Indeed...no doubt there.
Yes, Aardvark, you are doing really well!
Ok, guys, what should we do next? Stay with the Field Marshall and the Dr, or leave for the day?
I would vote for staying with the Field Marshall.
So what's the plan? Rutter still intends to follow one of the docs. Do y'all think the docs will work in the city or go out to the holdings outside of Korvosa? I'd think they'd stay in the city. If y'all are going to ask around, do y'all want to ask around in the same area that the docs are working or do y'all want to avoid them?
I dunno. I'm not opposed to Rutter following the Doctors, but just you splitting off, which is how it would probably need to be for you to go undetected, probably isnt a great idea.
I'm not a big fan of splitting the party, but I understand it has it's uses.
I've always had 2 thoughts on the whole "splitting the party" convention:
1) It's very meta-gamey. We know as players that danger can lurk around any corner, but would the characters really feel like they can't go anywhere without at least 3 buddies watching their back? "Hey, three of y'all want to come to the bathroom with me? I don't want to risk another random encounter in the john."
2) What's the point of stealth, then, if that +20 stealth modifier rogue has to drag along with him the full-plate sword-and-board fighter with no ranks and -10 in armor penalties? Or climb or swim, for that matter, if the party wizard can't follow the barbarian? The barbarian ought to be able to climb up the cliff face with a rope to drop down to the rest of the party, but who knows how many orc warbands just happen to be camping out at the top, there?
Doh, didn't read this OOC thread before I posted IC.
I'm ok letting Rutter go ahead and be careful, but Neva will want him back soon so that she can check up on him. As I recall, we made one save, repaired a bit of the ability damage, but didn't necessarily cure the disease.
My thought is that we could take a day or so, giving Copper, Rutter and Prav a chance to use Gather Info, as well as the more risky "follow the physicians" plan.
Sorry for any silence, work decided we needed all our annual training (due by the end of Sep), to be done and turned in by the end of Feb.
I like that we were at a place for you guys to discuss, though, and it looks like the plan is to rest another night for Rutter to get better, then try seeing what the doctors are doing.
I 'should' be able to knock out a post tomorrow (anywhere from 15-20 hours from now).
Im aware of the drawbacks and benefits of splitting up, I'm just stating my general dislike of the idea. If Rutter wants to go off alone, Copper will not stand in his way. ;)
My suggestion to help stave off the metagamieness would be to start doing posts under a spoiler tab, so we know who all can see what. obviously nothing stops anyone from looking under it, but at least it isnt just there staring you in the face, lol.
I've been meaning to do it for a bit, but I added a decent map of Korvosa to the Campaign tab. It's there anytime I direct you to a location, so you get a general idea of where you're going.
WTF on this doll shop?! When did Geppetto become a meth addict? Creepy and depressing!
:-)
I'm officially into moving week, so I will probably not be able to post again until some time next weekend. Feel free to DMPC me as needed.
Okay, Rutter has introduced a bit of a quandry.
I don't think undead can be coup-de-graced. They are immune to death effects, but a coup-de-grace is a death attack. They are also immune to anything that requires a Fort save, but I don't think they are immune to the auto-crit damage.
I'm thinking, it will still do the auto-crit and sneak attack (not immune to SA in PF I believe), but not have to make the save or die. Thoughts, issues, complaints?
I think you are correct on all counts, so go for it. :D
I understand the apprehension. I reread the coup de grace rules 3 times to make sure I wasn't doing it wrong. The idea of something with 100+ hp being dispatched by an attack that does ~15 points of damage feels like sidestepping the whole challenge.
I'd say, though, that the classic scene of the vampire being staked in his coffin is the perfect example of a coup de grace.
As you noted, undead are susceptible to crits and precision damage like sneak attack in Pathfinder, so undead wouldn't be immune based on that.
I think 'death effects' listed among undead immunities refers to things like spells with the death descriptor, like Symbol of death.
I'm not sure if a death attack is even considered a death effect. But I don't think that coup de grace qualifies as a death attack. If you performed a CDG on a living target, there's no reason they couldn't be raised.
*EDIT (sorry, had to leave my computer in the middle of the post)
I think the only other thing I was going to point out was that any damage reduction would still apply, reducing the Fort save.
Oh, yeah. The immune to fort save thing is the only thing I'm unsure about. Vampires do have a fort save bonus, though they don't have a Con score.
On reading the vampire description (if this really is a vampire), it looks like there are specific rules on killing a vampire, so, while he's not immune to CDG, the text spells out the very specific conditions to execute a CDG for a vampire (staking and beheading).
And this is the argument for metagaming, because there is no way our characters can know about these conditions. A knowledge (religion) check becomes a save-or-die, because without the volume of knowledge, any early encounter with a vampire is pretty much certain TPK.
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These could just be vampire thralls or something else, though, since we dont actually know what it is.
Also, on more than one ocassion, PFRPG has had monsters designed specifically for certain encounters, so this could be a vampire, but maybe a toned down version or something, so its appropriate for a lower level group.
