why i cant harm person in time stop spell ?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


this is just illogical. if i punch someone with my 20 strengh, i cantt harm him no matter what.

while i can still get harmed by fire and cold.


It's because the inability to harm everyone else is the only thing that keeps it from being an instant win button.

Otherwise wizard would just cast whatever their most damaging effects were.

Imagine being struck by 10 enervation spells during the 5 round (max amount) time stop (through using standard action and quickened spells).

10 no save spells for 10d4 negative levels. The target is either immune or dead (on average).


If you want an in universe reason, time's pretty much stopped for them, so you can't change them. If you punched them, they'd be as hard as a statue.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

There's two approaches to this. One is balance, the other is realism.

Balance-wise, time stop is really powerful already. If you could just release a dozen fireballs at the same time and kill everyone, it would be even more absurd. Or if a fighter (through a scroll) got to unleash up to 5 full-attacks in the same round on one opponent.

From a realism standpoint, time stop makes everything basically stationary. You're moving so fast compared to them, you can take up to 30 seconds' worth of actions before they can so much as blink. If you try to punch them, it's like punching a stone wall, only harder. The atoms that make up their face simply won't move, no matter what you do. It's like that really old What if? about the speed-of-light baseball. Things wouldn't crack, stuff wouldn't move, and so on.

As for why you still take energy damage, that's part of the spell's safeguards, ironically. To avoid ending up like the above baseball, the spell automatically makes any inanimate objects you are in contact with likewise speed up, allowing for you to move, open doors, breathe, see, and, as a byproduct, be heated up by your surroundings to the point of being injured. It's a small price to pay to avoid becoming a nuclear bomb.

Slight side note, though. Why do you have a level 17+ wizard with 20 strength?

Liberty's Edge

Dαedαlus wrote:
Slight side note, though. Why do you have a level 17+ wizard with 20 strength?

Probably not the answer the original poster would offer, but imagine Mythic Time Stop being used. Maybe your buddies have a high strength.


i have big strength for making a wizard melee build. (for fun)


You kinda of can anyway ...

place a prismatic wall on them as soon as time starts up again they're like fooked
set a load of delayed blast fireballs
set a load of explosive runes
Summon some dudes with readied action to attack as the spell ends
set a pit under them
put some clouds on them
I'm sure there are loads more ways

Basically you can't kill them in time stop, but you can make it so they die as they leave it.

I think the classic one was to boost your caster level to 24 on conjuration so that you can control Solar's as you Gate them in

T1) Gate in a Solar
T2) Gate in a Solar, your Solar gates in a Solar
T3) Gate in a Solar, your Solar gates in a Solar x2

I would stop there as anymore and the number of Solar's under your control is less than the number of independent Solar's.

However if you wanna go max cheese (hey maybe what you're fighting the Solars really want dead too) then you keep going

T4) Gate in a Solar, your Solar gates in a Solar x3
T5) ready actions to kill the thing thats stuck in time stop, your 10 Solars can probably kill it.

You also probably have a stronger angel host that Ragathiel is marauding around the outer planes with.

I mean that's entirely hypothetical (and very expensive) way of killing something so that its dead. But I think it illustrates the point, you can kill s%~! with time stop.


Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

You kinda of can anyway ...

place a prismatic wall on them as soon as time starts up again they're like fooked
set a load of delayed blast fireballs
set a load of explosive runes
Summon some dudes with readied action to attack as the spell ends
set a pit under them
put some clouds on them
I'm sure there are loads more ways

Basically you can't kill them in time stop, but you can make it so they die as they leave it.

I think the classic one was to boost your caster level to 24 on conjuration so that you can control Solar's as you Gate them in

T1) Gate in a Solar
T2) Gate in a Solar, your Solar gates in a Solar
T3) Gate in a Solar, your Solar gates in a Solar x2

I would stop there as anymore and the number of Solar's under your control is less than the number of independent Solar's.

However if you wanna go max cheese (hey maybe what you're fighting the Solars really want dead too) then you keep going

T4) Gate in a Solar, your Solar gates in a Solar x3
T5) ready actions to kill the thing thats stuck in time stop, your 10 Solars can probably kill it.

You also probably have a stronger angel host that Ragathiel is marauding around the outer planes with.

I mean that's entirely hypothetical (and very expensive) way of killing something so that its dead. But I think it illustrates the point, you can kill s+** with time stop.

Can't use Gate, at least not for summoning. Gate as a Calling spell targets a creature thus can't be used in Time Stop, have to settle for Summon Monster IX


You're not wrong.

Best bet would probably be Summon Monster IX with augment summon and superior summoning summoning 1D3 Elder Earth Elementals, for on average 3 Elder Earth Elementals

so over the 4 rounds you get 12 Elder Earth Elementals with an attack sequence of 2 slams +28 (2d10+14/19–20).

