possibly this was a nasty setup to put on you but the Nursery is a nasty place, yes? Surely that's clear.</p>
<p>3) None of your characters are talkers... yah, that's a thing. It's a social campaign. Talking is going to be part of it. I mean, the NPC has just said "we have a bargain to propose" and players are looking at each other and saying "this sux let's quit"? Except for the one player who is saying "I'm gonna fight now"? I'm honestly not sure if that's on you or on me.</p>
<p>4) Posting has been slow the last few weeks and that's absolutely on me. I am sorry. The last few weeks have involved an unexpected transatlantic trip and a lot of personal stuff going on. Stricia having to hang for six weeks — yeah, that ain't right. My bad. Obviously I need to raise my game if we want to continue.</p>
<p>Do we want to continue? Let's discuss.</p>Yikes. Okay, well.
1) Obviously I'm tinkering with the storyline.
2) I'm not trying to railroad you. Honest! You can see various places where I made unmarked rolls. There were a number of different ways this could have played out. You've ended up in perhaps one of the more frustrating ones, yes. Sometimes the dice will do that.
Having an important item be stolen is one of the more annoying things that can happen, absolutely. And being confronted by powerful NPCs who can push you around,...DM_DM (alias of Douglas Muir 406)2018-05-19T22:30:02ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionStricia (alias of Azih)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7212018-05-15T20:10:44Z2018-05-15T20:10:44Z<p>If Sholti is going to withdraw then that's most of the players gone from the game anyway. I would have loved to continue but I think it might be time to call it. Apologies to my fellow players if this inconveniences you. I really enjoyed playing with you guys.</p>If Sholti is going to withdraw then that's most of the players gone from the game anyway. I would have loved to continue but I think it might be time to call it. Apologies to my fellow players if this inconveniences you. I really enjoyed playing with you guys.Stricia (alias of Azih)2018-05-15T20:10:44ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionZeldana Amaria (alias of Timeskeeper)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7202018-05-15T12:24:48Z2018-05-15T12:24:48Z<p>Yeah, kinda in between a rock and a hard place here. Like Stricia said, nothing Zel has done had made a difference to these people. She explains exactly how she will listen to what they have to say after they return her cards. She's been nice, she's been civil, and they've done nothing but abuse that fact. She has absolutely no reason to trust them, or believe anything they say they'll do. The next post I give in game <i>will</i> be her stating combat. I'll give you Tim to read this and reply to those who have stated things here however.</p>Yeah, kinda in between a rock and a hard place here. Like Stricia said, nothing Zel has done had made a difference to these people. She explains exactly how she will listen to what they have to say after they return her cards. She's been nice, she's been civil, and they've done nothing but abuse that fact. She has absolutely no reason to trust them, or believe anything they say they'll do. The next post I give in game will be her stating combat. I'll give you Tim to read this and reply to...Zeldana Amaria (alias of Timeskeeper)2018-05-15T12:24:48ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionPhillip Gastone (alias of Andrea1)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7192018-05-14T23:18:15Z2018-05-14T23:18:15Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">DM_DM wrote:</div><blockquote> This might be the time to note that, as a DM, I view the idea of a "level-appropriate encounter" as... what did the old pirate captain say? More of a set of <i>guidelines</i>. </blockquote><p>Nah, that was Terry Pratchett and the wizard's rule of guidelines.DM_DM wrote:This might be the time to note that, as a DM, I view the idea of a "level-appropriate encounter" as... what did the old pirate captain say? More of a set of guidelines.
Nah, that was Terry Pratchett and the wizard's rule of guidelines.Phillip Gastone (alias of Andrea1)2018-05-14T23:18:15ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionSholti Amalasand (alias of rdknight)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7182018-05-14T23:00:05Z2018-05-14T22:58:06Z<p>I think I will withdraw from the game at this point. I've been sitting idle, showing "patience!" for 6 weeks now anyway.</p>
<p>I have to agree with Stricia that I don't like the way their encounter has come to together, and feel an adversarial vibe creeping into the campaign. </p>
<p>I hope that's not the case, and the rest of you continue to enjoy yourselves. </p>
<p>Good luck all.</p>I think I will withdraw from the game at this point. I've been sitting idle, showing "patience!" for 6 weeks now anyway.
I have to agree with Stricia that I don't like the way their encounter has come to together, and feel an adversarial vibe creeping into the campaign.
I hope that's not the case, and the rest of you continue to enjoy yourselves.
