15 point buy, why does it appeal to you?


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RDM42 wrote:

Unless someone concentrates specifically on making a bag character I find that scenario has pretty much been a total myth in my games. Someone might not be as strong a single others, but I've never seen someone make a cha after so incapable of effecting enemies that they just sit around.

And again, why does every single combination of race and class need to produce a viable character anyway?

That is a different question than the previous one, but my previous answer still applies.

That is not the same thing as saying there is a race that is so behind the curve that you cant use it to make a decent character with any class.

To my knowledge all PC races can be viable with any class that is viable already.

I also dont think you have to intentionally make a bad character in order for it to be almost useless, but I do think it is rare.

I am sure you also know that a nonviable character is not pulling their weight. They don't have to be 100% useless. That is pretty much impossible even if you use an NPC class.

I am really having trouble understanding the point of your question also. It is almost like you are advocating that someone bring a character in that will endanger the party.


No. someone is saying fifteen point buy is bad because you can't make, say, a, dwarf sorcerer who is 'effective' with it. The answer to that is "make something other than a dwarf sorcerer"

How can it be any clearer?


"Should all combinations be good anyway?"
Yes, because it allows greater self-expression and creative freedom.
No, because it makes the simulation of the fictive world less immersive.

Depends what you value.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
RDM42 wrote:

No. someone is saying fifteen point buy is bad because you can't make, say, a, dwarf sorcerer who is 'effective' with it. The answer to that is "make something other than a dwarf sorcerer"

How can it be any clearer?

Even this is false.

The person complaining may not like the choices that they may need to be "effective," but that is a very different argument.

Dwarf sorcerer (Elemental/Earth bloodline)
Stonesinger alternate racial trait
10 Str, 12 Dex, 12 Con (+2 race), 12 Int, 10 Wis (+2 race), 15 Cha (-2 race)
or
10 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Con, 12 Int, 10 Wis, 14 Cha and multiclass/prestige class into fighter/eldritch knight/arcane archer or rogue/arcane trickster

Dwarf sorcerer (wildblooded; Arcane/Sage bloodline)
10 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Con (+2 race), 16 Int, 12 Wis (+2 race), 8 Cha (-2 race)


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Scythia wrote:
It appeals to me because it tells me upfront what games I don't want to be in.

+1 for wholehearted approval


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RDM42 wrote:
And again, why does every single combination of race and class need to produce a viable character anyway?

I often will implement house rules to make viable race/class combinations that would not otherwise work because of default mechanics (simple solution: eliminate race penalties, give people a bonus to one stat for race and one stat for class).

Just because if a character has it set in their heart of hearts that they want to play a Dwarven Bard, a Gnome Barbarian, etc. I dislike it when the mechanics stand in the way of a character concept that players like, particularly when it's an easy fix. The fix, however, does not involve "higher point buys."


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RDM42 wrote:

No. someone is saying fifteen point buy is bad because you can't make, say, a, dwarf sorcerer who is 'effective' with it. The answer to that is "make something other than a dwarf sorcerer"

How can it be any clearer?

Well, when a Dwarf sorcerer is what I want to play, I don't like the PB to be an obstacle to that.

Sczarni

15 point buy appeals to me by limiting the number of monks and other pesky MAD classes. I mean, how dare they think they can even come close to my SAD wizard or caster cleric! With a 20 in your favorite casting stat at level one, and a 14 dex for some init, by only sacking the needless strength and charisma (unless charisma is your casting stat), how could you complain about a 15 point buy?

Above average characters these are not. A wizard starting at level 1, with either 15 point buy, or 20, or 25 point buy, will have a 20 intelligence regardless.

But if you wanna carry on that legacy of monk-hate (how dare they have perfect bodies!), you go with 15 point buy. Especially in Rise of the Runelords, which wasn't a push-over adventure like Skulls and Shackles. I did enjoy both though, for different reasons. But our monk in Rise had more than a 14 AC, I'll tell you that much.


RDM42 wrote:

No. someone is saying fifteen point buy is bad because you can't make, say, a, dwarf sorcerer who is 'effective' with it. The answer to that is "make something other than a dwarf sorcerer"

How can it be any clearer?

That is clear. If someone expects for all races to be equal when making class _____ they just have to accept that it won't happen, but I think we both agree that a decent ____ can be made with almost any race assuming the class itself is decently designed.


15 pb dwarf sorcerer

str -9
con 13(15)
dex 10
int 10
wis 10(12)
cha 17(15)

15 is a decent starting stat, and he has 14 con to give him decent hit points.


Crayfish Hora wrote:


A wizard starting at level 1, with either 15 point buy, or 20, or 25 point buy, will have a 20 intelligence regardless.

