Right and if you look at my above post
3. This one is tricky the skill system needs to be improved a bit for higher levels to allow greater actions with skill check something like a 60 foot leap with a dc 30 and etc.
I posted that like an hour ago..... you could at least read my stuff before you come at me like that.
yes but even if you had some silly crafting skill like craft boat you can still use said craft boat check to craft your magic items.This is actually not true, in "Why don't all fighters take Master Crafstman?" we learned that Master Crafstman itself can only be taken once and it is tied exclusively to the skill chosen with the feat. Even if you take Craft Wondrous item you can only make magic items that can be physically crafted with your chosen skill. Profession (tailor) was singled out as the best choice for the most breadth of options.any martial can craft magic gear with master craftman and craft arms and armor and craft wonderous items which are 3 feats significantly better than the two you listedNot saying they need to do all the things a wizard can do. I'm saying they should be able to do things of the same scale or at least impressiveness as what a fullcaster can do. And yes, it's not exclusive to fighter, though I think the problem is worst with Fighter (and fighter hybrids).That's not a problem exclusive to fighters though, that's more or less a problem with full casters. Problems that go that deep are system based, not class based.
'Balance at all costs' should not be the goal. Comparable power for similar role holding classes is fair, but trying to say that a fighter needs to be able to do all the things a wizard can do is going to be fruitless.
Hate to say it, but you might want to look at other systems that make martials better and casters worse like 5e.
Fighters are the only full noncasting class (save for archetypes that give up partial spellcasting) that can make their own magic armor and weapons (via Master Armorer and Warrior Spirit, respectively) so I'm not sure why fighters are the worst at it.
Only if all of your magic items were boats of varying sizes.
yes but even if you had some silly crafting skill like craft boat you can still use said craft boat check to craft your magic items.read it again, slowly and carefully.
damn thing is a huge paragraph...
yes it says Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
any craft or profession will do which is why this is actually really good for alchemists as they can use craft alchemy to make magic items
there we go... feat NEVER makes an exception to what the skill can create other than it can be magiced.
Some people plat with wizards that somehow (still not sure on this one) always have the right spell or the time to prepare it or create a golem or use their magic in some overpowering way and some do not.
Yes, many caster players deliberately avoid hogging the spotlight or exploiting overpowered combinations for a number of reasons.
Some people have wizards that help the party instead of help themselves. Its all play-styles and some play-styles make the fighter seem so much worse.
What do you mean by this? Any character that helps his party helps himself and vice versa.
...some people want the martial classes to feel more down to earth.Now I think the fighter should be at mundane things like Diplomacy acrobatics leading people perception that sort of thing. leave magic to the magic-users.
This attitude implies that the mundane warrior is a low-level concept for low-level play, and low magic campaigns / settings. If that is the case, classes like Fighter and Rogue should only go up to level 6, and set players up for prestige classes with magical abilities.
Right and if you look at my above post
3. This one is tricky the skill system needs to be improved a bit for higher levels to allow greater actions with skill check something like a 60 foot leap with a dc 30 and etc.
I posted that like an hour ago..... you could at least read my stuff before you come at me like that.
skills can't really work this way, it'd only let you jump that far if you put all of your 1-2 ranks per level in acrobatics.
yeah my feet can crush demon skulls, but I never got enough gains to make that 2nd story jump.
easy fix maybe
divide non-opposed skill DCs by 1+(CL-10)/5 maxing out at /3 at 20th level. only apply this after 10th level obviously.
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Some people plat with wizards that somehow (still not sure on this one) always have the right spell or the time to prepare it or create a golem or use their magic in some overpowering way and some do not.Yes, many caster players deliberately avoid hogging the spotlight or exploiting overpowered combinations for a number of reasons.
some people like mage's magnificent mansion, some people like making a moon base.
Some people have wizards that help the party instead of help themselves. Its all play-styles and some play-styles make the fighter seem so much worse.
