Assuming the people involved have a high enough HD, what should the members of this wacko cult detect as?
The members of this cult have come to the conclusion (mostly by having lived through some really bad and violent times) that life, in general, is suffering. Whether there is a greedy and uncaring aristocracy that refuses to help the starving peasants, or malicious raiders who kill and enslave any who can't defend themselves, or scheming devils who attempt to warp and corrupt everything you love into depravity, life is, in their view, defined by suffering. What simple pleasures can be had in life are just temporary reprieves for most before the suffering resumes. The cult believes that just solving the immediate crises plaguing the people isn't enough, as a new generation is born and they will surely suffer as well when a new crisis arrives. No, in order to break the karmic cycle of suffering, to transcend mortal suffering, life must end. The good souls will get their eternal reward in the heavens, free from suffering, and the evil souls that have been malicious causing others to suffer will suffer their just rewards as well in the lower planes. As they see things, in the afterlife, common causes of suffering like,hunger, disease, warring kingdoms, etc are, for the most part, just not a factor. To that end, the cult has decided that the most efficient way to do so is with a special disease they've concocted. Is painless even as it weakens and kills the body. They offer a message of peace and hope to anyone who would listen, and actively oppose any groups or individuals (even in the face of personal peril) that would cause suffering to others, even as they wait for their disease to spread and end life. They do not do this with any expectations of reward or gain, but merely because they believe this is the right thing to do.
The alignment rules state:
Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.
This cult could arguably check off the list for Altruism and Concern for the dignity of sentient beings (although yes, there may be a bit of cognitive dissonance in their beliefs), as they make personal sacrifices to help others. Of course they do not have Respect for Life. Their entire philosophy disrespects Living as a way of life (no pun intended).
This cult does kill, of course, primarily through spreading their disease, but they don't do it out of sport, or do it out of convenience to get something else they want. They do end up hurting people, since killing off members of society deceases society's ability to function, not to mention the mental anguish of people losing loved ones. The cult doesn't quite see it that way of course, or perhaps some members see it like the pain of a needle to inject a necessary medicine. there is pain, but it is for a beneficial situation later. Regarding oppression, not only do they not do they, they actively oppose it.
Their intent is arguably good, but the side effect (everyone being dead) is probably not good. But, they do try to minimize suffering on the way to their desired end. So, how should the objective morality of the universe label these cultists?
Souls go to the plane they're the most philosophically aligned with correct? Not sure Abaddon is the right one for their philosophy even if the death of mortal life is a shared goal. Daemons hate all mortal life, but really just want to kill so they can get to the mortal soul and eat it. This cult wants everyone to continue existing as Petitioners or other outsiders.
At what point does well-intentioned extremism become unequivocally evil?
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They sound like annihilists...
Annihilists
Nothing matters. Entropy and chaos have created a world where nothing lasts, nothing means anything, and even the greatest works or truths will fall to dust and obscurity in the blink of an eye. You know that those who claim otherwise do themselves and everyone else a disservice, and you cannot abide anyone who perpetuates society’s great lies of love and meaning. Instead, you choose to reveal their willful ignorance by furthering the cause of destruction. The world offends you, and thus you will bring it down.
If you are an annihilist, you:
Have no feelings or scruples, or aspire to have none.
See entropy and death everywhere, and accept (and inflict) them as the true pillars of reality.
Despise anything that aspires to permanence, growth, or meaning.Code: Everything crumbles. Who are you to argue with that?
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They sound like annihilists...
Annihilists
Nothing matters. Entropy and chaos have created a world where nothing lasts, nothing means anything, and even the greatest works or truths will fall to dust and obscurity in the blink of an eye. You know that those who claim otherwise do themselves and everyone else a disservice, and you cannot abide anyone who perpetuates society’s great lies of love and meaning. Instead, you choose to reveal their willful ignorance by furthering the cause of destruction. The world offends you, and thus you will bring it down.