Not really.

You only make that 20 possible with certain races and even then it involves buying an 18 which actually cost 17 points meaning every other stat is likely to be a 10 or lower to include con.

Your experience may be different from mine, but having a low con leads to death, and I have seen characters die at exactly the con needed and saved at 1 hit point away from death.


I'm just going to make an interesting observation. I've been reading this thread since it started up, and well, I've seen all these arguments before.

"Which do you prefer?
3d6 in order
or 4d6 drop the lowest, arrange as desired"

Ultimately as each generation of game comes to pass these questions pop up. Do you want higher or lower Power? Even if that difference is low numbers wise? An overwhelming number will always say "higher" while a vocal few will say "lower" and it will boil down in most cases to "I like higher because then I can do anything and feel amazing." and "I prefer lower because I like the "zero to hero" story / it makes sense for the world and my verisimilitude."

The important thing is: No one is wrong. Nope, not even then.

A higher point buy (20, 25) will allow for more diverse race choices, and more varied characters who can ultimately do more than one thing. However, this is a false statement as those with good system mastery and a near encyclopedic knowledge of the game don't need these to do that. But it does set a lower bar for the average player.

A lower point buy (15) will lead to harder choices, and quite often your race will need to fit your class for the most optimization. But this low of a point buy won't stop your character from being interesting. That's on you as a roleplayer. Nor will using this mean anyone will be dead weight in a team. If a GM is playing an AP as it's written that includes the "bad" tactics written in the stat blocks. If you're doing homebrew, maybe the DM who sets this up should limit the npcs and monsters to a 10 point buy if they have players who aren't tactically sound. If they are good at tactics and working as a team then the GM can step it up.

I have GM'ed many a module and tried to GM quite a few APs with various set ups.

15 point buy Rise of the Runelords. The only time it got hard was with a certain low level demon in book 1. This ended at book 1 due to IRL.

20 point buy Carrion Crown. I ran this mostly as written and the party curb stomped most things up until the second act of book 2 before everyone had to stop playing due to IRL issues and schedule conflicts.

15 point buy, but I gave away extra feats in Kingmaker AND I'm adding mythic. Things are going well. The party realizes it needs to work together, though the beginning was rough and we've had 3 deaths. We are still in book 1.

4d8, re-roll 1s, drop the lowest, Gestalt Hell's Vengeance. This is a blast for the players but I've had to so far up the ante on every encounter I run. We actually got to a point where they couldn't come up with a solution to the final dungeon in book 1. Not because they weren't powerful enough, they had stopped thinking creatively and I did smart tactics. Why would a complex set in a stand of giant trees leave ladders and ropes down for intruders to climb?

Liberty's Edge

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I gave a 10 pt buy and then did a primary stat boost every 3rd, and a secondary stat boost every 3rd (but at different levels.)

The biggest mistake GMs make, imho (been a dungeon master since 1977), is to give something they can't later take away without player resentment. They need to take it away, or modify it because its too hard to keep up with player optimization, so the GM finds himself being a yes man and there is little challenge in the campaign.

That said, I'd absolutely encourage a 10 or even 15 point buy because it takes the focus off the stats, encourages teamwork, and makes the campaign more thrilling. Not for your power gamer types, but I don't like to game with those anyway. Not anymore anyway, after having seen the worst of it in Pathfinder Society convention tables. I love Pathfinder Society, by the way. But when my white witch gunslinger fires 10 pistol shots in one round with her hair, you have to ask, when does power creep and over-the-top builds ruin the game for others? I encourage teamwork.


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Sliska Zafir wrote:


That said, I'd absolutely encourage a 10 or even 15 point buy because it takes the focus off the stats, encourages teamwork, and makes the campaign more thrilling.

I've run for at least one group where teamwork was not the word of the day ever. Some people also optimized harder when faced with restrictions, but are more likely to put some resources into flavor if given additional points. I would say your assessment works depending on the group, and is not an across the board truth.

Quote:

Not for your power gamer types, but I don't like to game with those anyway. Not anymore anyway, after having seen the worst of it in Pathfinder Society convention tables. I love Pathfinder Society, by the way. But when my white witch gunslinger fires 10 pistol shots in one round with her hair, you have to ask, when does power creep and over-the-top builds ruin the game for others? I encourage teamwork.

Some power gamers do cooperate, and that can actually make it harder to GM than when they only worry about spotlight time. You could have had a powerful summoner casting haste on that gunslinger as an example.

Also if that witch was using Prehensile hair it can not use weapons.


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Consider me puzzled about how player cooperation has anything to do with statistics. Just a priori there would be two reasons that people cooperate: first because roleplaying games are a cooperative endeavor, and "want to work together with friends to tell a story" is why they show up; secondly because working together is the only way to get past a given challenge.