Personally, I'm all for not meta-gaming it, at least for now. CDGing them is understandable, since you would want to make sure they are dead, but if that turns out to not work, then how could our characters have known that. We blew the knowledge checks as far as I am aware, unless Neva would get another chance at it by actually seeing one laying in the coffin...and if she does, dont forget to use the reoll thing from the deck or cards if need be! :P
Sadly, any knowledge rolled untrained still caps at 10. So, extra knowledges would not help unless using a library to research (the one time you can beat DC 10 untrained without some special feat/trait/spell).
As for it being a death attack, the glossary says:
Death Attacks
In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the effect, but if the save fails, the character dies instantly.
then it gives some examples. Since a CDG is a fort save or die automatically, I think it is a death attack... but not a death effect.
This is a moot point, though, since I believe being immune to Fort saves means they cannot be killed by a CDG.
So what's everyone's next character going to be after we all die here? :) I'm going to create an undead-hunting urban ranger.
:-) What, we won't be able to play vampire minion versions of our existing characters?
In my experience, if there is a truly unstoppable encounter for you to face, it's cause:
1) you skipped ahead somehow (My guess)
2) You are supposed to run away from it (we probably should)
3)it's written in to the story that way for some story-driven purpose (being an Vampire would be awesome!)
:P
I'm actually really concerned about this fight. I looked through my old 3.5 MM thinking that maybe they were weaker then and I should power them down, but sadly I think they were a little tougher.
I'm not sure what the plan was in the book for this encounter, maybe they expected all PC's to automatically know how to deal with vampires (not sure why as that would be PC/player knowledge). They are CR 4 creatures, 4 of them, making it a CR 8 encounter, on top of the fact they have somewhat favorable conditions by you guys not knowing anything about vampires.
I really don't want to kill any of you, but I'm also a let the dice fall where they may DM, and at a table always roll in the open. If you guys really want, I would be willing to come up with a Deus Ex Machina to, at the very least, allow you to get out of dodge. Otherwise, I would hate for this singular encounter to completely TPK (Heck, I almost PM'd Felgar to delete his will save post and post again before anyone saw it.)
I say let the dice fall where they may. We (I) didn't have the skill to identify the monsters and so were unable to stab them in their coffins and rack up some easy xp. So be it.
If we live, we'll have something to be proud of.
I just hope Neva survives Felgar long enough for him to get another will save.
At this point running away isn't much of an option because Felgar is already under their control, so I guess it's let the dice fall where they may and fight, and have a spare character ready for the probable TPK coming. It does seem like they assume a lot more in character knowledge, though, to be sure.
I think maybe they did expect us to use metagame knowledge. Or maybe they expected that the group would report back to Kroft when they discovered that it wasn't just a bunch of lazy civil workers. But I would think most groups would have the same reaction as us: investigate it first. After all, nothing really gives us any clue that this is something we can't handle until it's too late.
I was only half-joking about creating a new character. I figured Rutter would get killed by himself in the crawlspace, and when the rest of you report back to Cressida, she'd have a good reason to assign a guardsman to you who just happens to be particularly aggressive to undead.
But I don't know how any group would beat a vampire, if they're not expecting it and educated about it. Any balanced party is going to have a heavy hitter with a low will save. (The same thing happened the only other time I've encountered a vampire - we got wiped out by the barbarian who failed his will save.)
Tactically, if Neva has protection from evil she could give Felgar a chance to get out of the dominance, or if Copper or Pravlox casts grease on Felgar's axe to make him drop it and give Neva a chance to escape.
I'm totally fine with Rutter dying off, if that's the way the dice go. I never mind if a character's story ends. They can't all be farmboys who go on to save the world.
I concur...let the dice fall where they may. New PCs are always an option to keep things going. Who knows, we may get some lucky rolls...we certainly have not had any recently...:-)
I could do the Grease trick on the hope he would drop his weapon, but that's if I knew he had been dominated. As it stands, Copper doesnt know, since I wasnt able to identify the spell, so Felgar should probably get at least one swing out of it before I act. :/
Yeah, I figured once he started swinging, it'd be obvious. Hopefully Neva survives the first swing.
Should there also be a +2 bonus for being asked to do something against his nature, if applicable?
Carbide listed that when he got the extra save.
Also, Felgar, your HeroLab sheet appears to have your Power Attack calculated wrong. At level 4, your Power Attack modifier is -2Att/+4(+6) Dmg.
That extra -1 might be enough to make you miss Neva instead of hit her. *fingers crossed*
Dude, you need to get out of my sheet. I do not need your review or analysis. Thanks, but I have a pet peeve about other players perusing my sheet and making comments. If we were at the table, you would not see it. Therefore, I suggest you do not do so now.
One way or another, I am probably going to be disappearing after this fight is over. My overall situation has stabilized, but the day to day scheduling instability is making it very hard to sustain energy levels where they really need to be for me to be an effective poster, and I will be phasing myself out of most of my remaining pbps over the next month or so. For this campaign, the end of this fight seems to be the easiest foreseeable breaking point.
