Yaos, since your leopards aren't doing the trick, it might be worth summoning a group of more intelligent creatures and having them perform Aid Another actions with Mag and Boogie. The AC to pull off Aid is low, and the bonuses stack. That might help our front liners get their hits in.
You're a clever fellow, Mr. Azlain.
Indeed he is. :)
Some smarter creatures coming up.On which topic, how much space is there inside the barrier for more creatures? It must be finite. I might have to look for things smart and small.
Don't forget I hasted everyone and everything before combat started.
Thanks guys.
I don't want to barrel past Magnius' concerns with tactics talk though. Lets get back to the discussion of how to make things fun for everyone. I think a lot of good points have been brought up so far. Let's keep it going.
So, my feeling is that I'm really enjoying the campaign and really want to keep going.
As I've said several times over the past three years, I am equally astounded that we haven't got out of Cheliax yet; I was completely unprepared for how long PbP takes -- even without combat.
But, each time in the past when we discussed the pace, each of the Players and I acknowledged we were enjoying what was happening, and all agreed that we'd go ahead and roleplay one or two more 'events' to wrap things up.
Obviously, now I'm feeling ready to just push through and get the heart of the campaign started -- the (even more) really Sandbox/ Player-driven mode of the campaign: Y'all going to other nations such as Rahadoum and Sargava and infiltrating, subverting, corrupting, and eventually turning the peoples to Cheliax and Thrune/ Asmodeus -- all while keeping a low profile, under the nose of the might of Absalom, Taldor, Osirion, even Andoran.
. . . .
I'm a firm advocate of all of us Players discussing, out-of-game, metagame strengths and weaknesses of the campaign -- and I want to continue proposing that in this campaign, as we've been doing from the beginning: What part didn't work; Where did something done really well happen; did I post too soon; Was the description ambiguous, etc.?
So let's keep this up, through good times and bad.
Under Spoiler Tags below (so as to keep the post more manageable and so that one only has to read a part if one wants to) I've addressed the recent concerns specifically. Look or don't look at your prerogative.
So I took little House Spartaco and Gheradescci County (my creations) and gave the PCs the opportunity to either insinuate yourselves as usurping-powers of its new Barony (within the County) or just the powers behind the new Barony. To my unexpected delight (cuz I like young Baroness Stella Spartaco), y'all decided to aid her and help build her up, making your own stature grow.
It took much longer than I expected for us to roleplay through the who's who of Gheradescci County nobility (House Spartaco), and we slowed it down when y'all answered that some of the NPCs were being introduced too quickly and you couldn't remember who is who -- too many NPCs to learn and juggle in so short a time. But we were enjoying it and we kept on.
Eventually that led to a nice little adventure that would cement your status as powers For Gheradescci County, to my added delight, not merely for the new, young Baroness, but also the Count himself, Vocaturo Spartaco. Your mission: Hunt down the Bellflower Network assassins who killed young Lord Francesco Phandros while on his way to marry young Barroness Stella Spartaco.
I tried to steer it to the port town of Macini (because I hadn't done reading on published Westcrown -- because of Spoilers for Council of Thieves which I want to one day play in), but you guys made it clear you wanted Westcrown and I happily agreed. I just had to make up the NPCs since I wouldn't ruin CoT for myself.
Y'all further asked if I could develop those Westcrown NPCs, to spend a bit of time to develop them for future use in the campaign as resources and I readily agreed -- even though it delayed us further. And I had a great time developing these Westcrown NPCs -- plus it gave us a perfect opportunity to add the two PCs that replaced Alfred Ensbridge when the campaign got too slow for his enjoyment.
So I don't mind the slow pace, and I hope you guys will be forthright about your feeling of the pace of the game as well. If it's time to segue through these last bits of Cheliax, wrapping things up, by all means, let's discuss it.
When Kylian Phandros told Yaos about Winnow he mentioned he liked the idea of making such a powerful ally, but was concerned he was getting in over his head. He wanted a second opinion (and a chance to ally with The Red Widow, Yaos Battori!). He wasn't sure about Winnow's gender, had never seen him in the day and suspected Vampirism, and pointed out that an odd shadow always covered him, and sometimes even seemed to be almost independent of Winnow.
