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I know a bastard sword can be wielded two-handed as a martial weapon, but what about the folks who don't have martial weapon proficiencies and want to take one, but don't want to go as far as taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)?
I'm making an alchemist with the Grenadier (PFS Field Guide) archetype. He gets proficiency in all simple weapons and bombs from his class, and his archetype also gives him proficiency with one martial weapon. Is bastard sword a legal choice for that when it isn't actually martial?
It is a two handed martial weapon, but why would you take that profiency over greatsword?
i'd say martial weapon proficiency would grant you the ability to use it a a two handed weapon the EWP for the 1 handing
Bastard swords are a unique weapon that can count for both proficiencies
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It should absolutely be possible.
It is a two handed martial weapon, but why would you take that profiency over greatsword?
Hmm, for...
a) flavor reasons
b) complementing Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) later, resulting in a versatile high damage weapon
c) using a specific good bastard sword the group looted or will loot
From an optimization point of view, greatsword is usually the better choice though.
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i don't really think the rules forum is the place to be debating this great sword over bastard sword thing.
The op just wanted to know about the actually proficiency, nothing actually about greatswords
C is the only one that really makes sense to me. Great swords and bastard swords are practically the same weapon aesthetically so I'm not seeing what flavor you gain there and if you have EWP(bastard sword), MWP(bastard sword) wouldn't do anything for you, since you can already put two hands on a one handed weapon.It should absolutely be possible.
It is a two handed martial weapon, but why would you take that profiency over greatsword?Hmm, for...
a) flavor reasons
b) complementing Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) later, resulting in a versatile high damage weapon
c) using a specific good bastard sword the group looted or will lootFrom an optimization point of view, greatsword is usually the better choice though.
In this case it's reason a (the character aspires to join a particular organization where pretty much all the higher-ups wield bastard swords, but I ran out of feats in his intended build. No room for EWP.
Anyways, thanks folks! :D
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No, the bastard sword is an exotic weapon that has a a special ability such that it can be wielded in two hands without penalty if you have general martial weapon proficiency.
If you do not have proficiency in all martial weapons (or exotic weapon proficiency), you cannot wield it without penalty.
The bastard sword is not ever a martial weapon. Look at the table. It's entry is under exotic weapons, one-handed melee. That's what it is.
No, the bastard sword is an exotic weapon that has a a special ability such that it can be wielded in two hands without penalty if you have general martial weapon proficiency.
If you do not have proficiency in all martial weapons (or exotic weapon proficiency), you cannot wield it without penalty.
The bastard sword is not ever a martial weapon. Look at the table. It's entry is under exotic weapons, one-handed melee. That's what it is.
I agree.
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yea but read it's entry, it counts as martial specifically for wielding it two handed. The exotic bit only applies when trying to wield it in one hand. It's a special case
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For the purposes of choosing a single martial weapon, I don't think it's a viable option to choose.
I'd expect major table variance here. While I can see the point, I don't think the wording supports it being a martial weapon.
So you agree that a class that grants proficiency with all martial weapons could use a bastard sword two handed without suffering a non-proficiency penalty... but do not believe that the martial weapon proficiency feat could be taken to provide the same result?
Why? I don't follow the logic. Clearly martial weapon proficiency for this weapon exists. So why would it only be available as a class feature rather than from a feat?
That said... if someone were going to burn a feat on it, why not take Exotic weapon proficiency? That would allow it to be used either one OR two handed.
(...) I ran out of feats in his intended build. No room for EWP.
You do realise that EWP does not have MWP as a prereq, right (unlike the armor proficiency feats)? If you had room for MWP, you would have room for MWP unless you are playing at very low levels.
(...) I ran out of feats in his intended build. No room for EWP.You do realise that EWP does not have MWP as a prereq, right (unlike the armor proficiency feats)? If you had room for MWP, you would have room for MWP unless you are playing at very low levels.
No, his class gives him proficiency in one martial weapon of his choice.
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I know a bastard sword can be wielded two-handed as a martial weapon, but what about the folks who don't have martial weapon proficiencies and want to take one, but don't want to go as far as taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)?