No where near as punchie as a host of Solar, but still probably gonna kill most things.

EDIT: actually applying a quickened haste + mass bull's strength to them is definitely worth for 3 slams +31 (2d10+16/19–20).

Most stuff dies to that me thinks.


...because you stopped time? How damaging a punch is is derived from the force, the surface area of the contact, and the time of contact. A time of 0 means that absolutely no damage is caused. Same as a surface area of 0 (usually known as a "miss") or a force of 0.


Time stop doesn't actually stop time, it actually speeds you up .... a lot

its like haste on roids.


Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

Time stop doesn't actually stop time, it actually speeds you up .... a lot

its like haste on roids.

I know that's what the fluff says but that clearly disagrees with what it actually does. Haste on steroids would totally let you punch a dude into chunky salsa (pretty easily too), would make you immune to fire (probably not acid though), and would probably cause a windstorm in your wake.

My explanation, removing yourself from time (stopping time) would explain why everything else is invulnerable and why you don't generate a windstorm when it ends. Neither explains why you're still vulnerable to fire though. That one's just weird.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Anyone here that's ever played the Baldur's Gate video games knows how deadly time stop with improved alacrity are. Though I never got that high in pen and paper play (with AD&D), I can only imagine it worked at least similarly. Basically, dispel everyone's protections, lower their resistances, then unload as many horrid wiltings and other high damage spells as possible. In a pen and paper game, the accounting would be a nightmare, GMs would be better off declaring it over once you announced your plan.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

If I had to bs an explanation? Use nice sounding pseudo science appropriate for a fantasy world? This involves time and observation.

Every act that you perform happens outside of time. Time, mind you, is a measure of how events relate to eachother- so this is basically saying 'why can't I punch from outside of physical space?' (you are in a sub dimension basically).

Of course, at the end o the spell, you are brought into time. you also drag along area affecting, long duration effects with you. But that disintergrating ray doesn't happen, since it happened purely from outside of time. The world doesn't remember it happening.

You are not actually 'in the world', if we are to compare it to that subdimension thing before- you are just looking at what basically amounts of a hologram of the world, a reflection from the inside that is shining to the outside (where you are; think of it like seeing a person's shadow from a shadow realm- you can't truly touch it, you just see it).

Of course, objects can be affected. It is a schrodinger's box- the event only happens if it is observed. The object cannot observe itself, so it relies on you to observe it- so you can affect it and give it 'time' from your perspective. The same for elemental damage- it continues because you observe it.

But creatures? They observe themselves- they observe themselves from their own perspective. Time is a construct for the benefit of finite creatures- allowing them to make sense of events by putting them in order. If an event occurs, it must be observed in some way (even if it is not conscious of it- such as the nerves screaming out for a split second before the creature is blown away by a fireball, long before the brain can understand what happened). If an event is not observed, it is not accepted, and it does not affect the creature. It is only after you start back time, and drag the spell effect with you, that it is observed.

This extends to objects in a creature's possessions. The creature is observing the thing in its hand in a very definite manner, so it is fixed in time.

Basically? Being aware enough to be a 'creature' means you auto save against timey-wimey-wibbly-wobbly stuff. A temporal will save that you always make.


Also, its balanced by the fact that the caster has no idea how long they have before time starts again.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Blindmage wrote:
Also, its balanced by the fact that the caster has no idea how long they have before time starts again.

Don't make things up, you will confuse people.

Silver Crusade

There's a classic 2e adventure

this one:
Vecna Lives!
which features a prologue in which the players play a group of famous archmages. During this prologue the PCs encounter a BBEG who opens the encounter using an artifact to trigger Time Stop. In the duration of the Time Stop the BBEG murders all of the PCs - no saves, nothing they can do to stop it. (This was allowed under the rules for that edition/scenario).

The gameplay then shifts to the players' regular characters (or pregens who are the henchmen of the archmages) who must investigate the disappearance of the famous mages.

This amply illustrates why in 3.5e and Pathfinder you can't do damage to anyone during a Time Stop.


NoTongue wrote:
Blindmage wrote:
Also, its balanced by the fact that the caster has no idea how long they have before time starts again.
Don't make things up, you will confuse people.

He has a bit of a point. It's 1d4+1 rounds of "apparent" time. So that's 2 to 5 rounds if I'm understanding it right. And the Wizard doesn't know what they will roll.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
MerlinCross wrote:
NoTongue wrote:
Blindmage wrote:
Also, its balanced by the fact that the caster has no idea how long they have before time starts again.
Don't make things up, you will confuse people.
He has a bit of a point. It's 1d4+1 rounds of "apparent" time. So that's 2 to 5 rounds if I'm understanding it right. And the Wizard doesn't know what they will roll.