Though in my experience GMing (only since 1989, but still considerable) the only players I've ever had that had an issue with cooperative play were people who were uneasy with the social situation at the table (i.e. they were shy, felt vulnerable, and didn't want to open up). The solution to getting those people to work together with others has nothing to do with their character's stats (though, potentially they might feel less anxious if their character were more adept). But most people I've played with are just going to work together with other players because that's why they're there.

Regarding challenge though, it's not vastly more difficult to challenge players with a 10 point buy than it is with a 25 point buy. I have managed to appropriately challenge players in a campaign where stats were generated by "write down whatever you want." The only real difference will be that the 10 point characters will be challenged by more random things (hard to pass a variety of skill checks when both the cleric and the fighter dumped INT). But "can't pass a skill check" isn't exactly the fun kind of challenge. Honestly some of the most effective challenges I've seen at getting people to work together were things that involved virtually no appeal to statistics or mechanics at all. If you pose a dilemma to the players where they have to solve a mystery or figure out what's going on or figure out which of the available options is the least worst, people will often get involved in constructive intraparty behavior that combat probably would not.

Sczarni

wraithstrike wrote:
Crayfish Hora wrote:


A wizard starting at level 1, with either 15 point buy, or 20, or 25 point buy, will have a 20 intelligence regardless.

Not really.

You only make that 20 possible with certain races and even then it involves buying an 18 which actually cost 17 points meaning every other stat is likely to be a 10 or lower to include con.

Your experience may be different from mine, but having a low con leads to death, and I have seen characters die at exactly the con needed and saved at 1 hit point away from death.

No need to dump con, as I already suggested. Just Charisma and Strength, stats you probably weren't going to use anyway. If you like Con, over say, Dex, it can easily be a 14. I prefer my con to be high, myself.

And I completely forgot that other races even exist beyond human. You're right, they do, of course they do. But the non-special raced wizards will probably put the +2 into intelligence and its highly likely that they'll have 20 in the only stat they really need.

Dark Archive

ryric wrote:
Yondu wrote:

OK I've heard all what you said on 15 points buy, the balance, the challenge, how it is OP to have a 25 PB character.

Let's face the reality of figures :
I want to have a fighter in heavy armor making manoeuvers, I need 13 in intelligence so 3 points less, I have 12 points to add in physical attributes, I have two choices putting the remaining points in related characteritics, which make me a bad manoeuver fighter due to Strength or Dexterity of a Garden Snail...I want to make a monk, with meditation, so I need to have at least, 13 in wisdom, even more to more options, so the same issue to split my 12 points in other stats if I want Stunning Fist, I have to put more points in Dexterity...
If you are MAD with a 15 PB, you don't have many options on your character.
As PB encourage to have standarized characters, especially on MAD Classes, a 15 is even more a point as you are forced to dump to have something usable in play.

15 PB human fighter I played all the way through Carrion Crown:

S16(18) D12 C12 I13 W8 CH10
By the 5th adventure the GM thought he was a bit OP. He was taking out CR-appropriate foes in a single round of full attacks.

Monk is a little trickier, you'd probably want to dump Int and Cha if you really need the other stats.
Could maybe go:
S14 D15 C10 I8 W15 Ch8...before racials.
Though I admit I haven't tried such a build.

As a quick build, I threw together the following for a 15 point buy human monk

Base attributes
Strength 13
Dex 16 (+2 racial from dual talented)
Con 12
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 16 (+2 racial from dual talented)
Charisma 10

With that array you start with a decent unarmored 16 AC, have enough strength to pick up power attack if you want, and have no penalties to any skills or saves. Or with dropping charisma down to 7 you can get Strength raised to 15. Or raise Int for more skill points. Or raise Con for more hit points.

Dark Archive

Doomed Hero wrote:

15 Points means lost of Single Attribute Dependent characters. It lends itself to a "classic" gaming feel. You're going to see a lot of frail wizards, two-handed Barbarians, non-combat Clerics, and people trying (and failing) to play Rogues, Monks, two-weapon characters, and other builds that require more than one good stat.

Wait, WHAT?! Since when are clerics "non-combat"? They wear heavy armor for a freaking reason, you know.


It's nice for non-important NPCs.


Kahel Stormbender wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:

15 Points means lost of Single Attribute Dependent characters. It lends itself to a "classic" gaming feel. You're going to see a lot of frail wizards, two-handed Barbarians, non-combat Clerics, and people trying (and failing) to play Rogues, Monks, two-weapon characters, and other builds that require more than one good stat.