I'm making an alchemist with the Grenadier (PFS Field Guide) archetype. He gets proficiency in all simple weapons and bombs from his class, and his archetype also gives him proficiency with one martial weapon. Is bastard sword a legal choice for that when it isn't actually martial?
No... the bastard sword is by type a one-handed exotic weapon. Characters who have general martial proficiency can wield it two handed but it is not a martial weapon, as the rules go. It's not found on both charts.
He could just wait until he qualifies, and take the feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword).
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"A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon."
The bastard sword is a two handed martial weapon AND a one handed exotic weapon. It is not listed twice to avoid confusion and to save space.
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"A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon."
The bastard sword is a two handed martial weapon AND a one handed exotic weapon. It is not listed twice to avoid confusion and to save space.
The Bastard sword is an exotic weapon. It simply has a unique quality that it can be used two handed by those who have general martial proficieny.
If you don't have general martial proficiency, your only option to use the sword without penalty is to take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency once you qualify for it, which the only requirement is BAB+1. So your alchemist can gain proficiency with the blade at 3rd level.
it is a martial weapon when used a specific way though, the feat martial weapon is the same as the general proficiency with the exception that it applies to one weapon. In this case the bastard sword
The fact remains that there is no clear answer to this and there will be heavy table variance
as said the weapon is unique and listed under exotic as that is the maximum proficiency you can have to gain full benefit of using one
It is both a two handed martial weapon and a one hand exotic weapon
You can be fully proficient in all weapons or only proficient in one. either way it doesn't change the fact that you are able to use that weapon.
it is probably similar to the Katana situation where you can use Katana as a two handed martial weapon with only martial weapon proficiency or 1 handed as an exotic weapon.
for the record proficient means skilled or competent not mastery of.
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It is both a two handed martial weapon and a one hand exotic weapon
No it is not, It is an exotic weapon with a unique property that allows two-handed use for martially trained characters.
No it is not, It is an exotic weapon with a unique property that allows two-handed use for martially trained characters.
It is both a two handed martial weapon and a one hand exotic weapon
Please explain how having proficiency in all martial weapons at all effects how good you are with a specific one? as far as things go neither of us can prove are point.
I believe there was a ruling a while back that stated you cannot wield a bastard sword in one hand without the exotic weapon proficiency even when taking the normal penalty for non proficiency. it was explicitly stated as "Special training" meaning you are trained to wield it in one hand, hence why it is under exotic weapons, because of that unique property. However normally it can be wielding as a two handed martial weapon so why not treat it as such and allow someone to take training to wield it as one would normally without special training?
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Please explain how having proficiency in all martial weapons at all effects how good you are with a specific one?No it is not, It is an exotic weapon with a unique property that allows two-handed use for martially trained characters.
It is both a two handed martial weapon and a one hand exotic weapon
You're asking the question backwards. The question as you asked it is irrelevant, It is the unique property of this weapon that it can be used two handed by martial characters. It just so happens that no other exotic weapon has been built that way, at least in Core.
The Katana and Dwarven waraxe are built with the same if not similar wording.
No questions are irrelevant, the fact remains that your not answering any of them. Unique property or not it can be used as a martial weapon.
This is most likely a carry over problem in wording from 3.5. Where you could in fact take martial weapon to wield it in two or exotic to wield it in one
Either way the point remains this is a table variance thing so gm's will not allow it however i suspect most will, as many can agree it is a suboptimal compared to greatsword.
You're asking the question backwards. The question as you asked it is irrelevant, It is the unique property of this weapon that it can be used two handed by martial characters. It just so happens that no other exotic weapon has been built that way, at least in Core.
No. It's a unique property of the weapon that it can be used two handed as a martial weapon. Not "used two handed by characters with proficiency in all martial weapons".
The latter is an extrapolation and while not a bad one, that's still all it is.
You're asking the question backwards. The question as you asked it is irrelevant, It is the unique property of this weapon that it can be used two handed by martial characters. It just so happens that no other exotic weapon has been built that way, at least in Core.
No. It's a unique property of the weapon that it can be used two handed as a martial weapon. Not "used two handed by characters with proficiency in all martial weapons".
The latter is an extrapolation and while not a bad one, that's still all it is.
