5e Middle Earth Adventures (Inactive)

Game Master Therenger

GM, does Hobwise acquire a replacement set of pots from Lindir?

Looks like I have some reading to do! I’ll go back to the Rivendell posts and try to catch up.

GM, does Hobwise acquire a replacement set of pots from Lindir?

Yes. Lindir has pots he will give you.

Are they high quality eleven crafted pots?

Are they better than the dwarves ones?

I'm going to assume they are.

They would be simple elven pots. Better than those crafted in Bree or Laketown, but nothing magical or especially noteworthy. Except perhaps the more decorative aspects which elves always tend to add.

Here is the post where the party arrived in Rivendell. I'll start reading here, then try to figure out how Ingold might fit into the company in the present...

Okay, so each separate class you multiclass into grants two proficiencies? Does that mean, you could pick "skills and saves"? So, if a scholar multiclassed into rogue they could pick 4 skill proficiencies?

Okay... so, I'm probably gonna make a poor character if I do it this way, however.. Here are a few general ideas I have for Doderic. Any input would be appreciated..

A. Treasure hunter 2
Scholar 5 (master scholar)

Or.

B. Treasure Hunter 6 (burglar)
Scholar 1

OR

C. Treasure hunter 3 (Agent)
Warden 3(Counsel)
Warrior 1

Ability scores: (after mods, going for the stoor line)
Str: 10
Dex: 16
Con: 15
Int: 14
Wis: 13
Cha: 12

I'm leaning A or B atm.

@Took Imma strongly advise against a.

Ive seen a number of people try to do Master Scholar and they all hate it, get bored, and drop the character. If MS got magic spells that would be one thing, but just having bigger numbers on Riddle checks and doing nothing the rest of the time can make for a unfullfilling play experience.

To me, c seems the juiciest option.

IMHO. YMMV.

Your choice, of course, but we have most everything covered. More healing is always good, as is more muscle. We have a thief, me, but I suppose we could have another.

I don't plan to make him thiefy. He is more of a dextrous showman and entertainer.

I'm thinking some form of B. At least if I stick treasure hunter I can use a different archetype than hobwise. Warden would just be another counselor.

Mayne B, but a dip into warrior as well.

How exactly do proficiency's work with multiclassing again?

Yes, you have the right of it that you pick -any- two in the Proficiencies list. Hence, if you were already something like a thief and dipped in Scholar you could pick any two of the things:

Proficiencies
Armour: Light armour
Weapons: All simple weapons
Tools: Herbalism kit, a choice of artisan’s tools or a pipe
Saving Throws: Intelligence, Wisdom
Skills: Medicine, Lore plus choose one from History, Riddle,
Traditions, Insight, Investigation, Nature, Perception and
Survival.

Taking a dip for a level in another class seems like an expensive way to grab two skill proficiencies, but if that's what you need then that's what you need.

Thorgrim: Can you point me to the 'pick two' rule for proficiencies when multiclassing. I'm not seeing it anywhere and that is certainly different than the PHB or the AiME Loremasters Guide.

Here is where it is in this discussion thread. If you need more details you'll have to ask the guy who posted it. :)

Giles: Why this is in the Loremaster Guide and not the Players Guide, I'll never know, but here's the multiclassing rule for AiME.

"When first taking a level in a new class, a player selects two proficiencies from the new class."

So if you take Warrior you choose two from All Armor, Shields, Simple Weapons, or Martial Weapons, if I'm reading the table correctly. I'm not sure if this also includes the Saving Throw proficiencies or not.

Could I pick a saving throw proficiency? It seems virtues replaced the normal feats?

Haha! That guy. He never knows what he's talking about. ;)

Anyway, I finally found the single line in the single paragraph, that I must have read six times yesterday and totally missed.

This multiclass question seems to come up a lot and Cubicle 7 left things really ambiguous compared to regular 5E rules. The PBH lays out multiclassing with a table showing what proficiencies you gain when multiclassing. AiME has no such table. Yet base 5E in very clear in that you do not gain proficiency in Saving Throws if multiclassing. The Saving Throws from your first class are what you stick with. This makes a certain amount of sense to me because otherwise a multiclass character gain bonus save proficiencies or suddenly becomes less proficient at one save after using for however many levels.

So here is the way I suggest we handle multiclassing going forward:

1. You meet the stat prerequisites for the new class listed in the Loremaster's Guide. (13 is the magic number)

2. You get all the new class abilities and features.

3. You get to select two Weapon, Armor, or Tool proficiencies offered by the new class. OR you can select one skill from the new classes skill list and then one from the Weapon, Armor, or Tool list.

This seems to capture everything and would prevent weird Saving Throw changes or someone gaining lots of extra skill proficiencies by multiclassing. What do you all think? Is this an agreeable way to go?

And Doderic, yes, virtues replace regular feats, but like regular 5E, the starting virtue is only available to humans.

That works well for me. Ingold took the Medicine skill and the Herbalist’s Toolkit upon becoming a Scholar.

Could we at least spend a ASI to gain a +1 and a save proficiency like in base 5e? IIRC you could do this in 5e with a feat.

