Why do Kineticists only channel power through their hands?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I never understood this rule.
They must aim using a free hand and can only Gather Power if their hands are free.
Technically I can really screw a Kineticist over if I put their hands in boxing gloves.

Is it really game breaking if a Kineticist used something other than his hands to blast or gather power?
Would having one use his mouth or eyes break the class?


Depends on if using eyes or mouth still consumed one of the metaphorical hands.


To prevent them from holding and being able to activate items while blasting.

You'll also notice that the "their hands" rule prevents the use of both the held kineticist items while blasting, which makes one utterly useless and the other one really pointless.


It's all about balance. And in regards to the kineticist-based items, I believe that Mark weighed on that a while back and said that those would be allowed; however, I would have to search for his post.

Also, you can hold something in one hand and blast alllll day long. You simply cannot gather power unless both hands are free.


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Because hip thrusts would never be shown on primetime.


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I know a gnome water kineticist who has to use his hands to hold is .... um well never mind.


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If they could use their hands freely for other things, you could dual wield tower shields for bi-directional total cover and use a snaking touch attack blast with your feet. The AC and cover bonuses would make you nearly untouchable, and not sacrifice your damage at all.

You could also use blasts while grappled (most of the time) and with your hands bound, so there would be few if any non magical ways to properly "disarm" you. At least a monk can be shackled hand to foot, until they use escape artist.

You can currently wear a buckler, but only get the bonus if you don't gather (which means you basically can't use the ranged full attack). You can't duel wield a sword and a kinetic whip unless you can draw the weapon between creating kinetic whip and using it, unless you don't gather and thus lose power.

You can't use a conductive bow easily, though a crossbow is arguable if you don't gather or can draw quickly.

There's a lot of restriction that I can see keeping power level in check because of this decision.


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Because we can't have nice things.

Grand Lodge

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Because of typical Paizo editing; there is no reason, only no fun allowed.


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Or perhaps it is in part due to where some of the inspiration for this class originates? 90+% of the time, you did not see any 'bender' have anything in their hands, correct?
Quit whining about 'no fun' or 'can't have nice things' and play! This class has a fair amount of flexibility because it is the least feat-intensive class out there. How about we exalt in what we CAN do rather than pout about what we can't?
Too much "half empty" attitudes around here...

</end rant>


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Fourshadow wrote:

Or perhaps it is in part due to where some of the inspiration for this class originates? 90+% of the time, you did not see any 'bender' have anything in their hands, correct?

Quit whining about 'no fun' or 'can't have nice things' and play! This class has a fair amount of flexibility because it is the least feat-intensive class out there. How about we exalt in what we CAN do rather than pout about what we can't?
Too much "half empty" attitudes around here...

</end rant>

Or we could just not be satisfied with mediocrity.

Reach for the stars, don't settle for less.


So why would a kineticist lose the buckler AC if he gather's energy?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Chess Pwn wrote:
So why would a kineticist lose the buckler AC if he gather's energy?

Just like Spell casting requires one to move their hands in arcane patterns, to gather energy, one must perform complex gestures to make sure it functions.

IE: You are not able to hold the shield in front of you while using your hand for something else. The same reason you don't get a buckler's bonus while using a 2 handed weapon.


Buckler
This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn.

Gather energy
If she has both hands free (or all of her prehensile appendages free, for unusual kineticists), a kineticist can gather energy or elemental matter as a move action.

A buckler lets you have both hands free to gather so you can gather as a move action. Then your gathering is done and you do your blast. You're not using a weapon in your off hand nor are you doing somatic components for a spell with your bucklered hand. So where are you getting the support to say you'd lose your buckler AC?

The Exchange

Convince the GM to let you waste a feat slot on something really stupid - the ability to concentrate energy in your mouth. Or with your feet. Or - No! No. Just your mouth or your feet. Nowhere else. That would be going too far.


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Needing hands free doesn't imply channeling through your hands. As so.


Shiroi wrote:

If they could use their hands freely for other things, you could dual wield tower shields for bi-directional total cover and use a snaking touch attack blast with your feet. The AC and cover bonuses would make you nearly untouchable, and not sacrifice your damage at all.

You could also use blasts while grappled (most of the time) and with your hands bound, so there would be few if any non magical ways to properly "disarm" you. At least a monk can be shackled hand to foot, until they use escape artist.

You can currently wear a buckler, but only get the bonus if you don't gather (which means you basically can't use the ranged full attack). You can't duel wield a sword and a kinetic whip unless you can draw the weapon between creating kinetic whip and using it, unless you don't gather and thus lose power.

You can't use a conductive bow easily, though a crossbow is arguable if you don't gather or can draw quickly.

There's a lot of restriction that I can see keeping power level in check because of this decision.

