Your body moves around, but that's it.
If that's an insufficient answer I'm going to need you to clarify what part is unclear because I'm not understanding the confusion.
Well, look at some of your comments so far, talking as though you're shocked that people would so readily accept becoming a "horrible undead monster" and offering reminders to the effect of "but you're still dead!" and so forth.
So clearly there's something which, in your mind, is inherently part of being undead and is presumably objectionable in some way, to such a degree as to be worth commenting on when somebody's okay with it.
But the things that immediately come to mind when speaking of "undeath" are things like a skeletal visage, various forms of evilness (like eating the living or whatever), and no longer really being yourself.
But you took all that away, so unless you're having trouble keeping track of your own proposition, those aren't the things you're reacting to.
So let me frame my question this way: what are all the aspects of undeath that you're surprised to see people so readily accept?
Well, I rather like my biology, warts and all (so to speak). Your endocrine system alone is an amazing thing. I guess the biggest objection would be the nervous system. No real feeling to speak of without magic aid. The things we all find pleasure in would basically no longer be fun.
Also, there's the bigger question that if you're dead are you still really human?
My potential objections fall into the hypothetical philosophy realm. Questions we can't really answer because it's fantasy.
It's just a thought experiment. Just know what there will be objections to being dead even if there are no other indications of it. It's not important that one understands everyone else's objections. Just understand that many will think differently than you. That's why I asked the question.
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Why, it's a relevant career choice for an all powerful undead.Acquire an NFL team.Go sit in the corner.*points to corner*
** spoiler omitted **
Drug Kingpin then. Help me out here, you got me in a corner. :-D
The thing is, if your senses are shut off (which they are, due to the loss of the "use" of the nervous system), then how do you sense anything? Liches explicitly have senses more keen than normal living creatures (boost to wisdom, and +8 perception; or spot/listen if you're in 3.5), so at what point do you suppose their senses "end"? They certainly don't need eyeballs or the cones within to make sense of the visible spectrum of light - heck, they don't need light at all to create a (black and white) "visible" image within an arbitrary radius - they, in fact, thus explicitly gain senses they didn't used to have.
They clearly keep smell/location/etc (as they still have a chance at perceiving a non-visible silent gas like any person), and touch (they can tell/control how much pressure they can apply to things without looking directly at them, so they see not fear, say, accidentally crushing a book or tablet). They can talk and have practically all of their other senses, so it doesn't stand to reason that they lose the ability to taste or feel just because they lack skin and a to find as the "skeletal" version.
What's more: they don't have a brain. Even if the "well preserved" lich kept their nerve endings in place, it doesn't t really matter - there isn't a functioning brain to interpret the impulses. And if there is a functioning nervous system, organs, and brain? They're not dead. I mean, some part of them may be dead, sure, but if that's the case, they've just become unshackled by cellular decay, telomeres, and mitochondrial limits imposed by normal biology: they've basically just trade out a new fancy metabolism and brain - one that isn't made out of meat.
If that's all it takes to question if you're the same person (which is legitimate), what about a person who's had extensive internal organ exchange: liver, hips, heart, kidneys, lungs, blood, and maybe bone marrow and a skin graft. Are they the same ship person? This isn't rhetorical - I'm just curious what the limit is.
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Note to Tammy: Learn Gentle Repose and cast it on herself every day.
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I would miss sex too much.
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Did you miss my post about Lichable Viagra. For men, or women.
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Do you do it?Yes.
Once you have completed your initial transformation what do you do initially then in the long term?Murder the idiot who gave me that power, then everyone else.
You aren't the real Chara, you're just a pale imitator (probably that Frisk person).
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Blah. Of course I would! ... eventually. You say I am given the amulet. That goes into my bank deposit. And then, some decades down the line, hopefully before I grow senile or dead, I return to it and press my palm to it. No need throwing away decades of life. Lichdom will keep - that's sort of it's appeal. If I do not manage this, it will pass to my children, to decide what to do with.
Let's say I manage to do it properly, the next issue becomes "with 11th level powers, can I continue gaining XP?" Even if not, that still means 6th level spells. Are there any around to learn? This world is not very forthcoming with those - which would absolutely shape my future activity. Next: Are there others? I would need to know if this means I am alone in the arcane magic field, or if it's a Highlander deal. Could I do spell research, and teach magic? Oh, and I would need to take VERY good care of my phylactery.
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Tammy buried hers... deep inside some guy's chest. Then she fed him to his favorite pig, then buried the pig.
