A tale told of a place called Haven (Inactive)

Game Master Klokk

Feel Free to continue your conversation in the Tavern until you two are done talking.. Take as much/little time as you need for that.

I just posted Samm/Joel/Klokk's week to give you all an example of what it may look like for you this week.

IF you want to PM me your weeks turn before you post it.. I can adjucate it so you know if the format is right or not before posting it.

Here is all the Council info.. the kingdom rules.

Downtime rules

I know some of you said you don't have the books yet. Most everything is on the PRD.. but that's so tough to navigate easy, I use the pfsrd for looking things up when I don't wanna pull out a book.

One thing to bear in mind. You can not generate gold in downtime, until such time as you find another culture to buy your stuff.

I'll get my post up here in a few hours, gotta go to costco first.

Question: we cant generate gold but we can generate K in resources right?

See the ooc post I just made over there in gameplay.. I shoulda put it here. Basically. you can generate influence/labor this week.

Need an order from the treasurer at council to issue 1copper from the treasury for either magical or goods construction. This week basically the warforged civilians are crafting arms and armor for the Stonescales going on the expedition. in their downtime they are gathering all the supplies scattered throughout the mines, farms, side of the road, all the around the Kingdom and bringing into the warehouses of haven so the table can get an accurate accounting for your first months meeting.

beyond your PCs. nobody has even 1 copper piece. forged ones are all working for free because they wanted to come here or were made here.

I don't think we have gold in the treasury. ..?

you have 2000 gold in the treasury. but that is IT until you build a mint.

The only real purpose of coinage is to make magical items, so for now, I think a mint is unnecessary.

but if we spend the finite coin we have to make them, we wont get to make more coins.

if we make it so our supply of coins is less finite, things would be better.

on the other hand, it is only 0.025% of what we have. so in the interest of things being fair and making sense, and i was thinking of what a big company might do. they would want to see some sort of proposal to justify the expenditure.

that said, i dont want to seem like i am being unfair or anything, so i mean if it is a problem ill just give you the 50 gold. but im just trying to play this like i think it would really go.

Question for those who know better how to use the ultimate campaign stuff:

So the mint costs 30K and that uses up all our stuff?

now that i look at it harder, that doesnt seem like a good idea at all.

we would literally have no food or ANYTHING left.

so how is this a good idea? i got the impression that it was until i looked at it harder.

i mean Fabricator could literally MAKE coins with his own time and labor with some ore. not a lot, but enough for the Archpsion to make her thing.

Absolutely not a problem, I would do the same thing.

The interesting thing about Pathfinder economics is that coins have two distinct uses. One as currency and another as the raw material for magical items. Its value as currency deals with everything except for magical items. Therefore:

1. I borrow 1500 gold (keeping 500 gold reserve in treasury)

Treasury has: 1500 gold debt (notice that this is an asset, since the treasury is promised to receive 1500 gold) + 500 gold reserve

2. I transform that 1500 gold into 3000 gold of magical capital, returning 1500 gold of that capital back into the treasury

Treasury has: 1500 gp magical capital, 500 gold reserve
I have: 1500 gp magical capital

3. You (Fabricator) withdraw that 1500 gp magical capital and deposit a note stating that you can create magical items worth up to 1500 gp

Treasury has: 1500 gp generic magical item note, 500 gold reserve
You have: 750 gp magical capital
I have: 1500 gp magical capital

Notice that the treasury still has 2000 gp worth of assets, in terms of currency. Using a conservative 5:1 leveraging ratio, the treasury can send out 10,000 gp worth of loans. Using this leveraging, we can pump additional currency into the economy.

Right now, we only have 2000 gp worth of currency and a whole buncha resources, which makes a glut of resources. We want to inject more free currency to remedy this problem, so that producing resources will actually be worthwhile.

-------

True. But for the treasury to get that actual currency back, theyd have to sell it. to people we havent met.

IIRC in pathfinder magic item creation does not cost XP.

Right, but this tides us over for quite a while, and any gold that comes into our economy ends up in our treasury.

We are trying to run an economy with 2000 gold, but we could easily get 80,000 gold worth of currency floating around in a rational manner. We just need a trade agreement and gold will start flowing into our coffers.

