Mage killer rogue

[Zarius]

So, YEAH. Friend of mine challenged me. I need to build a level 20 rogue that can go toe-to-toe with a wizard, after slogging through his tower, and give him a few new orifices. Orifii?

Feat suggestions, Rogue trick advice, prewritten guides, gear, PrCs, you name it, would all be appreciated.

Three major rules:
1) Everything must be 100% Pathfinder. No 3.5 manuals.
2) No "Gish" (gestalt)
3) No cheese balling. RAW, yes, but no intentional abuse of the rules (such as a thousand shrunken Kobold archers with Swarming and special made projectile weapons through the Creating New Weapons rules allowing for a 890 foot range as a simple weapon).

Beyond that, anything anyone can give as advice would be phenomenal. I have a base plan, but I'm wildly open to anything.

[Saethori]

Go toe to toe with a wizard... are we talking about a wizard five to ten levels below you, or, like, an equivalent level wizard?

Either way, you are going to want lots and lots of saving throw bonuses, such as Slippery Mind. Any wizard that is a challenge to a level 20 rogue is going to know ways to turn his mind inside and out seven times before lunch, and this is before touching onto what he can do to the body.

You need to find ways to avoid instant death, disintegration, being mentally dominated and made to believe you are a poodle, instant death, massive elemental damage, being trapped in a shiny gemstone for eternity, and instant death. Did I mention Wizard is the "save or die" class?

Try not to let him know you're coming, a paranoid wizard is, like, a hundred times deadlier than an unprepared one.

[Zarius]

Sorry, good question. Same level. 20 rogue vs 20 wizzy.

Never hurts to cover the basics, so thank you for the reminder. I miss them more often than not.

[TOZ]

Doesn't exist.

[I3igAl]

If the wizard goes full munchkin he will win without a doubt.
If it is more of a normal dungeon and a playstyle without too much cheese you should be ready to deal with:
-Traps
-being scryed(Hidden Mind could help here)
If you bypass his magical traps without triggering any and don't get scryed/percepted you havewon a big part.

The best way to fight him as an (Unchained)Rogue is probably sneaking up on the guy, dropping an antimagic field and than taking him out with Masterstrike(Ex).
That way contingencies cannot pop up immediately when you attack the guy.

If Ninja counts as Rogue here here pick him for his lvl 20 capstone is just insane and could allow you to win versus an unprepared player all by itself.

As for items. Aside of an Antimagic field item, you could bring something that provides you a couple of wishes and lets you mimic Schrödinger's wizard at least for a couple of rounds should you initial plan fail.

[Zarius]

The problem, TOZ, is that I'm normally a wizard player. I KNOW what their weaknesses are. MY problem is that I've only played rogues in DDO or 2nd edition, so I'm a bit rusty on my roguing. I know it can be done. It largely comes down to the player having enough creativity brains to do something both unexpected and effective.

A simply "doesn't exist" is, frankly, teets on a bull. Useless. So, if you'll give suggestions, I'm all ears. If you're just going to tell me it can't be done, don't let the door explode on your way out.

[Artifix]

How much gold do you have, also is this Wizard armed?

[Zarius]

Artifix, max on standard wealth table for both of us.

[Zarius]

Short version, he's going to be armed to the teeth, metaphorically speaking. OH. Race. Custom allowed, up to 11 RP.

[Cory Stafford 29]

The only way to even come close is to have absurdly high stealth and be able to hit him from stealth with massive damage and some debilitating effect that prevents casting spells.

[Plausible Pseudonym]

Cory Stafford 29 wrote:

The only way to even come close is to have absurdly high stealth and be able to hit him from stealth with massive damage and some debilitating effect that prevents casting spells.

After you've identified and infiltrated the planar lair where he keeps his real body and pinpointed it among the traps and decoys.

[Saethori]

As mentioned earlier, slipping in undetected is going to be the biggest thing. If the wizard knows a rogue is trying to kill him, he will tailor his spells and traps accordingly. He will try to use divination to determine the rogue's identity, and utilize scry and die tactics if given the chance.

To have the best chance at winning, you should try to avoid ever letting him know you exist. If you can get into his inner sanctum undetected, then you can start combat on your terms. I suggest after he wakes up but before he's finished reading his spellbook. In fact, if you can start combat before he wakes up, that's even better.

