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Since Season 8 starts in about 4 months, I was wondering a couple things...
Would it be possible to extend the hit point table a little bit to include a section for Eidolons, Animal Companions, Familiars, etc.? And in a similar vein, can we expand the Spell Cost section a little bit to include a table showing the cost to scribe spells from a borrowed spell book?
Both of these seem like they should be included in the 'Character Creation' section of the guide, and would benefit new players who might otherwise be overwhelmed trying to find said information on the website.
I'm pretty sure there are other things that have been FAQed over the years that are really amazing for new players to know, but at the same time daunting to find trying to sift through all the message board posts.
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I would like to take the time to expand on the above post and include other rules and rulings that I think need to be in the Role Playing Guild document that are not currently in the guide.
1. How to figure hit points for Eidolons and Animal Companions. Agree with a poster above.
2. How wizards, witches, magus, arcanist, and any class that has a spell book gains access to more spells beside buying a scroll.
3. I would like the section on upgrading magic items to be clearer. What you can upgrade and how to go about doing this should be in the guide.
I realize these things can be found on the website somewhere, but i feel these need to be in one place and the guide to organized play seems like the best place for rules like these.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I think the tier calculation rule could benefit a lot from formatting as bullet points or having a small flow chart next to it.
While we're talking about tiers anyway;
- Make it clearer in which order selection of pregens (& levels) and calculating tiers happens. There have been various threads about this.
- Straighten out the language covering when you can play a pregen, and to which characters you can apply the credit. Currently you're allowed to attach credit to any PC of lower level, even if the PC was of sufficient level to play the adventure. Quite a few GMs struggle against this, but it's there in the guide for scenarios. The language is a lot more muddled for modules however. Again, covered in many threads.
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Just wanted to try to toss this in once again, but a Lite or Printer Friendly version would be great.
Could you please fix the wording about what happens when you are at X.5APL. Currently I says:
Divide the total number of character levels by the number of characters in the party. You should always round to the nearest whole number. If you are exactly at 0.5, let the group decide which subtier they wish to play.
Preferably could we do away completely with the .5 portion, which I find very confusing, an instead replace it with "half" or "mid point", or "in between".
For example: You should always round to the nearest whole number. If you are exactly in between two subtiers, let the group decide which subtier they wish to play.
The last sentence is wrong. For example, if you are at APL1.5 it doesn't matter which way you round, you are playing tier 1-2.
If you have an APL of 1.5, we first round that up to 2 to make a whole number. APL 2 does fit within one of the two subtier options we have, (in this case 1-2), so there is no need to do any other calculations.
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However, lets say we have a party of 5 players, levels 2, 3, 3, 4, and 4.
2+3+3+4+4= 16
16/5= 3.2
.2 is less than 5, so 3.2 rounds down to 3, which is our final APL for that group. Still assuming a Tier 1-5, that does put them at the ".5" mark, right in between both subtiers, and that means the group can decide to "play up" or "play down". The only exception is if the scenario is a Season 0-3, in which case, with five players the must "play down".
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Sample questions that come to mind...
Question: I have stashed together four thousand gold from Society missions. What can I use that gold on during a given scenario? What limits, if any, are there on my expenditures?
Question: What is a 'Fame Requirement' and how does it impact me?
Question: I have ten PP, how much of that can I use to purchase gear or equipment, do I have a limit to how much I can spend?
Question: I got the Glaive of Awesome on my chronicle sheet. I have the gold to buy it, but my Fame isn't high enough. Can I purchase this item?
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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I wonder where to put this, but a clarification of the various Factions need to reference past factions in relation to past seasons. The wording of this assumes that the reader already knows that the current factions used to be those of the regional former factions in the past.
A history of the campaign could also be put up on the web sight in the PFS section.
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Page 36:
Tracking Prestige Points is fairly simple;
it requires you to read over the success conditions and
faction missions entries in the back of the scenario before
play, hand out the faction mission letters after reading out
the Getting Started text at the beginning of the scenario,
and then record whether or not the PCs accomplish these
missions during the scenario.
This needs to be changed.