I really like Winnow and had intended that he could become a future contact in Nisroch, when y'all eventually get there to turn them ever more to the worship of Asmodeus or at least part of the Empire of Devils politically.
Now, after I described him beginning the test on the two kids he has it was very evident you did not want him to be an ally and indeed, were hell bent (as it were) to kill him. No problem.
But.
While one of my strengths as DM is that the Players can rely on my internal consistency and thorough development of Setting and NPCs, the weakness I have is that sometimes I don't fudge or alter aspects of such on the fly just to make it work, make it more playable. (I have gotten better at this over the years.)
So when you attacked Winnow I didn't think to nerf him -- I knew a CR 16 Nightwalker would just end the game and I wasn't really invested in that bodyguard being so powerful -- I toned it down and you were able to Banish it. But I kept Winnow as is instead of making him, hmmm, maybe 9th Level. And truthfully, I didn't realize his AC was so much greater than y'all's attack modifier -- I just didn't realize it. That was my mistake when the combat began.
Now, I'm also under the opinion that in a typical "tough-intended" combat a PC should have to roll maybe an eleven or twelve, maybe thirteen, to hit the BBEG. Admittedly, I likely wouldn't have nerfed Winnow that much had I realized his AC was that much higher than your attack -- but I would have a little. ....That said, there are times where it's okay to run away and live to fight another day. ....And Winnow was designed to be a contact but an ally. I'm certainly not going to try to railroad you guys to change your mind and become friends with this NPC. Of course not. But if you choose not to fight him now, if you do run away, he could become a really good villain later on.
You have, after all, tons of info on him for your contact with Kylian Phandros -- And you've rescued the kids.
I still think you can win the fight but I see the same thing you see: It's a steep hill.
You guys can decide.
. . . .
One important final note on Winnow.
He is not designed as a child molester or abuser. I see now that describing the little kids as naked made that note about Winnow a bit cloudy. But it was intended to show that the kids had nothing left to their own, they are completely Winnow's slaves, and prospects for studying to become Clerics or Warpriests or Priests or Summoners or Inquisitors or whatever, of The Midnight Lord. I was heavily inspired by the Pathfinder novel, Nightglass, in which the protagonist's childhood as a student in Pangolais was detailed to great emotional effect.
Obviously my intentions mean little here as it seems the Players interpreted it as Winnow is a pedophile. In fact, my intentions mean absolutely nothing if everyone interpreted it a different way. I apologize.
I'm not willing to spend a tremendous amount of time on this; I feel it's somewhat petty and may be more likely to exacerbate rather than resolve the problem.
I agree that Players, whether DM or someone running a PC, should try to follow the rule, and listen to each other during rules discussion/ interpretation. And initially, though I thought I was certain that Blade Barrier worked the way I thought it did, was willing to look at it closely when Monkeygod brought it up. Maybe I had been wrong. And I was very open in looking at it.
When I concluded that it does work the way I thought I assumed it was a problem in communication with the tactical layout of where the PCs and NPCs were. I tried to make that more clear in Discussion, attempting to both describe it and point out the page I was using as reference.
I guess I didn't do a good enough job of it because Monkeygod took it to a Rules Forum for further clarification. I admit part of me, and I'm not proud of it, wonders if Monkeygod purposely didn't use the Paizo Rules Forum on purpose (and didn't Link where he put it) -- but that's my pettiness. Plenty of other good Rules Forums exist, even if I only go to Paizo's.
Nonetheless, after looking at Blade Barrier (I think) exhaustively, and the area-of-effect rules in the Core, I know how the RAW works. And I know that I followed RAW. And that Magnius should have attempted a Ref Save.
But I guess I didn't describe it well enough -- there is something that Monkeygod said that made me realize there was still some confusion, that Winnow's intention would target The Bogeyman as well, which is not part of the area. But it's just not worth it to get further into it. We don't have a grid to use for perfect clarity and it's just not that important of a combat, heck, of an encounter. I'm willing to let it go. I didn't demand that Magnius attempt his Save and after he posted that other folks agreed with him, I didn't disagree. I let it be.
