Charon's Little Helper |
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johnlocke90 wrote:By that logic, I'd assume you only let people play level 1 commoners?kyrt-ryder wrote:If you have to rework most of your fights past a certain level to deal with a specific class, that class is OP.johnlocke90 wrote:Gunslinger is widely considered one of the most OP classes in the game.No, no it is not. It is somewhat widely hated both for thematic reasons and because it is slightly disruptive with Touch Attacks when Pathfinder (and 3E before it) artificially inflate monster AC with ridiculous Natural Armor.
Possibly broken in a systemic way, but hardly overpowered when you look at them next to 4 classes from the CRB.
Yay strawman! We hadn't seen one of those yet in this thread.
Clearly not what was meant - but attempts to make him look foolish. Woot!
Obviously it's actually because the touch AC mechanic drastically shifts the game's balance away from making high AC from armor/nat armor effective, which shifts the effective CR of many potential foes quite a bit.
Tyinyk |
johnlocke90 wrote:By that logic, I'd assume you only let people play level 1 commoners?kyrt-ryder wrote:If you have to rework most of your fights past a certain level to deal with a specific class, that class is OP.johnlocke90 wrote:Gunslinger is widely considered one of the most OP classes in the game.No, no it is not. It is somewhat widely hated both for thematic reasons and because it is slightly disruptive with Touch Attacks when Pathfinder (and 3E before it) artificially inflate monster AC with ridiculous Natural Armor.
Possibly broken in a systemic way, but hardly overpowered when you look at them next to 4 classes from the CRB.
I think he means because the higher in level you get, the lower and lower average creature's touch AC gets. A gunslinger belt with any level of competence will only miss on a misfire at a certain point, and that point's not very high.
EDIT: My evidence.
Kahel Stormbender |
And? Many damage dealing spells go off touch AC too. And a kineticist who uses energy blasts also hit via touch AC. An aerokinetic with electric blast and built right could do so from 240 feet away while doing a lot more damage then that gunslinger.
And yet I keep seeing people claim kineticists are underpowered. So how is the gunslinger over powered?
Tyinyk |
They're not, never said they were. I also don't think kineticists are underpowered.
Gunslingers are however, good. Because they're a martial who's basically guaranteed to hit, so they can take every little thing that brings down their attack roll in favor of damage bonuses, really letting them pile it on.
Kahel Stormbender |
They're not, never said they were. I also don't think kineticists are underpowered.
Gunslingers are however, good. Because they're a martial who's basically guaranteed to hit, so they can take every little thing that brings down their attack roll in favor of damage bonuses, really letting them pile it on.
I know you weren't saying it. But many people here on the forums do seem to hold that opinion.
QuidEst |
And? Many damage dealing spells go off touch AC too. And a kineticist who uses energy blasts also hit via touch AC. An aerokinetic with electric blast and built right could do so from 240 feet away while doing a lot more damage then that gunslinger.
And yet I keep seeing people claim kineticists are underpowered. So how is the gunslinger over powered?
I think that at those higher levels, Gunslinger can do more damage, thanks to all the extra shots ranged combat feats offer. But Aerokineticist deals with resistances, immunities, and spell resistance, plus has a lower BAB, while Gunslinger only deals with DR, solved by using Clustered Shots. The GM has a lot of ways to handle a Kineticist that's stronger than the rest of the party, but it's difficult to balance against a strong Gunslinger at high levels without making things really rough for any martials.
Charon's Little Helper |
And? Many damage dealing spells go off touch AC too. And a kineticist who uses energy blasts also hit via touch AC. An aerokinetic with electric blast and built right could do so from 240 feet away while doing a lot more damage then that gunslinger.
And yet I keep seeing people claim kineticists are underpowered. So how is the gunslinger over powered?
Okay - that's an argument that you can make. (I actually don't think that gunslingers are especially OP, though they have a low power floor. Kineticists are fine too - and I believe are mostly considered underpowered by those comparing them to full casters or who don't consider how all of their moving parts stack.)
However, please don't do yourself and everyone else the disservice of arguing with logical fallacies such as the strawman. Fallacies bug me and I tend to point them out whether or not I agree with the point attempting to be made with them.
kyrt-ryder |
kyrt-ryder wrote:That's starting to get into the logic of "martials can't be broken because casters exist"johnlocke90 wrote:Gunslinger is widely considered one of the most OP classes in the game.No, no it is not. It is somewhat widely hated both for thematic reasons and because it is slightly disruptive with Touch Attacks when Pathfinder (and 3E before it) artificially inflate monster AC with ridiculous Natural Armor.
Possibly broken in a systemic way, but hardly overpowered when you look at them next to 4 classes from the CRB.