Good luck all.Sholti Amalasand (alias of rdknight)2018-05-14T22:58:06ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionStricia (alias of Azih)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7172018-05-14T22:21:37Z2018-05-14T22:21:37Z<p>The problem is that I'm feeling railroaded into a confrontation. Zeldana is in a desperate spot, her attempts at Diplomacy seem to be going nowhere and might become impossible due to the mental state she's been placed in. And the rest of our characters aren't talkers. They've offered a reasonable solution but seems like the NPCs aren't going to be responsive to that either. </p>
<p>I know a bad situation when I see one. My character got one shotted for more than half her health from an enemy she didn't even see. But I don't see any way out based on how Rooftop is behaving. I have no idea how to avoid a confrontation. </p>
<p>If this is going to end in a fight that'll result in a TPK then we might as well get it over with.</p>The problem is that I'm feeling railroaded into a confrontation. Zeldana is in a desperate spot, her attempts at Diplomacy seem to be going nowhere and might become impossible due to the mental state she's been placed in. And the rest of our characters aren't talkers. They've offered a reasonable solution but seems like the NPCs aren't going to be responsive to that either.
I know a bad situation when I see one. My character got one shotted for more than half her health from an enemy she...Stricia (alias of Azih)2018-05-14T22:21:37ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionDM_DM (alias of Douglas Muir 406)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7162018-05-14T22:10:26Z2018-05-14T22:10:26Z<p>This might be the time to note that, as a DM, I view the idea of a "level-appropriate encounter" as... what did the old pirate captain say? More of a set of <i>guidelines</i>.</p>This might be the time to note that, as a DM, I view the idea of a "level-appropriate encounter" as... what did the old pirate captain say? More of a set of guidelines.DM_DM (alias of Douglas Muir 406)2018-05-14T22:10:26ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionDM_DM (alias of Douglas Muir 406)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7152018-05-14T22:01:12Z2018-05-14T22:01:12Z<p>Possible fight scene: not to metagame or anything, but there's five of them (that you can see) and only four of you, and "Rooftop" seems awfully confident.</p>
<p>Of course, one of them is a dude with no legs sitting on a little cart.</p>Possible fight scene: not to metagame or anything, but there's five of them (that you can see) and only four of you, and "Rooftop" seems awfully confident.
Of course, one of them is a dude with no legs sitting on a little cart.DM_DM (alias of Douglas Muir 406)2018-05-14T22:01:12ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionZeldana Amaria (alias of Timeskeeper)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7142018-05-10T16:48:31Z2018-05-10T16:48:31Z<p>Yeah.... Ya'll might want to step in here and get those back swiftly... Or this is gonna get bad...</p>Yeah.... Ya'll might want to step in here and get those back swiftly... Or this is gonna get bad...Zeldana Amaria (alias of Timeskeeper)2018-05-10T16:48:31ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionDM_DM (alias of Douglas Muir 406)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7132018-05-10T14:48:55Z2018-05-10T14:48:55Z<p>That was considerably more than a day; my apologies. Normal service should now resume.</p>That was considerably more than a day; my apologies. Normal service should now resume.DM_DM (alias of Douglas Muir 406)2018-05-10T14:48:55ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionDM_DM (alias of Douglas Muir 406)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7122018-05-02T14:42:32Z2018-05-02T14:42:32Z<p>On the road and out of pocket — will try to post in the next day or so.</p>On the road and out of pocket -- will try to post in the next day or so.DM_DM (alias of Douglas Muir 406)2018-05-02T14:42:32ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionZeldana Amaria (alias of Timeskeeper)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7112018-04-24T18:19:53Z2018-04-24T18:19:53Z<p>Also, <a href="https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/acrobatics/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">this</a> is where I got the DC20 thing from.</p>Also, this is where I got the DC20 thing from.Zeldana Amaria (alias of Timeskeeper)2018-04-24T18:19:53ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionDM_DM (alias of Douglas Muir 406)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7102018-04-08T21:24:34Z2018-04-08T21:24:34Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">'Kestrel' wrote:</div><blockquote> What's up for Kestrel? </blockquote><p>Patience!'Kestrel' wrote:What's up for Kestrel?
Patience!DM_DM (alias of Douglas Muir 406)2018-04-08T21:24:34ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels Discussion'Kestrel' (alias of rdknight)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7092018-04-07T16:45:07Z2018-04-07T16:45:07Z<p>What's up for Kestrel?</p>What's up for Kestrel?'Kestrel' (alias of rdknight)2018-04-07T16:45:07ZRe: Forums: Play-by-Post Discussion: Hells Angels - Fox Force Five Hells Rebels DiscussionZeldana Amaria (alias of Timeskeeper)https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMDMsHellsRebels/discussion&page=15#7082018-04-06T19:33:06Z2018-04-06T19:33:06Z<p>Well... That went well...</p>Well... That went well...Zeldana Amaria (alias of Timeskeeper)2018-04-06T19:33:06Z