If he's allowed to fully optimize, you will likely be facing DC 40 spells of all save types. Bringing antimagic as suggested is an exceedingly good plan.

[Theconiel]

I have never played at that level, so I may not be much help. My thoughts are:
1. Do everything you can to shore up your weak saves.
2. Get your UMD score as high as possible and invest in some powerful scrolls.

[Velisruna]

Does it count if you pay all of your wealth to get another wizard to do it for you? Otherwise you are completely outclassed since the wizard's main body is on his own secret demiplane, astrally projecting himself places with a second hidden demiplane with clones set up. The wizard has ninth level spells, the rogue can hit someone fairly hard if he can catch them unaware.

[My Self]

Ideally, you want a first-strike Rogue who can circumvent any of the Wizard's passive defenses. If you get a round or two while standing next to the Wizard, you could turn him into a grease smear. And hopefully you'll have a way to deny contingent teleports. Barring that occurrence, you should focus on your spellcaster defenses, since you won't last a round against a prepared wizard trying to blow up your roguish behind. These come in multiple forms, but include:
- Save-or-die/suffers: Mostly in Fortitude or Will save flavors, too many to list
- Haha-die/suffer: Defenses vary. Power Word Kill, Irresistible Dance, Prismatic Sphere, and Magic Missile come to mind
- Terrain control: Mostly Reflex and non-saves. Grease, Reverse Gravity, Forcecage, Mage's Magnificent/Echean's Excellent Enclosure, Pits, and Wall spells
- Wombo Combos: Aqueous Orb + Hideous Laughter, Deja Vu + Whatever, Walls + Cloudkill
- Summons: Targets everything. Protection from (Alignment) will cover most of these
- Touch AC Blasts: Targets Touch AC, but you've got an advantage on this
- Reflex Blasts: Targets Reflex saves, but you've got this covered already
- Dispels: Dispel Magic and Mage's Disjunction can put a cramp in your day if you were relying on precast buffs or magic items
- Wish: Costs gp to win. Not much you can do except butter up and beg the GM.

Assuming you can get around those, you also need to work around the Wizard's mobility and defenses, which include, but are not limited to:
- Flight: Creates vertical distance to avoid easy hits/kills
- Invisibility: Yup.
- Invisibility Detection: A necessity for high-level Wizards
- Terrain control: Walls will still get in your way. Wizards can also use Passwall to mess with you further.
- Force constructs: Wall of Force, Emergency Force Sphere, and Prismatic Sphere will be hard to beat.
- Teleportation/Planar Travel: The "NOPE!" button in every competent Wizard's arsenal
- Illusory images: Mirror Image is a pain to deal with. Things like Major Image and Project Image can also throw you for a loop while the actual Wizard is watching you fight from the corner.
- Contingent spells: For when the Wizard has fallen and can't get up
- Divination: Wizards can figure out that you're going to attack them before you do. And always win initiative.
- Allies: Just when you thought it was over... Remember that the Wizard can take Leadership, pay off people, or create summons to do anything else.

So yeah, the best thing you can do is win first strike and have good saves.

[N. Jolly]

If the wizard and rogue are being played with equal optimization levels, the wizard will win. That's just it; you're taking the weakest class in the game and pitting it against the strongest. A CRB wizard vs. a rogue with every book written at their disposal will almost certainly be defeated in a fashion so humiliating that it's barely worth stating.

Prep time is also and issue, because as with most situations, magic gets better with prep time; while martials...don't. A wizard can make a team of simulacrums, snocone wish machine, or literally anything else that the CRB allows, and that's before bringing up Arkalion, the mage meant to put uppity martials in their place.

[Hubaris]

A Rogue can take 1 Vigilante Stalker Talent as an Advanced Talent.
I would highly recommend Throat Jab to shut off Verbal components and then from there hope you can get off a Master Strike Save or Die.

Otherwise good luck, stack up Use Magic Device (a couple of Wish scrolls never hurt for various tools and to help advance your one-shot Master Strike), get Hide In Plain Sight to avoid direct targeting and various abilities to shore up your saves. People say Antimagic Field is a must, but it won't help against Spellbane.