What do you mean by this? Any character that helps his party helps himself and vice versa.
you're right, casting this on the fighter is so much easier than summoning a flock of falcons and buffing those. (i picked falcons because i like it when enemies have to listen to multiple falcon cries)
yes so you have to use that specific skill to craft the items and you can only use that skill if it didn't want you to do so it would call out a predetermined skill to use such as profession magic gear maker or craft magic thingsthere we go... feat NEVER makes an exception to what the skill can create other than it can be magiced.yes but even if you had some silly crafting skill like craft boat you can still use said craft boat check to craft your magic items.read it again, slowly and carefully.
damn thing is a huge paragraph...
yes it says Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
any craft or profession will do which is why this is actually really good for alchemists as they can use craft alchemy to make magic items
craft boat still only let's you craft boats. feat doesn't change that. btw, i refuse to use any other example that isn't craft boat, because i envision a guy wearing a boat as armor and an oar as a sword.
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I'm now picturing a butcher, a baker and a candlestick maker trying to justify using their Craft skills to make weapons, armor and other Big Six items.
"I have Craft (meat)! NATURAL ARMOR IS MEAT!"
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I'm now picturing a butcher, a baker and a candlestick maker trying to justify using their Craft skills to make weapons, armor and other Big Six items.
"I have Craft (meat)! NATURAL ARMOR IS MEAT!"
honestly if I heard about a group of adventurers called the butcher baker and candlestick maker, i'd be pretty scared, at least 2/3 of them are cannibals.
the third makes candles out of his enemies so he can watch the other 2 eat.
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so down the earth that at level 20 you can kill demon lords single handedly, but not jump to the 2nd story of a building.
as for the always right spell... scrolls, what do you think they spend WBL on? it's scrolls of aboleth lung and air bubble
And to answer for the more mundane side yes you can kill a demon lord with a full arsenal of magic items and a party of 3 others at your side. And frankly I think using a demon-lord as an example is far-out there whats the CR on the weakest demon-lord?
The whole point was that their is different play-styles. If your so sure the one in your head is absolutely the best then there is no discussion and its all a waste of time. I would not mind the skill system getting a revamp it doesn't scale well. That I admit. Is that the only problem you see?
As far as the any character the helps himself helps the party... that has its exceptions. Never had a evil pc hiding out with a good pc?(just an exmaple.) but to specify I mean a wizard that wants to do everything himself or a wizard that wants to help the party do thing they couldn't do with out him.
so like BANDw2 example with buff fighter now or take a turn summon minions (falcons apparently because of the shrieking?) and buff them. Surely the fighter would make bet use of a haste then falcons?
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Hate to say it, but you might want to look at other systems that make martials better and casters worse like 5e.
Nooo. That method does not fit my style at all.... I want martials to be doing over the top high level things, in games like 5e martials are still doing low-level stuff at level 20 just with higher numbers and mages are doing mid-level stuff at level 20. Just because I want martials to be better, doesn't mean I want casters to be worse.
Fighters are the only full noncasting class (save for archetypes that give up partial spellcasting) that can make their own magic armor and weapons (via Master Armorer and Warrior Spirit, respectively) so I'm not sure why fighters are the worst at it.
To be honest, all that does is give them slightly better WBL. I want them to be doing high level stuff.
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(falcons apparently because of the shrieking?)
Hate to say it, but you might want to look at other systems that make martials better and casters worse like 5e.Nooo. That method does not fit my style at all.... I want martials to be doing over the top high level things, in games like 5e martials are still doing low-level stuff at level 20 just with higher numbers and mages are doing mid-level stuff at level 20. Just because I want martials to be better, doesn't mean I want casters to be worse.
Fighters are the only full noncasting class (save for archetypes that give up partial spellcasting) that can make their own magic armor and weapons (via Master Armorer and Warrior Spirit, respectively) so I'm not sure why fighters are the worst at it.To be honest, all that does is give them slightly better WBL. I want them to be doing high level stuff.
You think too small my friend, very few things cannot be done with the golf bag of niche abilities available in the wide array of magic armor available even already printed.
Did anyone ever check if Celestial Plate got reprinted in CotCTAE?
Jason if you have seen the post then you have likely seen the reasons why, assuming you continued to read. Is there something written in those post that you do not agree with regarding why?
...
You think too small my friend, very few things cannot be done with the golf bag of niche abilities available in the wide array of magic armor available even already printed.Did anyone ever check if Celestial Plate got reprinted in CotCTAE?
