Uncommon races and oriental classes


Pathfinder Playtest


I wish to know if I will be possible to use the core book rules to build my half Mantis half orc samurai/paladin

Thanks

Liberty's Edge

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No, you will not.

You could build a Half Orc Paladin and regard the rest as flavor, though. There may even be katana stats.


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Well in a campaign setting I've played once there was a samurai class - which was basically just a fighter with a different lvl 1 feat

besides that every warrior with adequate status could be considered a samurai - so if your half orc is on the human side a tien/asian noble he can still be a samurai regardless which class he actually has (works better with martial ones though)

but afaik core will be limited to core races (the classics + goblin)
and the core classes (classics + alchemist)

there will be more races in the bestiary i guess but no ruleset to build them as pc so you would have to homebrew it


They are planning on doing a larger Bestiary for the playtest. This could include the basics for a couple more races with limited options.


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I figure they have to save some stuff for later books, so I'm fine waiting to play a Changeling Occultist, or a Kitsune Bloodrager, or a Cecaelia Kineticist.

I think the last two PF1 APs are going to be pretty important (and I hear War for the Crown is great), so it's not like there won't be plenty of PF1 to play in the meantime before each of our favorite things get printed.


As of this moment it looks like the Samurai and Cavalier will be one of the harder classes to port over. I'm not sure how much of a focus mounted combat will have in the Playtest yet. If there's some decent ways to aquire a proper mount through general feats, I could see w fighter being used for either, but it means losing challenge and what not. I'm pretty confident we won't get the level to damage abilities like Smite or Challenge this time.


Captain Morgan wrote:
As of this moment it looks like the Samurai and Cavalier will be one of the harder classes to port over. I'm not sure how much of a focus mounted combat will have in the Playtest yet. If there's some decent ways to aquire a proper mount through general feats, I could see w fighter being used for either, but it means losing challenge and what not. I'm pretty confident we won't get the level to damage abilities like Smite or Challenge this time.

I hope they at least keep the parts of the classes that weren't mounted-focused. Maybe not as its own class, but perhaps as an archetype, or some sub-variant of fighter.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gregg Reece wrote:
They are planning on doing a larger Bestiary for the playtest. This could include the basics for a couple more races with limited options.

I don't think they are. I think the bigger bestiary is for second edition itself, not the playtest.


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Ampersandrew wrote:
Gregg Reece wrote:
They are planning on doing a larger Bestiary for the playtest. This could include the basics for a couple more races with limited options.
I don't think they are. I think the bigger bestiary is for second edition itself, not the playtest.

Nah, they are gonna give us a big free pdf bestiary for the playtest. Kinda need it to run adventures.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I think they said the big free pdf was basically pure stat blocks, I wouldn't expect it to have playable pc race details (need ancestry feats, etc). They have said the actual hardback monster book next year would have playable pc races.

Ie the pdf of monsters for the playtest is not a pre-release version of the big book of monsters. (While the Playtest CRB and the 2e CRB are probably very similar, the monster products are not)


NielsenE wrote:
Ie the pdf of monsters for the playtest is not a pre-release version of the big book of monsters. (While the Playtest CRB and the 2e CRB are probably very similar, the monster products are not)

We'll find out sometime in early August... or sooner if one of the devs pop in.


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Multiclassing is there, so you should be able to make a paladin/something - but for now there are no samurai, so you'll have to try and be inventive with the fighter class, depending on what kind of archetype and flavor your samurai has - since every weapon and armor gives different and interesting benefits and you can shape your style of fighting on different combos, moves and feats, I think you'll like it, but it might still feel like a bad fit for you.

As for half Mantis, as the others have said the playtest rules only give you humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, goblins, half-elves and half-orcs. So if you pick half-orc and choose the right race feats and background you should be able to approximate something similar to your half Mantis, I think, and possibly convince your GM to give you that official heritage if they don't think it's too weird - maybe keep it as a minor influence if you need to persuade a new GM who interprets the canon very strictly.

If everything fails and the final result isn't as samurai and as half Mantis as you'd like, I suggest trying a completely new character - there will be a lot of variety for a playtest, and you should be able with some very interesting combinations.