The 50 gold is useful for me because it lets me perform any knowledge check at +9, which I think is more than worthwhile.

Crap. it looks like you are right it doesn't take XP to make magical items. I don't like that change one bit. IF gold + Time is the only factor for making magical items I may have to re-evaluate even there being one copper piece in the bank.

I was not aware of that, as at my various tables weve run with PF rules so far nobody has made a magical anything in any of my parties. SO TBH started this campaign under the assumption that to make anything magical requires time, gold, XP.

Im sorry, I do not agree with that change at all. If I loose some of you for this so be it, but magical items require XP be created. Specifically they "1/25 of the base price in XP. I am not going to humbly bow and allow Paizo to tell me that's changed."

The other option would be to remove every single coin from all of you. and disallow a mint.

Ok, your the gm after all. You are going to use 3.5 crafting rules correct. Oh and fabricator will need to change up his character a bit. His is modified pathfinder artificer build from here which gets rid of his craft reserve. He will need to change it to the straight 3.5 artificer.

Yup.. I was going to send him a PM and talk to him about his reserve.
But you all may as well see too as some of you may want to be an artificer and some of your warforged are artificers.

Well, I guess since we are discussing rules now.

Are the rules for spellcasting guilds/magical academies from inner sea magic in the allowed pile? If not, I might need some modification of my character. It doesn't really come into effect for a while, but everything that I have made leads up to other things, so I need to make sure that the important rules are in effect, rather than find out far later on.

XP costs for crafting is not a big deal, considering we can just earn xp from downtime. Each day of xp gaining, even at level 1, gives you enough xp to make 10,000 gp worth of magical items. So essentially another form of magical capital.

At level 1 you would earn Cr 1 xp or 25xp a week. doing xp gain a week. which like you said is 10,000 gp.

The problem is the only way to put XP into a craft reserve is by disenchanting a magical item, or leveling as an artificer, or taking it from someone else after 5th. the xp earned via downtime is normal xp. but that can still eventualy be used for making magic items.. so I see your point.

I do not know about spellcasting guilds/academies. Inner Sea Magic is the book? I have most of them. I will check it out when I get home tonight my wrath table. If you know what page its on that will help me find it soon as I get back to the glowing boxes upon my desk.

I am not sure what page, but I think they take up most of the book. Basically it lets you make up some lost caster levels (I was planning to multiclass) if you're highly ranked in a spellcasting guild, IIRC. If it's not allowed, that's fine, but I would need a rebuild into a wizard.

tbh I just walked in the door a few minutes ago. it was a crazy game that lasted a couple hours more then usual. If its that much of the book should be easy to find. I don't think ive even opened it. Ill let ya know after I read it.

Is there something like that for other class guilds? like a pally guild or a thieves guild?

Ill say this. If there are other races in this world you are now within..

Odds are that some of them can use magic. Odds are that amongst them some will have formed various guilds/academies/schools. wherever there are deities there are monastery's. and frankly wherever three or more are gathered there are secrets so I can see secret societies as well.

For you to create one, you would need to physically build the buildings via Council edicts, and set up the organization after you have the building to house them via downtime before you could create a magical school. You can build a normal school or academy or guildhall but unless you add in the downtime stuff too, i wont allow it to have any effects beyond fluff so to speak.

Since this is more of a empire building/kingdom game than a dungeon crawl if something can be done from core, or other books or downtime and via a council edict or other kingdom rule. all other ways beyond kingdom will be overwritten by the kingdom rules. Hence you cannot build a building via downtime rules because you can with kingdom rules.

Im not going to flat out tell you are or are not any in the world, that youll have to see for yourself, but your welcome to create your own.

The Librarium is joels though not haven's, so when the time comes Haven will need to build one to the right specs to grant those bonuses. (joels only grants a +1 to you K checks in there.)

Joel he has granted everyone in haven at the moment permission to read as they wish. But well the books cant leave haven town. nor can they be written in, its almost like they are prefect copies. They also teleport back to the shelf they were found upon if you cross the palisades outside of Haven city. you all have seen the Forged ones in there reading or even carrying around a book with them in town. Then bringing it with them as they leave so it teleports back and standing at that shelf is another forged. in this way you have seen them all reading tomes.. mostly on metallurgy and various metals.
_________________________________

The one thing I am not sure of 100% with kingdom rules. I was reading somewhere trying to figure out city population and that each building actually had X amt of people that were tied to it.. likewise with each improvement. Which if that is true, will drastically change the look and feel of Haven so i need some help clarifying it. Need 100% pathfinder raw clarification. The other times ive run kingmaker or homebrew kingdom building i had the x civilian units.. like they did in the d20 Empire book. I want to try and run this 100% PF for the Kingdom Building rules.