If they're even in skill its a blowout against a Rogue at those levels.

[Cory Stafford 29]

Getting high SR is pretty crucial. I saw a crossbow fighter with no archetypes, high umd, and a bunch of scrolls win a pvp with a sorcerer and wizard as opponents. He cast spell resistance from a scroll and none of the casters had spell penetration and rolled crap to get through his sr.

[My Self]

Hubaris wrote:

People say Antimagic Field is a must, but it won't help against Spellbane.

The real kicker is if both of you have Spellbanes of the same caster level set to repel Spellbanes.

[Abraham spalding]

Something else:

You are going to have to lock down the soul afterward too otherwise you are going to have clones, soul transfers, and all sorts of other things to deal with.

[Artifix]

Zarius wrote:

Short version, he's going to be armed to the teeth, metaphorically speaking. OH. Race. Custom allowed, up to 11 RP.

Let me rephrase, is he going be armed with physical weapons or just spells? Because if he doesn't have physical weapons then (I'm not positive on this but) the feat Catch Off Guard.

If archetypes are allowed Counterfeit Mage could help you get rid of some magical traps.

Anyway as for rogue (master) talents the following might help:

1) Dispelling Attack

2) Scry Slip

3) Scrying Familiarity

4) Deadly Sneak

5) Knock Out Blow

6) If Catch Off Guard works then Crippling Strike can let you eliminate all Strength.

7) Another Day

8) You could use the Master Rogue Talent Master Tricks to gain the Ninja Master Trick Assassinate.

9) Improved Evasion

[Charon's Little Helper]

N. Jolly wrote:

If the wizard and rogue are being played with equal optimization levels, the wizard will win. That's just it; you're taking the weakest class in the game and pitting it against the strongest.

If it's an Unchained Rogue, it's not the weakest class, but it's still probably in the bottom third.

But yes, the only chance the rogue has is to go pure stealth (nondetection etc. too). And Skill Unlock for Bluff & Disguise. Then wait. For years. Wait until the wizard lets his guard down and goes on a vacation at the resort which you have spent the last several years designing specifically to entice him.

Then when he orders a drink, give him a massive dose of non-magical poison of some kind which will utterly incapacitate, but not kill, and ready an action to pop an antimagic field just as he is taking a drink. (getting rid of all of his magical defenses against poison etc.) Then take him to another plane and kill him.

But on a battlefield type situation? No. You lose. The only way for a pure martial to 1v1 a decently optimized/prepared wizard at level 20 in a fight is to have mythic levels.

[Zarius]

To the topic of "beg the DM... It's my DM that provoked me. So that won't work. Hehe. I know, I'm suicidal.

Everything on Paizo or d20pfsrd is allowed, including archetypes.

As a side note, I was contemplating a single level of assassin (death strike, start off with a splat) and a single level of shadow dancer for the Hide in Plain Sight that isn't tied to terrain.

I don't know if he's going to have physical weapons, but even if he DOES... that Catch off guard... Delicious. I might end up dual wielding chairs or some weird s&@$ to get as much as I can out of that.

Abraham, normally yes, but this is just a PvDM suicide run. I don't even really expect to win this, though I'm going in whole hog. I'll make sure I have a wish scroll or something on hand just for that, though.

SR, check that. I'll get that one way or another.

Spells:
Fly: Bows? Bows with fireball-enchanted arrows? Is that a thing?
Invisibility: Activated item of True Seeing
Invisibility detection: Wicked high stealth
Teleportation/planar travel: Dimensional Anchor
Illusionary Images: Yet more true seeing
Divination: I like the Scry Slip and Scrying Familiarity idea Artifix gave.
Allies: Umm... Adamantine golems? They ARE objects. As such, I CAN shrink/enlarge them, right? But we DID agree on no leadership, so only what can be acquired through wealth.
Force spells: Antimagic. All I got here is antimagic.

[Zarius]

And I don't care if peeps think he's right. Consider this an exercise in insanity. And since I AM technically insane, shouldn't be much of a stretch.

[Artifix]

Zarius wrote:

And I don't care if peeps think he's right. Consider this an exercise in insanity. And since I AM technically insane, shouldn't be much of a stretch.