Wait, WHAT?! Since when are clerics "non-combat"? They wear heavy armor for a freaking reason, you know.

Doomed Hero is referring to caster clerics, possibly bad touch clerics, and other clerics who don't wade into melee or try to do lots of physical harm. And remember clerics only get medium armor proficiency base in Pathfinder, so it can be understandable that the cleric won't want to be on the front line.


Gauss wrote:

{. . .}

And as I pointed out earlier in this thread, that is actually not the case. Even with 15pb and a MAD character you can easily meet the requirements.

Level 1: 14+2(racial) = 16.
Level 4: 14+2(racial)+1(level) = 17
Level 8: 14+2(racial)+2(level) = 18
Level 12: 14+2(racial)+3(level) = 19

That will meet the requirements of just about any feat and that doesn't even include things like magic items bumping up your ability scores.

Simply put, 15pb doesn't make a difference to feat requirements.

That's all well and good if you don't also have to have other ability scores high.


UnArcaneElection, please show me a build that requires two different ability scores with a 17 or higher as a feat prerequisite.

Generally, 13 or 15 is the requirement. Very few feats require higher than that. Having a 14 in 3 stats should easily meet that requirement when factoring in racials, levels, and equipment changes to the ability score.

Simply put, the idea that 15pb on a MAD character cannot meet feat pre-requisites is not true.


Without going into details, how about a build where you want to specialize in Two-Weapon Fighting and go up the Eldritch Heritage chain without having your Bloodline Powers delayed by up to 6 levels (VMC Sorcerer, I'm looking at you)? And be a Half-Orc (or harder yet, a full-blooded Orc) with enough Wisdom to take the Scent feat (Wisdom 13)? And have a few build points left over for Constitution, and not dump Strength, Intelligence, or Wisdom?

And using equipment bonuses to meat feat prerequisites (or for that matter spellcasting prerequisites) always bothered me -- I know that Rules As Written it's legal, and a fair fraction of posted builds depend upon this, but if you get hit with some antimagic effect or just suffer a serious theft, suddenly you're massively depowered (read crippled) instead of just inconvenienced. Besides, what if you don't live within convenient distance of a Lord Wal'de'Marts, and you can't get the ability score boosting equipment you want?


UnarcaneElection are you saying that a MAD character can't do well in an AP on 15 point buy or are you saying that the 15 PB character can't have several(2 or more) high(15 or better) scores?

If the issue is qualifying for feats that is not much of an issue.
15 point buy
dwarf inquisitor

Str 15(power attack)
Dex 13(combat reflexes)(first +2 physical belt = two weapon fighting)
Con 12(14)
Int 12(level 4= combat expertise)
Wis 12(14)
Cha 9(7)


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Naoki00 wrote:

Alright so I wasn't sure what to name this thread, but here goes.

Recently I was invited to play in a game of Rise of the Runelords in a new group with one of my existing friends, who mainly wanted me to join as I've played through most of the first parts of the AP and knew what to help him with. However things reached a snag when we got there and it
was explained during character creation that it was 15 point buy.

Now I've used point buy, but I almost can't imagine anything lower than 25. I asked the DM why he'd settled on that and politely explained that the game might not be for me. This launched into a discussion among all the other players (besides my friend) about why this was silly and made me really sound like some sort of power gamer. I wanted to come and share my own opinion on the matter as the topic was rather interesting to me, and I'd like to hear the thoughts of others on the topic in hopes of maybe coming around to the idea of playing in the game since despite the outcome, they did express hope I would reconsider.

Now I won't deny a certain preference for powerful characters, but it is less to do with power gaming and just what I'm coming to find from other forum posts is a vastly different mindset about the game. To me 15 point buy represents "unheroic" characters, average, normal, everyday people who happen to be thrust into a fantastic adventure. They usually have some manner of negative modifier or two, something that has always been a big deterrent to me, and some people seem to very much enjoy roleplaying these types of characters.

I however just never understood the appeal, after all the game is about fantasy and heroes aren't average people most of the time. 15 point buy feels...strange. The massive weaknesses in the character feel less like 'flaws' and more like plain old hindrances on the game. I don't often have any stat below a 12, mainly because I always imagined the heroes of the story are all just better then the rest in everyday aspects.

Hopefully I can bring...

i know i'm late to the discussion but here it goes.

I don't think 15 pb precludes power gaming, if anything it makes me more likely to do it. It restricts viable options and thus makes me want to play a strict wizard or fighter putting all my point buy into specifically where it's needed. It emphasizes SAD classes and discourages MAD ones.