As of right now you have a population of 466.
of which 300 civilians 150 military, 16 other.
But if each mine or farm actually has 20 or 100 people working it. well you have 8 or 10 farms and 2 mines and 4 lumber camps that could be a difference of a couple hundred or even thousand beings. That certainly matters. :)

I do want say one more thing slightly different topic but since its on rules. Since the Pathfinder/Psi stuff i am still learning the rules on. Its another form of magic. Arcane dispel magic will effect your mental tricks. but likewise you can dispel magic with your version of the same.

IF that's why your looking at going arcane class for a little bit or for that matter if anyone else that's arcane is worried bout not being able to effect a psi creature if i throw one at you to try and figure it out it shouldn't be an issue. So like SR=PR in other words they are one and the same. if you get +SR from two things that would stack normally they do. if you get +PR from two things that would stack normally they do.

One slight difference. Detect magic will not show psionics and detect psi will not show magic.

Well, I mean I am very accustomed to the versatility of arcane spells relative to psionic powers (there are just more), so I didn't want to give up arcane casting.

So what you're saying is that first, I need to use kingdom rules to build the academy building, then use downtime rules to build the organization?

In the first. Correct. Im also hinting that there just may be one or more npc run groups.

At level 1 you would earn Cr 1 xp or 25xp a week. doing xp gain a week. which like you said is 10,000 gp.

Where are you getting 25 exp a week, btw?

We can play exp catch up each week fighting one cr=class lvl fight if we end up under the groups total exp. the actual numbers come from the gamemaster part of the core rule book.

Right, but the table says that it's 400 exp per day, and downtime rules confirm this.

Yep he might have made a mistake.

Yeah I was wrong. its 100 not 25. CR1=400x for 4 players. so 100xp a week via downtime

It seems very off that a character can become a level 2 in 5 weeks of not doing any adventuring. Why even bother going on a quest when you can level via downtime if that's the case.

or am Reading it wrong?

Moms been in the hospital since Monday.. so I am not exactly at 100%. all the docs know so far is her heart is 100% ok and that's after 4 days now of testing of all sorts. so if ive sounded kinda short the past week or so that's why.

Before I wrap up this first week for you guys, it looks like resnit has called a quick meeting of the council so respond to him, none of the npcs are present unless he wants them to be.

Well, I think it's actually 400 xp per day. If you look at the example, a level 3 character earns 800 xp per day, which is the same as a CR 3 encounter (the full value of that encounter).

This only works up until level 5, so that we are even with Bastion. After that we'd need to start questing. Honestly, there's not much that can be done at level 1 with no money.

First off best wishes on your mothers health. I know how scary having a loved one in the hospital can be.

Now and I kind of feel uncomfortable asking this does the wayfinder have two ioun slots or one.

it only works up to level 5 the xp gain one.. Ill have to reread that.. ill bring uc up there with me tomorrow when I go sit with her. You wont be first level for long.

Im trying to decide if I want to give you # XP for what all you have accomplished now/at the meeting next week and do everything piecemail or just when X happens your now # level. Im open either way if you all have a preference. Cuz TBH I am not sure if going normal or fast xp route. Ill total things up and see where that would put you all at currently. Really have no preference.. am running two wrath tables here one they want the xp each battle and the others don't care as much if they have somewhere around 2000-3999 XP or exactly 3065XP.

It has the one slot on it with that flawed/chipped stone in there I told you about.. that I cant remember offhand atm.(it was a random roll between a few that I had preselected for it to possibly have)

Far as mom.. they have no clue whats going on. She has chest/back leg pain.. and other symptoms that made them do an angiogram yesterday. Afterwards it turns out that her heart and circulatory system got a gold star.. they are in perfect condition for someone her age who has smoked a pack a day since the 60's. They are in perfect condition for a 20 year old non-smoker is what the doc said. tests tests test everything negative, which is even more stressfull then if we knew she has something life threatening or if it was just some weirdarse bug from something she ate.