I like you, you're crazy enough to try these things no matter what people say!

Also the Ring of Force Shield might help you. So could a Chime of Interruption.

More things (Edit):

The Rune of the Inscrutable One might help.

Ioun Stones are useful these ones might help:

1) Lavender and Green Ellipsoid

2) Pearly White Spindle

3) Pale Lavender Ellipsoid

Race wise here are some ones with spell resistance:

1) Svirfneblin don't have the best stats but there high spell resistance, +2 to saves and decent stealth boost can give you a major advantage, or atleast help you not have such a disadvantage.

2) Drow can do decently well due to there spell resistance as well as the fact that they are skilled in poison which can help you subdue targets. Don't forget they have immunity to sleep effects!

3) Dwarves like the Svirfneblin have stonecunning to help them detect traps and doors in stone walls. They also can exchange Hardy for some spell resistance and are a nice sturdy race.

4) Duergar have pretty high spell resistance as well as once a day invisibility.

Lastly, (atleast for now,) if you want you could kinda cheat and form some Spellcasting Contracts with followers of Asmodeus.

[avr]

The other thing? If you're slogging up through the other defences the wizard will be alerted and will have time to buff up, put into place contingency plans, meet you in a place of his choosing and basically ruin your rogue's day, if not his next century or so. Your chance - your only chance - is to surprise the wizard so utterly that he has no defences other than those up 24/7.

There are a few things helpful with that. Complete and total paranoia, using stealth and distraction rather than leaving a trail of dead guards... slogging up is an interesting way to commit suicide. You're going to want to have the dampen presence feat or rogue talent (plus others on Artifix's list, especially scrying familiarity), to max stealth hard enough that you cannot be spotted - skill mastery may help - and an awful lot of passive defences from magic items.

[wraithstrike]

Zarius wrote:

To the topic of "beg the DM... It's my DM that provoked me. So that won't work. Hehe. I know, I'm suicidal.

Everything on Paizo or d20pfsrd is allowed, including archetypes.

As a side note, I was contemplating a single level of assassin (death strike, start off with a splat) and a single level of shadow dancer for the Hide in Plain Sight that isn't tied to terrain.

I don't know if he's going to have physical weapons, but even if he DOES... that Catch off guard... Delicious. I might end up dual wielding chairs or some weird s+!$ to get as much as I can out of that.

Abraham, normally yes, but this is just a PvDM suicide run. I don't even really expect to win this, though I'm going in whole hog. I'll make sure I have a wish scroll or something on hand just for that, though.

SR, check that. I'll get that one way or another.

Spells:
Fly: Bows? Bows with fireball-enchanted arrows? Is that a thing?
Invisibility: Activated item of True Seeing
Invisibility detection: Wicked high stealth
Teleportation/planar travel: Dimensional Anchor
Illusionary Images: Yet more true seeing
Divination: I like the Scry Slip and Scrying Familiarity idea Artifix gave.
Allies: Umm... Adamantine golems? They ARE objects. As such, I CAN shrink/enlarge them, right? But we DID agree on no leadership, so only what can be acquired through wealth.
Force spells: Antimagic. All I got here is antimagic.

Golem are creatures, not objects even though they are created, and most wizards don't care about golems and their immunity to magic. Conjuration spells still jack them up, and they tend to have crappy will saves. Glitterdust pretty much takes care of them or the caster can summon call something to take care of it.

[The Mortonator]

You have to play a Rogue like, well, a Rogue if you want to beat that challenge.

In other words, there shouldn't BE a combat. There should be a surprise round and a lot of Batman style prep. Work out which instant kill is your best approach, and then stick to that. Be the Wizard's BFF able to lie out your teeth and backstab him. Sneak up while he is asleep. Something like that.

Of course, in theory sneaking up while a Wizard is asleep at level 20 should be a problem if he chooses to be on another plane. Divination is less of a problem than people would believe. Among other things you have two talents that avoid divination spells for DC 15 + Rogue Level. Being careful and aware of the different spells that can track people will make it relatively easy.

If the Wizard was instead a Psychic though, Akashic Form would screw you incredibly hard. Divination Wizard's Forewarn is tricky to outmaneuver too. But, it's definitely possible.

[MageHunter]

Didn't read through everything from laziness, but I feel obliged to post.

Wizards are powerful, but the DC for Concentration is actually pretty hard. If you ready an action to interrupt the spell the DC is 10 + damage dealt + spell level. If that's a ninth level spell minimum roll is likely your damage - 5, not counting for concentration boosts. So max out damage.

Either through archery or maintaining a close proximity, if you keep readying sneak attacks they can't cast spells. I would recommend a sniper build, Kobolds get some good feats. Maybe the step up chain plus feinting as well, I like vital strike for readied actions. Shadowdancer would seriously help you out with sniping, though I think some rogue talent gets Hide-In-Plain-Sight, you'd have to fact check me though.

My profile is a sample Inquisitor build with a similar principle. Any other ideas people have for reliable SA with ranged is handy too. I know it takes investment, but level 20...

No matter what, you need a maxed out Initiative. This does get tricky if the Wizard's part of the Divination school, but I think most people choose Conjuration or Evocation, and since this is custom-fit towards you I'm guessing Conjuration.

I will say Dwarven SR is useless. SR 25 vs. 20th caster level and at least a +6 intelligence bonus? Stick with hardy.

Save or Die spells are often Will based. Regardless that's your weakest save. MAX out cloak of resistance, and love evasion.

Try to get your touch AC as high as possible. You're a rogue so it should be pretty easy.

May we send an arrow through every wizard's eye. (MageHunter greeting) I swear, I should start an optimized anti-wizard revolution or something.

It doesn't matter how powerful the spells are, if they can't cast them!

That's the whole premise of my method.

[Elf Wizard]

I don't like this thread!

[Zarius]

"You have to play a Rogue like, well, a Rogue if you want to beat that challenge.

In other words, there shouldn't BE a combat. There should be a surprise round and a lot of Batman style prep. Work out which instant kill is your best approach, and then stick to that. Be the Wizard's BFF able to lie out your teeth and backstab him. Sneak up while he is asleep. Something like that."

This is a given. But, if you want to play like a Rogue, you also have to have contingencies. Assume the first three plans will fail. Every time.

Opinions on Escapologist? I loose 10 points to perception and disable, but I can take care of magical traps with a wand of antimagic field or similar.

And "slogging" doesn't necessarily mean defeating. Bypassing works, too.

[Dracoknight]

Well, 3 Levels of Horizon Walker for Dimension door for mobility.
Levels in vigilante to screw with scrying.
Allies to make you magic items and spells stored in spell-store weapons and armor or/and scrolls.

The thing with Wizards is that i think the entire class is b@%+#~*+, especially in these kind of "whiteroom" threads where the answer is "My wizard have X against Y" ad infinitum. "My wizard have clones and extra souls, and a dimension, and dungeons, and dragons!" Or better yet spend the entire wealth to pay a Cleric to make his god make the wizard go "poof".

If anything it have to be that the Wizard is generally cautious, but he dont know about the rogue, or that someone is after him, or anything about the "coup" at all despite it being obvious that a lv20 wizard have their enemies.

*sigh* Where is even a lvl 20 wizard going to have the cash to have all of this b&~@!~#*?

[Artifix]

Can you sneak attack with Overwatch Style? If so then you can set up a bunch of readied attacks using Overwatch Style and it's later feats. If you haven Overwatch Vortex you can ready 2 arrows for if the Wizard moves and 2 for if he casts a spell. Then when/if he casts a spell you release an arrow, it hits him and he has to make a concentration check (right?). For even better effect poison the arrows with Drow Poison or some other poison that will cause the Wizard to go unconscious. Then it's just a matter of using a Coup De Grace on the wizard.

Another way you can do this, that is completetly luck based, is using Perfect Strike and a bunch of other feats to allow for reroll. Have a bow with Heart-Piercing or a Slicing Melee Weapon with Vorpal then hope one of your many rolls and rerolls is a 20.

If you don't want to attack people (or atleast not deal damage except for a Coup De Grace) then you can fill the rooms with Dreaming Death. Then you just have to walk up to those who didn't make the save and do a Coup De Grace. Also am I right in assuming sneak attack damage is added to a Coup De Grace?

On another note, I can't believe I forgot to add Hunter's Surprise to my earlier list.