That shield guy sounds like a very edge case. Like the old 3.0 Whirlwind-bag-o-rats trick.

All you have to do to "disarm" a kineticist is stick their hands in a boxing glove. Any other spell caster has at least some spells that are verbal only, or can use the Still spell feat.
I see nothing over powering about dual wielding a sword and energy whip.


Fourshadow wrote:

Or perhaps it is in part due to where some of the inspiration for this class originates? 90+% of the time, you did not see any 'bender' have anything in their hands, correct?

Quit whining about 'no fun' or 'can't have nice things' and play! This class has a fair amount of flexibility because it is the least feat-intensive class out there. How about we exalt in what we CAN do rather than pout about what we can't?
Too much "half empty" attitudes around here...

</end rant>

You don't see anything in their hands because their forms are based on unarmed combat. Since kineticists don't all learn martial arts as part of their ability to 'bend', it's a moot point.

Further more Toph DID sometimes bend using just her feet. And that old earth bender ruler (whose name I forget right now) could bend just using his face!

If we're going with examples of energy users, how about Alex Summers? He could generate blasts with his hands, chest or mouth. As for other "energy absorbers" in fiction, I don't think I've ever seen one that could only draw in through their hands. I've them use seen mouth, chest or most often, from all over their body simultaneously.


Natan Linggod 327 wrote:
Fourshadow wrote:

Or perhaps it is in part due to where some of the inspiration for this class originates? 90+% of the time, you did not see any 'bender' have anything in their hands, correct?

Quit whining about 'no fun' or 'can't have nice things' and play! This class has a fair amount of flexibility because it is the least feat-intensive class out there. How about we exalt in what we CAN do rather than pout about what we can't?
Too much "half empty" attitudes around here...

</end rant>

You don't see anything in their hands because their forms are based on unarmed combat. Since kineticists don't all learn martial arts as part of their ability to 'bend', it's a moot point.

Further more Toph DID sometimes bend using just her feet. And that old earth bender ruler (whose name I forget right now) could bend just using his face!

If we're going with examples of energy users, how about Alex Summers? He could generate blasts with his hands, chest or mouth. As for other "energy absorbers" in fiction, I don't think I've ever seen one that could only draw in through their hands. I've them use seen mouth, chest or most often, from all over their body simultaneously.

Freedom of movement/liberating command/skill points in escape artist would all mitigate the hands concern.

Now we are looking to Marvel Comics for our fantasy RPG? While I am a fan of Marvel characters, no thank you to bringing them to Pathfinder.
Every class has limits to some degree or another.

Dark Archive

I like to picture Gather Power as the kineticist literally reaching into the elemental plane and pulling the elemental power/matter into the prime material plane. This is something that takes both hands to do. At least, it does if you want to have enough elemental matter/energy gathered fast enough to be useful.

And really, is this that big of a drawback? What exactly does your kineticist need to be wielding so badly? You have no need for a ranged weapon, you have a rather awesome one at all times. With the right infusions you don't need to worry about a melee weapon either. And depending on wild talents, you can have quite the array of capabilities.


Fourshadow: Marvel has several magic based characters. DC has even more.
Have you never build a character or villain based on a comic character?
Used them for inspiration? If not, I suggest you crack open some comics (and your mind) and have a look. There's some great material there.

Kahel:
It's not so much that it's a drawback but a pointless limitation. It makes no sense to me that wild talents that require no somatic components can be stymied by gluing their hands to a cup. It would make more sense to me if whatever a kineticist was holding in the hand doing the blasting, took damage from the blast.

The gathering power through the palms thing just grates. Especially since they're drawing power from another plane. Having that planes power spontaneously appear outside their body first then be drawn into it seems ludicrous to me. It makes more sense to me for it to be drawn straight into their bodies from the planes (with some spilling out thus causing the visual display).

Personally, I would have the kineticist choose at first level, which body part they channel blasts through, like the mouth, hands, eyes, forehead or chest. And the gather power just works through their whole body. I would also say that anything that blocks interplanar travel, blocks the gather power effect.


Every arcane spell-casting/spell-like class has limitations. If you want to avoid somatic components, go psychic--but you will have to deal with emotions instead.
To say that an RPG class has something 'ludicrous' is rather amusing, since this is fantasy to begin with...to the real world, it is ALL ludicrous.
Oh, and nice backdoor personal attack there, Natan ["crack open some comics (and your mind) and have a look."] Obviously, since I knew Havoc was Marvel, I've done the comic book reading. Just don't need them much for my fantasy role-playing. Please note that I managed to communicate my intent without resorting to personal attacks/insults.


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Finger cuffs, my only weakness, NOOOOO!

(whole heartedly agree with whole body power gather, and letting kineticists blast from other parts of their body, though certain ones are..unseemly?)