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I wonder where to put this, but a clarification of the various Factions need to reference past factions in relation to past seasons. The wording of this assumes that the reader already knows that the current factions used to be those of the regional former factions in the past.
I wonder if it's worth turning the current primary/secondary success conditions document into a document for running 'legacy material', and transferring the season 0 rule changes info and faction differences between seasons from the guide to that document.
A history of the campaign could also be put up on the web sight in the PFS section.
Have you seen THIS?
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Determining Subtiers
In order to determine which subtier a mixed-level group of PCs must play in, calculate the group’s average party level (APL). Divide the total number of character levels by the number of characters in the party. You should always round to the nearest whole number. If you are exactly at 0.5, let the group decide which subtier they wish to play.
Starting with Season 4, scenarios are designed for six characters and contain instructions on how to adjust the scenario for four-character parties. When the APL of a table is between two subtiers (like APL 3 for a Tier 1–5 scenario), a party of four characters must play the lower tier without any adjustments for party size. A party of five to seven characters whose APL is between two subtiers must play the higher tier with the four-character adjustment.
For scenarios written in Seasons 0 to 3, when the APL is in between subtiers, a party of six or seven characters must play the higher subtier. Parties with four or five characters must play the lower subtier. In the fringe case where there are no players that are high enough to have reached the subtier level (such as a party of six 3rd level characters), the group may decide to play down to the lower subtier.
Er, no, you've misunderstood the system. The "0.5" of a Tier 1-5 isn't APL 3 (for an APL of 3 there's absolutely no choice for the party, unless they're playing a Season 0-3 with 5+ people of which no one is level 4+), it varies based on party numbers. For instance a group of 4, 4, 3, 3 is APL 3.5. They can choose to round to 3, and thus play down (in Season 4+ they get no adjustment for size), or round to 4 and play up (in Season 4+ they get the 4 player adjustment, obviously). A group of 4, 3, 3, 3 just plays down (APL 3.25) and a group of 5, 4, 3, 3 just plays up (APL 3.75).
The problem is that the sentence should say something like "If you are at exactly 0.5 and rounding up would result in a different subtier than rounding down, let the group decide which subtier they wish to play." As it is you could erroneously conclude that any X.5 allows the subtier to be chosen by the table, which isn't correct.
I think you are confused, unless we are talking about a different portion of the book. But look back at the what the guide says. I've included a full portion for better reference. Note a few things. Firstly, it is talking about how to find the correct Subtier for a mixed level group. The 0.5 is referring to the Subtier, not the APL. That is, if the APL falls into the 0.5 range of the Subtiers, this is how it is handled. There is no reference to "X.5", because it's not referring to the APL, but where the final APL falls in between the Subtiers.
So, for Tier 1-5, there are two Subtiers, (1-2 & 4-5). "3" is the 0.5 of 5, because it doesn't fit into either Subtier. So, before rounding, any APL between 2.5 and 3.4 will be rounded to exactly 3. Note above the "0.5" comes in only after you have already rounded the APL to a full number, so something like APL 3.5 doesn't exist. It's already been rounded up to APL 4, and thus falls within the 4-5 Subtier automatically, regardless of Season or table size. Likewise any APL between 1.0 and 2.4 will automatically round down to APL 1or 2, and fall into the 1-2 Subtier, regardless of Season or table Size, with the one exception being if the party would be forced to play up, but no one is actually high enough level to play in the higher Subtier.
The rest is as you said, adjusted for the season and number of players.
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Per the thread on http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t984&page=1?Recording-Purchases-on-Chronic le-Sheets
Some clarity on the Page 22 "All transactions must be recorded on the scenario’s Chronicle sheet and reflected on your character’s Inventory Tracking Sheet." seems to more imply the chronicle is the primary location instead of a summary box given allows.
Also per the thread, if there are rules that the majority of the GMs are ignoring, then maybe they shouldn't be rules. As an online GM most of mine are similar to Braink2112's level of work to produce.
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Per the thread on http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t984&page=1?Recording-Purchases-on-Chronic le-Sheets
Some clarity on the Page 22 "All transactions must be recorded on the scenario’s Chronicle sheet and reflected on your character’s Inventory Tracking Sheet." seems to more imply the chronicle is the primary location instead of a summary box given allows.