Dude, you need to get out of my sheet. I do not need your review or analysis. Thanks, but I have a pet peeve about other players perusing my sheet and making comments. If we were at the table, you would not see it. Therefore, I suggest you do not do so now.
Apologies. I was just looking to see what the likelihood of you one-shotting Neva would be.
Traveling for a couple of days, so it's possible I might be delayed in posting. I'll try to keep on it, since we're at such a critical stage, but if some meetings stack up on me....well, just don't call me horrible names, please.
Good point. The DR 3/- may be useful for Rutter and Neva here. What's the mechanic? Is it a free action to use one? Does it need to be on your turn?
If it's a free action, and doesn't need to be on your turn, Rutter will go ahead and use one for the DR.
Are we waiting for Pravlox to resolve the concealed casting question? Is there a reason, besides flavor, that he needs to conceal his casting? Also, not sure if he needed to tumble to avoid AoOs. I thought Rutter had drawn them already, giving him a clear path.
Just eager to progress and see if any of us get out of here alive. Speaking of which, does Neva have Prot from Evil? That might be Felgar's chance.
Sorry, I'm off this week (and all the maps are on my work comp). I've just been finishing up my finals for this semester, so I had a busy weekend as well.
No, he neither really needs to hide his casting, or acrobatic, since they all took their AoO's on Rutter. I will update shortly.
Pravlox, I have been meaning to ask, but kept forgetting. Do you think that you might return after a while, in which case we can leave the spot open for you? I hate to see you have to go, but like always the gaming mantra is "Life comes first."
Like I told Copper when his schedule got a little rough, I have no problem if you need to slow or stop, and we can keep you in the wings when you feel you are ready to hop back in. That is one advantage of PbP over Tabletop, in that the pace allows someone with a busy schedule to not miss a lot until they feel they are ready to continue. Just let me know.
The soonest I could return would be the end of the summer at the earliest. While I certainly appreciate the gesture, don't feel like you need to save a space for me; I'd rather see you fill the space and give someone else a chance to play if you find someone else with the right character to fill it.
Since we still run with 4 players while you are out, the group is not pressured to need another. Being out over the summer isn't so bad, as these things (especially mine at the rate I update it seems) move fairly slowly. I'm sure most of us would have no problem waiting for you instead of trying to work in a new person to replace you.
That being said, I do have a player from my Tabletop group that was asking me if I could get him into any PbP's I'm involved in. How would everyone feel if he joins us while Pravlox is away, and when Prav is ready to return we just have a 6-man party over a 5-man?
If after a while, Pravlox can or cannot make it back in we are good either way.
Thoughts from everyone?
Im fine with your friend joining and 6 manning the group if Pravlox wants to come back later or 5 manning it if he doesnt.
Actually, I'd be fine with us picking up a different 6th if he didnt.
I dont really like any more than 6 for any game, but other than that, I'm pretty much a 'the more the merrier' kinda guy.
Good luck with getting life straightened out, Pravlox. Hope to see you back soon. :)
I prefer a smaller game, 4 or 5, but I'm not a stickler. If you can show up and post, come on in.
Good luck with the summer, Pravlox!
Oh, and the Nat 20 on my touch spell against Felgar...I don't really want to know what part of his body is now REALLY protected from evil. :-)
Me neither...and as for the player, bring him on. Good luck Prav! I really need that friggin' Axe back! Crap!
Rutter can get it for you when he fails his domination save.
We could probably use a 6th, and I'm good with holding a spot for Pravlox if he can return.
I really need that friggin' Axe back! Crap!
Yea....sorry about that... :P
I would have done the same, Copper.
Neva, I think you just only did a standard action. No move action? Maybe to, I don't know, get the heck out of there? Or did you have a new character in mind, also? :)
Oh, Neva wouldn't retreat with Felgar in such a state, I'm afraid.
Who is up?
I don't know if I've mentioned it before, but I don't like the idea of taking AoO's with actions that provoke AoO's. It doesn't make sense to me, and promotes a string of awkward AoO resolutions. It also makes fistfights an AoO fest. If no one disagrees I would like to keep it as a houserule.
A few points about the battle.
Pravlox, I think an eidolon 'sacrifice' to allow an escape is one of the best uses of them. Especially since it can just get resummoned the next day.
Neva, I realize you don't want to leave Felgar, but is there a point where she would realize that she may die being unable to do anything for him? What about the others in the group that are not controlled, would running help them survive? Would leaving and coming back prepared save many others?
I looked on the forums, and there have been no issues with this fight mentioned. The only thing I could think is everyone either made knowledges (or handwaved separation of player/character knowledge) about vampires. Don't forget, with a library and 1d4 hours, anyone can make untrained knowledge checks over DC 10. It may be best to learn about the things and come back.
I am sorry that I cannot contribute to either the decision-making process or actions that result.