And I just don't care about it.
Honestly, I'm in a quagmire on this one and would love some help from y'all. Are you at all concerned that if you level up because real-life time is going on forever that your PC will be too powerful for the challenges when you are the Agents Abroad? There's a big difference between 9th and 10th Level PCs using Diplomacy and Bluff and Intimidate and Knowledge: Society while roleplaying guile, misdirection, insinuation, blackmail, bribery, etc. than when 14th or 15th Level PCs are doing it. Note that at a mere 8th Level your Skills are such that for the common citizen or merchant, what you say is pretty much an auto-success. Heck, even some town guards. The fun in the roleplay is dealing with the higher level NPCs. And I can't just arbitrarily make the higher level PCs in Sargava, Rahadoum, Diobel, Isger and Nisroch even higher level.
I really think this is trickier than just saying, 'Absolutely, let's Level-Up because it's been SOOOO long.' But at this point, I'm more than ready to acquiesce if you feel it's better.
As I said in my above post, but realize it may have not have come across clearly:
I actually do not mind us still being in Cheliax, as there's such an incredible amount of awesome plot and intrigue just within the nation itself.
While the original point of the campaign was to go forth and subvert other countries, I would be okay with just sticking in Cheliax for the 'remainder' of the game. Not that I don't want to pursue the initial goals as well, but the Empire of Devils is such a rich setting, I wouldn't be too terribly disappointed if we opted to stay 'home' as it were.
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Regarding Winnow. His AC being so high isn't the sole problem. There are ways around that.
However, his Combat Maneuver Defense also being that high is really bad. I'm guessing his eidolon must be seriously jacking up his Str/Dex because otherwise, I see no way his CMB could possibly be a 31. Magnius has an 18, meaning Winnow's is 13 points higher than his.
Let's say he's 12th level. That puts his BAB at at +9, so that's 19 right there.
Meaning he needs to be getting a +12 from Str and/or Dex. Which would a be a 22 in each. Which isn't impossible, but seems a little unlikely that his eidolon would have two decently high stats like that.
This encounter is pretty much a train wreck, despite you not intending us to fight Winnow. PCs messing up GM plans is one of the founding aspects of D&D.
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I really don't think leveling us to 9th level is going to greatly break the game.
Azlain is the only one getting access to teleport at this level. Assuming he opts to learn the spell(and I think it's at least a semi safe bet he will), the most he can cast it is 3x per day, for 900 miles a casting.
Which, is a lot to be sure, but I do not believe it's overly game breaking. Also, I'm not entirely sure we'll be spam casting teleport, blinking all over the Inner Sea.
One thing ya gotta remember, *especially* for this type of game, is that we the PCs are going to be working with you, the GM, to create an awesome story. You need to trust us to not abuse things, and play the game in a way both you and us will enjoy.
Also, if you do decide to level us to 9, there's no reason you need to then level us to 10 any time soon.
In fact, depending how the game goes, that could be held off till after our fist successful subversion. Or late in that process.
Now I feel like not taking teleport just to be obstinate. ;)
I’m going to school for a couple hours tomorrow afternoon to get some work done and I’ll check Winnow’s CMD and make sure I got it right. I’ll post the crunch under a Spoiler tag. But Lordy knows I’ve gotten things wrong before.
(I ever tell y’all the time some PCs were laying siege to an evil prison and were getting pelted by my longbow-men archers on the walls as they advanced; ....several rounds went by, five or six, with my longbowmen rolling d10s for damage, when someone finally realized to ask, “Wait, are longbows d10 or d8?!”
We all laughed, I apologized and sheepishly declared the archers just ran out of their, um, ‘special’ arrows and had to start using their d8 arrows. It was funny. Of course at the end I allowed the PCs to find a handful of the ‘special’ arrows not broken for their own use as a more tangible apology.)