You're talking to someone who has GM'd for Uberchargers with Wraithstrike [touch attacks] dealing over a thousand points of damage per charge, Swift Hunters that average over 200 damage per round after accounting for Attack vs AC, while moving around via 3.5 Manyshot, Hood Dragoons dropping from the sky for massive damage.
Yet I can guarantee you I find it FAR easier to challenge such characters than your average Full Caster who selects a variety of good spells and applies them according to the situation.
Literally all the damage in the world is 'just damage.' It can certainly throw off expectations, but it's only one piece of the puzzle, only one target of many.
Kahel Stormbender |
Kahel Stormbender wrote:And? Many damage dealing spells go off touch AC too. And a kineticist who uses energy blasts also hit via touch AC. An aerokinetic with electric blast and built right could do so from 240 feet away while doing a lot more damage then that gunslinger.
And yet I keep seeing people claim kineticists are underpowered. So how is the gunslinger over powered?
Okay - that's an argument that you can make. (I actually don't think that gunslingers are especially OP, though they have a low power floor. Kineticists are fine too - and I believe are mostly considered underpowered by those comparing them to full casters or who don't consider how all of their moving parts stack.)
However, please don't do yourself and everyone else the disservice of arguing with logical fallacies such as the strawman. Fallacies bug me and I tend to point them out whether or not I agree with the point attempting to be made with them.
Dude, my level 1 commoner comment was sarcasm. It was intended to draw attention to the fact that any class can change how the encounters need to be set up to provide a challenge. A bombing alchemist requires groups that aren't clustered and larger battle fields. Highly mobile melee types need more cluttered battle fields that limit mobility. Casters can bring a wide range of things to account for. Archers and gunslingers require battle fields that have more cover provided. A 'diplomancer' requires you to plan ahead as well for any social situations.
It's not just gunslingers that the GM needs to take into account.
PK the Dragon |
Gunslingers are decent at doing their one thing, which I guess is decent for a martial, but only tier 4 at best. Certainly not OP.
Even ignoring full casters, I'd consider barbarians, paladins, and rangers better tbqh (as well as every level 6 caster). All three classes may have a harder time hitting most enemies (the degree of which is honestly debatable given how accuracy scales), but otherwise bring more to both battles and non-battle challenges than Gunslingers do. Which is not to say that a Gunslinger is bad. Just... not OP.
Chess Pwn |
And? Many damage dealing spells go off touch AC too. And a kineticist who uses energy blasts also hit via touch AC. An aerokinetic with electric blast and built right could do so from 240 feet away while doing a lot more damage then that gunslinger.
And yet I keep seeing people claim kineticists are underpowered. So how is the gunslinger over powered?
I doubt that the kineticist is doing more damage on a full attack than a well built gunslinger.
Johnnycat93 |
Johnnycat93 wrote:johnlocke90 wrote:I'd honestly consider Gunslinger for a spot on the top-5 worst classes. There are times you'd be better off just paying people off instead of shooting them with how damn expensive being a Gunslinger is.
Gunslinger is widely considered one of the most OP classes in the game. If your gunslinger was often worse than useless, it was played poorly.100 bullets are only 10 gold, that hardly seems cost-prohibitive. The price of a good gun is about the same as any other martial's +1 weapon, but you're attacking touch AC. All pretty reasonable.
I'm going to second that if you haven't seen a gunslinger be terribly effective, you've just seen poorly-built gunslingers. We have one in our Iron Gods campaign, and she easily tops the DPR of the group, and that's competing with a grenadier alchemist and a goliath druid. (And no, she's not even using any of the technological weapons, because a pistol is better for her build.)
Normal bullets are still twice as expensive as an arrow after crafting (not something that every Gunslinger has time to do while adventuring, but that's an aside). However, I consider the standard to be Alchemical Cartridges and those cost 6 gold per bullet after craft. On top of that, Guns are one of the most expensive weapons in the game with the pistol starting at 1,000 gp compared to a longbow which starts at 75. The Gunslinger better hope they never lose that starting firearm, because that much money hurts to have to spend.
For the class itself I really can't name any useful features. There are no deeds that I consider worthwhile and only a handful that are even decent. This is mostly do to the prohibitive nature of grit, as the class is encouraged to be blowing through grit in combat but then given pittance for an amount. Sure, it can be restored on the fly, but only with a crit (good luck) and killing/defeating an enemy in which case the fight would already be at the point that you don't need grit anymore. The errata for Signature Deed was the final nail in that coffin for me. Dex-to-damage could be interesting, but because you can get it in 3 Fighter levels I don't see the value. Nimble is useful, I guess, but not enough to take levels in it. I used to love the Pistolero, but again the nerf to Signature Deed killed it for me.