Can you name a bunch of them?
For bonus points, name a bunch that aren't hideously overpriced rubbish which get blow out of the water by far cheaper wondrous items.
You think too small my friend, very few things cannot be done with the golf bag of niche abilities available in the wide array of magic armor available even already printed.
There is nothing that magic armour can do that covers the power level I desire, some of it is pretty neat. But nowhere near what other characters are doing.
like seriously, why can't I jump to the 2nd story?
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Isn't that why you have a party everyone has what they are good at so you have to work togeather to cover all the bases
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Isn't that why you have a party everyone has what they are good at so you have to work togeather to cover all the bases
there's a difference between everyone covering each others bases, and wizards can landing on the SUN, but my fighter can't jump to the 2nd floor.
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Isn't that why you have a party everyone has what they are good at so you have to work togeather to cover all the bases
I have seen and been in caster light parties. In those cases all of the bases may not be covered.
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Fighters have a ton of design problems in Pathfinder and should be Unchained. They need more skill points, less equipment reliance (e.g., weapon group restrictions and having the right max DEX armor at all times), less reliance on feats (because they usually don't scale), more engaging choices, more utility.
But they are not the issue at caster-martial disparity. It's the casters that need to be taken down a notch.
"what's wrong with the fighter?"
he chose to swing a sword instead of go to magic college and get a real career like dave.
Fighters have a ton of design problems in Pathfinder and should be Unchained. They need more skill points, less equipment reliance (e.g., weapon group restrictions and having the right max DEX armor at all times), less reliance on feats (because they usually don't scale), more engaging choices, more utility.
But they are not the issue at caster-martial disparity. It's the casters that need to be taken down a notch.
nah i like the vigilante's supernatural natural ability to be unseen. fighter should be able to suplex dragons and cleave mountain paths without additional investment.
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fighter should be able to cleave mountain paths without additional investment.it would need some additional investments but i might have a build for that wont be 100% fighter tho but would be mostly fighter
"what's wrong with the fighter?"
he chose to swing a sword instead of go to magic college and get a real career like dave.
nah i like the vigilante's supernatural natural ability to be unseen. fighter should be able to suplex dragons and cleave mountain paths without additional investment.Fighters have a ton of design problems in Pathfinder and should be Unchained. They need more skill points, less equipment reliance (e.g., weapon group restrictions and having the right max DEX armor at all times), less reliance on feats (because they usually don't scale), more engaging choices, more utility.
But they are not the issue at caster-martial disparity. It's the casters that need to be taken down a notch.
I don't see how that goes against anything that I said. "Random bonus to STR/DEX/CON checks and skills" is a utility boost that can allow you to cleave mountain paths or jump to 2nd floors.
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Isn't that why you have a party everyone has what they are good at so you have to work togeather to cover all the bases
You say that as if a cleric + wizard duo can't cover every party role. :P
Then look at systems designed for superhero or seinen/shoujen action manga, because D&D has decided that a party with Doctor Strange, Lina Inverse, Locke Lamore and Brienne of Tarth as sample mid-high level characters is an excellent idea.
Or, I just homebrew the stuff I want into the game since having only a single issue with a system seems like a odd reason to leave a whole game that you otherwise like.
But a cleric and magic user shouldn't be able to do every roll in a party
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But a cleric and magic user shouldn't be able to do every roll in a party
Actually, I forgot the Spell Sage archetype. Wizard could cover every role on it's own since spell sage lets it cast cleric and druid spells.
I mean, it makes sense for magic to be able to cover every role, magic can potentially do anything. But there probably shouldn't be classes with such a big scope when it comes to what magic they have available.
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As far as the any character the helps himself helps the party... that has its exceptions. Never had a evil pc hiding out with a good pc?(just an exmaple.) but to specify I mean a wizard that wants to do everything himself or a wizard that wants to help the party do thing they couldn't do with out him.
The thing is, though, that often means the wizard has to play sub optimally (e.g. Deliberately suck somewhat) in order to not make the fighter feel worthless. It'd be like Superman holding back on Darkseid to spare Batman's feelings. The situation as it stands is totally the Angel Summoner/BMX Bandit problem.