25 pb? now I'm playing a paladin who focuses of throwing charge smite attacks with improvised potato weapons...

tbch, i don't use point buy, EXCEPT for new people, then I use 20 pb. if you;re wondering how I come up with a fair system after people are no longer new? I just let them choose their own stats, it doesn't really overpower anything since people already have maxed out basically what they want with maybe 1-2 modifier difference.

seriously a wizard with 20 int and 10 in everything else versus a wizard with 20 int and 18 everything else isn't that much different in power...

I mean, you haven't lived until you had a cleric running around as buff jesus.

oh yeah, we also completely ignore racials. full choice of 3-20.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Bard of Ages wrote:

I'm just going to make an interesting observation. I've been reading this thread since it started up, and well, I've seen all these arguments before.

"Which do you prefer?
3d6 in order
or 4d6 drop the lowest, arrange as desired"

Ultimately as each generation of game comes to pass these questions pop up. Do you want higher or lower Power? Even if that difference is low numbers wise? An overwhelming number will always say "higher" while a vocal few will say "lower" and it will boil down in most cases to "I like higher because then I can do anything and feel amazing." and "I prefer lower because I like the "zero to hero" story / it makes sense for the world and my verisimilitude."

The important thing is: No one is wrong. Nope, not even then.

A higher point buy (20, 25) will allow for more diverse race choices, and more varied characters who can ultimately do more than one thing. However, this is a false statement as those with good system mastery and a near encyclopedic knowledge of the game don't need these to do that. But it does set a lower bar for the average player.

A lower point buy (15) will lead to harder choices, and quite often your race will need to fit your class for the most optimization. But this low of a point buy won't stop your character from being interesting. That's on you as a roleplayer. Nor will using this mean anyone will be dead weight in a team. If a GM is playing an AP as it's written that includes the "bad" tactics written in the stat blocks. If you're doing homebrew, maybe the DM who sets this up should limit the npcs and monsters to a 10 point buy if they have players who aren't tactically sound. If they are good at tactics and working as a team then the GM can step it up.

I have GM'ed many a module and tried to GM quite a few APs with various set ups.

15 point buy Rise of the Runelords. The only time it got hard was with a certain low level demon in book 1. This ended at book 1 due to IRL.

20 point buy Carrion Crown. I ran this mostly as written and the...

and then there's me, saying

"ANARCHY! ANARCHY! ABOLISH THE SYSTEM!"

like to go into more context, we've effectively moved past the actual scores mattering much and only really care about the modifiers, except probably to get the prerequisites for a single feat for any given stat...

so without removing them entirely just let people grab the things they want without the complicated hoops to jump through...

I just played a wizard with 20 int and 5 wisdom and charisma, it just doesn't matter much.

also a played a fighter with 12 int and wisdom and 14 whole charisma, it was astonishing.


wraithstrike wrote:

UnarcaneElection are you saying that a MAD character can't do well in an AP on 15 point buy or are you saying that the 15 PB character can't have several(2 or more) high(15 or better) scores?

If the issue is qualifying for feats that is not much of an issue.
15 point buy
dwarf inquisitor

Str 15(power attack)
Dex 13(combat reflexes)(first +2 physical belt = two weapon fighting)
Con 12(14)
Int 12(level 4= combat expertise)
Wis 12(14)
Cha 9(7)

No Eldritch Heritage for you (dumped Charisma) . . . By the way, in most cases(*) I would recommend Dirty Fighting instead of Combat Expertise (at least let you off the hook for needing 13 Intelligence, unless you need that for something else anyway).

(*)Unless you actually intend to make use of Combat Expertise and aren't just paying it as a feat tax.

MAD characters aren't impossible in a 15 point buy (otherwise something would have had to be done about it by now, more than just PFS going over to 20 point buy), but the number of possible builds (including some of the flavorful ones) is limited relative to what you get in a 20 point buy.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

Without going into details, how about a build where you want to specialize in Two-Weapon Fighting and go up the Eldritch Heritage chain without having your Bloodline Powers delayed by up to 6 levels (VMC Sorcerer, I'm looking at you)? And be a Half-Orc (or harder yet, a full-blooded Orc) with enough Wisdom to take the Scent feat (Wisdom 13)? And have a few build points left over for Constitution, and not dump Strength, Intelligence, or Wisdom?

And using equipment bonuses to meat feat prerequisites (or for that matter spellcasting prerequisites) always bothered me -- I know that Rules As Written it's legal, and a fair fraction of posted builds depend upon this, but if you get hit with some antimagic effect or just suffer a serious theft, suddenly you're massively depowered (read crippled) instead of just inconvenienced. Besides, what if you don't live within convenient distance of a Lord Wal'de'Marts, and you can't get the ability score boosting equipment you want?