Just to add my thoughts on what has arisen, that I haven't said earlier.
In Cheliax/ Out of Cheliax-
I was rather surprised that we have spent so long in the prelude within Cheliax. But the campaign has been excellent so I don't care.
Winnow
I didn't expect him to be as tough as he is. But he wasn't intended as an opponent. I have already begun thinking about how to run away w/o anyone dying.
I didn't think he was a pedophile. But it is interesting how much more the players react to abuse of children than abuse of adults. I will bear this in mind when running games of my own.
Leveling I am playing in another campaign that started after this one in which we have gone from lvl1 to lvl4.
But as GM Ray thinks the campaign will work better if we stay lvl 8 I think that is fine. Even if the child in me disagrees. :)
Cashing out treasure/ making purchases
I suggested making sure we do that next. I still think that is a good idea.
Alrighty, I'm going to be off/on for the next week or so with the holidays, as I'm sure everyone else is likely to be as well. Schoolwork is done for now, but I'm moving this week from my house right on the Gulf to a place a little further in town, closer to everything and a full three miles from the water.
But I like the idea of keeping Discussion alive with discourse on the campaign.
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CMD = 31
BAB +9
STR +5
DEX +4
Deflection +2 (Ring)
Dodge +1 (Winnow's Feat)
AC = 31
Eidolon Armor +8
DEX +4
Dodge +1 (Winnow's Feat)
Nat +4
Deflection +2 (Ring)
Shield +2 (Shielded Meld)
Deflection and dodge do not add to CMD, unless those are specific house rules that I believe you never told us about.
CMD= 10 + BAB + Str + Dex + any size modifier. Plus any special bonuses to just CMD.
Huh, I *never* knew that. Somehow I missed that section, and I've looked up CMD many, many times.
Also, Winnow's AC should be a 33, as at 12th level, a synthesist summoner gets Greater Shielded Meld.
So, now I can only hit him on a 19+.
Great encounter...
Winnow is 11th Level.
It’s funny the things we miss; I remember six or seven years ago the Thread started on ‘Rules We Don’t Know’ or something, and finding out that Lesser Restoration has a casting time of three Rounds — I swore it was magically, cruelly added to my Core *after that Thread was started because IT WASN’T THERE before then. (also that Diplomacy takes ten Rounds of talking)
Summoner gets +9 BAB at 12th level....
And the Eidolon gets +9 at 11th.
Ah, okay. I never paid much attention to the Synthesist because it's been banned in literally every game I've ever even considered applying to.
Now I know why. As I said, I'm just going to sit this out. I adamantly will not run away. I refuse to quit a combat because the GM didn't want us to fight the NPC, so he made him OP.
Either Magnius dies here, and I quit the game, or we win somehow.
This has got to be hands down one of the absolute worst encounters I've ever had the severe displeasure of being involved in.
I don't even want to continue the fight, even if Ray decided to nerf Winnow.
OK. This has got rather extreme since I last looked.
I was going to say I have just figured that my leopards can only hit Winnow on a 20 and there is little I can do to improve it. A few stray hits won't take Winnow down. In the circumstances I suggest discretion is the better part of valor, and cowardice is the better part of discretion, and we run away while we still can.
On the encounter, I think if Winnow had come and attacked us then DM Ray could have been accused of a sadistic desire to massacre the party. But he was never intended as a foe, so we should try to get ourselves out of the hole we have dug for ourselves.
Magnius, I don't want to be confrontational about this but I think you're overreacting.
It's a team game. Lets see if we can use good teamwork and tactics to overcome this. Yaos is about to drop a horde on the field who's only job is to give you bonuses.
I'm going to keep piling on the debuffs and canceling enemy spells.
You're going to get your hits in, just give us a bit to set you up for victory. You and Boogey should be waiting until After Yaos and I take our actions before you take yours. That way you'll get the biggest bonus out of whatever we do.
I think we can do this.
I think my biggest frustration is that, after pointing out how difficult Winnow was to hit, Ray admitted that's not usually how he stats his encounters, but since this wasn't supposed to be a fight, he wasn't going to adjust the numbers.