This is all compounded by the fact that guns are not a good weapon by any measure. They can hit touch AC, but that's something that is hugely, hugely overrated I think. They do the same damage as a Longbow, require a feat investment to be able to even consider full-attacking with (let alone all the feats you need if you're using Emerging Guns), can blow up on a misfire, and have practically no feat support. I honestly have no idea where people are coming from when they say guns are OP.
PK the Dragon |
Also worth noting that on full BAB classes, accuracy tends to outscale AC- even with Power Attack and Deadly Aim considered. Touch AC will get less and less important as characters grow in power. I have to wonder if some of the people who believe Gunslinger is OP primarily play in low level games where bypassing AC really can be super important?
That said, the class does have one advantage- you pretty much have everything you need from it by level 5. Which allows it to be combined with much more useful classes, like, say, Paladin. Or maybe even a 3/4 BAB class that could use the touch AC effect much more than a full BAB class.
But again... that still doesn't make the class OP. It's just an interesting option.
Charon's Little Helper |
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Also worth noting that on full BAB classes, accuracy tends to outscale AC- even with Power Attack and Deadly Aim considered. Touch AC will get less and less important as characters grow in power.
That's ignoring iterative attacks. While the primary attack becomes more accurate relative to ACs, the iteratives do not. Due to both that and the increased static damage besides them (PA/DA reduce accuracy which is % while adding static numerical damage) is why both are only very rarely useful on a full attack at level 16+, and usually not useful at 11+, even for someone with two-handed combat.
A gunslinger targeting touch attacks is essentially the sole exception to this because their accuracy, even with the final iterative, is nearly guaranteed to hit even when using Deadly Aim.
Charon's Little Helper |
Which is funny when you consider how wildly inaccurate early firearms were. Of course, when you're trying to hit the broadside of a barn from twenty feat, it's not hard.
They also have longbows with no accuracy penalties against moving targets up to 110ft. Accurately depicting real life isn't something that Pathfinder does well. :P
Kahel Stormbender |
But it was common practice to wait till you had a good chance to actually hit the target. Which was closer then people tend to think in modern times. While it's true there were a few sharp shooters who due to skill and weapon could reliably snipe enemy commanders from a distance, more often you had to let the enemy get fairly close to stand a chance of hitting someone. Then fall back because it's going to take time to reload.
Charon's Little Helper |
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Then fall back because it's going to take time to reload.
That part didn't really happen except for the skirmishers with rifles who were also hiding in the woods etc. Otherwise I mostly agree.
The troopers weren't firing at specific targets, they were firing at the mass of enemy troops.
Hence the redcoats' - "Ready, Level, Fire" as opposed to the version we're used to. But that was still used at up to 300 yards at which it could fire level (pretty much max under good conditions - some considered a "musket shot" to be as short as 240 yards). While much shorter than modern firearm accurate ranges, sometimes their inaccuracy is overstated in popular culture. (Though a single shooter would have to get lucky to hit a single target at that range.)
PK the Dragon |
PK the Dragon wrote:Also worth noting that on full BAB classes, accuracy tends to outscale AC- even with Power Attack and Deadly Aim considered. Touch AC will get less and less important as characters grow in power.That's ignoring iterative attacks. While the primary attack becomes more accurate relative to ACs, the iteratives do not. Due to both that and the increased static damage besides them (PA/DA reduce accuracy which is % while adding static numerical damage) is why both are only very rarely useful on a full attack at level 16+, and usually not useful at 11+, even for someone with two-handed combat.
A gunslinger targeting touch attacks is essentially the sole exception to this because their accuracy, even with the final iterative, is nearly guaranteed to hit even when using Deadly Aim.
Fair enough. I'll admit I overlooked the importance of the iterative attacks for a Gunslinger. I don't 100% agree with you, but you have a point and to argue further would involve math and would be ultimately pointless because you're mostly right.
But I mean, Gunslingers have strong damage output. There's definitely no argument there. I'd still take a class that is more useful in other areas over it- like Paladins, Rangers, and even Barbarians in some cases.
I still feel the best thing you can do to a Gunslinger is to take the first 5 levels and attach it to a better class.
Melkiador |
Interestingly I though there was a stand that no stat could be added more than once. I can't find it so I could be mis-remembering.
Technically, that only applies to bonuses. This is a resource. It's like how you can get channel from multiple sources and each source can benefit from your charisma.
