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Steadfast personality + Circlet of Persusion


Rules Questions

Shadow Lodge

Steadfast Personality
Source Advanced Class Guide pg. 157 (Amazon)

You rely on your absurdness and sense of self to help keep your mind clear.

Benefit: Add your Charisma modifier instead of your Wisdom bonus on Will saves. If you have a Wisdom penalty, you must apply both your Wisdom penalty and your Charisma modifier.

Would that make a will saving throw a charisma based check that would benefit from the circlet?


yes.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

This circlet thing gives me such a headache >_<

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Class Deck Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

It would work, since it replaces your Wisdom modifier.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
You rely on your absurdness

I do so love auto-correct. ;)


I would point out though that the current version of the feat only gives that benefit against mind-effecting. Still really good just not as good.


Wultram wrote:
I would point out though that the current version of the feat only gives that benefit against mind-effecting. Still really good just not as good.

Not according to the PRD.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
VRMH wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
You rely on your absurdness
I do so love auto-correct. ;)

It took me a moment to see anything wrong. I do rely on my absurdness to help keep my mind clear, as it turns out...


Hmm, if you have a Wisdom penalty, does that mean it's still a Wisdom-based check?

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rysky wrote:
This circlet thing gives me such a headache >_<

Is yours on too tight?

Shadow Lodge

Wultram wrote:
I would point out though that the current version of the feat only gives that benefit against mind-effecting. Still really good just not as good.

That would mean taking the trait would be better if true...


quibblemuch wrote:
Wultram wrote:
I would point out though that the current version of the feat only gives that benefit against mind-effecting. Still really good just not as good.
Not according to the PRD.

Steadfast Personality: In the current version (2nd printing errata), the table and the text are inconsistent. Does the feat apply on all Will saves, or on Will saves against mind-affecting effects?

The table is correct. It only applies against mind-affecting effects.

Source

Shadow Lodge

From my PDF

Steadfast Personality
You rely on your assuredness and sense of self to help
keep your mind clear.
Benefit: You gain an insight bonus on Will saving
throws against mind-affecting effects equal to your
Charisma modifier (minimum 0).

This version would not, since the wisdom modifier is still in there

ARchives of nethys

[PFS Legal] Steadfast Personality
Source Advanced Class Guide pg. 157 (Amazon)
You rely on your assuredness and sense of self to help keep your mind clear.

Benefit: Add your Charisma modifier instead of your Wisdom bonus on Will saves. If you have a Wisdom penalty, you must apply both your Wisdom penalty and your Charisma modifier.

This would, since it's a replacement

Steadfast Personality

You rely on your sense of self to keep your mind clear.

Benefit: Add your Charisma modifier instead of your Wisdom bonus to Will saves. If you have a Wisdom penalty, you must apply both your Wisdom penalty and your Charisma modifier.

This version would....

ahah, in printing 1 to printing 3 errata...

• Page 139—In the Merciless Butchery entry, in the
Benefits entry, change “swift” to “standard”. In the
Slashing Grace entry, in the Benefits section, delete “onehanded”. In the Steadfast Personality entry, change the
Benefits entry to “Use your Charisma modifier on saves
against mind-affecting effects”"

That really makes the trait a better deal, non charm compulsion leaves what.. phantasmal killer and fear effects?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Funny thing is the circlet is a head slot so you can wear it with a headband.

Charisma casters are really hard to mind control these days, no room for anyone else in their head with all that ego.


quibblemuch wrote:
Wultram wrote:
I would point out though that the current version of the feat only gives that benefit against mind-effecting. Still really good just not as good.
Not according to the PRD.

Never trust the PRD, they don't seem to update it to reflect errata.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

I didn’t think it was a “stat based check” if things were added other than the stat. Such as your will save bonus on cha based will saves. So it’s a will check that adds cha not a cha based check. But things like initiative only adds dex, so it’s a cha based check if you noble scion it to cha and you add the circlet.


James Risner wrote:
I didn’t think it was a “stat based check” if things were added other than the stat. Such as your will save bonus on cha based will saves. So it’s a will check that adds cha not a cha based check. But things like initiative only adds dex, so it’s a cha based check if you noble scion it to cha and you add the circlet.

its not only dex you add to ini, you have the feat improved ini which give a +4 to ini, an ioun stone that give a +1 insight bonus to ini and you got an advance weapon training that give you your weapon training bonus to ini, so ini is not a ability check, a ability check is a roll you made with your ability score only

Shadow Lodge

John Murdock wrote:


its not only dex you add to ini, you have the feat improved ini which give a +4 to ini, an ioun stone that give a +1 insight bonus to ini and you got an advance weapon training that give you your weapon training bonus to ini, so ini is not a ability check, a ability check is a roll you made with your ability score only

Nope.

