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So I'm sure a lot of people know and use point buys, but sometimes you'll see threads that talk about how "Oh, you're using an X point buy, of COURSE they're destroying things" or others talking about how certain point buys are literally unplayable, either for certain classes/ideas or just at all.
So given the standard point buy levels (10/15/20/25), at what point do you believe the CR of an encounter should be adjusted? How much of a class's power really is point buy driven? I personally don't think a 20/25 point buy is really even enough to increase CR, maybe a 30, but I wanted to get other people's opinions on the value of a point buy to them and in their games.
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I would say a doubling factor in regards to point-buy. So, the difference between a 10 point buy and a 20 point buy is HUGE; same for a 15-25. Most CRs are determined with a 15 or 20 point buy in mind, so being within a 1 factor of those (10-25) shouldn't alter things too much. 5 and 30 would be the starting points of imbalance.
I always tell people the skill of the player is the key. If he can trounce your game with a 25 point buy he can probably do it with a 15 point buy.
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Only really at the very high end will you get a proper CR increase. And maybe not even then.
All classes get little benefit from high stats not directly connected to their class.
A Fighter with 18 Str, 14 Con/Dex, and 10 Wis/Int, 7 Cha is less well rounded, but no less POWERFUL than one with the same physical stats but a 16 Int and 12 Cha.
Higher stats increase options in small ways, but are generally not going to meaningfully increase power within the confines of the Point Buy system (namely, stats max at 18).
Give everyone an 18 in every stat and you might bump CR by 1 for the extra AC and HP garnered but only extremely MAD classes will see a real power boost, enough to offset the disjointed and usually lower than normal in power nature of the class.
Casters will be largely unaffected, while martials roll around a bit sturdier and with more skills at their disposal.
Depending on the class (you can make a feasible 0 Point-Buy Wizard for instance), the extra 5 point jump from a 15 to a 20 might only be the difference between a 13 to a 14 and a 10 to a 13. People are still limited by the modifiers and the fact that even numbers are valued more heavily. That 13 for all intents and purposes is just as good as a 12 until you hit 4, 8, 12, 16 or 20.
I rolled a ~35 point buy Sorcerer with 4d6 drop lowest, no rerolls (if you retroactively did the buys on it), but its not that much of a difference really from a 20, or even 15 point Sorcerer. I still only have 18 Charisma (with Racials), but I have an extra 4 Strength I wouldn't have had before, which doesn't really do much for me in the long run.
S: 14
D: 16 (With Racial)
C: 14
I: 14
W: 12 (With Racial)
C: 18 (With Racial)
If a Physical (or MAD) character had this spread to assign how they like, they would be much happier with the result.
Basically I feel that point-buys and stats are misleading, and it depends more heavily on the class than the buy itself.
Look at the math.
What sort of increase is required to increase the effective CR of the PCs?
An absolute minimum is +1 to hit, damage and all saves, so that would generally mean enough of an increase to bump at least 4 stats by +2.
Creative Director
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Look at the math.
What sort of increase is required to increase the effective CR of the PCs?
An absolute minimum is +1 to hit, damage and all saves, so that would generally mean enough of an increase to bump at least 4 stats by +2.
Actaully... CR is not a great mechanic to measure PC effectiveness by. CR is 100% a value of how effective a monster or NPC is against a PC. Nothing more.
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Actaully... CR is not a great mechanic to measure PC effectiveness by. CR is 100% a value of how effective a monster or NPC is against a PC. Nothing more.Look at the math.
What sort of increase is required to increase the effective CR of the PCs?
An absolute minimum is +1 to hit, damage and all saves, so that would generally mean enough of an increase to bump at least 4 stats by +2.
Huh, this is an interesting statement. So by this statement, what's more important here is the PCs becoming more resistant to the creature's ability to negatively impact it rather than the increased offense granted by higher stats. I mean that's an obvious simplification of a much more nuanced issue, but it is interesting to hear it put like that.
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No, I think the point is that while a higher point-buy allows a more effective PC/NPC/monster, it doesn't guarantee it.