Isn't that why you have a party everyone has what they are good at so you have to work togeather to cover all the basesYou say that as if a cleric + wizard duo can't cover every party role. :P
Yeah, I was running a campaign that had two cleric/wizard/mystic theurges. Just the two of them alone completely ROFLstomped everything. Once in a while the paladin would do something important, but it wasn't common. The only time the martials got to shine was when the party was separated, and those circumstances were generally desperate due to how many party roles weren't covered.
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(falcons apparently because of the shrieking?)>reference<
I see. Well then falcons it is.
As far as the any character the helps himself helps the party... that has its exceptions. Never had a evil pc hiding out with a good pc?(just an exmaple.) but to specify I mean a wizard that wants to do everything himself or a wizard that wants to help the party do thing they couldn't do with out him.The thing is, though, that often means the wizard has to play sub optimally (e.g. Deliberately suck somewhat) in order to not make the fighter feel worthless. It'd be like Superman holding back on Darkseid to spare Batman's feelings. The situation as it stands is totally the Angel Summoner/BMX Bandit problem.
Yeah, I was running a campaign that had two cleric/wizard/mystic theurges. Just the two of them alone completely ROFLstomped everything. Once in a while the paladin would do something important, but it wasn't common. The only time the martials got to shine was when the party was separated, and those circumstances were generally desperate due to how many party roles weren't covered.Isn't that why you have a party everyone has what they are good at so you have to work togeather to cover all the basesYou say that as if a cleric + wizard duo can't cover every party role. :P
maybe for some games it might be that way. that has not been my experience. You can play a wizard that buffs the party and can work fine without handicapping yourself or are you saying if your not going with the optimized build and spells your not playing the wizard to its full potential?
Anyways if your not offering solutions I don't see the point. It looks like really that casters need nerfed from the examples you guys are giving. if one character can take care of a encounter designed for 4 by itself then it would make more sense to nerf them then buff the monsters and the 3 other pc's.
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maybe for some games it might be that way. that has not been my experience. You can play a wizard that buffs the party and can work fine without handicapping yourself or are you saying if your not going with the optimized build and spells your not playing the wizard to its full potential?
I'm saying that, to keep the fighter from being superfluous the wizard deliberately has to play down. Even a sub par wizard tends to be more effective than an extraordinary fighter.
Anyways if your not offering solutions I don't see the point. It looks like really that casters need nerfed from the examples you guys are giving. if one character can take care of a encounter designed for 4 by itself then it would make more sense to nerf them then buff the monsters and the 3 other pc's.
Solutions have been offered in the 8 billion or so threads that have popped up here and on other forums. The point is that, despite this fact, implementation of these solutions generally requires a lot of work. When I was GMing, the vast bulk of my time was spent encounter engineering to try and make encounters more balanced. I did buff the monsters, I did buff the martials in the party (going as far as to give the martials free archetypes just spliced onto their characters, combining feats, giving the "necessary" fighter fears away for free, and more). Even after all that, the martials STILL couldn't compete on any given task with the full casters.
Well said vidmaster7.
If one character can do everything in the party what's the point of other classes ?
Clearly that type of class is way over powered and makes playing in a group redundant .
Maybe magic needs to be rained in a bit just because it has the possibility to do anything doesn't mean that it should
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Maybe magic needs to be rained in a bit just because it has the possibility to do anything doesn't mean that it should
The problem with this is that often I see fixes which target "magic" when magic isn't the problem when it comes to roles being overrided.
It's the issue that some classes have so little flavour that the dev's decided to give them themes like "everything that could possibly be flashy but also illusions." and "anything a god could theoretically give you and since I guess there's a god of anything you basically can do anything".
sooo nerf casters then?
Im just not sure what your motivation is? what are you wanting? are we pushing for a second edition? unchained? unchained for what you guys are wanting would have to be bigger then just overhauling one class it would have to effect every martial in the game. I mean until pathfinder makes a second edition (which doesn't seem like a thing any time soon) I don't see the point in rehashing this argument every week.
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If one character can do everything in the party what's the point of other classes ?
Clearly that type of class is way over powered and makes playing in a group redundant .