If you are an annihilist, you:
Have no feelings or scruples, or aspire to have none.
See entropy and death everywhere, and accept (and inflict) them as the true pillars of reality.
Despise anything that aspires to permanence, growth, or meaning.Code: Everything crumbles. Who are you to argue with that?
These people have lots of scruples and feelings. They just believe the afterlife is a much better mode of existence than life. They're not nihilists. they don't want NOTHING. They just want something different than life on the material plane.
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They are a religious cult that murders people who are not members of their cult along with people who share their beliefs.
Whatever is going on in your head, once you decide to kill me based on your belief system and not my actions, you're evil
There is nothing "good" or "neutral" about your behavior, no matter what the fairy dust is telling you.
I think of it like this.
Everyone pretty much thinks they're good. Let's just first assume that killing people is hurting them.
Even if they think they're being altruistic, they're really not. Even if they think they are concerned for life, by snuffing it they're really not, since being concerned for innocent life would be preserving it.
So, even if they think they're heroes, they're not and are really just evil.
While on the Lawful Chaotic axis it is entirely possible to have elements of both and be Neutral, I really think Good or Evil is all or nothing. Sure, someone who does respect the authority but will leave it to do their objective is Neutral on L/C, but if you kill a person and then save a person you're just crazy.
They have given in to despair, and have chosen to devalue others lives, and are taking away others choice. However they delude themselves, they are taking away others rights to life, doing it nicely doesn't change this. Evil.
Edit/Add
I find it worrisome that you have chosen to label the mass killing as a side effect. Serious Ick factor at best, shades of Jonestown, Holocaust, and any other rationalization for mass murder of the weak and innocent.
Wait, I thought objective reality by definition can't be entirely intent-based?
This cult sounds solidly Neutral Evil to me, just 1 or 2 steps short of Daemons (and the smarter Daemons would probably like to egg them on), but given their cognitive dissonance, I could see them potentially having a cult-specific feat makes their alignment harder to detect.
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They are not altruists for a single reason: they think they know what is best for people and they impose it into other people disregarding of what those people want. Imposing your own point of view without taking consequences into account even if you do it thinking you are doing it for them is not altruistic. You are stikk imposing your will to others.
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Eh...I think some of them would probably ping true neutral, a lot would ping LE and NE, it would vary from person to person.
They are not altruists for a single reason: they think they know what is best for people and they impose it into other people disregarding of what those people want. Imposing your own point of view without taking consequences into account even if you do it thinking you are doing it for them is not altruistic. You are stikk imposing your will to others.
That just makes them lawful, not evil.
Wait, I thought objective reality by definition can't be entirely intent-based?
Welcome to Pathfinder, where sometimes intent matters and sometimes it doesn't. While good and evil in the game are objective, that doesn't mean intent doesn't matter. If you kill a man because you know he's the evil wizard Torb who is planning to blight the country, it's probably good. If you kill the same person just because you don't like his stupid face, it's probably evil. If you kill him because you accidentally ran over him with your cart, it's neutral.
Eh...I think some of them would probably ping true neutral, a lot would ping LE and NE, it would vary from person to person.
They are not altruists for a single reason: they think they know what is best for people and they impose it into other people disregarding of what those people want. Imposing your own point of view without taking consequences into account even if you do it thinking you are doing it for them is not altruistic. You are stikk imposing your will to others.That just makes them lawful, not evil.
Wait, I thought objective reality by definition can't be entirely intent-based?Welcome to Pathfinder, where sometimes intent matters and sometimes it doesn't. While good and evil in the game are objective, that doesn't mean intent doesn't matter. If you kill a man because you know he's the evil wizard Torb who is planning to blight the country, it's probably good. If you kill the same person just because you don't like his stupid face, it's probably evil. If you kill him because you accidentally ran over him with your cart, it's neutral.
Yes and it can get even more complicated when intent is corrupted it can become a real headache.