I've mentioned elsewhen that the campaigns I play/DM, we do 25-point build but with the stipulation that we want to see well-rounded characters. A fighter who has the points to invest in Int 14 to pick up some skills and languages, as well as Cha 14 to actually be able to be social isn't worthy of a CR change. On the other hand, when you let someone max/min and give them more tools to do so... CR varies.
You can't judge CR by point-buy. You judge CR by combat effectiveness, which is a LOT of different things, of which point-buy is but one minor factor.
Actaully... CR is not a great mechanic to measure PC effectiveness by. CR is 100% a value of how effective a monster or NPC is against a PC. Nothing more.Look at the math.
What sort of increase is required to increase the effective CR of the PCs?
An absolute minimum is +1 to hit, damage and all saves, so that would generally mean enough of an increase to bump at least 4 stats by +2.
Same thing just stated in a different way.
The original question is essentially "At what point buy do I treat the PCs as one level higher for determining balanced encounters based on CR?"
Or to reverse it, "What is the point buy for NPCs to increase their CR?"
Either way it comes out the same.
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The Advanced Simple Template is +4 to all stats and a +2 Natural Armor bonus. It adds +1 to CR, and that's about right.
Stat bonuses less than that don't meaningfully raise CR/APL in my experience. Player skill can raise effective APL immensely, as mentioned, but any of the typical point-buys? Nah.
The advanced template is an example of CR not being a great judge of level adjustments.
My favorite example of this is a template with just fast healing 1. Such a creature wouldn't have any CR adjustment, as it will only have a couple more effective hit points than a similar creature when encountered. But that ability in the hands of a player means you will start almost every encounter with full health, which is a pretty good thing to have.
The Advanced Simple Template is +4 to all stats and a +2 Natural Armor bonus. It adds +1 to CR, and that's about right.
Stat bonuses less than that don't meaningfully raise CR/APL in my experience. Player skill can raise effective APL immensely, as mentioned, but any of the typical point-buys? Nah.
Hm. This makes sense. Overall, +2 to hit, +2 or +3 to hurt, +2 to all saves, +4 armour class (evenly split between touch and flatfoot), and +2 to DCs to things. And +2 HP per die.
I don't think many point-buy systems allow for this.
Honestly, I rolled the best in a 4d6 drop lowest set for my group, and I don't think I'm completely overpowering things. (I rolled 16/14/16/13/10/8, human melee so +2 Str). Yes, my barbarian is murdering things in melee..well, that's what she's SUPPOSED to do. I don't think dropping those scores will change her or the party that much. (Nor would a modest boost to those Wis and Cha scores either.)
Hm. This makes sense. Overall, +2 to hit, +2 or +3 to hurt, +2 to all saves, +4 armour class (evenly split between touch and flatfoot), and +2 to DCs to things. And +2 HP per die.
The issue here is that +4 to AC is a huge deal.
While a player may get +1 or +2 to attack rolls at most from having higher than average point-buy (though doubtful, as if they are attacking, they probably already had a 16-18), they will almost never be able to make up that extra 2 AC that the Advanced Template has provided.Be careful with the Advanced Template.
If anything I would add more mooks and maybe bump the enemy Action Economy Higher.
Hm. This makes sense. Overall, +2 to hit, +2 or +3 to hurt, +2 to all saves, +4 armour class (evenly split between touch and flatfoot), and +2 to DCs to things. And +2 HP per die.
The issue here is that +4 to AC is a huge deal.
While a player may get +1 or +2 to attack rolls at most from having higher than average point-buy (though doubtful, as if they are attacking, they probably already had a 16-18), they will almost never be able to make up that extra 2 AC that the Advanced Template has provided.Be careful with the Advanced Template.
If anything I would add more mooks and maybe bump the enemy Action Economy Higher.
I was only agreeing with the idea of that being worth an actual CR increase--remember, CR is 'what level should a party of 4-5 PCs be to take this thing on?', if memory serves. As in '5 points at character gen are NOT going to match this, especially if you're using them for making Fiona the Fighter actually useful out of combat'.
The Advanced Simple Template is +4 to all stats and a +2 Natural Armor bonus. It adds +1 to CR, and that's about right.
Stat bonuses less than that don't meaningfully raise CR/APL in my experience. Player skill can raise effective APL immensely, as mentioned, but any of the typical point-buys? Nah.
I don't disagree exactly, but there is quite a difference between adjusting the CR of a single creature up one and giving bonuses to and entire party that make them more of a threat.
+2 to a primary stat and +4 to a secondary stat for 4 creatures isn't all that dissimilar to +4 to six stats on one creature in terms of how much can be dished out and taken.
The Advanced Simple Template is +4 to all stats and a +2 Natural Armor bonus. It adds +1 to CR, and that's about right.
Stat bonuses less than that don't meaningfully raise CR/APL in my experience. Player skill can raise effective APL immensely, as mentioned, but any of the typical point-buys? Nah.
I don't disagree exactly, but there is quite a difference between adjusting the CR of a single creature up one and giving bonuses to and entire party that make them more of a threat.
+2 to a primary stat and +4 to a secondary stat for 4 creatures isn't all that dissimilar to +4 to six stats on one creature in terms of how much can be dished out and taken.
Sticking the Advanced Simple Template on all the creatures in an encounter increases the CR of that encounter by 1. Likewise, sticking the Advanced Simple Template on the entire party of PCs increases their APL by 1, since APL is directly related to the party's calculated CR. If we use the Advanced Simple Template as a guideline for what sort of point buy should increase CR, you *might* get an increase if every PC has straight 18s preracial.
Actually, lets look at that in detail.
Most PCs have about 18 in a primary stat and 14s in 2 or 3 secondary stats that they care about. With straight 18s, this amounts to a +2 to their primary stat, +4 to a bunch of secondary stats, and +{a lot} to {things we don't really care about}. Yep, the Advanced Simple Template is a fair bit better than virtually any possible point buy. If the Advanced Simple template is roughly right for +1CR, then even the most ridiculous point buys fall short of earning a +1CR.
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I don't disagree exactly, but there is quite a difference between adjusting the CR of a single creature up one and giving bonuses to and entire party that make them more of a threat.
+2 to a primary stat and +4 to a secondary stat for 4 creatures isn't all that dissimilar to +4 to six stats on one creature in terms of how much can be dished out and taken.
I disagree. I've built NPCs as threats, and used the Advanced Simple Template to do so on occasion, and have certainly used higher point-buy in those same circumstances.
IME, higher point buy should be rolled into 'PC level GP' to make characters their Level in CR rather than Level-1, and that's what I do with NPCs.
PCs given extra point-buy just don't wind up notably better at anything except maybe one Save they're bad at and with some extra skills.
For example:
15 point-buy Barbarian:
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 15 Int 7 Wis 11 Cha 7
25 point-buy Barbarian:
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 15 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 7
That's literally 2 skills a level and +1 to one Save in difference.
Let's examine a 15 point-buy Wizard:
Str 7 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 20 Wis 11 Cha 7
25 point-buy Wizard:
Str 7 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 20 Wis 14 Cha 7
So...+1 AC, +1 Reflex, +2 Will Save in difference between the two.
Now, less optimized characters definitely benefit a little more...but generally not a lot (since people tend to make equally optimized characters in terms of their tendency to do so regardless of what point-buy they use).
And none of that is even close to making a CR's worth of difference.
High point buy opens up more character options. On a zero point buy, you're playing a pet caster and that's it.
I've generally found that higher point buys don't make a character significantly more powerful, as several people have mentioned. While the increased effectiveness is most pronounced in MAD classes, those are generally less powerful than SAD classes anyway.
Honestly, diminishing returns means that even at a 25 PB, a pre-racial 18 isn't really worth it for anything other than a full caster. Even a pre-racial 16 is pushing things.
Especially because in the long run your starting stats aren't as meaningful as all the other boosts and bonuses you can apply as you level up.
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I think a more relevant question might be, how does point buy affect APL - Average Party Level.
For example, you have 4 PCs using the default 'Standard Fantasy' 15pt buy.
4 X 15 = 60 points for character creation.
Next you have 5 PCs using the PFS standard 'High Fantasy' 20pt buy.
5 X 20 = 100 points for character creation.
Finally, you have 5 PCs using the 'Epic Fantasy' 25pt buy.
5 X 25 = 125 points for character creation.
Looking at these numbers, I would say that anything that boosts the total PC ability buy points by 25 or more could result in a +1 increase to APL.
Note also that the difference between 4 and 5 PCs is probably more significant a boost to power then upping the point buy. Also, the terms for the different point buys are misleading. Generally, higher point buys don't produce a game with more or less fantasy, they just produce PCs who are generally better at what they do. For some groups, this will add versatility, others will will have PCs that are better at the things they are already good at. Either way, more ability points = less challenge for the PCs.
Again, the specific build matters enough that there's no way to trivially quantify this. Same goes with wealth-by-level. If one PC is given extra gold and spends it on a flying carpet that gets used once in a while, and another PC spends theirs on giving their weapons more offensive capability, how can you measure that?
James was pretty clear. The construction of a particular statblock conveys its appropriate CR. You can't look at any one (or two) figure on it to judge that.
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I think a more relevant question might be, how does point buy affect APL - Average Party Level.
For example, you have 4 PCs using the default 'Standard Fantasy' 15pt buy.
4 X 15 = 60 points for character creation.Next you have 5 PCs using the PFS standard 'High Fantasy' 20pt buy.
5 X 20 = 100 points for character creation.Finally, you have 5 PCs using the 'Epic Fantasy' 25pt buy.
5 X 25 = 125 points for character creation.
The issue with this is that points aren't equally valuable no matter who has them. Going from a 16 to an 18 costs more than going from a 10 to a 14, so piling points on people who already have them is less effective than giving them to someone new.
Additionally, action economy is a hell of a thing, and probably one of the most powerful things in the game, so adding characters is a much bigger deal than simply adding points to the existing ones (your method makes them identical if they add equivalent points). Six 15-point characters have only 90 points total, but will almost certainly win any fight they have with 4 25-point or even 30 point characters (who have 100 or 120 points among them) of the same level and with equal levels of optimization. And that makes your whole argument sorta fall apart, IMO.
Remember, adding two characters raises APL by 1. If the amount of point buy you get isn't at least as good as having two extra characters in the party (and basically no amount of point-buy is that good) it doesn't raise APL.
Now, if you have 5 characters and really high point buy (maybe as low as 25, but no lower, probably higher) maybe the point-buy is as good as one extra character and you should raise the APL...but I doubt it even then.
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Dropping point buy below 15 has more effect. 5 is probably low enough to be -1 APL. You have to really scrimp to get even a wizard working at full power and martials are definitely not going to reach their stat cap.
This is probably true. 10 is sorta the minimum for basic functonality in the system.
I dunno, 8-12-12-16-10-8 as a human is a pretty squishy, but still ultimately a pretty functional wizard and that's without dumping all the way down to 7 with anything either.
Heck, I'll go even further:I think you could even get away with playing a 1 PB wizard at 8-12-10-16-10-7 as a human.
I dunno, 8-12-12-16-10-8 as a human is a pretty squishy, but still ultimately a pretty functional wizard and that's without dumping all the way down to 7 with anything either.
Heck, I'll go even further:I think you could even get away with playing a 1 PB wizard at 8-12-10-16-10-7 as a human.
Dual Talent Human 0 Point-Buy Wizard
Strength: 7Dexterity: 13+2
Constitution: 12
Intelligence: 15+2
Wisdom: 7
Charisma: 7
Fairly functional all things considering. Could even drop the Dexterity to 10 and move those points to Intelligence (and shift the Dual Talent around if you want) if you really want those DCs.