Tammy calls it her TurHamPhyl
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Perhaps the effective alternate thought experiment would be for you to explain why one would assume that being undead would inevitably lead to being evil.
Even when limited to a discussion of the game rules there isn't consensus on that topic, let alone in a real world setting where there isn't an author or DM to declare that undead are evil just because they said so.
In a real world setting, an argument could be made that undead humans, as you have described them here, are less evil than living humans. Living humans are required to kill and consume other living things (animals and/or plants) in order to selfishly continue their own lives. By contrast the undead human is not required to kill anything in order to continue existing. (Although some specific mythologies do require sustenance, such as vampires, the one you cited here does not) This means that by merely continuing their existence living humans are more evil than undead humans.
Beyond that, the "well, all of your efforts will eventually be turned to evil" idea also requires an author or DM figure to make believable. To suggest that any being with power will invariably be corrupted by that power is merely the slippery slope fallacy dressed in different rags.
The idea of surprise that people would accept a powerful immortality that is described in a way that defines it as consequence free (aside from being a state of undeath) is more about one's own personal opinions regarding undeath. Since undeath is not a state that exists in our world, one may be tempted to carry the assumptions from the game over. This would be a mistake, as the game world relies upon many details that are distinctly not true of our world. Although it is fair to say that this is an attempt to relocate a game construct into our world, it is being relocated into our world's framework, not bringing its own with it. Therefore it must be judged by the assumptions of our reality, not the assumptions of its own.
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A tempting offer, to be sure.
If we continue with the convenient givens, . . .
1) No alignment shift
2) Functional 11th-level spellcasting
3) Full control of the phylactery's disposition
4) The physical durability of a lich
. . . I would have to say it's a toss-up for me.
As a Christian (however poor at it I may be), the notion of being effectively immortal in this life conflicts with part of my sense of cosmic order. Combine that with the (sad?) truth that I would oftentimes prefer to be on the other side of life, and the result seems to point clearly toward a "No" response.
On the other hand, though, I would be able to quit my job and become a healerhobo. That has an amazing amount of appeal. We all know how much suffering there is in the world, no matter how trivial some of it may seem at times, and if even one undead do-gooder vigilante could be loosed upon the world, I would think we could all agree "not enough" good could be done. Action economy, and all. But I fundamentally believe in doing all the good one can, and with that kind of power, I would like to say "Yes."
Which, of course, brings me to the moral questions surrounding the use of that power. The "slippery slope" argument may be fallacious from a logical standpoint, but I must confess that I wouldn't have to deliberate for long (or at all) about whether or not to retaliate against those who would, invariably, oppose me. And that, friends, crashes the whole party -- people from all sides/facets of the issue would weigh in, judging my actions, some in favor, others against. It wouldn't take long for me to alienate the very people I would want to help. That leads to a "No."
How many people would starve before I could feed them? How many would die before I could heal their diseases? How many would curse me and the God in whom I believe because I just couldn't get there fast enough? The weight of those emotions would serve as a huge negative. That being said, however, how could I not try to apply those gifts to benefit my fellow man? "Yes, even though . . . ."
Torn.
__________________________
But, in all likelihood, I would turn into the Indestructible Anarch. I would end up abusing my power throwing down those who already abuse their own. Champion of the Oppressed, Scourge of Order and Civilization.
So where would that leave me?
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I saw an interesting handling of undeath leading to evil. It removed the ability to feel strong emotions and to care about anyone new. They would still care about people they did in life, but the life of new people didn't carry any intrinsic value to it. Eventually, all the original friends would pass away, duties and obligations to them would expire, and the lich would be left needing reasons not to kill or hurt people when it could help meet objectives.
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Yep. I've finally concluded I'd do it, and become a superhero.
Because everyone knows liches look great in spandex.
Just ask Tammy!
I saw an interesting handling of undeath leading to evil. It removed the ability to feel strong emotions and to care about anyone new. They would still care about people they did in life, but the life of new people didn't carry any intrinsic value to it. Eventually, all the original friends would pass away, duties and obligations to them would expire, and the lich would be left needing reasons not to kill or hurt people when it could help meet objectives.
That's interesting! Where did you see that? It reminds me, to an extent, of this take on it I wrote - the idea that if you live long enough, you get to watch everything you love and care about slowly go away until society is unrecognizeable and even fundamentally "evil" from your previous experience and expectations. This is, I think, similar to the immortal problems briefly touched upon in the Interview with a Vampire film (I've not read the book), though that one was more framed by "boredom" or something, as I recall.