So lets answer that:

STR: 14
DEX: 13+2(race)
CON: 12
INT: 10
WIS: 13
CHA: 12

Now, prerequisites:
TWF is DEX 15@BAB1, 17@BAB6, 19@BAB11
Eldritch Heritage is CHA 13@LVL3, 15@LVL11, 17@LVL17
Keen Scent is WIS 13@1

Note: If you went the full dexterity route this would be an even better build. The 5pts put into Strength can be put into the other ability scores or, if you want to qualify for Power Attack you can drop STR to 13 and increase DEX to 14.

Level 1, qualify for TWF and for Keen Scent @level 3 (or ELdritch Heritage @3 by swapping Wis/Cha)
Level 4, bump CHA by +1, now you qualify for Eldritch Heritage.
Level 6, +2 Belt of Dex, qualify for Improved TWF.
Level 11, +2 Headband of Cha has long since been available, qualify for Imp. Eldritch Heritage. Also, +4 Belt of Dex is long since available by level 11, qualify for Gr. TWF.
Level 17, +4 Headband of Cha has long since been available, qualify for Gr. Eldritch Heritage.
Note: Level increases at 8, 12, 16, and 20 have not been assigned and can go into Strength or any desired ability score.

Your statement about magic items not being available is not part of the game system. The game assumes things are available at certain points. Specifically, a Small city will have a 75% chance of your +2 ability boosters while a Metropolis will have a 75% chance of having your +4 ability boosters.

You make the comment about walmart but the fact is if that is your problem then the problem is not the 15pb but how you choose to respond to magic item availability and how the game presumes certain items are available. That would be a different discussion entirely.


Klorox wrote:
RDM42 wrote:

No. someone is saying fifteen point buy is bad because you can't make, say, a, dwarf sorcerer who is 'effective' with it. The answer to that is "make something other than a dwarf sorcerer"

How can it be any clearer?

Well, when a Dwarf sorcerer is what I want to play, I don't like the PB to be an obstacle to that.

With that attitude the best method is just pick whatever stats you want. No attribute method is likely to get you as high as you want. So why bother? Just pick the scores you want or need.

Dwarf Sorcerer
Str: 10
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 20

makes a nice dwarf sorcerer.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

If you feel that you "need" a dwarf sorcerer with an 18 or 20 in their casting stat:

Dwarf sorcerer (wildblooded; Celestial/Empyreal)
8 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Con (+2 race), 12 Int, 18 Wis (+2 race), 8 Cha (-2 race)
or
8 Str, 12 Dex, 12 Con (+2 race), 12 Int, 20 Wis (+2 race), 5 Cha (-2 race)

Now we have a dwarf sorcerer that is as "effective" as a sorcerer of another race that can put a +2 to Cha.


I think legitimately the complaints about "with a low point buy, you can't play a [race] [class]" are ultimately complaints about racial stat modifiers not point buys.

Like if Dwarves didn't have a penalty to Charisma, they would make fine (non-Empyreal sorcerers). Probably an easier sell to get your GM to "do racial stat modifiers differently" than to up the point buy.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think legitimately the complaints about "with a low point buy, you can't play a [race] [class]" are ultimately complaints about racial stat modifiers not point buys.

Like if Dwarves didn't have a penalty to Charisma, they would make fine (non-Empyreal sorcerers). Probably an easier sell to get your GM to "do racial stat modifiers differently" than to up the point buy.

+1

Dark Archive

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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think legitimately the complaints about "with a low point buy, you can't play a [race] [class]" are ultimately complaints about racial stat modifiers not point buys.

Like if Dwarves didn't have a penalty to Charisma, they would make fine (non-Empyreal sorcerers). Probably an easier sell to get your GM to "do racial stat modifiers differently" than to up the point buy.

Coming from spending years playing 2nd edition AD&D as my game of choice... the very idea of a dwarf wizard or sorcerer still seems weird to me.


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I mean, though, when I started playing "Elf" was a class. Sometimes things get better through subsequent revisions.

If it helps, try playing a Dwarf wizard who is a dedicated crafter/buffer. You can keep INT low at character generation (12-14ish works) because nothing you do has DCs and you can make your own headbands. "Dwarves make the best magic stuff" is a trope that dates back to Norse Mythology.


The actual legitimate answers about why it could be appealing to some preferences was given early on the first page.

Find a groove that works for you,mind have fun!

So, instead of that serious nonsense, I'm going to answer the question in the title in a relatively silly way.

Title wrote:
15 point buy, why does it appeal to you?

Because I'm going to give the players the advanced template or it's a horror game (and they're probably going to get that anyway).