Ie, what was said was acknowledge, but ultimately ignored because well, we screwed up by attacking what should have been an ally.
Also,
My style and gaming background is the GM and the players working together to build a story and world, and while that's mostly ben the case in this game, this encounter is coming across as the GM vs the players with the GM trying everything he can to win.
this encounter is coming across as the GM vs the players with the GM trying everything he can to win.
I really don't think so.
I think things are as DM Ray said, Winnow was not expected to be an opponent. He was intended to be a very powerful NPC who maybe would be an ally later. That is the sum total of why Winnow is so tough imho.
If Ray was doing everything he could to win, being able to target glitterdust because Winnow was too stupid to move after turning invisible never would have worked. So far it's worked twice.
Also, the enemies are targeting each other. Ray is kinda softballing this encounter. It's clear to me he wants us to win.
This whole debacle has me way stressed right before Christmas, so I'm going to hide the thread for now, and come back on Wed or Thurs, hopefully in a better frame of mind.
I hope everyone had an Awesome holiday!
This move (from the Gulf to a bigger place in town) has been both exhausting and exhilarating. Most of it will be done by tonight.
So Monday I ought to be able to get back to our tense little drama.
Welp.
I guess this is goodbye. Ray has decided that it would be best to kick me out. Sad, as I was one of the original players, and while we have clashed, I hold no ill will towards him.
Despite the amount of real life time that has passed since the start of this game, I definitely feel we're still feeling each out as players and GM.
When I GM, I prefer to adjust encounters on the fly, to be fair to my players. If they are struggling, I'll adjust things down, and if they are having an easy time with what should be a tough encounter, I'll cheat a lil to try and make it a bit harder.
While I realize that's not every GM's style, I had hoped that pointing out how difficult Ray made Winnow(regardless of the fact the he was supposed to initially be an ally), he would adjust things down a bit, but sadly, that was not the case.
Anyways, if this is indeed goodbye, thanks for the game Ray, despite our clashing. This is a great concept, and I had a lot of fun.
Goodbye Magnius. I enjoyed playing with you, take care.
Sorry for the horrible delay.
Moving was a much bigger job than I anticipated and I got pretty sick along the way.
I'm (almost) all moved in to my new home and I'm beginning to recover from this flu bug. Just need the weekend or so.
I really hope we're all anxious and ready to get back to the campaign.
.
.
.
.
As he mentioned, I did ask Monkeygod to leave the game. I made the decision solely on the fact that he decided not to take any further Actions in this combat. Ultimately, team comes first. I will run Magnius as an NPC for the remainder of this encounter; I can make a stat block for an 8th Level Inquisitor/ Investigator and use that.
His first Action will be to ask his teammates if we're staying for the fight or making a tactical retreat (intelligence and children retrieved). Then, unless suggested to do otherwise, will help with the withdraw or maybe focus on the Ormyr instead of Winnow whom he is unlikely to hit (unless I see something he can do to Winnow when I build an 8th Lvl Inq/Inv).
Happy New Year!
My sympathies to those with real life problems. Especially Mr Bogeyman who seems up to his eyes in them.
I am doing fine aside from sleep problems. Just for a change. :(
@ DM Ray- You don't need to create a stat block for Magnius. It is already there if you click on Magnius Arvanxi on one of his posts.
Thanks for everyone's patience through the holidays. I'm back at work; the kids get back tomorrow. And I'm fully in my new house and over the flu. I've still got half my house to unpack but life goes on.
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Additionally, tremendous thanks for sticking with the campaign during its recent tension and disgruntlement. If you have any further concerns or comments don't hesitate to bring them up in Discussion, or, if you feel it more appropriate, you can PM me.
Well, glad to hear your personal disruptions and illness are coming to an end DM Ray.
I sent you a PM some time back. No hurry for a reply.
As for recent delays and tension, well delays happen, particularly over Xmas /New Year. And from time to time players and GMs lock horns. This time it got to the point where it was almost inevitable either the player would leave or the campaign die. Well, so it seems to me. I don't have anything else I feel the need to raise.