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I saw an interesting handling of undeath leading to evil. It removed the ability to feel strong emotions and to care about anyone new. They would still care about people they did in life, but the life of new people didn't carry any intrinsic value to it. Eventually, all the original friends would pass away, duties and obligations to them would expire, and the lich would be left needing reasons not to kill or hurt people when it could help meet objectives.That's interesting! Where did you see that? It reminds me, to an extent, of this take on it I wrote - the idea that if you live long enough, you get to watch everything you love and care about slowly go away until society is unrecognizeable and even fundamentally "evil" from your previous experience and expectations. This is, I think, similar to the immortal problems briefly touched upon in the Interview with a Vampire film (I've not read the book), though that one was more framed by "boredom" or something, as I recall.
The Overlord anime, but more so the light novel or manga (I've only read parts, but they have a lot more room to go into thought processes). Plenty of interpretation involved on my part, I'll admit, but they did a great job of keeping most of the underlying personality intact. Apologies in advance for fan-servicey stuff if you do check it out, but that aside it's a fun watch.
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I'm not seeing a downside and I am sure vampires and liches have entertained guest which involved eating and drinking.
Vampires are known to seduce women so I am sure carnal pleasure is still thing.
As for the appearance, the lich would have craft wondrous item, and the ability to research new spells. Between the two he could hide or remove the normal lich appearance pretty well.
The worst part is seeing family and friends die over and over again, but people are resilient.
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Two words.
Lichable Viagra.
With four more words.
For men, or women.
{waggles nonexistent eyebrows} Is that a phylactery in your pocket...
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In a heartbeat, especially considering Liches definitely have some magical bypass for biological functions. They're described as having a craving or thirst for knowledge, and can experience boredom or ennui.
Which means they have emotions, which are usually handled by chemicals in the brain (neither of which a Lich has).
If necessary, I can live without sex, food, and sensation. Living without emotions is a hard pass, because what's the point of living if you have no motivation to do anything?
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1) Become a lich instantly without most drawbacks...
b) Gain 11th level arcane casting and craft wondrous item...
Π) Refuse both, gain nothing.
I can't get over the "no soul-selling, no monkeyspaw-ish drawbacks, nothing in return" bit. I'd expect some gotcha like "Aha, you're now a caster... on a still magic-dead Earth." Or "Aha, you're now a caster... and so is everyone else." Or "You're now a lich... and everyone on the Plane knows it."
Regardless, I know me well enough to know I couldn't decline. I'd choose to be the 11th-level caster (not sure which class though). However, I fear I don't have the willpower to resist doing what I felt was "right", damn the consequences. I get pretty worked up just being on the road with terrible drivers; I'm not sure I could be trusted with such power. And even if I could be trusted in the beginning, how long before my ethics erodes?
Knowing all that though? Still do it. First step: Establish Crone Island.
Edit: Second step: Craft ever-full margarita pitcher.
Now I want a margarita so bad I can actually sense-memory taste it. Argh!
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I can't get over the "no soul-selling, no monkeyspaw-ish drawbacks, nothing in return" bit. I'd expect some gotcha like "Aha, you're now a caster... on a still magic-dead Earth." Or "Aha, you're now a caster... and so is everyone else." Or "You're now a lich... and everyone on the Plane knows it."
As far as I can tell, there is one small catch- you have a crafting feat, but gold is really expensive and prices are given in gold pieces (which are in turn quite a bit of metal). Assuming pure gold, any material components are going to be pricey and any magic items likewise bad. Blood Money is also out since you're immune to the strength damage. But "only 90% of the magic I wanted" isn't much of a catch.
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Even though this is merely a thought experiment, the question is what I'd do IRL, so my religion is a factor. But we'll bypass all that and assume than an angel of the Lord appears unto me and says "Fear not, for behold, I bring...a really weird but totally legit offer."
If my wife is still alive, then I decline; in the unlikely event she has predeceased me, then...
The next question that would need to be settled would be the question of how to replace my phylactery should it be destroyed. Craft Wondrous Item is all well and good, but where am I going to get 120,000gp worth of precious materials -- what's the fantasy-to-real-life exchange rate, anyway?
Assuming I could be satisfied on that point, I think the next thing to decide would be arcane or divine lich? Divine, probably. Arcane casters have to deal with spellbooks and don't have access to all spell on the arcane spell list(s). Do liches retain domain spells/powers from their former existence? If so I'd have to work out what domains/subdomains apply to the Christian Trinity.