And scholar states you gain medicine, lore, AND one of your choice in skills.

Would I only gain medicine and lore, or would I only gain one in total?

And sorry its taking so long to finish up, holidays are keeping me busy, and every class that would fit doderic is already in use haha.

All this said, I think..

treasure hunter 4 (burglar)
Warden 3 (counselor or herald)

seems to make the most sense/ is the best fit for the character.

With plans to level warden to at least level 5, and likely continue the rest in treasure hunter.

Okay, slight modification. For Scholar, Wanderer, and Warden you would get the automatically gain the skill(s) listed that you don't choose. You could then use your 'open' choice to choose one additional skill from the choose from list.

I don't think there are actually any 5E feats that make you proficient in another Save. I know the Rogue's Slippery Mind Class Ability at 15th level grants a WIS save proficiency. I assume there may be other class abilities that do something similar, but no feats. For ASI increases, all the rules I find are +2 to one stat, +1 to two stats, or a feat/virtue. This is actually consistent between the PHB and AiME, so I think we should keep it that way.

If anyone can point to something different in official materials, then please do. I'm not nearly familiar with all of the supplemental books as some might be.

Okay, slight modification. For Scholar, Wanderer, and Warden you would get the automatically gain the skill(s) listed that you don't choose. You could then use your 'open' choice to choose one additional skill from the choose from list.

I don't think there are actually any 5E feats that make you proficient in another Save. I know the Rogue's Slippery Mind Class Ability at 15th level grants a WIS save proficiency. I assume there may be other class abilities that do something similar, but no feats. For ASI increases, all the rules I find are +2 to one stat, +1 to two stats, or a feat/virtue. This is actually consistent between the PHB and AiME, so I think we should keep it that way.

If anyone can point to something different in official materials, then please do. I'm not nearly familiar with all of the supplemental books as some might be.

So, Lore is on the HARROWED list (Ingold's background) and is also included on the Scholar "forced skill" list. With the two options from before, Ingold took Medicine and Herbalism Kit. Instead of Lore for the third option, he could just take nothing, or he could take another one of the open sage skills if you think it could be allowed--maybe nature would make sense?

Resilient

choose one ability score. You gain the following benefits:

Increase the chosen ability score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You gain proficiency in saving throws using the chosen ability.

Source: PHB, page 168

Ah...well there you go. And this is why I don't care for feats much. Too many to try and sift through or remember, which I'm getting to old to do. :) At least 5E has kept them under more control than PF.

However, since regular 5E feats aren't part of the AiME rules, I'd open it up to the group. I still don't think simple multiclassing should allow a new save proficiency. That just makes multiclassing more powerful I think.

But if we want to allow a +1 ASI and an added Save per the vanilla Resilient feat then I'm open to it. I guess we could call it a new Open Virtue so anyone can benefit if they want at the level 8 Character Improvement.

What do folks think?

Ingold: I think it would be like any other situation where you gain proficiency in the same skill from two things. From the PHB page 125 "If a character would gain the same proficiency from two different sources, he or she can choose a different proficiency of the same kind (skill or tool) instead." So you can select another skill from the list.

Ingold: I think it would be like any other situation where you gain proficiency in the same skill from two things. From the PHB page 125 "If a character would gain the same proficiency from two different sources, he or she can choose a different proficiency of the same kind (skill or tool) instead." So you can select another skill from the list.

Perfect. Updated to add Nature (from the Scholar list of skills) in place of the Lore skill that would have been duplicated. Thanks. Oh, and it may be obvious, but I decided to go with a human instead of a dwarf, and I have introduced myself to at least one party member. I am excited to get going with this!

Wulfgith would you be interested in us having met before as well?

Not at all Doderic!

Not at all Doderic!

Right, not interested at all. Got it.:D

Haha! That guy. He never knows what he's talking about. ;)

Oh yeah. By now I just try to ignore most of whatever that guys says. ^_^

3. You get to select two Weapon, Armor, or Tool proficiencies offered by the new class. OR you can select one skill from the new classes skill list and then one from the Weapon, Armor, or Tool list.

This seems to capture everything and would prevent weird Saving Throw changes or someone gaining lots of extra skill proficiencies by multiclassing. What do you all think? Is this an agreeable way to go?

This seems to be getting into what 5E is getting out of, that is, over-thinking something and making a rule about a rule to avoid...something.

As much of a powergamer as I like to pretend to be, I can't see the game-breakingness of allowing someone to get another skill proficiency by multiclassing. Considering what you are giving up, that is, you are burning a -high- level in your current class, in order to just get another +2 (because you're already good at what you're already good at) in some skill (and it's probably a skill you don't care much about since you've made it this far and couldn't be bothered to get proficiency in it at first level).

If a thief that already has Stealth and Sleight Of Hand wants to NOT take a level in thief (and delay access to high-level talents) just to get proficiency in Riddle and Nature with a level of Treasure Hunter, that seems like the kind of anti- MinMax role playing that one might want to encourage.

(I mean, in 5E you can make a half-elf bard and get, like, 5 skill proficiencies, but I've never heard -that- called OP.)