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Tammy found a few (several) well timed disappearances will do it. Especially if you know a ritual to reanimate their corpses into ghouls. Tammy didn't, but that's why you kidnap a few kids and bury them alive with their parent's corpses. Eventually one of them has to turn.
The most important thing, is to do it for yourself.
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Tammy found a few (several) well timed disappearances will do it. Especially if you know a ritual to reanimate their corpses into ghouls. Tammy didn't, but that's why you kidnap a few kids and bury them alive with their parent's corpses. Eventually one of them has to turn.
The most important thing, is to do it for yourself.
... has Tammy played Until Dawn?
Tammy scares me...and yet is still somehow adorable... so conflicted
Assuming the people involved have a high enough HD, what should the members of this wacko cult detect as?
The members of this cult have come to the conclusion (mostly by having lived through some really bad and violent times) that life, in general, is suffering...
So lets see what we have got here...
The members of this cult have come to the conclusion (mostly by having lived through some really bad and violent times) that life, in general, is suffering. Whether there is a greedy and uncaring aristocracy that refuses to help the starving peasants, or malicious raiders who kill and enslave any who can't defend themselves, or scheming devils who attempt to warp and corrupt everything you love into depravity, life is, in their view, defined by suffering. What simple pleasures can be had in life are just temporary reprieves for most before the suffering resumes. The cult believes that just solving the immediate crises plaguing the people isn't enough, as a new generation is born and they will surely suffer as well when a new crisis arrives.
So they are seem to be, some kind of pseudo-buddhists...
Okay, no problem here, probably firmly Neutral.No, in order to break the karmic cycle of suffering, to transcend mortal suffering, life must end.
Uhhh...okay so they are rather extreme pseudo-buddhists.
Might still qualify as Neutral though.To that end, the cult has decided that the most efficient way to do so is with a special disease they've concocted. Is painless even as it weakens and kills the body. They offer a message of peace and hope to anyone who would listen, and actively oppose any groups or individuals (even in the face of personal peril) that would cause suffering to others, even as they wait for their disease to spread and end life. They do not do this with any expectations of reward or gain, but merely because they believe this is the right thing to do.
So, this cult of extreme pseudo-buddhists have made a disease, that can painlessly kills people.
My question would be, how do they use it?I mean if they just infect everyone they come across, that would make them straight up genocidal, which is probably firmly in the Evil category.
However, if they preach their message of ending suffering, and offer up their disease to those, that are either willing or are truly suffering, then I would probably move them back towards Neutral.
They are straight up genocidal. They just have zero malice.
Cognitive dissonance can be an amazing thing - I'd argue that most of the cult members ping as neutral, even though the cult as a whole is a neutral evil organization. (Lawful evil would reject a burn everything down philosophy, while chaotic evil would at least enjoy themselves.)
I'd probably restrict pinging as evil only to members who've actually worked on or spread the disease, because those people have actually acted on the cult's goal of omnicide.
Though I'd expect most the neutral cult members to still go to Abaddon.
The cult may well have an Daemonic sponsor, despite their lack of worship; I don't think Apollyon gives a damn about who you serve if your goals or methods still line up with his.
Edit: It's also worth noting that the Paizo APs contain numerous examples of NPCs who've performed a single terrible deed but are still actually neutral, because their one heinous act was a one-time thing.
I suppose a big divider between a neutral character and an evil character is simply this: Does the character regret what they have done?
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A wonderful example of how limited the Alignment system can be :-)
I mean, one could make a fairly good case that in a D&D universe these guys ARE RIGHT. For a Good Aligned character, dying is arguably the best thing that can happen to you :-). Maybe it should be a Good Act to painlessly kill a Good person, at least one with no current compelling responsibilities. The best thing to do really is to kill everybody while they're in a state of comparative grace, especially if you have the means to do it peacefully.