[MageHunter]

Elf Wizard wrote:

I don't like this thread!

I've devoted my entire Profile build to slaying Elven Wizards... AND the backstory! I agree with poisons, it normally doesn't work but due to the Wizard's low Fortitude saves you might get lucky. A good backup, and Poisoner would be handy.

[Elf Wizard]

MageHunter wrote:

Elf Wizard wrote:

I don't like this thread!

I've devoted my entire Profile build to slaying Elven Wizards... AND the backstory! I agree with poisons, it normally doesn't work but due to the Wizard's low Fortitude saves you might get lucky. A good backup, and Poisoner would be handy.

Now I REALLY don't like this thread!

[MageHunter]

Elf Wizard wrote:

MageHunter wrote:

Elf Wizard wrote:

I don't like this thread!

I've devoted my entire Profile build to slaying Elven Wizards... AND the backstory! I agree with poisons, it normally doesn't work but due to the Wizard's low Fortitude saves you might get lucky. A good backup, and Poisoner would be handy.

Now I REALLY don't like this thread!

I don’t have 9th level casting. But what I do have are a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you go camp out in some pocket dimension that's it. I will not look for you, I will not pursue you. But if you don’t, I will look for you, I will find you, and I will kill you.

[Zarius]

Elf Wizard wrote:

MageHunter wrote:

Elf Wizard wrote:

I don't like this thread!

I've devoted my entire Profile build to slaying Elven Wizards... AND the backstory! I agree with poisons, it normally doesn't work but due to the Wizard's low Fortitude saves you might get lucky. A good backup, and Poisoner would be handy.

Now I REALLY don't like this thread!

Then wizards should quit trying to assume they're gods? I mean, seriously... My DM literally said that a L20 Rogue COULD NOT beat a L20 wizard. I find THAT highly offensive.

[Mark Carlson 255]

When you get to him I would use a wand and or scroll with a spell that created an illusion of you so the wizard used some of his best spell on the illusion. Heck if it is a wand keep creating them.
Get golums and have them all have a spell cast on them so they look like you so the wizard does not know which one is you or even if they are you or not.

MDC

[N. Jolly]

Zarius wrote:

Then wizards should quit trying to assume they're gods? I mean, seriously... My DM literally said that a L20 Rogue COULD NOT beat a L20 wizard. I find THAT highly offensive.

Again, under the assumption both are being played to the same level of optimization, your GM is right.

Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

When you get to him I would use a wand and or scroll with a spell that created an illusion of you so the wizard used some of his best spell on the illusion. Heck if it is a wand keep creating them.

Get golums and have them all have a spell cast on them so they look like you so the wizard does not know which one is you or even if they are you or not.

MDC

True seeing, 6th level spell

[Dracoknight]

N. Jolly wrote:

Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

When you get to him I would use a wand and or scroll with a spell that created an illusion of you so the wizard used some of his best spell on the illusion. Heck if it is a wand keep creating them.

Get golums and have them all have a spell cast on them so they look like you so the wizard does not know which one is you or even if they are you or not.

MDC

True seeing, 6th level spell

"And then my wizard have a spell that can disable golems despite their immunity! Ofcourse he made wands so you dont see it on his prepares spell-list!"

[N. Jolly]

Dracoknight wrote:

"And then my wizard have a spell that can disable golems despite their immunity! Ofcourse he made wands so you dont see it on his prepares spell-list!"

Most spells that beat golems don't even interact with their immunity, why do people assume golems being immune to spells that allow spell resistance makes them invincible to all magic? Have we forgotten the painful ease of any of the create pit spells to deal with them? I mean I posted the mage who'd do the best job of this earlier, there's no need to ask for a stat block.

[Artifix]

So do you have a definite weapon or race choice yet?

[GreyWolfLord]

If I'm doing a pure Mage killer, I prefer going Monk over Rogue. Of course, that Monk may only be a one trick pony...and only good at taking down Mages...but overall I think monks can be better Mage killers than most classes.

For a Rogue, One idea would consist of taking a couple levels of spellcasting...I had heard an idea of Arcane Archer casting AMF on their arrows.

Never tried this, mind you, but it's one I've heard that if the DM allowed that type of stuff, could work.