Silver Crusade

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Look, if I learned anything from Dragon Ball Z, it's that only EVIL people shoot energy from places other than their hands. Do you WANT an evil class?[/sarcasm]

Really, I don't mind the limitation, although for flavor purposes as long as players have their hands free and uninhibited, I'd be fine with them saying their blast came from whatever, as the idea of shooting stones out of your eyes seems hilarious and awesome to me. Same with using kicks to launch flames like Zuko and crew. I figure the hand thing is just balancing mechanics, which are fine to me.


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Fourshadow wrote:

Every arcane spell-casting/spell-like class has limitations. If you want to avoid somatic components, go psychic--but you will have to deal with emotions instead.

To say that an RPG class has something 'ludicrous' is rather amusing, since this is fantasy to begin with...to the real world, it is ALL ludicrous.
Oh, and nice backdoor personal attack there, Natan ["crack open some comics (and your mind) and have a look."] Obviously, since I knew Havoc was Marvel, I've done the comic book reading. Just don't need them much for my fantasy role-playing. Please note that I managed to communicate my intent without resorting to personal attacks/insults.

It actually wasn't meant as an attack. Apologies if it came out that way. But dismissing comics as a source of inspiration for a fantasy game bugged me. Especially since this fantasy game has androids and laser guns in it. NO source for inspiration should be off limits.

As for limitations, the Kineticist already has them. Burn and very limited "spells" (talents), which can't be changed once chosen.

And yes, something can be ludicrous even in an RPG. So I don't know what your point is there. That nothing can be considered ludicrous?

Dark Archive

If we're going to be silly and use comics for examples, I'll pull out the ULTIMATE example of Gather Power.... The spirit bomb from Dragonball Z.

To gather the power for a spirit bomb Goku has to extend both hands into the sky with his arms spread apart and legs at shoulder width. Doesn't matter if he's on the ground, in the air, or floating in space. He needs to preform this pose. He then has to Gather Power for at least 15 minutes, usually 30 minutes or more. If anything hits him, he has to start all over again.

Now, my mental image with Kahel is that she's literally reaching into the elemental plane of air and pulling elemental matter to her. Thus needing both hands, one to reach into the elemental plane and the other to hold the growing mass of elemental power. Or maybe it's a tai chi like movement of both hands in a complicated pattern that draws elemental energy to her.

I like my mental image more though.


Nothing silly about using comics as modern examples of fantasy stories.

Hellblazer for example works great for the Occultist.

It's great that for your specific character, using her hands to gather power works.

However we're not all playing the same character.

For the Aether master I have as an npc, grabbing aether with his hands makes no sense. Reaching out mentally and becoming "one with the winds of the aether, allowing them to wash over and through" him, ie all over body Gather Power, makes much more thematic sense.


Iroh of Avatar gathers power by breathing and can expel it in a cone like dragon's breath through his mouth. Fire benders can shoot fire with their feet. Air benders only require some method of movement to be able to bend air. In Korra, there's a water bender with no arms but bends water to look like a kraken with multiple limbs. Earth benders stamp out with their feet their element. And this is just the Avatar universe. There's plenty of examples in other literature of energy users doing so without hands. I get that there's an issue of balance, but it makes little expository sense.


I see it as both a flavor reason and balance reason. And honestly, not being able to hold something doesn't really hurt the class. I'd even argue that the boxing gloves wouldn't stop it. They can GP and attack while wearing regular gloves. I wear a cestus so I can threaten my squares.

Shadow Lodge

How do we feel about a feat that would allow a Kineticist to manipulate elements without using their hands? That would allow a larger stylistic range but also impose a mechanical cost for removing a limitation from the class.


Weirdo wrote:
How do we feel about a feat that would allow a Kineticist to manipulate elements without using their hands? That would allow a larger stylistic range but also impose a mechanical cost for removing a limitation from the class.

Maybe. It would depend on how it was worded and what all it covered. Is it just for using a blast with a foot or by spitting it out the mouth? Does it cover gathering power? If so, what happens if you're tied up? What is the method to shut down a Kineticist with this feat? You've got all sorts of spells and abilities that shut down other classes. Not being evil against a Paladin. Flying vs a Fighter without a ranged weapon. Living creatures against a chanel specialist Cleric. Wind Wall. Immunity to precision damage and critical hits. Etc.

Shadow Lodge

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Energy resistance and DR are also significant limitations for the Kineticist. Casters usually have an easier time switching energy types and martials can use backup weapons or enchant their weapons to get through DR.