:)


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Personally, I prefer using 20 point buy. It gives me a little more flexibility without making me too powerful. I don't have to work on squeezing out the array just right like I would with 15 point buy. I can make a ton of effective characters with 15 point buy. I almost always start with the elite array and then make adjustments from there. When I post builds on the boards (which I haven't done in a very long time) I almost exclusively use the elite array because it's the basic assumption for the game (15 points) and it's balanced just fine.

As a player, I like 20 points so I can have a little more flexibility. As a GM, I like 20 points because I want my players to have a little more flexibility. All that being said, even when we roll and can have an effective point value in the 30s, the characters are still facing dangerous enemies without the GM having to make any adjustments to the encounters that we know of. He may be adjusting hit points or giving them a free feat, but I don't know for sure. What I do know is that we still struggle with some encounters in the pre-written adventures.


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wraithstrike wrote:
Crayfish Hora wrote:


A wizard starting at level 1, with either 15 point buy, or 20, or 25 point buy, will have a 20 intelligence regardless.

Not really.

You only make that 20 possible with certain races and even then it involves buying an 18 which actually cost 17 points meaning every other stat is likely to be a 10 or lower to include con.

Your experience may be different from mine, but having a low con leads to death, and I have seen characters die at exactly the con needed and saved at 1 hit point away from death.

When I play a wizard at 15 point buy, I dump charisma and strength. That gives me 23 points to work with. 6 after int. Which I split between con and dex. I don't have to put con at 10 or lower.


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I feel like "how you feel the right level of point buy" sort of correlates closely to "how you feel about dumping stats." Which is to say, lower point buys are more acceptable the more comfortable you are with dumping stats for your characters.

Certainly, you can dump stats at any point buy (short of a 102 point buy), but the problem is more pronounced with lower PB. But some people feel obligated to make their stats reflect their conception of their character, which would be at odds with dumping certain stats that are mechanically beneficial to leave low.

So while certainly you could end up with two 20s with a 20 point buy if you dump every other stat (this works for kineticists, I guess), I prefer higher point buys because it lets me leave the low stats at 10. Something like a 20 PB where you don't get bonus points for more than one stat below 10 seems like the sweet spot for me. When I give out arrays I almost never give any with stats below 8 and never more than 2 stats below 10.

Verdant Wheel

I'm starting my PCs with a 15 point buy.

That grows to 20pts by 5th level, 29pts by 9th level, and 42pts by 13th level, where the AP ends.

Modest beginnings that support MAD characters better without punishing SAD characters and overall encourages well-roundedness.

Expanded Point Buy Table:

Spoiler:

STAT / PTS
19 / 21pts
20 / 26pts
21 / 31pts
22 / 37pts
23 / 43pts
24 / 50pts

Verdant Wheel

Which makes me wonder, out of sheer curiosity, does anyone here play 40- or 50- or 60-pt buys?


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rainzax wrote:
Which makes me wonder, out of sheer curiosity, does anyone here play 40- or 50- or 60-pt buys?

Last Pathfinder game I ran was 16, 16, 16, 16, 13, 10

43 PB in a static array


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rainzax wrote:
Which makes me wonder, out of sheer curiosity, does anyone here play 40- or 50- or 60-pt buys?

Beyond a certain point the "write down whatever stats best describe your conception of your character" approach is preferable to enormous point buys. It puts the focus less on mechanical optimization and more towards thinking about who your character is and how that can translate to mechanics. If your players aren't prone to thinking "I'm good at everything" is a an interesting character, you're unlikely to get point buys that high.

Dark Archive

rainzax wrote:
Which makes me wonder, out of sheer curiosity, does anyone here play 40- or 50- or 60-pt buys?

Yea gods, no!

Unless it's a game like Mutants & Masterminds, in which case a 40, 50, or 60 point buy is actually rather low.

EDIT:

If 25 points is "epic fantasy", the realms where the heroes are as far beyond mortal man as Herakles, then I shudder to think how unbalanced 60 point build group would be.


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kyrt-ryder wrote:
rainzax wrote:
Which makes me wonder, out of sheer curiosity, does anyone here play 40- or 50- or 60-pt buys?

Last Pathfinder game I ran was 16, 16, 16, 16, 13, 10

43 PB in a static array

IF I were to do this again, I believe I would instead offer a simple 40 point buy... with the rule of no stats under 10 before race, and no stats over 18 after race.

Liberty's Edge

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I usually go with 25 point-buy, but only one stat below 10 (and that one no lower than 8), and none above 16 (before racial mods).

That actually winds up with similar distributions in, say, your top 2 or 3 stats to 15 point-buy for martials, anyway, and powers up MAD characters a little while powering down SAD characters a bit (since they can't get a 20).

It's worked out very well historically.