However, since regular 5E feats aren't part of the AiME rules, I'd open it up to the group. I still don't think simple multiclassing should allow a new save proficiency. That just makes multiclassing more powerful I think.

But if we want to allow a +1 ASI and an added Save per the vanilla Resilient feat then I'm open to it. I guess we could call it a new Open Virtue so anyone can benefit if they want at the level 8 Character Improvement.

What do folks think?

Imma use the same question: What are you giving up to give that? And does that therefore make it worth it?

At level, assuming you take +2 to a stat, mostly that will give you +1 to hit AND to damage in combat. And if you're a Dex build, +1 to AC. That's a lot to bring to the party. And, thusly, a lot to give up.

With the Resilient feat, you're getting, what? Another +2 or +3 to a save.(There's no telling that it'll be a save in a stat you've maxed, since you probably already have proficiency in that). And saves are rolled much less than combat Attacks.

I don't think I've ever seen a build where someone said "yeah, this would really be teh RoZZorZ if I could just get a slightly better save."

Meh. That, and I've seen feats that are much better than Resilient. (Heavy Armor Master, available at first level, comes to mind). So it seems like if that's the candy you want to take when it comes time to take candy, again, it seems fine.

IMHO. YMMV.

Wulfgith daughter of Wulf wrote:

Not at all Doderic!

Right, not interested at all. Got it.:D

Psh! You know what I meant! XD

Ay, I don't see Doderic being a combative powerhouse. I want him to be adequate, as otherwise he would be a burden. But I see him as someone who focuses more on.. non-combat solutions and situations. He is a great storyteller, a cunning and quick illusionist, an entertainer, and a bringer of laughter, and joy, what he believes to be one of the most powerful tools against the shadow. As such instead of training with his sword, he practiced shows, learned about different peoples traditions (and in so doing, what to avoid doing with his shows) and the like.

I should be finished with him in a day or two, depending on how busy the season stays. I have decided that he will either start out as

A.
Treasure hunter 4
Warden 3

or

B.
Treasure hunter 6
Warden 1

Alright, just so it is consistent from here on out, because it seems to come up often. Multiclassing PC's get any 'base' skills (those not part of a 'choose from' list, plus they can choose any two proficiencies from weapons, armor, tools, saves, and the 'choose from' list for the new class. If one of the base skills is a duplicate of an existing proficiency from another source, then another skill can be selected.

As for character improvements. Those will simply stay as listed in the AiME players guide. +2 to a stat, +1 to two stats, or a cultural or open virtue.

Very generous of you, DM. That gives Ingold a chance to take proficiency in Wisdom saves, which dovetails well with his backstory and virtue (Sterner than Steel).

Doderic is almost done. I'll hopefully have a post up tonight sometime.

I find it odd all the saves involving the shadow/corruption are wisdom, and not a mixture of wisdom and charisma (charisma being a sort of force of personalty) I miss having the huge amount of "hope" from TOR system just for being a hobbit :P haha.

What would be a better expertise? Riddle, Performance, or acrobatics?

Looking for opinions.

I've never seen a need for Performance.

Acrobatics would benefit you personally, but the party is pretty light on Riddle, and that does come in to play.

Riddle or Performance rounds out the party better.

Alright, expertise skills are stealth, riddle, Tradition and Lore.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays everyone. I'm taking a break today to be with immediate family, but will be back online tomorrow.

Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays : )

Merry Christmas, everyone!

Still not clear here. I'm hoping to catch up in the new year.

God Bless us, everyone!

@GM, I dunno if this would apply to the place we are going.

Treasure Lore:
When you first pick this archetype at 3rd level, you hear many tales about strongholds or ruins where great treasures may lay. Whenever you are told of a particular location or chance across it, you may ask the Loremaster for three pieces of information regarding the locale. This
information is usually a mixture of particular treasures
and obstacles. Information gleaned may be taken as generally true,
although details may be fuzzy and key bits omitted.

I'mma give Doderic longer to see if he wants to jump into this little talk or not!

Ingold is here, patiently waiting for the advance team's signal.

good news is I should be getting back to regular posting after today! sorry for the disappearance, work and family obligations were quite time consuming this year over the holidays.

I've been thinking about Hobwise's comments on 5E and the lack of rules for non-lethal types of damage. I agree it is very odd there aren't any clear rules for simply knocking someone out in certain situations. Obviously, not something that can happen easily in regular combat. But I've always thought it should be a bit easier to take a guard by surprise and knock him out rather than simply kill him. After all it happens all the time in movies/books. I think this has additional implications given Middle Earth's Shadow Points and penalties for simply killing someone.

Maybe a general set of rules can be if you have managed to get within a single move of the victim without them having a successful Perception check to spot, hear, smell, etc. Then you can conduct a non-lethal attack. Still must beat their AC to hit. Then roll damage. If you do more that the victims CON in damage then they must make a CON save DC12 or fall unconscious. If damage is twice CON, then the save is DC20. If over twice CON then no save. This at least makes it possible to knock someone out.

Just an idea and some random thoughts.

This seems fine to me.