I see where your getting that what I thought was a random determination of level 5. Samanthia and joel are both a fair bit higher then level 5.

Im heading up in a couple minutes. Just wanted to go through and checks forums first as she was sleeping when I rang the nurse.

Far as XP goes. I was intending to make It a shared XP.. or Resnit Usal and the others on the expidation will probably gain a level from the exploration of the hexes for the next couple weeks.. basically 100xp a day if they explore a hex. or more if there is an encounter of some sort in it. They could in theory be out for 28 days 4 for travel 1 hex a day = 2000xp each. But if I shared that with the 7 or 8 of you it be balance. As maybe one month the explorers earn 6000 from three teams outxp, town gets attack by something that came thru the door. you guys earn 8000 from that big battle and from that other culture the explorers found. that would give all 7 of you 2000xp from that month. Or it would be 3k for resnit/usal and 1600 for those of you in town.

I really don't care other then its less to keep track of if I do the shared xp and advance everyone together.

I mean, I feel that Samantha and Joel are detached enough that they aren't really part of the same party.

Since some of us will be in town (earning xp using downtime rules) and others will be exploring, I think that we should share the exp. Not that it's in my interest (I would be earning more exp if we did individual), but I think it would set a positive precedent that even though we're all doing different things, they are all important to the group as a whole.

i agree on the shared XP.

however, i would be on the more fortunate end, being in town most of the time, so i think some town encounters would be fair. Diplomatic social encounters for Feorina also have an associated CR sometimes. Some of mine could be an angry elemental, or one of the NPC explorers brings back an intelligent item with designs to disrupt or control our operations.

I have things that will happen in town. at day 101 X happens 106 X happens. day 8 after bringing an back something ya found. There will be challenges in town.

Just a example of two of the types (not exact ones)

Kingdom 3 has something that you want.Options are
Send in the military. kill them and take it.
Send in the diplomants. make them want to give it to you.
Send in a the arcanists to scry it and then the artifacers to make a duplicate of it.

Instead of rolling to hit AC 20, you may need to beat a sense motive 20 or overcome a SR20 via spellcraft or arcana. And do that X times to "hurt" them enough in a non-combat combat to win the encounter.

Perhaps some knowledge checks would benefit with that.

I really suggest taking a look at all the various buildings that can be created. If you can think of a logical use for the building beyond raw. Such as needing an academy build to build a magical academy. It may vary well exist or have additional non-raw but realistic functions.

Maybe there is an earth tremor and one of the mines collapses trapping some of the Stonescales and Forged inside and you heroes must get them out. Only it Just happens to occur while the shovel is recharging so you cant just "Dig" them out with it.

Maybe a forign country sets up an embasy in haven and the ambassador goes to the market to buy something, but finds out you have fiat currency that says this stone is worth 100 gold and that stone is worth 1 copper. Well they could go back to their kingdom and tell all kinds of stories bout your kingdom that causes them to break off diplomatic ties AND trade routes with you for being dishonest. (because they were a Lawful kingdom and that would be a chaotic act)

Maybe some Giff or Gith show up in force through the Door when all of you are out on maneuvers and only one or two of the council is left in town.

Where does the gold go when we use it to craft magical items? Is it used to purchase components for the magical items, or is it consumed?

I am not sure that's what it means by fiat currency. :o

Fiat currency is based on someone saying that something is worth something it is not.

Gold for magic items.. its basically used for supplies, oils, incense.. and in some cases a pile of gold is exchanged by genie' and jin for the enchantment. ITs both consumed and used for proper supplies.. like a silver stylus and such that gets consumed by the enchanting process in a myrid of different ways.

Now there are some magical item creation feats out there that allow you to make more GP worth of items a day, spend less xp on things, spend less time, all sorts of stuff.

So the gold remains in the economy? That is my principal question, basically.

I am not sure how fiat currency is a chaotic act? If it's defined as such and enforced, I think it's rather lawful. Probably there is no need to go as far as free-floating fiat currency, but fractional reserve banking could easily be implemented.