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johnlocke90 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Crayfish Hora wrote:


A wizard starting at level 1, with either 15 point buy, or 20, or 25 point buy, will have a 20 intelligence regardless.

Not really.

You only make that 20 possible with certain races and even then it involves buying an 18 which actually cost 17 points meaning every other stat is likely to be a 10 or lower to include con.

Your experience may be different from mine, but having a low con leads to death, and I have seen characters die at exactly the con needed and saved at 1 hit point away from death.

When I play a wizard at 15 point buy, I dump charisma and strength. That gives me 23 points to work with. 6 after int. Which I split between con and dex. I don't have to put con at 10 or lower.

I try to avoid dumping too many stats because monster abilities and poison can reduce stats, but you are correct, and if the GM doesn't use those types of encounters there is not much of a risk involved.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I feel like "how you feel the right level of point buy" sort of correlates closely to "how you feel about dumping stats." Which is to say, lower point buys are more acceptable the more comfortable you are with dumping stats for your characters.

Certainly, you can dump stats at any point buy (short of a 102 point buy), but the problem is more pronounced with lower PB. But some people feel obligated to make their stats reflect their conception of their character, which would be at odds with dumping certain stats that are mechanically beneficial to leave low.

So while certainly you could end up with two 20s with a 20 point buy if you dump every other stat (this works for kineticists, I guess), I prefer higher point buys because it lets me leave the low stats at 10. Something like a 20 PB where you don't get bonus points for more than one stat below 10 seems like the sweet spot for me. When I give out arrays I almost never give any with stats below 8 and never more than 2 stats below 10.

I find that going 15 to 20 benefits my wizard a lot. I get to put my dex and con up to 14. Going to 25 and I would bump wisdom up to 14 too.

At 30 point buy I might consider raising strength and charisma up to 8 though.


wraithstrike wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Crayfish Hora wrote:


A wizard starting at level 1, with either 15 point buy, or 20, or 25 point buy, will have a 20 intelligence regardless.

Not really.

You only make that 20 possible with certain races and even then it involves buying an 18 which actually cost 17 points meaning every other stat is likely to be a 10 or lower to include con.

Your experience may be different from mine, but having a low con leads to death, and I have seen characters die at exactly the con needed and saved at 1 hit point away from death.

When I play a wizard at 15 point buy, I dump charisma and strength. That gives me 23 points to work with. 6 after int. Which I split between con and dex. I don't have to put con at 10 or lower.
I try to avoid dumping too many stats because monster abilities and poison can reduce stats, but you are correct, and if the GM doesn't use those types of encounters there is not much of a risk involved.

A potion of delay poison is 50 gold. So is a potion of lesser restoration. That covers most ability damage in the game.

And while those monsters do exist, they aren't common. Certainly less common than monsters you will have to use intelligence against as a wizard or constitution as anyone.


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johnlocke90 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I feel like "how you feel the right level of point buy" sort of correlates closely to "how you feel about dumping stats." Which is to say, lower point buys are more acceptable the more comfortable you are with dumping stats for your characters.

Certainly, you can dump stats at any point buy (short of a 102 point buy), but the problem is more pronounced with lower PB. But some people feel obligated to make their stats reflect their conception of their character, which would be at odds with dumping certain stats that are mechanically beneficial to leave low.

So while certainly you could end up with two 20s with a 20 point buy if you dump every other stat (this works for kineticists, I guess), I prefer higher point buys because it lets me leave the low stats at 10. Something like a 20 PB where you don't get bonus points for more than one stat below 10 seems like the sweet spot for me. When I give out arrays I almost never give any with stats below 8 and never more than 2 stats below 10.

I find that going 15 to 20 benefits my wizard a lot. I get to put my dex and con up to 14. Going to 25 and I would bump wisdom up to 14 too.

At 30 point buy I might consider raising strength and charisma up to 8 though.

15pb wizard:

13 [17+2 =19] Intelligence, becomes 20 at level 4
05 [14] dex
05 [14] con
+4 [07] Cha
+4 [07] Str
00 [10] Wis


PossibleCabbage wrote:
rainzax wrote:
Which makes me wonder, out of sheer curiosity, does anyone here play 40- or 50- or 60-pt buys?
Beyond a certain point the "write down whatever stats best describe your conception of your character" approach is preferable to enormous point buys. It puts the focus less on mechanical optimization and more towards thinking about who your character is and how that can translate to mechanics. If your players aren't prone to thinking "I'm good at everything" is a an interesting character, you're unlikely to get point buys that high.

Yeah I totally agree. like I said before if you need 30+ PB to express your character then just discard all generation methods and pick what you want, it is WAY easier and far less limiting than (no more than this and no less than this).

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