Darksol the Painbringer |
Cat-thulhu wrote:Interestingly I though there was a stand that no stat could be added more than once. I can't find it so I could be mis-remembering.Technically, that only applies to bonuses. This is a resource. It's like how you can get channel from multiple sources and each source can benefit from your charisma.
They benefit because they are technically separate resources; if they were the same resource (as is the case with Grit/Luck/Panache, that treats them the same, and combines them into a singular resource), you're getting 1x Charisma modifier to your total resource, from 3 separate features.
Even if RAW would allow it to have 3x Charisma, I can assure you it's not intended based on FAQ publishings.
johnlocke90 |
Kahel Stormbender wrote:I think that at those higher levels, Gunslinger can do more damage, thanks to all the extra shots ranged combat feats offer. But Aerokineticist deals with resistances, immunities, and spell resistance, plus has a lower BAB, while Gunslinger only deals with DR, solved by using Clustered Shots. The GM has a lot of ways to handle a Kineticist that's stronger than the rest of the party, but it's difficult to balance against a strong Gunslinger at high levels without making things really rough for any martials.And? Many damage dealing spells go off touch AC too. And a kineticist who uses energy blasts also hit via touch AC. An aerokinetic with electric blast and built right could do so from 240 feet away while doing a lot more damage then that gunslinger.
And yet I keep seeing people claim kineticists are underpowered. So how is the gunslinger over powered?
For these reasons, comparing kineticists to Gunslingers is silly. They are hugely different classes.
Archer fighter would be a better comparison. Archers are generally considered extremely strong, and at higher levels gunslinger hits harder while targeting touch AC.
johnlocke90 |
Also worth noting that on full BAB classes, accuracy tends to outscale AC- even with Power Attack and Deadly Aim considered. Touch AC will get less and less important as characters grow in power. I have to wonder if some of the people who believe Gunslinger is OP primarily play in low level games where bypassing AC really can be super important?
That said, the class does have one advantage- you pretty much have everything you need from it by level 5. Which allows it to be combined with much more useful classes, like, say, Paladin. Or maybe even a 3/4 BAB class that could use the touch AC effect much more than a full BAB class.
But again... that still doesn't make the class OP. It's just an interesting option.
Not on iterative attacks. At level 16 its -15 AC for his 4th attack. -19 with Deadly Aim up. -21 with rapid and deadly. Thats huge for an archer or sword wielder, but when the Balor's touch AC is 20 and the dragons touch AC is 7, it won't matter for the gunslinger.
Thats what people miss when they say AC doesn't matter late game.
Charon's Little Helper |
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At level 16 its -15 AC for his 4th attack. -19 with Deadly Aim up. -21 with rapid and deadly.
Actually - it's -15/-20/-22 respectively - but it only strengthens the point you were making. (+16 BAB means an additional -4 in addition to the base -1 from Deadly Aim, adding 10 damage per shot.)
Bandw2 |
The trick's really simple, I find. As opposed to artificially giving them natural armor to raise their AC through the roof, change it to something like a deflection bonus. That way, the Gunslinger's still hitting a lower AC, but they're not aiming for an 8 all the time when they've got a +23.
the monsters have shaped armor plates OH GOD!
The Sideromancer |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Tyinyk wrote:The trick's really simple, I find. As opposed to artificially giving them natural armor to raise their AC through the roof, change it to something like a deflection bonus. That way, the Gunslinger's still hitting a lower AC, but they're not aiming for an 8 all the time when they've got a +23.the monsters have shaped armor plates OH GOD!
Over the NaN years since touch AC began being targeted, many creatures have evolved defences against it.
UnArcaneElection |
Bandw2 wrote:Over the NaN years since touch AC began being targeted, many creatures have evolved defences against it.Tyinyk wrote:The trick's really simple, I find. As opposed to artificially giving them natural armor to raise their AC through the roof, change it to something like a deflection bonus. That way, the Gunslinger's still hitting a lower AC, but they're not aiming for an 8 all the time when they've got a +23.the monsters have shaped armor plates OH GOD!
Evolved? I thought that in a fantasy world, the creatures had to be intelligently designed . . . .
The Sideromancer |
The Sideromancer wrote:Bandw2 wrote:Over the NaN years since touch AC began being targeted, many creatures have evolved defences against it.Tyinyk wrote:The trick's really simple, I find. As opposed to artificially giving them natural armor to raise their AC through the roof, change it to something like a deflection bonus. That way, the Gunslinger's still hitting a lower AC, but they're not aiming for an 8 all the time when they've got a +23.the monsters have shaped armor plates OH GOD!Evolved? I thought that in a fantasy world, the creatures had to be intelligently designed . . . .
You can try to control it, but life does what it does. This is something I feel druids need to learn when faced with something like a gorgon.