No. it get used up. 100% used/burned. just fluffed up the description of what happens to the gold when you make something. it us 100% used up. 100% Out of the economy. a gold sink, you cant .. no sorry no.

Fiat means your kingdom would be basing its currency upon a lie. Its not currency based on metal value. therefore it is chaotic, as unlawful as possible.

If you say that the blue rocks are worth 100gold or even 1 copper. WHo is going to be dumb enough to believe that? You will need to use mind control and such to enforce it.

Your Warforged civilians are almost 50 years old.
Your Psiforged troops would have talked to the cilivilans and know the value of a gold. IF fabricator does and he was born here.. then all others of the forged do as well.
Your Stonescales sure know the value of gold and copper for that matter.
Your Council all knows the value of gold.

Who would believe you if you say that someone is worth X? Specially with none of your current citizens/troops give a flip about coin.. They are working for free.

Any others you bring in, next year would be from either the two worlds you know of. and monitary values are standard.

I can get why you would want to do that.. but you would need like a bluff of a 100 or so.. and that's just not possible atm as far as I can see.

The problem with that explanation is the fact that the blue rock could be worth 100Gp. It all depends on the availability and usefulness of the item that is being priced. And so far I do not see us having any way to build a stable economy, due to the fact that we have no idea what resources we have access too. We are kind of in a state of Barter over Coinage, till the door opens again in a years time or we find another civ, one that uses coinage.

Just my view...

I mean, what you do is print notes that allow the holder to trade in the note for an equal value in gold. So this note is by definition equal to its value in gold, because you can trade it in for gold at any time.

Then you require that taxes to the government must be paid in these notes, thus creating a demand for these notes. You'd monitor supply and demand of these notes and only issue enough notes to keep the trade value of the notes (not the government defined value of the notes) at the government-defined value.

Now that these notes have clear value, they are circulating around in the economy. There are more notes than gold that you have in reserve, because not everyone is going in to redeem their notes at the same time.

The only problem that I'm seeing right now is that we are dependent on meeting another civilization and trading goods for gold, without somehow expecting that they are going to want gold for their own goods.

-------

Alternatively, we can convert metals into coinage without a mint by using weights. Like, this is one pound of pure silver, so it's worth X amount equal to the number of silver coins that would ordinarily be equal in weight to one pound.

This way, we do not need to make a mint. Assuming that we have silver and copper mines already, then we should start using those materials only for magical item construction, and then using our other resources for trade.

That's essentially how the American economy works, bills aren't even backed by gold anymore.

And intrinsic value is abstract. Only defined by perception or need. For example, to someone who needs to make a fire to survive the night, wood is more valuable than gold.

Also, gold has no actual value in of itself without an existing economy or culture that values gold. Blue stones, white flowers, teeth, value assigned by people is the only way to aquire actual value.

Another example, Gold and platnium aren't worth as much to us and diamonds, when on a universal scale, diamonds are hundred of trillions of times more common because they are made of carbon. Yet we say a diamond lasts forever, WE say these are beautiful and rare.

Perception defines value.

Not trying to solve anything really, just my two cents on the subject.

Exactly. The only peculiar thing about this system is that gold has an intrinsic value in the manufacture of magical items. What I am basically proposing is that we separate the value of gold as a currency from the value of gold as the raw material for magical item construction, by the construction of these trading certificates ("bills") which are equivalent in our trading system, aside from the use for magical item construction.

Essentially with this plan, we are raking in every real piece of gold through taxation, without directly requiring that people give up their gold. This is because if we taxed gold directly, we'd have to modify rates based on the amount of gold available in the economy (easily gamed by a crafty populace), but if we taxed some sort of free-floating certificate which was related to gold by deposit, then the value of the certificate would fluctuate naturally for us.

The vast majority of the wealth in the settlement is in non-gold related goods, which is not very necessary for our purposes.

Related to that note: does retraining actually require 50 gold pieces or just 50 gold worth of items to trade in to get retrained.

Well actually retraining is daysxlevelx10 if you have someone with the feat to train you. If you don't it is double. Secondly this is interesting but I am going to go against your idea. While it makes sense in the real world it seems a little complicated for a game.

I would agree, but I am also not a fan of being limited by these types of restrictions, so I am trying to find a way around them. Seems a bit artificial.