But they do know what they did roll.


Rysky wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
NoTongue wrote:
Blindmage wrote:
Also, its balanced by the fact that the caster has no idea how long they have before time starts again.
Don't make things up, you will confuse people.
He has a bit of a point. It's 1d4+1 rounds of "apparent" time. So that's 2 to 5 rounds if I'm understanding it right. And the Wizard doesn't know what they will roll.
But they do know what they did roll.

Which is weird, because I distinctly reading that the caster didn't know how long it was going to last.... and now I'm going crazy wondering if I just imagined that.

Silver Crusade

Dαedαlus wrote:
Rysky wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
NoTongue wrote:
Blindmage wrote:
Also, its balanced by the fact that the caster has no idea how long they have before time starts again.
Don't make things up, you will confuse people.
He has a bit of a point. It's 1d4+1 rounds of "apparent" time. So that's 2 to 5 rounds if I'm understanding it right. And the Wizard doesn't know what they will roll.
But they do know what they did roll.
Which is weird, because I distinctly reading that the caster didn't know how long it was going to last.... and now I'm going crazy wondering if I just imagined that.

I'm not gonna say you did imagine it, but if it was written down somewhere... how would that even work?

The GM roll the dice? Or an instance of keeping player and character knowledge separate... somehow...


Dαedαlus wrote:
Rysky wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
NoTongue wrote:
Blindmage wrote:
Also, its balanced by the fact that the caster has no idea how long they have before time starts again.
Don't make things up, you will confuse people.
He has a bit of a point. It's 1d4+1 rounds of "apparent" time. So that's 2 to 5 rounds if I'm understanding it right. And the Wizard doesn't know what they will roll.
But they do know what they did roll.
Which is weird, because I distinctly reading that the caster didn't know how long it was going to last.... and now I'm going crazy wondering if I just imagined that.

GM Hidden Rolls for things like this were a common convention in AD&D and Second Edition. When WOTC modified playstyle to a more transactional "Magic, the Gathering" format, hidden rolls and player level uncertainty were not encouraged. As the game has become much more tabletop wargame oriented, GM hidden rolls are actively pushed back on by many here.

^-^
"You aren't so much wrong as you are out of touch with the current paradigms."


It's in the PRD magic section.

Quote:
Timed Durations: Many durations are measured in rounds, minutes, hours, or other increments. When the time is up, the magic goes away and the spell ends. If a spell's duration is variable, the duration is rolled secretly so the caster doesn't know how long the spell will last.

The GM rolls, when it expires he proceeds with the next initiative order in the original round.


Rysky wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
NoTongue wrote:
Blindmage wrote:
Also, its balanced by the fact that the caster has no idea how long they have before time starts again.
Don't make things up, you will confuse people.
He has a bit of a point. It's 1d4+1 rounds of "apparent" time. So that's 2 to 5 rounds if I'm understanding it right. And the Wizard doesn't know what they will roll.
But they do know what they did roll.

Unless the DM rolled it behind his screen.


Rule Mule wrote:

It's in the PRD magic section.

Quote:
Timed Durations: Many durations are measured in rounds, minutes, hours, or other increments. When the time is up, the magic goes away and the spell ends. If a spell's duration is variable, the duration is rolled secretly so the caster doesn't know how long the spell will last.
The GM rolls, when it expires he proceeds with the next initiative order in the original round.

Thank you for finding that!


MerlinCross wrote:
NoTongue wrote:
Blindmage wrote:
Also, its balanced by the fact that the caster has no idea how long they have before time starts again.
Don't make things up, you will confuse people.
He has a bit of a point. It's 1d4+1 rounds of "apparent" time. So that's 2 to 5 rounds if I'm understanding it right. And the Wizard doesn't know what they will roll.

*she


Rule Mule wrote:

It's in the PRD magic section.

Quote:
Timed Durations: Many durations are measured in rounds, minutes, hours, or other increments. When the time is up, the magic goes away and the spell ends. If a spell's duration is variable, the duration is rolled secretly so the caster doesn't know how long the spell will last.
The GM rolls, when it expires he proceeds with the next initiative order in the original round.

Thanks! I knew I wasn't crazy!

Well, in regards to this, anyway.


Yeah....you totally don't know how long your Time Stop will last when you cast it.

Just wanted to back up Blindmage's statement, thankfully someone already found the line in the PRD.

Silver Crusade

Rule Mule wrote:

It's in the PRD magic section.

Quote:
Timed Durations: Many durations are measured in rounds, minutes, hours, or other increments. When the time is up, the magic goes away and the spell ends. If a spell's duration is variable, the duration is rolled secretly so the caster doesn't know how long the spell will last.
The GM rolls, when it expires he proceeds with the next initiative order in the original round.