Things are at a tense and interesting point and I want to get on with things. :)
Since Winnow's so affraid of Ormyr, I was thinking we could use that. Maybe he'll surrender and we can get out of here.
Alrighty,...
I'm pretty sure I got everything in correct order -- some oversight of course is welcome.
But here's my math:
Rd 3:
Unsure of fighting or running, most PCs Hold; Magnius backs out.
Azlain gets rid of Winnow's Dispel on the Glitterdust; Mendacius Cures Azlain.
Yaos has the kids & is Invisible outside.
The Bogeyman makes Winnow Frightened, a 1 Rd Condition that makes him run away on his Turn -- this will Provoke from The Bogeyman & the Air Elemental.
Rd 4:
Winnow runs in fear, provoking.
The Ormyr is now really pissed -- mostly at Winnow for being more afraid of Y'ALL rather than The Midnight Lord. The Ormyr Moves to Winnow deeper in the house and casts Dismissal on Winnow's Synthesized Eidolon. Moving provokes from the two Leopards Flanking the Ormyr -- as well as the Air Elemental IF he either has Combat Reflexes (I think it does.), OR if he doesn't have the Reach necessary to have taken his AoO on Winnow one second prior when Winnow provoked. (But I think the Large Air Elemental does, and would have taken the AoO.)
Now it's y'all's turn.
Note that Magnius was in Hold until after The Bogeyman went and thus his order in Initiative has changed. ....I feel that's the most accurate way to have unfolded that.
.
Azlain has started a Diplomacy -- which takes three Rounds to attempt (a 3-Rd Free Action) -- but Winnow's initial response indicates one of innocence!
....I forget which PC has Profession: Barrister -- I think it was Magnius ....But having "The Charter" seems to be a reference of er, 'diplomatic immunity(?) mixed with some other legal stuff. Assuming the PC with the correct Profession -- or Knowledge: Society (or even Sense Motive I guess), can get what Winnow is saying.
Looks like The Bogeyman Ninja'd me in Gameplay regarding 'The Charter.'
The last part of the previous post mentions Profession: Barrister (lawyer, what have you) and Knowledge: Society . Or even Sense Motive with a tricky DC.
Profession Barrister would be me. I'll make the roll later when I have time for a longer post.
If take 10 is allowed I can make that DC without rolling.
Absolutely you could take 10 on that Profession check -- but Winnow's 27 is sufficient and the post now in Gameplay ought to be good enough for now.
If you guys can kill the Ormyr (or wait for it to get pulled back in Winnow's NightGlass), you can make further Skill attempts while actually studying the paperwork Winnow says he has. (Now that Winnow's Eidolon is gone he's a squishy 11th Lvl guy with a low CON and taking him is easy if he survives the Ormyr's punishment. ....But getting past the Ormyr--?)
DM Ray- Yaos is considering talking to the Ormyr and trying to placate it. This is not exactly the safest or easiest thing to do I know. I would like to make a knowledge (planes/religion) roll to see what I may know about the feasibility of this and how to go about it.
It just so happens I have focus in that skill. I have planned my character to level 17 at least in outline and was planning on taking Greater Eldritch Heritage, Abyssal Bloodline at that level. And one of it's pre-requisites is skill focus KS (planes).
Hmm, I guess it's a bit metagame but,... one could just note that Winnow has an "NPC" title where the Ormyr has a "Creature/ Fiend/ Monster" title. Y'all talk to this Ormyr and all the sudden it'll start getting the title of "NPC."
Is there a way to use the mirror to dismiss the Ormyr?
A UMD check would be required once you have the NightGlass.
I'll get an update of Rd 4 in Initiative asap -- remember that talking for a few seconds is a Free Action so Move and Standard Actions may still be taken.
@ The Bogeyman,
I'll put in the Twisting Fear damage on Winnow in Initiative.
Holy Zszhit Mendacius that was Badd Ass!!
Can't wait to get to work Tue morning and look at my stats to see if that just worked!