<Aside>Just want to assure everybody that I'm not some Sociopath who believes that would apply in OUR universe too. Our universe is, morally, rather different than D&D</aside>
Sophistry aside, by most peoples definitions these guys are
1) B*&@*$@ crazy
2) Evil
But that former seems to sometimes protect you against being evil, at least some of the time. There are quite a few published NPCs who are clearly evil but who have an alignment not listed as evil, presumably because they're b*~!$$$ crazy
What is the definition of evil really? Can people who are insane truly be evil? They're wrong and need to be stopped ofmcourse, but can we actually apply the word evil to them?
Maybe it should be a Good Act to painlessly kill a Good person, at least one with no current compelling responsibilities. The best thing to do really is to kill everybody while they're in a state of comparative grace, especially if you have the means to do it peacefully
That is a peculiar belief system that is not universal. It assumes that there is a life after death AND it also assumes that life-after-death is always better than their current life for a good person. "State of grace" is a very peculiar christian concept that doesn't have much to do with the real world for most of the planet.
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Maybe it should be a Good Act to painlessly kill a Good person, at least one with no current compelling responsibilities. The best thing to do really is to kill everybody while they're in a state of comparative grace, especially if you have the means to do it peacefullyThat is a peculiar belief system that is not universal. It assumes that there is a life after death AND it also assumes that life-after-death is always better than their current life for a good person. "State of grace" is a very peculiar christian concept that doesn't have much to do with the real world for most of the planet.
But that is precisely my point. In Golarion, it is essentially KNOWN that there is a life after death, one that is going to be better than their current life for at least the vast majority of people.
But that is precisely my point. In Golarion, it is essentially KNOWN that there is a life after death, one that is going to be better than their current life for at least the vast majority of people.Maybe it should be a Good Act to painlessly kill a Good person, at least one with no current compelling responsibilities. The best thing to do really is to kill everybody while they're in a state of comparative grace, especially if you have the means to do it peacefullyThat is a peculiar belief system that is not universal. It assumes that there is a life after death AND it also assumes that life-after-death is always better than their current life for a good person. "State of grace" is a very peculiar christian concept that doesn't have much to do with the real world for most of the planet.
It's probably also known that murder is evil (via know alignment), regardless of the pain inflicted.
The answer (as always in alignment discussions) is that it's up to the DM. Alignment has little to do with real world morality other than being an extremely poor model of it.
What is the definition of evil really? Can people who are insane truly be evil? They're wrong and need to be stopped ofmcourse, but can we actually apply the word evil to them?
Your cultists are willfully deluded, not insane.
Most folks with mental disorders still have a solid sense of right and wrong, even if their own brain has turned against them.
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Incidentally, if you're running these guys in your game, they are extremely philosophically close to the Death Cult from Villain Codex (life is suffering, death is release, uses diseases), so you should get some great use of that chapter.
That death cult creates undead, and that is 100% always evil acts right? Not too much ambiguity there...
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Oh they're evil aligned. Published NPCs always have an alignment. But they see themselves as working against oppression and being the "good guys" in a bad situation, bringing equality in death and fighting injustice with a message of acceptance and hope.
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Denying evil acts are evil is a really good start to becoming evil.
Just Sayin'
^It's already a really good start towards entry into the as-yet-unpublished Cognitive Dissonance feat chain . . . .
What about the LG paladin who tries to make everyone conform to his code of ethics? Others might mot agree with his code. Is he acting evilly?
^That's one of the reasons you have to watch out for falling Paladins . . . .
What about the LG paladin who tries to make everyone conform to his code of ethics? Others might mot agree with his code. Is he acting evilly?
Honestly, the best way to phrase that and understand it is that the base assumption is Paladins are right. The game starts off by assuming what is 'Good' or 'Evil' and clearly establishes the difference. Since Paladins are just 'correct' they do have the right to impose a bit.
Edit: Lawful Good also will value freedom, but nowhere near as much as Chaotic Good does. There is a Lawful Good god of ignorance. (See no evil, do no evil.) There are also archons that censor blasphemous texts. Freedom is secondary to good and order from an LG perspective...