Alternate Ability Score-Based Checks: If I change the key ability score of a skill (or other check), for example, if I change Knowledge from Intelligence to Charisma, is it no-longer an Intelligence-based check? Is it now a Charisma-based check?:

Generally yes—at the time of rolling a check, if you substitute the ability score, the check is now based on the new ability score. In the example, at the time of rolling, Knowledge would now be a Charisma-based skill and not an Intelligence-based skill for you, which would affect things like feats, spells, or items that grant bonuses on checks based on their key ability score (like circlet of persuasion). However, if you are adding a second ability modifier to a check, this is not the case. For instance, when adding both Wisdom and Dexterity on initiative checks, initiative is still a Dexterity check, not a Wisdom check. Also, this changes the check only at the time of rolling, so this does not change static class features or options made during character building such as your class’s class skills. Classes that receive “all Intelligence-based skills” as class skills, for instance, are the victim of sloppy writing, and furthermore sometimes effects might muddy the water by only changing the ability dependency sometimes and not others, which is why you check the new dependency only for a specific given roll.
posted June 2015 | back to top

a knowledge skill is going to have your ranks in it, and a loracle specifically says there it can benefit from the circlet.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Class Deck Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
John Murdock wrote:
its not only dex you add to ini, you have the feat improved ini which give a +4 to ini, an ioun stone that give a +1 insight bonus to ini and you got an advance weapon training that give you your weapon training bonus to ini, so ini is not a ability check, a ability check is a roll you made with your ability score only

Not quite.

Initiative wrote:
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check.

Adding other things to a check does not mean it isn't an ability check.


TriOmegaZero wrote:

Not quite.

Initiative wrote:
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check.
Adding other things to a check does not mean it isn't an ability check.

no an ability check is a check that isn't covered by a skill check, attack roll, or any other kind of specific roll

so at the start of battle you do an initiative check not a dexterity check yes ini is a DEX based skill but its still not a ability check

Dark Archive

I would be pretty firm in the it does not work camp. The feat does not change the save to a charisma check it just allows you to add your charisma bonus on top of a wisdom modifier. The circlet is already an outlier in terms of modifying all of those skill checks for 1 reasonable price, allowing these to stacks would actually encourage any feat rich class to burn a feat and buy a +3 on a save for only 4500. In short it sounds like it would move it to a big time contender for the nerf bat.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

In the original thread that changed me from “it doesn’t work for initiative” to “it does”, SKR explained a lot. Can someone find the links?

I recall initiative is an ability check because you are only adding Dex and stuff like improved initiative, saves are not ability checks because you are adding your save bonuses, ranks change skill checks from ability checks to skill checks but they are still based on the stat used which could be different than the original stat.

Shadow Lodge

John Murdock wrote:

so at the start of battle you do an initiative check not a dexterity check yes ini is a DEX based skill but its still not a ability check

The spoilered FAQ says the exact opposite.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

An initiative check is absolutely an ability check. The fact that feats and abilities add to it in limited circumstances doesn't change that anymore than having skill focus (climb) changes climb checks from being skill checks.

Shadow Lodge

Davor Firetusk wrote:
I would be pretty firm in the it does not work camp. The feat does not change the save to a charisma check it just allows you to add your charisma bonus on top of a wisdom modifier.

Some versions of it. Which is why i kept getting and seeing different answers on this.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Adding an ability mod to a check is not enough to make it an ability-based check.

For example, if you have a Dexterity-based check, and an ability that says you can add your Charisma bonus to it; it does not also become a Charisma-based check. It is still a Dexterity-based check.

However, if you had an ability that said you replaced Your Dexterity modifier with your Charisma modifier, then I believe it would then be considered a Charisma-based check.

Basically, you can only ever have one primary score governing the ability-based check. Everything else are just bonuses. They don't change the kind of check it is.

Hope that make sense.


Yes, the rules are that if you substitute the main stat, that it's now based on the new stat at time of roll.
Charisma BASED is the key here, it's not charisma checks, but any check that primarily adds charisma as the main stat. So it works on cha checks, cha based skills, cha based attacks, cha based saves, cha based concentration.


Saving throws are not checks.
Attacks are also not checks.
The only things that mechanically count as checks are combat maneuver checks, concentration checks, skill checks, and ability checks (including initiative).
Therefore, this combination doesn't work RAW.

EDIT: Actually, no, upon double-checking the rules, it turns out I was wrong:

CRB wrote:

Check

A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks and saving throws.


Mashallah wrote:

Saving throws are not checks.

Attacks are also not checks.
The only things that mechanically count as checks are combat maneuver checks, concentration checks, skill checks, and ability checks (including initiative).
Therefore, this combination doesn't work RAW.

linky

PRD wrote:
Check: A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and saving throws.

Helps to actually know the rules before stating what RAW rules are.


I edited my post before your reply. :P


i have go to reread the rule about ini to be sure and i was in the wrong, the rules about ini say its a dexterity check so an ability check, i like those kind of conversation its an occasion to be sure to not be in the wrong when you are


Steadfast Personality has been nerfed and is limited to mind-affecting

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