Divine spells I'd use routinely:
air bubble, for when I go swimming
ant haul
aura sight
create water
detect poison
discern lies
endure elements; because my 110-yr-old house isn't climate controlled
endure elements, communal
find the path
heal
light
lighten object
locate object
make whole
mending
purify food & drink
read weather
scrying
share language
silence
status
tongues
wind walk
word of recall
And these at need, which would be more or less the reason for taking this on:
admonishing ray, for self-defense
ant haul, communal
breath of life
burning disarm, for the occasional gunman
cure light/moderate/serious/critical wounds
deathwatch
delay pain
delay poison
diagnose disease
hold person
life bubble
make whole, greater
neutralize poison
remove blindness/deafness
remove disease
remove sickness
resist energy
resist energy, communal
share language, communal
speak with dead
tongues, communal
water breathing
[/i]
[i]
Arcane spells I'd use routinely:
air bubble
alarm
ant haul
breeze
clairaudience/clairvoyance
comprehend languages
control vermin
darkvision
detect thoughts
dimension door
endure elements
endure elements, communal
floating disc
light
lighten object
locate object
mage hand
magic missile, for pest control
make whole
mending
prestidigitation
scrying
share language
teleport
telepathic bond
tongues
unseen servant
And at need:
admonishing ray
ant haul, communal
burning disarm
delay pain
disintegrate
echolocation
fly
guards and wards
hold person
invisibility
life bubble
lighten object, mass
move earth
overland flight
permanency*
protection from energy
protection from energy, communal
resist energy
resist energy, communal
seek thoughts
share language, communal
shrink item
urban step
vanish
water breathing
web
*again, would need to know the fantasy-to-real-life exchange rate.
Clearly, I could do a lot more good for a lot more people with the divine spell set. I would miss things like prestidigitation, unseen servant, magic missile, fly, dimension door, and teleport, though.
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I saw an interesting handling of undeath leading to evil. It removed the ability to feel strong emotions and to care about anyone new. They would still care about people they did in life, but the life of new people didn't carry any intrinsic value to it. Eventually, all the original friends would pass away, duties and obligations to them would expire, and the lich would be left needing reasons not to kill or hurt people when it could help meet objectives.
This would suggest that anyone with shallow emotional affect will turn evil.
I can tell you that this is not the case.
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I saw an interesting handling of undeath leading to evil. It removed the ability to feel strong emotions and to care about anyone new. They would still care about people they did in life, but the life of new people didn't carry any intrinsic value to it. Eventually, all the original friends would pass away, duties and obligations to them would expire, and the lich would be left needing reasons not to kill or hurt people when it could help meet objectives.This would suggest that anyone with shallow emotional affect will turn evil.
I can tell you that this is not the case.
Nah, the emotional part of it was pretty small. I only mentioned that because it was something that got changed. (Rather than preventing strong emotions from happening, it reset him to calm anytime his emotions exceeded a certain range.) The actual evil behavior (and to a greater extent, willingness to seriously consider evil behavior but discard it for circumstantial pragmatic reasons) was from the combination of enough power to make "just kill 'em" an easy option, coupled with people not having worth.
Sorry, I'd hate to imply that any particular emotional disposition is necessary to not be a terrible person.
Now I want a margarita so bad I can actually sense-memory taste it. Argh!<drinking margarita right now>
Sorry.
Margaritas now have a special meme attached to them that won't go away thanks to John Oliver.
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For all the would-be Liches who'd like to appear human and not auto-kill/fear people.
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The last thing we need is my personality in an undying, super-powered body with access to the secrets of the universe without having had to go to the trouble of learning the hows and whys. Pass.
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Am I the only one in existence and no one else has magical abilities?
If so, I'd totally become an undead monster to effect the change that I want on the world. I'd probably start with destroying all ammunition mass manufacturing.
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The last thing we need is my personality in an undying, super-powered body with access to the secrets of the universe without having had to go to the trouble of learning the hows and whys. Pass.
You just described exactly why I would. :-)
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Am I the only one in existence and no one else has magical abilities?
If so, I'd totally become an undead monster to effect the change that I want on the world. I'd probably start with destroying all ammunition mass manufacturing.
For sake of argument lets say you don't know either way.
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Five words.
Ryan Seacrest and Celine Dion.
Lichs are around, it would be foolish to assume otherwise.
And if that's not scary enough.
Dick Cheney.
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TBQH I wouldn't use my grand magical power to affect any real change in the world, I'd just use my immortality and lack of real needs to just experience everything the world has to offer.
Read every book, play every game, visit every country...by the time I'm done with what currently exists, my backlog will probably have quadrupled!
As long as the human race doesn't go extinct at some point, of course. Then a few millenia after the last new thing is made I might start to get bored.
Of course then I can try to go planet hopping, see if there's other intelligent life.
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Thing is... it's one thing to lust after unending years, bu8t quality of life is an issue as well.
I'm getting old enough to have outlived many of the things that gave me comfort and joy when I was younger. They haven't been replaced with an equivalent number of things.
Lichdom cuts you off from even more, even if you can bypass the cosmetic downsides.
The other problem is that as you get older, you get more certain of your rightness, and less patient with those younger than you. And you get more set in your ways with the more time you have to practise them.
Immortality is not something we have experience with yet...And god's willing, we never will.
Here's my variation of the question.
You are offered even better immortality, you'll remain forever alive, and forever young.
All it costs is the life of one person. And this is a one time cost.
Would you take it? *some canny folks might recognize this deal*
Vampire however...
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Here's my variation of the question.
You are offered even better immortality, you'll remain forever alive, and forever young.
All it costs is the life of one person. And this is a one time cost.
Would you take it? *some canny folks might recognize this deal*
"Button, Button" from the Twilight Zone?
Here's my variation of the question.
You are offered even better immortality, you'll remain forever alive, and forever young.
All it costs is the life of one person. And this is a one time cost.
Would you take it? *some canny folks might recognize this deal*
Assuming "better immortality" means regeneration, then yeah, I'd take the Dorian Gray deal.
But unless the price is an innocent life or a good life, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't stop with just one person.
"Button, Button" from the Twilight Zone?Here's my variation of the question.
You are offered even better immortality, you'll remain forever alive, and forever young.
All it costs is the life of one person. And this is a one time cost.
Would you take it? *some canny folks might recognize this deal*
Something a tad more recent. The underlying crisis of the story was that the inventor of the process was going make it universally available to any government who wanted to purchase it.
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Here's my variation of the question.
You are offered even better immortality, you'll remain forever alive, and forever young.
All it costs is the life of one person. And this is a one time cost.
Would you take it? *some canny folks might recognize this deal*
Yeah, no. An eternity of guilt?
Wow. Talk about the suck.
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Here's my variation of the question.
You are offered even better immortality, you'll remain forever alive, and forever young.
All it costs is the life of one person. And this is a one time cost.
Would you take it? *some canny folks might recognize this deal*
Yeah, no. An eternity of guilt?
Wow. Talk about the suck.
Fortunately, I was raised Catholic, so Guilt and I are old drinking buddies.
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I would only take the deal if I could get a whole bunch of questions answered first.
Thinking about the scenario, two major questions are the availability of metamagic feats and material components.
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Only if that one person is Francis.
I think I'd rather be an immortal werewolf instead.
I could live with being a Vampire, but not being able to see the sun would stink.
On the otherhand, an immortal Werewolf (as opposed to one that was mortal and would eventually die of old age) is awesome!
You just have to make sure you don't infect everyone else, or you have competition, just infect the ones loyal to you.
Who would want to be a lich when they could be a Werewolf?
Of course, you don't get those nifty spells up to 11th level, but then again, there's nothing stopping you from learning those nifty spells and getting up to 18th level either as a werewolf! Afterall, if you have until the world ends to attain it...what's stopping you!
So Saith the GreyWolfLord...
Or is that the WereWolfLord...
Sometimes things get so confusing to the canine mind.
I would only take the deal if I could get a whole bunch of questions answered first.
Thinking about the scenario, two major questions are the availability of metamagic feats and material components.
What's there to ask? It's simple. You become immortal, someone else dies. How you provide that someone is up to you.
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TBQH I wouldn't use my grand magical power to affect any real change in the world, I'd just use my immortality and lack of real needs to just experience everything the world has to offer.
Read every book, play every game, visit every country...by the time I'm done with what currently exists, my backlog will probably have quadrupled!
As long as the human race doesn't go extinct at some point, of course. Then a few millenia after the last new thing is made I might start to get bored.
Of course then I can try to go planet hopping, see if there's other intelligent life.
Or maybe you decide to ensure that your source of new experiences keeps up with your eternity and take steps that preserve the human race forever.
And voila, Emperor-God of Humanity ;-)