What about the LG paladin who tries to make everyone conform to his code of ethics? Others might mot agree with his code. Is he acting evilly?
Depends how they do it.
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I'm explaining my previous post:
Of course Lawful organizations tend to have a set of rules that people has to follow and that rules are often set by leaders and others have to accept. That's how law works.
But the difference between good and evil lawful organisations is that evil organisations tend to impose the point of view of their leaders about what is good and what is not and don't care about what their followers think because the leaders know best.
A good organisation should always be sensitive about the needs and desires of the people under their charges. They should listen and adapt to what people need. In the end, specially in a feudal system, the leaders are the ones who set the rules and they won't please everybody, but at least they should care about what most of the people wants.
A chaotic evil isn't either above forcing other people into their view of what's right and what's not. He might not set rules, but he might take decissions on what's better for another person and act without taking into account what the other person wants anyway just because he knows best.
So I'd define those selfish acts disguised as selfless as evil more than lawful.
I harm you or kill you because it's good for you even if you don't want to seems like evil to me.
Evil planes are not punitive planes.
Evil beings prosper in the Evil planes. If you wanted to really "punish" them, you would send them to the exact opposite plane where would be forever stuck in a hostile environment.
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Evil planes are not punitive planes.
Evil beings prosper in the Evil planes. If you wanted to really "punish" them, you would send them to the exact opposite plane where would be forever stuck in a hostile environment.
Well not all evil beings really only the most powerful typically the other ones get bullied and tortured. at least that how demon and devil hierarchy seem to go.
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Evil planes are not punitive planes.
Evil beings prosper in the Evil planes. If you wanted to really "punish" them, you would send them to the exact opposite plane where would be forever stuck in a hostile environment.
Eh, kinda sorta? The evil planes really, REALLY suck for the beings at the bottom, and petitioners are the lowest of the low.
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Let's see:
What do they want? To murder some countless innocents and everyone else, exterminating life itself.
Why do they want to do that? Because they have convinced themselves of some b!&!%+* tripe about how life is suffering.
Are there ANY mitigating factors? Yes, they are not doing it out of malice, they just do it because for every person, THEY think it's better that he dies than suffers.
Seriously? This is a discussion we even have to have, whether they are Evil? I smell troll bait. What's next, "hey my cult who enjoys torturing people for fun for extended periods until death, then revives them and does it again, oh and they only do it to children, are they really Evil, I mean they do it without malice and for a great reward they think their deity will give them?"
The only way they could be not utterly monstrous and Evil beyond the pale is if they stopped recruiting and started their genocide with themselves (all fully informed), ceasing once they were dead.
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Let's see:
What do they want? To murder some countless innocents and everyone else, exterminating life itself.
Why do they want to do that? Because they have convinced themselves of some b#&*!&+ tripe about how life is suffering.
Are there ANY mitigating factors? Yes, they are not doing it out of malice, they just do it because for every person, THEY think it's better that he dies than suffers.
Seriously? This is a discussion we even have to have, whether they are Evil? I smell troll bait.
The only way they could be not utterly monstrous and Evil beyond the pale is if they stopped recruiting and started their genocide with themselves (all fully informed), ceasing once they were dead.
Any attempt to continue after their dead is clearly an evil act.
Any attempt to continue after their dead is clearly an evil act.Let's see:
What do they want? To murder some countless innocents and everyone else, exterminating life itself.
Why do they want to do that? Because they have convinced themselves of some b#&*!&+ tripe about how life is suffering.
Are there ANY mitigating factors? Yes, they are not doing it out of malice, they just do it because for every person, THEY think it's better that he dies than suffers.
Seriously? This is a discussion we even have to have, whether they are Evil? I smell troll bait.
The only way they could be not utterly monstrous and Evil beyond the pale is if they stopped recruiting and started their genocide with themselves (all fully informed), ceasing once they were dead.
Point was just that doing that would still be evil if the genocide continued once the cultists were dead.
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Oh... well I was referencing undead.