I only wanted to add a last thing - it's better not to use the word "oriental" anymore, it's usually considered a pejorative, othering, demeaning, and rather unfounded in reality - I know you didn't mean to offend anyone, but East Asian is much better for a samurai, and better safe than sorry - wouldn't want other players to feel uncomfortable for a mere misunderstanding... sorry, that's all!


don't say Nekomimi. say Catgirl. Catgirls are essentially human women with cosmetic cat ears.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Roswynn wrote:
I only wanted to add a last thing - it's better not to use the word "oriental" anymore, it's usually considered a pejorative, othering, demeaning, and rather unfounded in reality - I know you didn't mean to offend anyone, but East Asian is much better for a samurai, and better safe than sorry - wouldn't want other players to feel uncomfortable for a mere misunderstanding... sorry, that's all!

Since we're talking about East-Asian inspired elements in a game written by Americans, "oriental" sounds like it's the correct word here. I agree that people do take it as a pejorative even when it's technically the correct term, so why ruffle feathers needlessly?


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AnimatedPaper wrote:
Since we're talking about East-Asian inspired elements in a game written by Americans, "oriental" sounds like it's the correct word here. I agree that people do take it as a pejorative even when it's technically the correct term, so why ruffle feathers needlessly?

It's not the technically correct term. The correct term for samurai is Japanese, or even just East-Asian. Oriental is a word that has never meant anything but the way westerners imagined and warped other cultures (which later they proceeded to conquer). Originally it referred only to the Middle East and North Africa (different cultures and ethnicities), then it became India and part of China (again different cultures) and in the 20th century it was East Asia, Southeast Asia, the eastern part of Central Asia... but North Africa too, somehow.

The words we use matter. Oriental is derogatory, doesn't describe ethnic origin, background or even "race" - to the contrary it generalizes many discreet cultures and ethnicities into a big mess we can exoticize and oversimplify to our heart's content. It's racist and Asian American people have fought long and hard to discourage its use.

Wanting to play a samurai isn't the same as being racist. Let's just use the right words, folks.


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Ilina Aniri wrote:
don't say Nekomimi. say Catgirl. Catgirls are essentially human women with cosmetic cat ears.

Exactly like nekomimi. I don't see why the two terms can't be interchangeable.


I'm not really into specifically Asian/Oriental classes any more, for a variety of reasons, but I do not mind Archetypes representing certain things.


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Roswynn wrote:
I only wanted to add a last thing - it's better not to use the word "oriental" anymore, it's usually considered a pejorative, othering, demeaning, and rather unfounded in reality - I know you didn't mean to offend anyone, but East Asian is much better for a samurai, and better safe than sorry - wouldn't want other players to feel uncomfortable for a mere misunderstanding... sorry, that's all!

This seems to be more of an American thing, quite a few people, at last here in the UK, from the Far East (of far Eastern ethnicity) prefer the term Oriental (I have worked with quite a few in the NHS), so as not to be confused with those from India and Pakistan.


Weather Report wrote:
This seems to be more of an American thing, quite a few people, at last here in the UK, from the Far East (of far Eastern ethnicity) prefer the term Oriental (I have worked with quite a few in the NHS), so as not to be confused with those from India and Pakistan.

I agree, it totally is more of a US thing, I know you're all generally okay with Oriental across the pond. I'm totally fine with using Oriental in the UK since the people it refers to usually like it that way (or at least don't feel insulted by it - I've never been in the UK so I don't have any direct knowledge).

I just wanted to point out that it's often the case that Oriental isn't considered very polite anymore, in general - it may be only in the US but hell, do you know how many PF players are from the US? Like, a lot! And some are East Asian, I'm quite sure. So I was just giving a little well-meaning advice in the interest of not alienating those players. I can be pedantic, I know, but it's better to be cautious with some terms - we want to be welcoming to everyone equally, no matter their ethnic background, right?


Roswynn wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:
Since we're talking about East-Asian inspired elements in a game written by Americans, "oriental" sounds like it's the correct word here. I agree that people do take it as a pejorative even when it's technically the correct term, so why ruffle feathers needlessly?

It's not the technically correct term. The correct term for samurai is Japanese, or even just East-Asian. Oriental is a word that has never meant anything but the way westerners imagined and warped other cultures (which later they proceeded to conquer). Originally it referred only to the Middle East and North Africa (different cultures and ethnicities), then it became India and part of China (again different cultures) and in the 20th century it was East Asia, Southeast Asia, the eastern part of Central Asia... but North Africa too, somehow.

The words we use matter. Oriental is derogatory, doesn't describe ethnic origin, background or even "race" - to the contrary it generalizes many discreet cultures and ethnicities into a big mess we can exoticize and oversimplify to our heart's content. It's racist and Asian American people have fought long and hard to discourage its use.

Wanting to play a samurai isn't the same as being racist. Let's just use the right words, folks.

You do realise that Oriental just means Eastern right? As in the place where the sun rises, - oritur in Latin. It never referred to North Africa, nor did it originally refer to the Middle East. Originally, it meant the eastern half of the Roman Empire - basically anything east of Italy.

I can't see how it's derogatory to group people by the direction they are in. Grouping people in this way is in no way saying that they're the same culture, much in the same way that saying that Germans, Italians and Americans are all part of the Western World (or Occident) isn't oversimplifying their culture. The word just doesn't have anything to do with culture, but with regions of the world.

Incidentally, do you think it's okay to describe people from Syria, Jordan, Israel and Palestine as Levantine (from the French lever - to rise), or the Turks as Anatolian (from Greek ανατέλλω - to rise)?


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Roswynn wrote:
Ilina Aniri wrote:
don't say Nekomimi. say Catgirl. Catgirls are essentially human women with cosmetic cat ears.
Exactly like nekomimi. I don't see why the two terms can't be interchangeable.

Nekomimi is the Japanese word for the concept. and the terms are interchangeable, but not every catgirl is Japanese. some might prefer to call themselves by a culturally appropriate name or thier real name. Y'shtola is a catgirl or nekomimi. but she isn't east asian, she grew up in the western hemisphere in Eorzea rather than Doma. Y'shtola isn't a western Nekomimi. Y'shtola is Y'shtola. a highly trained healer and a follower of the scions of the 7th dawn but also warmhearted and patient as most final fantasy white mages tend to be.

be rude to call an individual cat eared person a beastfolk or a catfolk.


NimbleW wrote:

You do realise that Oriental just means Eastern right? As in the place where the sun rises, - oritur in Latin. It never referred to North Africa, nor did it originally refer to the Middle East. Originally, it meant the eastern half of the Roman Empire - basically anything east of Italy.

I can't see how it's derogatory to group people by the direction they are in. Grouping people in this way is in no way saying that they're the same culture, much in the same way that saying that Germans, Italians and Americans are all part of the Western World (or Occident) isn't oversimplifying their culture. The word just doesn't have anything to do with culture, but with regions of the world.

Incidentally, do you think it's okay to describe people from Syria, Jordan, Israel and Palestine as Levantine (from the French lever - to rise), or the Turks as Anatolian (from Greek ανατέλλω - to rise)?

Look dude, you don't have to convince me, it's the East Asian people in the US who protested against being called Oriental - you call them however you want if that's such a high priority to you!

Oh, and yes, Oriental did refer to North Africa. In Roman times it included those countries, and later on too, albeit intermittently. Even now some people use it to include North Africa.

Personally? I think Levantine is alright. But it doesn't matter what I think, it matters what Syrians, Jordanians, Israeli and Palestinian think. It seems it's alright, because the Levant is really a peculiar region with its own archeology, cooking, customs, history and so on, shared by all of them.

Of course if people of that area start protesting that they don't wanna be called Levantine, I'd probably drop the subject, y'know?


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NimbleW wrote:
I can't see how it's derogatory to group people by the direction they are in.

If the people to whom it is applied think it's derogatory, it doesn't matter at all whether or not you understand. Their opinion about how they are describe is what matters.

It's not up to you to approve their decision.

If someone asks you not to use a specific term when referring to their culture, race, gender, or anything else, the polite response is "Sorry, I didn't realize that was offensive. I won't use it again in the future."

It's horribly tone deaf to argue with them that they're wrong to be offended.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
Roswynn wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
This seems to be more of an American thing, quite a few people, at last here in the UK, from the Far East (of far Eastern ethnicity) prefer the term Oriental (I have worked with quite a few in the NHS), so as not to be confused with those from India and Pakistan.

I agree, it totally is more of a US thing, I know you're all generally okay with Oriental across the pond. I'm totally fine with using Oriental in the UK since the people it refers to usually like it that way (or at least don't feel insulted by it - I've never been in the UK so I don't have any direct knowledge).

I just wanted to point out that it's often the case that Oriental isn't considered very polite anymore, in general - it may be only in the US but hell, do you know how many PF players are from the US? Like, a lot! And some are East Asian, I'm quite sure. So I was just giving a little well-meaning advice in the interest of not alienating those players. I can be pedantic, I know, but it's better to be cautious with some terms - we want to be welcoming to everyone equally, no matter their ethnic background, right?

I think it's only in the US. My Japanese Brother in Law actually is occasionally deeply offended when people say Oriental is offensive or derogatory. He prefers the word oriental to Asian.

For him, he'd prefer to be called Oriental or Japanese. The term Asian is far too broad for him (probably because under the definition in Europe, I'm also Asian, with descent from SW Asia rather than East Asia).

He is a D&D player and loves Oriental Adventures. He actually hates it when someone tries to say it's derogatory, and would hate it if it was called Asian Adventures or Eastern Adventures instead.

He is also, very biased towards Japanese and would probably be very pleased with a Japanese or Nippon Adventures instead of Oriental Adventures.


GreyWolfLord wrote:
Roswynn wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
This seems to be more of an American thing, quite a few people, at last here in the UK, from the Far East (of far Eastern ethnicity) prefer the term Oriental (I have worked with quite a few in the NHS), so as not to be confused with those from India and Pakistan.

I agree, it totally is more of a US thing, I know you're all generally okay with Oriental across the pond. I'm totally fine with using Oriental in the UK since the people it refers to usually like it that way (or at least don't feel insulted by it - I've never been in the UK so I don't have any direct knowledge).

I just wanted to point out that it's often the case that Oriental isn't considered very polite anymore, in general - it may be only in the US but hell, do you know how many PF players are from the US? Like, a lot! And some are East Asian, I'm quite sure. So I was just giving a little well-meaning advice in the interest of not alienating those players. I can be pedantic, I know, but it's better to be cautious with some terms - we want to be welcoming to everyone equally, no matter their ethnic background, right?

I think it's only in the US. My Japanese Brother in Law actually is occasionally deeply offended when people say Oriental is offensive or derogatory. He prefers the word oriental to Asian.

For him, he'd prefer to be called Oriental or Japanese. The term Asian is far too broad for him (probably because under the definition in Europe, I'm also Asian, with descent from SW Asia rather than East Asia).

He is a D&D player and loves Oriental Adventures. He actually hates it when someone tries to say it's derogatory, and would hate it if it was called Asian Adventures or Eastern Adventures instead.

He is also, very biased towards Japanese and would probably be very pleased with a Japanese or Nippon Adventures instead of Oriental Adventures.

Hah! It takes all kinds. Mmm, let's drop the matter then, maybe it's better ;)


CrystalSeas wrote:
NimbleW wrote:
I can't see how it's derogatory to group people by the direction they are in.

If the people to whom it is applied think it's derogatory, it doesn't matter at all whether or not you understand. Their opinion about how they are describe is what matters.

It's not up to you to approve their decision.

If someone asks you not to use a specific term when referring to their culture, race, gender, or anything else, the polite response is "Sorry, I didn't realize that was offensive. I won't use it again in the future."

It's horribly tone deaf to argue with them that they're wrong to be offended.

So is anyone complaining about it actually from one of these groups. If so it isn't up to any one else to declare that decision for them either. Rosswyn hasn't said they are of an ethnicity that would find this tone death.

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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Folks, I'm going to lock this up and if you want to retry this conversation, start a new thread without using terminology that is problematic:
Sports Talk Show Host Mike Francesa Doesn’t Get Why ‘Oriental’ Is Offensive
'Oriental': Rugs, Not People
Reality star Dorothy Wang: Don't call me oriental
The Words 'Oriental' and 'Negro' Can No Longer Be Used in US Federal Laws
I feel that it is clear that enough people do find this word offensive or problematic that we not accommodate use of this word on paizo.com.

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