Maybe magic needs to be rained in a bit just because it has the possibility to do anything doesn't mean that it should
While I agree, nerfing classes is always poorly received overall. It's a tough situation that is difficult to resolve without alienating a large segment of the base.
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It's the issue that some classes have so little flavour that the dev's decided to give them themes like "everything that could possibly be flashy but also illusions." and "anything a god could theoretically give you and since I guess there's a god of anything you basically can do anything".
I think building in specialization to the classes would be a big step in the right direction (and not by the current evocation, abjuration, etc. fashion). When a wizard can't be the Swiss Army knife, it gives the other players more weight. Again, though, that will rub a lot of people the wrong way. Still if the accompany that with enough flavor, it may offset that.
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When I get around to unchaining the wizard I'll probably turn it's focus to being one of study of magic. You might not be able to perform all the tricks of a school of magic, but you'd know all the metaspells and be able to interact with the field of your focus. Wizards shouldn't be "I study magic and thus can do anything magic could do." they should be "I study magic and thus am really good at picking magic apart and figuring out how it all works." Though I can see them being able to do anything on the most basic level as they put the building blocks together.
sooo nerf casters then?
Im just not sure what your motivation is? what are you wanting? are we pushing for a second edition? unchained? unchained for what you guys are wanting would have to be bigger then just overhauling one class it would have to effect every martial in the game. I mean until pathfinder makes a second edition (which doesn't seem like a thing any time soon) I don't see the point in rehashing this argument every week.
Not *AGAIN* !! Casters have been nerfed repeatedly since the passege to 3rd ed.
That's my preference.
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I see this is turning in another martial vs casters disparity thread.
My opinion on this is simple: the problem lies withing the fact under 3.+ ed rules the spell system has very little limits and a plethora of ways to circumvent the limits that are in place (or to craft unintended "comboes" like limited wish + geas).
A wizard (but also a cleric or a druid to a slightly lesser extent) can do anything because there's so many spells and such easy ways to get them. Besides it was decided that casters need to be quick at casting and almost never need to risk failing when they do.
The problem then is NOT that the fighter cannot jump to the moon, the problem is the wizard can teleport to the moon, vaporize a dragon, craft a superweapon of doom, and have demons and angels do the fighting for him all by expending very limited resources (or use some contrived trick to not spend resources at all...), all in the same day. This in turn allows the caster classes "to cheat" party roles because the system makes them able to effectively do anything AND do it in a consistent way.
Casters don't need hard nerfs then, they need specialization and a better characterization. And spells need to have limits again.
Want to teleport? You can but it's a ritual, it takes time, resources and it is unreliable.
Want to cast wish? No problem. But again you can't do it in one round it should take several rounds and you can't force some extraplanar being into giving such reality warping power to you for free.
The rationale would be that for such powerful spells you need to have a "high investment high returns" system, instead of the current one "I effortlessly trivialize the game because someone decided it's more fun this way".
That said spells like fireball or haste should stay as they are because they don't risk to overshadow other characters as much as the real offenders.
Nah. Boost everyone up to par with a well-played wizard/cleric/druid at all levels.sooo nerf casters then?
Im just not sure what your motivation is? what are you wanting? are we pushing for a second edition? unchained? unchained for what you guys are wanting would have to be bigger then just overhauling one class it would have to effect every martial in the game. I mean until pathfinder makes a second edition (which doesn't seem like a thing any time soon) I don't see the point in rehashing this argument every week.
You may as well make a new game at that point.
The 2 skill points per level is also horribly crippling in a skill-based system.
.If the fighter could.. well.. fight, it would at least be fullfilling its core function.
It really doesn't though. When you go to make your character do what you want your character to do out of all the options out there something else probably does it better or just takes a fighter dip.
One handed fighter? Swashbuckler
Unarmed fighter? Monk/brawler
Sword and board? Sword and board ranger
Two weapon fighting? two weapon fighting ranger
Mounted combat? Cavalier
Archer? Ranger archery style
why is the Ranger a better TWF fighter than the fighter? wouldn't you get more feats faster with a fighter? am I missing something?
Two handed weapon? B b. barbarian.