Also per the thread, if there are rules that the majority of the GMs are ignoring, then maybe they shouldn't be rules. As an online GM most of mine are similar to Braink2112's level of work to produce.
This will be clarified.
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I think you are confused, unless we are talking about a different portion of the book. But look back at the what the guide says. I've included a full portion for better reference. Note a few things. Firstly, it is talking about how to find the correct Subtier for a mixed level group. The 0.5 is referring to the Subtier, not the APL. That is, if the APL falls into the 0.5 range of the Subtiers, this is how it is handled. There is no reference to "X.5", because it's not referring to the APL, but where the final APL falls in between the SubtiersNo, it isn't. That paragraph is talking about how to calculate APL. The sentence comes directly after talking about rounding. If it was talking about what to do when you are between subtiers it would say that rather than talking about fractions.
The APL calculation and which Sub-Tier to play and how to assign pregens will be clarified.
We are considering going to some sort of a chart.
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Er, no, you've misunderstood the system. The "0.5" of a Tier 1-5 isn't APL 3 (for an APL of 3 there's absolutely no choice for the party, unless they're playing a Season 0-3 with 5+ people of which no one is level 4+), it varies based on party numbers. For instance a group of 4, 4, 3, 3 is APL 3.5. They can choose to round to 3, and thus play down (in Season 4+ they get no adjustment for size), or round to 4 and play up (in Season 4+ they get the 4 player adjustment, obviously)
Here is the not too atypical party that I've come across. 4, 3, 2, 2, 2.
APL is 2.6 which rounds to 3. Because they have 5 players and at least one player is level 4-5, they are forced to play subtier 4-5, which has made for very difficult encounters.|
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The even more dangerous group, 3,3,3,2,2 is also APL2.6 which rounds to 3. If they are in a season 4+ they have to play high tier with the 4 player adjustment which is likely to be pretty deadly. Season 0-3 they play low tier and roflstomp itHere is the not too atypical party that I've come across. 4, 3, 2, 2, 2.
APL is 2.6 which rounds to 3. Because they have 5 players and at least one player is level 4-5, they are forced to play subtier 4-5, which has made for very difficult encounters.
Both of these scenarios (especially being forced to play up) is just unfair to the player/character. There are a vast number of scenarios that will result in a TPK just because of the expected power level of those playing in a 4-5 tier (or more specifically to my point, being forced into a 6-7 tier).
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That situation gets even stranger when you consider that adding another level 2 character would bring it to APL 2.5, and the players could choose to round down and play low-tier. So subtracting a player from the group raises the tier in a situation where no one is actually in the high tier.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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I think you are confused, unless we are talking about a different portion of the book. But look back at the what the guide says. I've included a full portion for better reference. Note a few things. Firstly, it is talking about how to find the correct Subtier for a mixed level group. The 0.5 is referring to the Subtier, not the APL. That is, if the APL falls into the 0.5 range of the Subtiers, this is how it is handled. There is no reference to "X.5", because it's not referring to the APL, but where the final APL falls in between the Subtiers.
So, for Tier 1-5, there are two Subtiers, (1-2 & 4-5). "3" is the 0.5 of 5, because it doesn't fit into either Subtier. So, before rounding, any APL between 2.5 and 3.4 will be rounded to exactly 3. Note above the "0.5" comes in only after you have already rounded the APL to a full number, so something like APL 3.5 doesn't exist. It's already been rounded up to APL 4, and thus falls within the 4-5 Subtier automatically, regardless of Season or table size. Likewise any APL between 1.0 and 2.4 will automatically round down to APL 1or 2, and fall into the 1-2 Subtier, regardless of Season or table Size, with the one exception being if the party would be forced to play up, but no one is actually high enough level to play in the higher Subtier.
Mike Brock's original post is IMO clearly talking about APL, not subtier. If APL winds up being X.5, the group decides whether to round up or to round down.
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The even more dangerous group, 3,3,3,2,2 is also APL2.6 which rounds to 3. If they are in a season 4+ they have to play high tier with the 4 player adjustment which is likely to be pretty deadly. Season 0-3 they play low tier and roflstomp itHere is the not too atypical party that I've come across. 4, 3, 2, 2, 2.
APL is 2.6 which rounds to 3. Because they have 5 players and at least one player is level 4-5, they are forced to play subtier 4-5, which has made for very difficult encounters.
Which brings up another point. I would advocate for the line: "In the fringe case where there are no players that are high enough to have reached the subtier level (such as a party of six 3rd level characters),
the group may decide to play down to the lower subtier," should be made to apply to all seasons, not just 0-3. In your case, clearly the table should have the option to play down, IMO.|
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Both of these scenarios (especially being forced to play up) is just unfair to the player/character. There are a vast number of scenarios that will result in a TPK just because of the expected power level of those playing in a 4-5 tier (or more specifically to my point, being forced into a 6-7 tier).The even more dangerous group, 3,3,3,2,2 is also APL2.6 which rounds to 3. If they are in a season 4+ they have to play high tier with the 4 player adjustment which is likely to be pretty deadly. Season 0-3 they play low tier and roflstomp itHere is the not too atypical party that I've come across. 4, 3, 2, 2, 2.
APL is 2.6 which rounds to 3. Because they have 5 players and at least one player is level 4-5, they are forced to play subtier 4-5, which has made for very difficult encounters.
The big issue is rounding twice. 2.6 rounds to 3 which then goes to 4-5.
I think that the correct solution is that if the final number is within a subtier you play in that subtier. 2.6 should always be low subtier
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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Something I'd like clarified is calculating APL.
I feel the guide says add the levels and divide by the player count.
But some people think you add the +1 to the APL if there are more than 4 players. It'd just be nice to know exactly which way it works.
I'm pretty confident that the current guide doesn't say to do that. Can you ask those people to show you where in the guide it says you are supposed to add +1 to the APL if there are more than 4 players?
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The big issue is rounding twice. 2.6 rounds to 3 which then goes to 4-5.
I think that the correct solution is that if the final number is within a subtier you play in that subtier. 2.6 should always be low subtier
If determining subtiers used the standard Pathfinder round fractions down rule, that would be correct. But 2.6 is greater than 2, there for not within 1-2. But it doesn't use round down it says round nearest and let the player's choose the direction if it is exactly .5. If the rounded number is between two subtiers then there are additional rules to determine the one the players use, which is based on the number of players.
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Thing is the core book says when calculating APL add 1 if sufficiently large party. And since the guide says, "calculate the group’s average party level (APL). Divide the total number of character levels by
the number of characters in the party. You should always
round to the nearest whole number."
Determine the average level of your player characters—this is their Average Party Level (APL for short). You should round this value to the nearest whole number (this is one of the few exceptions to the round down rule). Note that these encounter creation guidelines assume a group of four or five PCs. If your group contains six or more players, add one to their average level.
So they say that the core rules still apply when figuring out APL. That the wording in the guide is just a summary of the rule and that you should check the actual rule to figure it out.
I don't agree with them, but since I don't enjoy dealing with it I'd love if it was clearer somehow. Maybe changing the wording to not use APL.
In order to determine which subtier a mixed-level group of PCs must play in, divide the total number of character levels by the number of characters in the party and round to the nearest whole number. If you are exactly at 0.5, let the group decide which way to round.
This is less words and makes it clear what you're doing without including any terms to confuse with terms in the core book.
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Something I'd like to see clarified:
Pg 25 - Spellcasting Services
Are spells purchased as described in the relevant CRB entries restricted to the Fame cap? The Fame and Prestige section nebulously refers to resources from the faction, then items you can purchase with gold. If I want to stop at the local temple and purchase a Remove Disease casting (not scroll or potion) for 150gp, can I do that with 4 or fewer Fame?
There are other restrictions placed on spellcasting services in the entry, but it doesn't address Fame at all, despite being on the same page as the Fame purchase limit chart. My inclination is that it is not restricted to Fame, but a clarifying sentence would be appreciated.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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A Clarification on the Sub-Tiers for later seasons vs. the earlier ones, and when a bigger group of six or seven need to run on the higher tier for season 2 and below, with some leeway for big groups for season three, which started the ramp up of encounter difficulty for it and later seasons.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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My concern for tier consideration is the overall adjustment for higher tier (w/ four player adjustment)in later seasons for a five to seven player in mid tier APL. This has, more often than not, ended with GM fiat for escape or a TPK for the party involved for a lot of the Sixth and Seventh season scenarios. (It soured my experience for the first part of the two parter out this season)
This needs adjustment.
Sorry for the multiple posts.
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A Clarification on the Sub-Tiers for later seasons vs. the earlier ones, and when a bigger group of six or seven need to run on the higher tier for season 2 and below, with some leeway for big groups for season three, which started the ramp up of encounter difficulty for it and later seasons.
The sub-tier thing is going to be clarified. But we most likely aren't going to be getting so granular that every season has a different metric.
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3. I would like the section on upgrading magic items to be clearer. What you can upgrade and how to go about doing this should be in the guide
This. Please, please, please.
In particular, an independent list of buying options for each of the 4 types of type of purchase in PFS for buying gear. The four types would be Gold+Always Available, Gold+Fame, Gold+Chronicle Sheet, and Prestige Points.
If possible, make a note regarding the PFS stance on upgrading TO named items, as it seems to be a bit of fuzzy point regarding weapon sizes and the named weapon rules.
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I'll expound later, but there's only two kinds of purchases in PFS: Prestige Points, and everything else.
The flowchart looks like this:
May I buy this item?
Is it always available, or is its price less than or equal to my Fame purchase limit, or is it on one of my chronicle sheets? If we got to say yes to any of these, you may buy the item. If you didn't say yes to any of them, then you may not buy the item.I buy this item if I have enough gold (after potential cost reductions).
That's ALL there is to the purchase rules. What's the challenge?
Except it is in two or three different places and it is very confusing to new players (I'd consider myself a new player having only played for a couple of years in PFS at conventions, PbP, VTT)
Example:
'Always Available Item' +1 Mithril Agile Breastplate
Costs: 5400 gold
It's 'Always available (+1, legit special material)' but when I went to buy it with my gold piled up(5400 gold), I was told I could only buy the mithril breastplate (4400 gold) due to Fame restrictions, by a 5-star GM. So I had to buy the breastplate one scenario and then add the +1 the next...
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I'll expound later, but there's only two kinds of purchases in PFS: Prestige Points, and everything else.
The flowchart looks like this:
May I buy this item?
Is it always available, or is its price less than or equal to my Fame purchase limit, or is it on one of my chronicle sheets? If we got to say yes to any of these, you may buy the item. If you didn't say yes to any of them, then you may not buy the item.I buy this item if I have enough gold (after potential cost reductions).
That's ALL there is to the purchase rules. What's the challenge?
And I'm say the flow chart is really confusing, can we please (please, please) get a proper table for each type of purchase, not a flow chart.
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It's 'Always available (+1, legit special material)' but when I went to buy it with my gold piled up(5400 gold), I was told I could only buy the mithril breastplate (4400 gold) due to Fame restrictions, by a 5-star GM. So I had to buy the breastplate one scenario and then add the +1 the next...
Interesting. I've been told many times that the Fame requirement is based on total value of the item, not the upgrade cost. So you'd have to wait for total fame to meet the total value of the item.
Anyway, yes, completely confusing. Please Separate the methods of purchase so it's very clear what can be purchased with what.
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It's 'Always available (+1, legit special material)' but when I went to buy it with my gold piled up(5400 gold), I was told I could only buy the mithril breastplate (4400 gold) due to Fame restrictions, by a 5-star GM. So I had to buy the breastplate one scenario and then add the +1 the next...Interesting. I've been told many times that the Fame requirement is based on total value of the item, not the upgrade cost. So you'd have to wait for total fame to meet the total value of the item.
Anyway, yes, completely confusing. Please Separate the methods of purchase so it's very clear what can be purchased with what.
The issue here is that none of the things mentioned should require any Fame. Everything is on the Always Available list.