Oh wow...


QuidEst wrote:
If you want an in universe reason, time's pretty much stopped for them, so you can't change them. If you punched them, they'd be as hard as a statue.

This. You can only influence matter that is not stopped in time. To influence anything stopped takes infinite force.

If you want an insta-kill while in time stop hang a necklace of fireballs on someone then cast a delayed blast fireball, leaving it sitting on the necklace.


Loren Pechtel wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
If you want an in universe reason, time's pretty much stopped for them, so you can't change them. If you punched them, they'd be as hard as a statue.

This. You can only influence matter that is not stopped in time. To influence anything stopped takes infinite force.

If you want an insta-kill while in time stop hang a necklace of fireballs on someone then cast a delayed blast fireball, leaving it sitting on the necklace.

Not knowing when the time stop will end makes this kind of difficult, since you don't know what delay to put on the fireball.

That being said, you can probably tie a rope to the necklace and tie it to the person (so it counts as unattended but would stay with them unless they untie the rope) and then use you fireball on the necklace once time stop is over.

If you really want to do this have a tag team where the wizard plants necklaces during time stop and someone else readies an attack for after the necklaces are in position.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rysky wrote:
Rule Mule wrote:

It's in the PRD magic section.

Quote:
Timed Durations: Many durations are measured in rounds, minutes, hours, or other increments. When the time is up, the magic goes away and the spell ends. If a spell's duration is variable, the duration is rolled secretly so the caster doesn't know how long the spell will last.
The GM rolls, when it expires he proceeds with the next initiative order in the original round.
Oh wow...

But You Know, I Learned Something Today.™

...Seriously, I had no idea that was a thing. As a GM, this pleases me greatly. X D

Silver Crusade

blahpers wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Rule Mule wrote:

It's in the PRD magic section.

Quote:
Timed Durations: Many durations are measured in rounds, minutes, hours, or other increments. When the time is up, the magic goes away and the spell ends. If a spell's duration is variable, the duration is rolled secretly so the caster doesn't know how long the spell will last.
The GM rolls, when it expires he proceeds with the next initiative order in the original round.
Oh wow...

But You Know, I Learned Something Today.™

...Seriously, I had no idea that was a thing. As a GM, this pleases me greatly. X D

*nods*


Kudos to Rule Mule, it is good that the Rule clearly supports a sensible approach.

I should point out that a survey of "hidden rolls" threads will show a serious pushback on this. Some people want their magic very predictable/reliable, others appear to be afraid that the GM might cheat them.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Daw wrote:

Kudos to Rule Mule, it is good that the Rule clearly supports a sensible approach.

I should point out that a survey of "hidden rolls" threads will show a serious pushback on this. Some people want their magic very predictable/reliable, others appear to be afraid that the GM might cheat them.

"Well sorry if altering the fabric of space time is not an 'EXACT' science."

Seriously, it is one of the most powerful spells in the game- it can deal with being unpredictable.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Agreed. Want predictability? A greater maximize metamagic rod is only 121,500 gp. : )


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Rule Mule wrote:

It's in the PRD magic section.

Quote:
Timed Durations: Many durations are measured in rounds, minutes, hours, or other increments. When the time is up, the magic goes away and the spell ends. If a spell's duration is variable, the duration is rolled secretly so the caster doesn't know how long the spell will last.
The GM rolls, when it expires he proceeds with the next initiative order in the original round.

As an aside, I'm curious, is variable duration very common? My guess is no, since this is the only one I know about off-hand.


Yeah, Time Stop is the only variable duration spell I can think of off-hand.

Most spells have a duration of either rounds, mins, or hours per caster level or are instantaneous.


Claxon wrote:

Yeah, Time Stop is the only variable duration spell I can think of off-hand.

Most spells have a duration of either rounds, mins, or hours per caster level or are instantaneous.

Yeah, most variable spells tend to be variable in how long the effect lasts once it hits the enemy, rather than duration. Color spray is a fairly simple example- it can have effects for 2d4 or 1d4 rounds. But it is instantaneous in duration.


Claxon wrote:

Yeah, Time Stop is the only variable duration spell I can think of off-hand.

Most spells have a duration of either rounds, mins, or hours per caster level or are instantaneous.

Cause fear, irresistible dance, ghoul touch, and fungal infestation also have variable duration. So there are some others, but not many.


Rays and fireballs do not start to travel slow as molasses because the spell says so. It's in the incantation somehow. A mutant who is speeded up to that point can cast 3 fireballs coming from different directions or grab an ally and move them out of the way.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / why i cant harm person in time stop spell ? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in General Discussion