ANY answer to the OP's question is by definition, an extrapolation.
your kind of dodging questions and when you do answer them it''s the same thing over again.
The way your stating things is as if having a proficiency in one weapon at all effects another it does not. the feat martial weapon proficiency is meant to simulate this training. yes it is an exotic weapon but it is also a martial weapon as per that property which states it is both.
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A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.
It doesn't have any property I can see that states it is both. It says, specifically, "it is an exotic weapon".
You can use it two handed as a martial weapon, but that doesn't make it one, that only makes it used like one.
Martial Weapon Proficiency, and the Grenadier ability, both specify choosing one martial weapon. As we can see from the text of the weapon, the bastard sword is not one.
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What I am getting from this discussion:
1. There is disagreement, with text support on both sides, as to the legality of martial proficiency in bastard sword usage (two handed only)
2. There is no mechanical advantage for bastard sword proficiency over other martial weapons.
Considering point 2., if there is a flavor or thematic reason to want bastard sword, why not resolve the dispute in favor of allowing it? I endorse this as a "tie breaker" method, not as a source for rulings.
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As a GM, because the player wants it for RP purposes I would likely allow it (because it is a weaker choice than another choice they could make which is choosing the Greatsword), but this is a rules threads. Because it is a rules thread we are after what the correct interpretation of the rules are.
The problem basically boils down to this:
Some people think Martial Weapon Proficiency(bastard sword) is a valid choice and would allow you to wield a bastard sword only as a two-handed weapon without penalty.
This is incorrect. The bastard sword is only an exotic weapon and their is no such thing as martial weapon proficiency for it, only exotic weapon proficiency. However, if you are generally proficient with all martial weapons the specific qualities of the bastard sword say you can wield it as a two-handed weapon without penalty.
But that is the crux of the discussion, and I don't think either side is capable of convincing the other.
That sounds about right, Claxon. It's kind of a weird corner case. ...Though, I'm not sure why you couldn't just take Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword and use it two-handed anyway... XD I mean, if you're proficient in the weapon to begin with, it shouldn't matter if you're one-handing or two-handing it...
This is true, but it's a weird corner case as you point out. And that corner case exists because the OP's class (Grenadier Alchemist) grants martial weapon proficiency in only 1 weapon of their choice and their build has no room to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
Where does it say if you are generally proficient? it doesn't it say that it can be wielded as a two handed martial, it says nothing about general proficiency
As a side note, i agree, neither side is going to budge on this, idk maybe FAQ it?
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That sounds about right, Claxon. It's kind of a weird corner case. ...Though, I'm not sure why you couldn't just take Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword and use it two-handed anyway... XD I mean, if you're proficient in the weapon to begin with, it shouldn't matter if you're one-handing or two-handing it...
Welcome to the silliness of the bastard sword and its exotic proficiency - something that exists entirely to keep the bastard sword from being a dominant strategy over the long sword.
Where does it say if you are generally proficient? it doesn't it say that it can be wielded as a two handed martial, it says nothing about general proficiency
As a side note, i agree, neither side is going to budge on this, idk maybe FAQ it?
So you can have martial weapon proficiency granted by a class which makes you proficient in all martial weapons (this is being colloquially called general martial weapon proficiency).
The other type of martial weapon proficiency is taking a feat which grants you proficiency in one type of martial weapon.
Bastard swords are an exotic weapon (so you can't have martial weapon proficiency in them) but if you are proficient in all martial weapons then you can wield a bastard sword in two-hands without suffering the penalties for non-proficiency.
The whole thing is as the thread name states "Is martial weapon proficiency(bastard sword) a valid option?". The only answer that people are going to accept here is one by the rules team, however this is an extreme corner case unlikely to be addressed because it's not worth the time.
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So you can have martial weapon proficiency granted by a class which makes you proficient in all martial weapons (this is being colloquially called general martial weapon proficiency).
The other type of martial weapon proficiency is taking a feat which grants you proficiency in one type of martial weapon.
What about the type of martial weapon proficiency actually in question here?
"At 1st level, a grenadier picks one martial weapon to become proficient in the use of."
That's a class feature rather than a feat, but it only applies to a single martial weapon. I don't see any reason that 'two-handed bastard sword' could not be the martial weapon proficiency granted. Given that such proficiency clearly exists there is no basis for limiting it to only one source of proficiency.
"Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon."
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What about the type of martial weapon proficiency actually in question here?
"At 1st level, a grenadier picks one martial weapon to become proficient in the use of."
That's a class feature rather than a feat, but it only applies to a single martial weapon.
A bastard sword is not a martial weapon, though. It is an exotic weapon. It says so right on the weapons table, which is confirmed by a FAQ. The bastard sword is not a martial weapon, it is an exotic weapon that can be used as a martial weapon.
yea but the bastard sword seems to call out the exotic weapon proficiency part seems to be the odd ball out here. that the exotic proficiency is special training, implying that anyone with martial training in it can use it.
Couldn't it just be that it was they didn't want to list it twice? so they listed by it's maximum proficiency?
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The bastard sword is not a martial weapon, it is an exotic weapon that can be used as a martial weapon.
To-may-toe
To-mah-toeThe only way it "can be used as a martial weapon" is if martial weapon proficiency exists for it.
If this text;
"A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons..."
allows someone to use it without a non-proficiency penalty then there is absolutely no reason that this text;
"At 1st level, a grenadier picks one martial weapon to become proficient in the use of."
or this text;
"Choose a type of martial weapon. You understand how to use that type of martial weapon in combat.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally (without the non-proficient penalty)."
would not provide the same benefit.
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Honestly, if that were the case, it would be far easier to make it a two handed martial weapon, and the rules text to say you can wield it with one hand if you take exotic weapon proficiency with it. (If the weapon had that rules text, I feel that it would override the normal requirement of picking an exotic weapon.)
Don't get me wrong, I'd like to allow proficiency with it. I would probably say as a GM that if you had proficiency in Greatsword, you also could wield a bastard sword two handed with the same technique.
But instead we have two things. Martial Weapon Proficiency and the Grenadier ability both ask you to pick a martial weapon. And the Bastard Sword says in every table and even in its own text that it's an exotic weapon.
You can't choose an exotic weapon when it's asking you to choose a martial one.
What about the type of martial weapon proficiency actually in question here?
"At 1st level, a grenadier picks one martial weapon to become proficient in the use of."
That's a class feature rather than a feat, but it only applies to a single martial weapon. I don't see any reason that 'two-handed bastard sword' could not be the martial weapon proficiency granted. Given that such proficiency clearly exists there is no basis for limiting it to only one source of proficiency.
"Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon."
Two-handed bastard sword isn't a martial weapon proficiency that clearly exists, that's the point of contention. If it did exist the Grenadier could take it, but the bastard sword is an exotic weapon not a martial weapon. There is no martial weapon proficiency(bastard sword) that would only allow you to use it 2-handed. It doesn't exist.
The only way we can definitely have an answer as I have stated is for the design team to chime in, because both sides are using the same source and focusing on different parts.
Argument one focuses on the fact the weapon is an exotic weapon, and the logic follows from there that a exotic weapon is not a martial weapon and thus can't have martial weapon proficiency as an option.
Argument two focuses on the fact the weapon which says "a character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon". There logic is that because of this you can choose martial weapon proficiency as a valid option.
There's really nothing more to it, and both sides are making inferences. I obviously believe argument one is a stronger argument, but neither side has any greater evidence for their argument.
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There is no martial weapon proficiency(bastard sword) that would only allow you to use it 2-handed. It doesn't exist.
So fighters (w/o EWP) can't use bastard swords 2-handed without a non-proficiency penalty? Cause... if they can... then such usage exists.
Argument two focuses on the fact the weapon which says "a character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon". There logic is that because of this you can choose martial weapon proficiency as a valid option.
If it counts as a martial weapon for fighters and other classes that gain proficiency with ALL martial weapons then there is no logical reason that it would not also count as a martial weapon for the grenadier that gets proficiency with just ONE martial weapon... or the feat.
A bastard sword can be used two handed as a martial weapon. Ergo, martial weapon proficiency with bastard swords, whether from class proficiencies or the feat, is explicitly a possibility.
Except that it is not a martial weapon and thus can't be chosen for the feat.
Back to the OP, though, why would you not want to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency?