How to be Primitive without OooGah


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Hello all. I'm designing a homebrew campaign and I want this to be a primitive setting. (If you're one of my PC's look away now!) The setting is that the troglodytes (or Xulgaths rather) are still in control. This is several thousand years before the human, dwarven, and elven empires are mighty and strong. The Xulgaths are modeled after the Aztecs. They don't have metal, but they can build, and they have a pretty freaky religion. (Google Aztec Sacrifice if you don't believe me...) The PC's are going to try and unite all the lesser tribes and try to overthrow the Xulgath empire. I want the PC's to be some of the "lesser" races and I'm just trying to get a good idea on how to make them primitive. I have weapons covered and currency. I'm curious about how to do things like skills, what kind've class features should be changed, stuff like that. Any advice on the Xulgaths as well would be helpful. I'm planning for the majority to be enlightened troglodytes (Monster Codex) and then the upper class to be troglodyte paragons. All advice is appreciated, thanks.


Is writing a thing? That informs stuff *a lot*.


So Aztecs, but no conquistadors?

I'm really interested in knowing how your currency works, that seems like the challenging bit to me.

Humans were sophisticated and cultured as soon as we were human, it seems. Otzi the Iceman carried a frame backpack made of like 10 different kinds of wood. His clothing was made of a variety of different materials. He dressed in layers to keep out the weather. He was covered in tattoos.

One of the first things Humans invented was jewelry, and the most primative anatomically modern humans created art and played with dolls. They also dressed their dolls in fancy clothing and jewelry. Yes. We invented the Barbie Doll before we invented irrigated agriculture.

I think times really took their time to change. Henry V invasion force would have had their hands full if they ran into 4 legions under the command of Emperor Tajan, and they were 1300 years apart. I think times used to change even slower. I'm kind of thinking that most skills and feats will look the same in a more primative setting, but I think I'd have to just think about it on a case-by-case basis.


Forgot that. I don't want the lesser tribes to be stupid, but they are illiterate. The Xulgaths have writing. Obviously this knocks out wizard.

Edit- in response to Olaf.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

So Aztecs, but no conquistadors?

I'm really interested in knowing how your currency works, that seems like the challenging bit to me.

Humans were sophisticated and cultured as soon as we were human, it seems. Otzi the Iceman carried a frame backpack made of like 10 different kinds of wood. His clothing was made of a variety of different materials. He dressed in layers to keep out the weather. He was covered in tattoos.

One of the first things Humans invented was jewelry, and the most primative anatomically modern humans created art and played with dolls. They also dressed their dolls in fancy clothing and jewelry. Yes. We invented the Barbie Doll before we invented irrigated agriculture.

I think times really took their time to change. Henry V invasion force would have had their hands full if they ran into 4 legions under the command of Emperor Tajan, and they were 1300 years apart. I think times used to change even slower. I'm kind of thinking that most skills and feats will look the same in a more primative setting, but I think I'd have to just think about it on a case-by-case basis.

Actually, by some accounts, culture even predates modern humans by a bit. They made sculptures in caves.

So anyway. They're illiterate. That means no records of anything, so everything is word of mouth.

Honestly, just play them like people. Think up motivations for the individuals you're roleplaying, add and remove trappings, (style of clothes, armor, weaponry, metallurgy or not etc.) and there you are.

Obviously, they're going to be hunters and gatherers. That implies either a nomadic lifestyle, or a region rich enough to sustain a stationary population.


All right then. I've been working for a bit, and here is the adventure. I don't have any stat blocks but your ideas for now are appreciated. It is a bit long I am aware, but it is a campaign as well so... Also, if you are one of my PC's and you didn't listen before, get off now. ;)

Campaign Setting:
Xulgaths are currently dominating the continent. All the other races are essentially primitives. While the Xulgaths don’t have metal, they are organized, and have writing and construction skills. They also have agriculture, and the mysterious Qlippoth lords to grant them strength. The humans’ advantage is their mere size. The Xulgaths must keep them in check, for if they gain enough hope and rally together…

Xulgath Culture:
The Xulgaths are modeled after the Aztecs. They are aggressive, and have a sacrificial religion. Consequently they constantly abduct humans and other races to serve as sacrifices. They have many occult rituals that involve sacrifice to the Qlippoth lords, allowing boosted agriculture, and providing them with several gifts. This connection has allowed for the elite to have ultimate power.

Events:
You are all in a plain. All of you have your own tribes that decided this area would be nice to find food. Rarely do all the tribes intermingle as such, but there don’t seem to be any complaints. You all have your temporary shelters, and respect boundaries. Your group is made up of curious people, and sent by your own tribes to understand the others.
(PC’s may get to know each other)
All of a sudden you see a bison! This would be a bountiful kill that all could appreciate.
You successfully kill the bison, and later all the separate tribes have a celebration together. (Allow more PC Interaction)
However a large crowd gasps. A human tribal leader immediately drops to his knees. All the other Chieftains follow, and urge everyone else to as well. You look and see a strange creature. It is some form of gray lizard. It’s quite hideous and has an awful stench. Several members of tribes retch at the site. This creature is armed with a macuahuitl, a wooden board with obsidian shards embedded. She addresses all the tribes, and shouts, “ALL CHIEFTAINS KNOW, THE AGREEMENT BETWEEN YOU AND XULGATHS. YOU ALL BREAK IT. YOU THINK WE LET YOU GO? WE DEMAND TRIBUTE, FOR THIS VIOLATION!!! BRING ME TRIBAL HEIRS OR ELSE!!!”
You see several of the chieftains with painful expressions. The human chieftain stands up. He is an old man, but regardless has a reputation for bravery. “Stop, I not let you kill. I fight, and others must fight!!!”
You see several other tribal members stand up, but in one swift motion the Xulgath takes her macuahuitl and decapitates the human chieftain. “MORE?” she screams.
(Cue PC Combat)
The enemy is a Level 2 Fighter. (CR 4) She attempts to demoralize people by incapacitating the strongest looking PC. She will make a couple swipes with her weapon, and then try to knock them out. If interrogated she will curse in draconic.
All the tribes look at you in amazement. You see the daughter of the slain chieftain. She motions for all of you to follow her into her tent.
“You all brave. I am Chief now. What you want to know?”
She will explain what Xulgaths are. “They race of terrible beings. Take us, and kill for evil gods. Chiefs agree to get sacrifices, and they not kill more. They strong, and have magic. They can speak through minds, and change nature,” she explains. “They make us kill each other, so we can’t kill them. If we work together, we defeat them.” She pulls out a strange tooth. “Bring back 10, and we have hope,”
On a series of missions the party will kill 5 more Xulgaths. When they come back, the daughter remarks, “You did it! We’ve hope.” She immediately runs to a fire and throws the teeth in. “For you dad” she says as she jumps in and vanishes. All of you have a unique vision.
A strange voice speaks to you. “Once, there was no intelligent life. The Xulgaths were brute beasts, and the elves barely emerging. They were created by mysterious entities. The Qlippoth broke a sacred agreement and gave intelligence to the Xulgaths. For a while, this didn’t change much. Eventually the Xulgath made tools, and started to dominate the landscape. They invented language, and organized into a tribe. A Qlippoth made its way to this world, and told the Chieftain to worship them, and promised them being rewarded. The Xulgaths learned mysterious and dark ceremonies and rituals, and through blood sacrifice learned the secrets of writing, construction, and agriculture. For a time this sustained them, and they built a mighty city. However, the value of simple beasts in sacrifice decreased the more civilized Xulgaths became. They decided to start sacrificing humans, elves, and dwarves. This gave them not only intelligence, but power. Unfortunately for them, they expanded rather slowly; before this didn’t matter, but some of the original entities granted intelligence to some of the lesser creatures. They reproduced quickly, and were large in number. The Xulgaths had to keep them in check, so they turned them against each other. The Xulgaths displayed their power and told the tribes that if they captured sacrifices from other tribes, they would be spared. Wars ensued against everyone but the Xulgaths. One day, a chieftain was gifted with magic. He knew that it wasn’t the time to overthrow the Xulgaths; even with numbers the Xulgaths were merely too strong. One day, there would be enough, and more magic, and more courage in order to defeat the enemies. That time is now, and you seem to be with courage. That is why I gift upon you the intelligence of construction, and agriculture. You must earn writing, but I am confident you shall. Use your newfound skills to teach others, and allow yourselves to organize into a clan. Build a settlement for all to have domain in, and raise warriors to be strong. Soon, you can commence to attack the Xulgaths,” You all awaken. You are changed, and know things you didn’t know existed. You all have new skills in crafting, and knowledge in agriculture, and architecture. For the next couple years you work to form a clan out of all the tribes and build your settlement.
(PC’s get to design a settlement and kingdom; the story later resumes when they are at 7th level)

This is just a rough start, but what do you guys think?


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What Ooogah do to you!

runs away, crying, and clutching a stuffed dinosaur


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I tip my cap to you there, Captain. So something I want to figure out (it's nice if you looked at the story in general but if you don't want to go through reading) is how to make the characters primitive. I don't want them to be, ahem... stereotypical caveman, but obviously skills and classes need to be changed up. So far I don't think anyone wants to be a full caster, so nothing lost if that's banned. Thematically something requiring research and heavy investment wouldn't fit, but something like Shaman could work. That's what I'm thinking at least. Also skills... Should I ban or limit them? At the end of what I posted it's implied that they'll just get a crap ton of skills on stuff like knowledge, profession, and craft. So, how should I limit those skills?


Thanks! Good stuff by the way, just couldn't help myself. :-)


MageHunter wrote:

Forgot that. I don't want the lesser tribes to be stupid, but they are illiterate. The Xulgaths have writing. Obviously this knocks out wizard.

Edit- in response to Olaf.

Of course, most people through most of history were illiterate.

I wouldn't necessarily say it knocks out wizard. It just changes the flavor. Instead of scrolls of text and bound tomes, you have memory beads and bones with interesting shapes that jog the wizards' memory, so he can recite the little poem to himself that makes the Verbal Component to the Spell. Or maybe he tattoos the memory foci onto himself.

Back in the day when almost everyone was illiterate, people just memorized things and made up poems to help them remember.

Rmember Homer probably never put pen to paper: both the Illiad and the Oddessy were memorized. He was called the Blind Bard, you know.


It sounds pretty good. Players already will need some effort to get used to the setting, so I wouldn't change mechanics much.

Anyway, I have a question about the campaign setting:

Quote:
Xulgaths are currently dominating the continent. (...) The humans’ advantage is their mere size. The Xulgaths must keep them in check, for if they gain enough hope and rally together…

Why didn't the Xulgaths reduce the foreign populations, to reduce danger and get more resources for themselves?

Silver Crusade

First, limit classes. Wizard as you said is out, I would oust cleric as well since it's more for organized religion. I'ld suggest Oracle, Sorcerer, Ranger, Barbarian, and Fighter as the primary classes, with druids also feasible.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I think times used to change even slower.

90 percent of the science and technology we know today, was made while you and your parents were alive.


MageHunter wrote:

All right then. I've been working for a bit, and here is the adventure. I don't have any stat blocks but your ideas for now are appreciated. It is a bit long I am aware, but it is a campaign as well so... Also, if you are one of my PC's and you didn't listen before, get off now. ;)

** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...

You need to paragraph break more.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I think times used to change even slower.

90 percent of the science and technology we know today, was made while you and your parents were alive.

But the most important stuff: tattoos, Barbie dolls, jewelry, a credit economy--we invented first!

Liberty's Edge

Val'bryn2 wrote:
First, limit classes. Wizard as you said is out, I would oust cleric as well since it's more for organized religion. I'ld suggest Oracle, Sorcerer, Ranger, Barbarian, and Fighter as the primary classes, with druids also feasible.

I think Druid would be a good addition to the list.

I wish I were a player at your table. This sounds like a fantastic setting and campaign.


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SheepishEidolon wrote:

It sounds pretty good. Players already will need some effort to get used to the setting, so I wouldn't change mechanics much.

Anyway, I have a question about the campaign setting:

Quote:
Xulgaths are currently dominating the continent. (...) The humans’ advantage is their mere size. The Xulgaths must keep them in check, for if they gain enough hope and rally together…
Why didn't the Xulgaths reduce the foreign populations, to reduce danger and get more resources for themselves?

to maintain their strength they require sacrifices of intelligent creatures to their Qlippoth lords. They're really farming them, and are dependent. Like the Matrix. The tribes are the resorces.


All right then, here is the first Xulgath soldier. I'll later update her once I review the magic item rules and treasure to determine all the total equipment.Also, some of you may question the feat choices, however, in the Aztec empire, the famed Jaguar warriors reached their status by capturing 20 sacrifices. It was much more impressive to capture rather than kill, so armed with their Macuahuitls they had deadly combos of swipe, and then knock out. Also, if I didn't mention it this will consist of 6 level 3 players.

Xulgath Soldier CR 4:

XP 1200
Enlightened Troglodyte Fighter 2
CE Medium Humanoid (Reptilian)
Init +4; Senses Darkvision 90 ft,; Perception +3
Aura stench (30 ft., DC 13, 10 rounds)

Defense:

AC (TBD), Touch, Flat-footed (Dex, armor, shield, +6 natural)
Hp 51 (2d8 +2d10 +28)
Fort +13, Ref +4, Will +1 (+1 vs. Fear)

Offense:

Speed 30 ft.
Melee Mwk. Macuahuitl +7 (1d8/19-20/x2), Bite (1d4), Claw x2 (1d4)
Ranged (TBD)

Statistics:

Str 18, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 11
Base Atk +2, CMB +2, CMD +11
Feats; Bludgeoner, Catch Off Guard, Great Fortitude, Intimidating Prowess,
Skills; Climb +9, Handle Animal +10, Intimidate +5, Stealth +6 (+10 Rocky Areas), Perception +3, Survival +6
Languages Common, Draconic,
Equipment (TBD)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

You can have wizards (and other spellbook-using classes) by using the Spell Mastery feat. Swap out the wizard's bonus Scribe Scroll for Spell Mastery. They'll have to take Spell Mastery for pretty much all their feats. Not ideal, but they're not supposed to be.

I wouldn't limit any classes. Even the gunslinger should be allowed; just replace the guns for magic "wands" or "spirit sticks" etc. If you allow all classes and explain the nature of the campaign to your players, they will either self-limit their class choice to something "primitive" or come up with some really great justifications for playing a caveman paladin, etc.

It actually takes a lot of smarts to survive and thrive with primitive technology.

Just using wooden, leather, bone, and stone weapons and armor will add a lot of flavor to your campaign.


All right then. I'll allow players to justify things to me. It'll probably be more enjoyable that way anyways.


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You want Aztec? Forgotten Realms already has it: Maztica.

Novels about it: Maztica Trilogy.

Prestige classes: Jaguar Knight and Eagle Knight.

BIG FIND HERE --> Net Books about Maztica. These include complete campaign ready modules and such.

I have the boxed set at home, and I recall skills included playing the "ball game", that was the major entertainment. Another was two forms of magic crafting [pluma (feather) and scale]. Survival skills rate well. However, as it was 2nd ed, it did not break out skills like PF, so you would have to adjust it a bit.

/cevah

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I ran an Aztec Ball Game for PF. I made the opponent team monks. The players had a ball!!!!

No weapons or armor allowed, and I forget what I did for catching. Maybe Reflex save or use Immediate Action to guarantee a catch?


Some interesting ideas here. While the Maztica stuff does look cool, I don't think it would necessarily fit as well, as that seems to give more stuff to the Aztecs, which are the villains. Regardless, this is my first homebrew campaign, so I do want it to be personal, and mostly run with what I already have. An aztec ball game does seem cool, and it does seem likely they would force their sacrifices to do that. Maybe even performance combat in an arena. I sort've jumped to 7th level because I didn't want this to run too long, but still wanted to start at a lower level to make it easier to get adjusted. At later levels definitely it would be cool to be captured and forced to survive sacrifice.


MageHunter wrote:

Forgot that. I don't want the lesser tribes to be stupid, but they are illiterate. The Xulgaths have writing. Obviously this knocks out wizard.

Edit- in response to Olaf.

Perhaps there's no writing, but what about Quipu?

Obligatory wikipedia link about quipu.


Ventnor wrote:
MageHunter wrote:

Forgot that. I don't want the lesser tribes to be stupid, but they are illiterate. The Xulgaths have writing. Obviously this knocks out wizard.

Edit- in response to Olaf.

Perhaps there's no writing, but what about Quipu?

Obligatory wikipedia link about quipu.

While interesting, the Xulgaths would just have writing and their own numbers, and the lesser tribes would have no need for something like that. Later when they get smarter however... They don't have writing so this could be interesting.

Silver Crusade

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If you are looking to make skills more interesting, consider adding a mechanic that unlocks each of them as they adventure. Start with certain skills off limits based on the setting, then restrict how many ranks can be into skills.

Then in the first mission, introduce an NPC that teaches them a technique that unlocks a skill that they will need (cave diving using climb or swim in the case of Yukatan cave systems). Then choose different specialists in the world that they can find to unlock or increase the cap on skills (come to think of it, things like skill unlocks from Unchained would be a cool thing to add in at higher levels).

This would create an economy of skills that represents how geography shaped cultures and civilization. The more that people are brought together, the more they specialize and develop technologies and crafts.


How about instead of "wizards" you call them "whittlers" - almost the same mechanics just reflavoured. Have them craft beads to use as spells instead of using books and scrolls. To create a bead, they must whittle a copy of an existing bead in their possession (unless they have spell perfection or similar). To use a spell, they simply throw the bead and the spell takes effect.


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I actually really like the idea of NPC's teaching skills. The PC's would likely rescue some would-be sacrifices, so this would be an interesting idea. They're starting 4th level, so I think I might cap them at 6 ranks, for pretty specific stuff. (Profession, knowledge, craft, etc.) I actually like the idea of whittlers. If any of my PC's wants to be a wizard, I'll tell that to them. Something I'm a bit curious about, is how to work out magic items. I don't want it to be too heavy, as the lesser tribes lack resources, an I don't want the Xulgaths to have too large an advantage. I think i just won't have anything past Mwk. It just seems like a mechanic that wouldn't fit in.


You might check this out. While not a PF source, by reports it is well-researched.

A few more sources:

* List of facts on the Aztec
* Aztec society and family (men and women owned property, men could have more than one wife, but the primary wife had the final say--interestingly, one of the things the conquerors were horrified at was the relative independence many women in the new world enjoyed, though this is not universal. The Cherokee for example, had to change the status of their women in order to not be seen as barbarians, and the Cherokee tradition of the War Woman was horrifyingly awesome)
* Aztec mathematics and the woes of tax time
* The tribal conflicts were geopolitical, too
* Aztec religion
* Songs of the ancient Aztec (translated)

More...

As an aside, the Conquistadors make great inspirations for evil villains and PCs. We are talking, "pull a small boy of under the age of 4 aside, cut off a slice of his flesh to test your knife and for funsies, then watch him run screaming and laugh, then record it in bragging terms in your journal" Evil.

It was bad enough that it pit them against the Jesuits, who would work to salvage native peoples from their cruelty. They were not without fault themselves, of course.

...but, you are talking evil in the sense of cutting off childrens' hands, cutting out a pound of flesh, and then laughing as they run away, the turning tribe-against-tribe, and the deliberate spread of sickness with the intent to kill, sexual assault, subjugation and slavery, and perhaps just for giggles. Mothers at the time were not unknown to drown their children rather than risk such a fate. Reading their journals is a good source for inspiration on "how to play evil" although I suggest chugging some Mylanta along with portions of them.

If you want "primitive" in general, I would suggest checking out the anthropology section of a book store (esp one near a campus) and seeing what you can pick up for a few bucks. Great stuff there.

What you might do is start with their faith and lifestyle, and just "see how that makes them a people."


I think quite a few classes are viable in pre-ancient times, I'll explain below;

Spoiler:
Fighter - We've been fighting long before we even had a specialized group of people to do it for us, let alone weapons to arm them with. In a uncivilized world where you have to fight just to survive, fighters would be plentiful. Things like heavy armor would be unheard of, unless the group runs into the forerunners of modern Dwarves and are gifted a set of Stone Plate as a gift for helping them, but more on that later. Even shields aren't a massive stretch of the imagination, hide stretched over a wooden frame.

Rogue - Sneaking is nothing new to ancient peoples. What is a rogue? Someone who sneaks very, very well and knows how to make the first strike the most deadly. Rogues could be refined hunters of society, when you get right down to it the difference between hunting unintelligent animals and intelligent combatants is negligible. Rogues are masters of surprise and ambush through use of sneaky tricks to gain the upper hand, throwing dirt into an opponent's eyes, coating one's flint dagger in the poison of a deadly viper because he's seen what the poison does to the snake's prey, all extremely believable.

Shaman - This class fits very well in my opinion. Save maybe tying with a druid, this is the most primitive class I can think of. Here instead of being outcasted sticklers to the "old ways" they are the founders of the "modern ways" of magic, communing with the spirits of the world around them, seeking enlightenment for the betterment of their tribes.

They would fit well for leaders or at least advisors of the tribes, perhaps the one who gives the party it's chance to try to convince the other members that uniting and overthrowing the Troglodytes is actually a feasible endeavor and not an impossible goal, as I'm sure most human tribes assume it would be.

Druid - The first druids weren't taught by other druids, they where taught by nature herself. So Druids make perfect sense, like the Shaman more in this setting then the "modern" setting of most Fantasy worlds. Advocates for nature perhaps the Troglodytes have become too destructive towards nature, burning swaths of land to build their cities, or just out of spite not having any admiration for nature's beauty or place in the world. Sooner or later nature will just have had enough and while her advocate and mediator Druids are also her wrathful avengers.

Ranger - A ranged hunter with an animal companion, makes total sense. I mean wolves where the first creatures ancient man ever made friends with, it was as simple as the wolves leaving their pack to join ours. We are both pack animals after all. In a fantasy setting then it would be perfectly believable for them to find kinship with other creatures through mutual respect and gain.

A tribe after all needs skilled hunters and trackers to keep tabs on the going ons in their territory. Weapons like bows would likely be off the table unless contact with primitive wood elves and a beneficial agreement would bestow the craft onto to human kind, along with the training to use them. Still a thrown spear or sling would make sense for the setting.

Paladin - I've long loved more then a Paladin devoted to a deity the Paladin that believes in "good for goodness sake", drawing power from the unseen forces of order and right and being the champion of those who can't defend themselves. The concept has jived with me, in large part thanks to Warcraft's concept of "The Holy Light", that good just is, and anyone can fight for it if they put their hearts into and are willing to go above and beyond when mortals are threatened.

Perhaps a great warrior was captured by the Troglodytes and relentlessly tortured but he never once relented, no matter how they tried to break him he would never bow to them, spiting in defiance. Perhaps so moved was the unseen forces of righteousness that just when he was to be struck down for good that a flash of light blinded his attackers and broke his bindings, giving him them the strength to fight his way out, perhaps liberating other captives as well. Ever since he's found he has access to strange and wonderful powers that allow him to heal the innocent and smite the wicked.

And being a stickler for old school paladins I'd see his weapon of choice being a two handed stone maw, all the better to crush the tyrannical Troglodytes with. Paladins are the hammer of the Light, after all.

Bard - When you get down to it, Bards are magical storytellers, through song and dance they make amazing things happen, while remaining competent combatants all the while. But where did those stories come from? Well you have to venture out into the wide open world to see those stories from yourself, or mayhap be part of that group that writes those stories that others will sing and dance about for ages. I can see a bard working without much fuss.

Sorcerer - Sorcerers derive their magical through innate means that they barely understand, it's a life long pursuit to understand their otherworldly powers, and nowhere better to find the true extent of their abilities then unleashing them on the oppressive Troglodytes whom I'm sure have been less then happy about humans developing otherworldly powers. I would limit however, the number of possible bloodlines to ones that would make sense. I doubt outsiders like demons in the like have yet to really take an interest in humanity just yet, they'd be more interested in making pacts with the evil Troglodytes. Still more... "primal" Bloodlines would make sense.

Cleric - This one is tough but like Dan said if they weave a good yarn about how it would be possible I'd allow it. For my own thoughts I'd say the leader of a tribe that worships the sun could work. They believe the sun has power, as no matter how cruel and oppressive the Troglodytes get the sun rises every to greet humanity no matter how bad things seem to get. Maybe this veneration is reward with power to heal the sick and give hope to people that there may yet be a better world for them.

Once again this the powers of the Light coming from overarching fount of goodness in the world, instead of a specific deity. Or perhaps the deity empowering them has yet to give them a face or name yet, and simply chooses to remain faceless and nameless, or doesn't have either yet, still trying to figure out who "they" are in the first place. Lots of possibilities.

Gunslingers - Magic shooting "spirit sticks"... All my yes. Just... all of it. Dan I freakin' love you dude that's brilliant. I don't know what more I could add on this, save that "reloading" the spirit stick involves doing a dance or chanting until the painted marking start glowing again to symbolize it's "loaded" and ready to fire again.

Cavalier - If ancient man in this setting befriended animals their own size or smaller, it's no stretch of the imagination for a few devoted animal friends to have made peace with some beasts that are plenty big enough to ride and willing to allow their human pals to ride them in battle, bareback or with a primitive saddle, I mean modern saddles are complicated but what isn't? It's a piece of padded leather affixed to make riding more comfortable for both parties. Add in a long spears or other primitive pole arm and you've got yourself a Beast Rider!

Wizard - You're a wizard Oogar! Haha. But seriously like others said trade scrolls and books for counting beads and small painted glyphs on treated animal hide. All the same I'd limit access to any magic that seems "civilized" or too advanced and complex for any magical class, Sorcerer included. Though you could different Wizards by the fact they constantly push the line and embark to use far more dangerous and complex magic as opposed to the sorcerers who stick to what they know and learn little by little.

Oracle - Once again Oracles fall into the same slot as sorcerers in such a setting, they don't understand where they powers come from, only that they have them and it "means something", so it's a life quest to find what it all means and why, meanwhile using their otherworldly powers to advise and protect their people, so a shared role with the Shaman.

Vigilante - MIGHTY MIGHTOR!!! Haha, sorry I couldn't resist, but you never know, it could work here too.

Monk - When you break a monk down to their core values they are individuals who seek spiritual enlightenment through the pursuit of physical perfection. Once again it's not that big of a stretch in prehistoric times. Replace the far flung monastery with a remote mountain top, away from all the bedlam in the lands below and you have all the hallmarks of a foundation for a monk order.

It could be, and probably did just start with one person, a warrior thought killed in a battle or while hunting, but once he or she found themselves still alive where so moved by their experience as to choose to remain away from their people to seek answers to how they managed to survive, and to pursue those answers by constantly pushing themselves to the limit of which mortal kind is capable of.

So that covers the bulk of my thoughts on classes, but have you thought about other races at all? I had some thoughts on them as well;

Spoiler:
Dwarves - These are dwarves long before they came to the surface in earnest, perhaps the ones encountered by the heroes only recently broke through to the blinding light of the surface, as such re-frame from leaving due to fear of the unknown and the fact their darkness adjusted eyes can't cope with the light of sun. While they are nowhere near the level of technical acclaim to know anything about metal working there's no way they haven't become masters of ancient stone working.

They may even been more stone then mortal, as more then one origin in fantasy states Dwarves where carved from rock and then either blessed or cursed with mortal flesh later on. They would be wary of humans no doubt, but the similarities in appearances would be a way to ease tension, no doubt showing them some of men's workings with wood, leather and bone would impress them enough to want to trade or even help fight the Troglodytes if they could be convinced they would one day threaten them in their deep mountainous cave homes.

Elves - Elves of this setting would be what many fantasy worlds would call "Wood Elves". Dwelling in treetop homes made simple to be one with nature as opposed to bending it to their will as other races, like humans do. This might be an early point of contention between the two races, but like the first encounters with the Dwarves I believe the similarity in appearance alone could allow for the opening of lines of communication and trade.

Speaking of trade if you'd allow bows in the setting as an "advanced" or late tier weapon, I think Elves would be the source of such creations. Elves without bows is just such an alien concept to me, even if they are very simple I can't seen elvenkind without them. Again they could also be rallied as allies against the Troglodytes, the Elves might be far flung in forested enclaves distances away from the Troglodyte empire, but if they'd see first hand what the scaly bastards are capable, disrespect for nature and even life itself they'd rather see humans succeed them, as humankind at least is willing to negotiate and seek peace most of the time.

Orcs - Orcs of this era would undoubtedly be savage warmongers, constantly warring with themselves and anyone nearby, they could perhaps already be a constant thorn in the side of the Troglodytes empire, constantly raiding villages and being a nuisance but not a unified enough of a threat to fully devote to stamping out.

Perhaps the party could meddle enough to cause the Orcs and Troglodytes to commit to all out war, using magic or otherwise to see a particularly powerful chieftain rise to power and group numerous tribes into one massive horde that then wages an all out assault on the Troglodytes empire, forcing them to send the bulk of their army to deal with the Orcish menace, in doing so allowing humanity the opportunity to launch their own attack and take cities of the Troglodytes for their own and crush their leadership for all times.

Then when the beaten and battered but likely victorious Troglodytes army comes home they are shocked to find battle scared and entrenched humans waiting for them, this could very will be what caused their down fall, forced to run and devolve over the ages into the modern cave dwelling scaly savages modern folk know as Troglodytes.

The Orcs may also have found out that human intervention was what lead to the massed conflict as well and be the origin for the age old hatreds of humankind, as well as Dwarves and Elves too, the allies of humanity.

Well that's enough walls of text for one day, love to know what you think. :D


Hmmmm. As far as class availability goes, I would limit arcane or divine casters, as others said. I suppose clerics could draw on the primal forces of nature, but that'd be fairly sketchy. Paladins are out as well, should you oust divine magic. Rangers and barbarians are obviously an in, though I'd change the ranger to something like hunter. Fighters would be fair, and I could conceivably see monks being about, though you'd have to change up their name and general flavour. As far as the races themselves go, I can think of a few obvious parallels. Dwarves would be similar to Neanderthals, in that they are possessed of considerable physical strength, but even more technologically lacking then the other races. Elves would maintain their general ties to nature, being more advanced then the dwarves, albeit in a more natural way. Gnomes (If you have them) would be sort of pseudo steampunk, with things like millstones or wheels. They would be the most advanced of the tribes. Finally, humans would be somewhat middling, coexisting to some degree with nature while also fearing its power. I'm rather curious-What sort of creatures will inhabit this work of yours? If you're going for a prehistoric vibe, then I'd count out obviously magical creatures. I'd advise creating pseudo magical creatures. Stuff like panthers, with a sort of naturally reflective coat that makes it hard to see, or appear in different places. (A displaced beast). You could also go for a few very close tribes to the Troglodytes who are more loyal, like goblinoids or the less magical giant kin, as a means of adding some variety to combat with the Troglodytes.


I'd seriously reconsider the broken English. You'll grow tired of it real quick, and the players probably won't use it.
Besides, I'm sure they had grammar, even back then.


The big issue I see with most of the classes in a primitive setting is, literally, calories. As in, who the hell feeds the person who is going to grow up to be a wizard or a paladin?

All of the "primitive" groups we know about are generally only a few meals away from starvation all the time, which means that hunting and gathering are a full-time job for anyone who wants to be a full-time eater. What does a wizard-in-training offer the rest of the group that's as valuable as the 1500 calories a day she's eating but not finding?


Orfamay Quest wrote:

The big issue I see with most of the classes in a primitive setting is, literally, calories. As in, who the hell feeds the person who is going to grow up to be a wizard or a paladin?

All of the "primitive" groups we know about are generally only a few meals away from starvation all the time, which means that hunting and gathering are a full-time job for anyone who wants to be a full-time eater. What does a wizard-in-training offer the rest of the group that's as valuable as the 1500 calories a day she's eating but not finding?

It depends on how you define primitive. Many of the lost Western Hemisphere, Asian and African cultures may have lacked certain things that define a culture as "not so primitive" but still had a sophisticated enough agricultural system to feed a population above the subsistence level. The Incans never used the wheel for anything but children's toys and ran their culture on heavy manual labor, yet built some pretty impressive cities and employed building tricks we moderns are still working the details of.

Modern to primitive is not a simple two dimensional measure.


Personally, I would use Automatic Bonus Progression for a primitive sort of game. It helps with the idea that the ancient people were 'naturally' tough, and helps compensate for the (assumed) lack of most magical items. XD


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:

The big issue I see with most of the classes in a primitive setting is, literally, calories. As in, who the hell feeds the person who is going to grow up to be a wizard or a paladin?

All of the "primitive" groups we know about are generally only a few meals away from starvation all the time, which means that hunting and gathering are a full-time job for anyone who wants to be a full-time eater. What does a wizard-in-training offer the rest of the group that's as valuable as the 1500 calories a day she's eating but not finding?

It depends on how you define primitive.

Hunter-gatherer.

Since the OP is defining "advanced" as Aztec-level technology,.... well, the Incas you mentioned weren't actually "primitive" in comparison; in fact, the Incas were better at metalworking than the Aztecs, and still were largely working native metals like copper nuggets with hammers. (The height of American metallurgy was basically smelting metallic copper from its sulphide. No one managed bronze before the arrival of the Europeans.) So anything substantially less sophisticated than the Aztecs is basically neolithic, and probably hunter-gatherer.


GM Rednal wrote:
Personally, I would use Automatic Bonus Progression for a primitive sort of game. It helps with the idea that the ancient people were 'naturally' tough, and helps compensate for the (assumed) lack of most magical items. XD

Or you could change the challenges, so neither would be needed.

The thing is saying you want a primitive game doesn't really define your setting in the terms of what lives there. A primitive game with Golarion's typical magical beasts, is a lot different from as survival based Ice Age game, or a Neolithic pre Bronze Age style culture. (Remember, Neolithics were sophisticated enough to make beer.)


SquirrelyOgre wrote:

You might check this out. While not a PF source, by reports it is well-researched.

(...)

Thanks for this. It's pretty handy. The Aztecs here would be the villains, but if they finish up the campaign I might see about recreating the Spaniards. I actually have looked into this, and a large part of the Aztec downfall, was that everyone hated them. Literally, everyone. They would intentionally start wars just to get sacrifices, so consequently when the spaniards came along with biological warfare and guns, the other tribes just immediately attacked the Aztecs. It's part of the inspiration for this. I suppose the spaniards is the mysterious voice. While yes we consider the Spanish the bad guys (plot twist for later?) I think it's worth noting that the Aztecs weren't too nice either. I really love history, so it's fun to mix it in with Pathfinder. I've looked pretty heavily into the Aztecs a while ago, and I have a HUGE book on world mythology I'll definitely review.

@JakeCWolf I love the stuff you have. I'll definitely use it when they get to seventh level with the orcs. Thank you all for input on classes. I'm considering word casting for everyone, as it means the magic isn't as specific and more primal.

I'll take a look at Automatic Bonus Progression. It seems good so far, and could help fix a couple problems. Thanks.

In terms of primitive, I mean the PC's have never seen farming or advanced construction. No one has seen metal yet. I suppose a wizard has plenty of things to contribute to a tribe. They may be feared or respected due to their low numbers. Keeping in mind, Players are special, they're not ordinary people. I'll readjust some stuff after I finalize class decisions to explain what happens to the strong.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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I think worgs would be really frightening. Wolves that talk. And wolves that hunt people.

EDIT:

Cantrips could be really useful. light, mending, message,mage hand, prestidigitation would all be amazing. Prestidigitation in particular could be used as Mastodon Helper.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:

The big issue I see with most of the classes in a primitive setting is, literally, calories. As in, who the hell feeds the person who is going to grow up to be a wizard or a paladin?

All of the "primitive" groups we know about are generally only a few meals away from starvation all the time, which means that hunting and gathering are a full-time job for anyone who wants to be a full-time eater. What does a wizard-in-training offer the rest of the group that's as valuable as the 1500 calories a day she's eating but not finding?

It depends on how you define primitive.

Hunter-gatherer.

Since the OP is defining "advanced" as Aztec-level technology,.... well, the Incas you mentioned weren't actually "primitive" in comparison; in fact, the Incas were better at metalworking than the Aztecs, and still were largely working native metals like copper nuggets with hammers. (The height of American metallurgy was basically smelting metallic copper from its sulphide. No one managed bronze before the arrival of the Europeans.) So anything substantially less sophisticated than the Aztecs is basically neolithic, and probably hunter-gatherer.

Look up the Maasai as well. Pretty healthy folk. "This close to starving" isn't that true everywhere. Granted, in the US we may be biased in our outlook--we shoved them from lands where they knew how to adjust and get food readily, and from good lands, to the starving outbacks, basically.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

HG works really well for small groups of people (20 or 30 or so), but for larger groups, especially larger sedentary groups, you're eventually going to need to learn how to farm. Swiddening at first, then horticulture and agriculture.


Just took a closer look at automatic bonus progression
DEFINITELY USING THIS!!!
Thanks Gm Rednal


Orfamay Quest wrote:

The big issue I see with most of the classes in a primitive setting is, literally, calories. As in, who the hell feeds the person who is going to grow up to be a wizard or a paladin?

All of the "primitive" groups we know about are generally only a few meals away from starvation all the time, which means that hunting and gathering are a full-time job for anyone who wants to be a full-time eater. What does a wizard-in-training offer the rest of the group that's as valuable as the 1500 calories a day she's eating but not finding?

Actually, many "primitive" societies had a lot more time for play. It is us who are so busy, we don't have time for play.

All that free time can be used to study for a wizard, or for meditating on the divine for a paladin.

When food is plentiful and easily gathered, a few days supply is fine.

/cevah

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

It's just the same food day after day, every day. Prestidigitation used to flavor food would make a wizard VERY valuable.


@MageHunter: I'm glad you liked the idea. XD You may want to consider the 'advanced' version (two levels higher on the table) if you really want to keep magic items rare.

Alternately, players could wear items 'blessed' by the gods. This is functionally crafting, but is flavored as doing rituals and making sacrifices in order to get the support of their tribe's gods (or whatever). Blessed items might not work for other characters, although a few items gifted from NPCs could work for anyone. This could help you keep fairly tight control of things, and the gods could simply refuse to create any item you don't want in the game. There'd be less emphasis on the physical aspect (only mundane items would get blessed, rather than intricate metalwork and whatnot), and more on the effect. Characters would also have a limited capacity of blessings the gods would provide at any one time (i.e. their WBL, or whatever 'wealth' you choose to allow, minus the rest of their stuff), so higher-level characters are rather literally more favored by the gods and recognized as such in-game. Early tribes are often depicted as having a strong religious component, and this would be one way to integrate that.

Or, y'know, you could do something totally different. XD Whatever you think best fits the game you're trying to make.


Okay, I'm using Automatic bonus progression. Now that I know how equipment is done, here is an updated Troglodyte Soldier. I'll check it against the bestiary guidelines to see if any nerfs are needed. Do I have to change the stench DC?

Xulgath Soldier CR 4:

XP 1200
Enlightened Troglodyte Fighter 2
CE Medium Humanoid (Reptilian)
Init +4; Senses Darkvision 90 ft,; Perception +3
Aura stench (30 ft., DC 13, 10 rounds)

Defense:

AC 24, Touch 14, Flat-footed 20 (+4 Dex, +3 armor,+6 natural, +1 attuned)
Hp 51 (2d8 +2d10 +28)
Fort +14, Ref +5, Will +2 (+1 vs. Fear)

Offense:

Speed 30 ft.
Melee Mwk. Macuahuitl +8 (1d8+4/19-20/x2), Bite (1d4+4), Claw x2 (1d4+4)
Ranged Mwk. Atlatl +6 (1d6)

Statistics:

Str 18, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 11
Base Atk +2, CMB +2, CMD +11
Feats; Bludgeoner, Catch Off Guard, Great Fortitude, Intimidating Prowess,
Skills; Climb +9, Handle Animal +10, Intimidate +5, Stealth +6 (+10 Rocky Areas), Perception +3, Survival +6
Languages Common, Draconic,
SQ; Weapon Attunement +1, Armor Attunement +1, Resistance +1
Equipment; Mwk. Atlatl, Atlatl Darts (5), Mwk. Macuahuitl, Mwk. Bone Studded Leather

Also, I thought occured to me about gunslinger. In Ultimate Combat there is the weapon Atlatl. It takes a move action to reload (can be rapid reloaded) so I would probably just homebrew it to adapt the bolt ace archetype, and then allow gunslinger archetypes based off that. If anyone wants to at least. Thank you for all the help so far. Also, GM Rednal. I was considering using occult rituals, but I'll see if I later decide if that fits in.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

The atlatl is such an iconic "primitive" weapon. You might want to use that (and the sling) as the common ranged weapons, and make shortbows and longbows exotic weapons if the PCs are very primitive.

Silver Crusade

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If you don't know the history of the atlatl:

Go to Atlatl Bob.


First off: neat.

I'll second dropping the "broken" English when the humans are talking to each other.

Pre-literate people would've sounded just fine to each other.

"Broken" dialect results from people speaking in an unfamiliar tongue, not in their own.

So it would make sense for it to happen with the Xulgaths (or even better, the Xulgaths just using the wrong words sometimes, because they don't give enough of a damn to learn Human properly).

Illiterate Wizards and other prepared casters would be goblin-style - just pictographs and diagrams and scribbles rather than words.

Also, I'd expect the tribe's divine casters to be really important to the tribes if not the leadership. (Like, if one of the PCs is a divine caster, he or she should probably be one of the tribal heirs. In your example up above, the new chief might be an elder sister.)

Because knowing there's a higher power out there and it really is on your side (or at least willing to help you) would be huge.


This thread makes me think of this race.

:smurfatar:

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