How about:

Versatile Kinetic Form
You have learned unusual methods for using your body to manipulate the elements.
Prerequisite: Kineticist
Benefit: You may aim a blast or gather power without having free hands. Instead, you make appropriate motions with other parts of your body, such as legs, head, tail, or wings. You must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMD + effective spell level of blast) to gather power while grappled. If you fail this check by 5 or more you not only fail to gather energy but lose control of it and must accept a number of points of burn equal to the number of points by which your gathered power would have reduced the burn cost. You still may not gather power or aim a blast while pinned, paralyzed, or otherwise immobilized.
Normal: You must have one hand free to aim a blast, and both hands free to gather power.

And maybe a second version allowing you to use talents when immobilized, either at lower power or by taking on extra burn. This would be analogous to a Stilled, Silent spell.

Liberty's Edge

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Katie the Kineticist: Well, yeah, I mean, I can fly with my fire blasts. I just need both of my hands free.
Freddy the Fighter: To fly.
Katie: Yep.
Rita the Rogue: Not even straight up, just fly from, say, Whitecliff to Marchwall.
Katie: True.
Freddy: You need two hands for this.
Katie: Kineticist's Guild rules.
Rita: Hey, you don't get to make up a Kineticist's Guild just because there's a Thieves' Guild. Which does not exist and I am totally not a member of, by and by.
Katie: Well, we used to be able to use our feet and eyes when we were experimenting with kinesis blasts.
Freddy: And?
Katie: Let's just say the first aerokineticists took "fart lightning and crap thunder" waaaaaaay too literally.


Snorb wrote:

Katie the Kineticist: Well, yeah, I mean, I can fly with my fire blasts. I just need both of my hands free.

Freddy the Fighter: To fly.
Katie: Yep.
Rita the Rogue: Not even straight up, just fly from, say, Whitecliff to Marchwall.
Katie: True.
Freddy: You need two hands for this.
Katie: Kineticist's Guild rules.
Rita: Hey, you don't get to make up a Kineticist's Guild just because there's a Thieves' Guild. Which does not exist and I am totally not a member of, by and by.
Katie: Well, we used to be able to use our feet and eyes when we were experimenting with kinesis blasts.
Freddy: And?
Katie: Let's just say the first aerokineticists took "fart lightning and crap thunder" waaaaaaay too literally.

Well the whole empty hands bit is for the blasts and gather power. It doesn't specify for utility wild talents and it shows since you can't even use gather power to reduce the burn costs of utility wild talents anyways.


Weirdo:
Not bad. I'd prefer an option built in for body part choice but that's not bad.

Although, your wording "make appropriate motions", do Kinetecists have to make any motions at all to use their blasts? Cos if they have somatic components then just use the rules for that.

Scarab Sages

Sooner or later someone was going to release elemental power out of his butt. Paizo was wise to shoot down this idea before it could materialize.


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Three words.

Electric pissing contests.


Fourshadow wrote:

Or perhaps it is in part due to where some of the inspiration for this class originates? 90+% of the time, you did not see any 'bender' have anything in their hands, correct?

The main character uses a staff for a good portion of the series.

Including using it as a glider and creating his own updrafts just by turning his head and exhaling.

Plus everything else mentioned (Bumi especially as a good example of bending by WIGGLING AN EYEBROW). Almost ALL Earth Benders used primarily the feet.

And Sparky Sparky Boom Boom Man did it just by glaring at someone really hard and clenching his forehead.

No horse in the "should they or shouldn't they be able to?" race, but saying they shouldn't because the show which in large part inspired the class required hands is false.


Carrie and Firestarter were just as big an influence as The Last Airbender.

Dark Archive

Heck, the idea of hydrokinesis, electrokinesis, and so forth isn't even originated in Firestarter, Carrie, and Avatar: The Last Airbender. That said, many depictions of various kinetic abilities over the years have involved using the hands. Either to hold the forehead while focusing, or waving your hand(s) around to actually direct the energy being manipulated.

Also, that's a big "NO" for being able to use any body part you want for kinetic blasts and gathering power. I can already see the immature kids (of any age) who would piss fire and fart lightning.


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Kahel Stormbender wrote:

Also, that's a big "NO" for being able to use any body part you want for kinetic blasts and gathering power. I can already see the immature kids (of any age) who would piss fire and fart lightning.

And why does this keep coming up?

Immature people will be immature. Why base mechanics off of that?

It's just kind of confusing.

You can already do a billion similar things, starting with just making a really perverted character to begin with, or pelvic thrust Hamatula Grasp-ing with a Monk, and so on.

Somehow I doubt Paizo would have written the class with "First and foremost we have to stop people from being immature" in mind.


Why must wizards/clerics/sorcerers/etc use their hands for the majority of their spells (those with somatic components)?

Why can't they perform those functions with their feet?

Maybe the requirement of free hand(s) was considered a balancing factor for all the above (unable to use a weapon and shield while also casting, the ability for NPC's to successfully detain you by tying up your hands, etc).

They should probably provide a "Stilled Kinetic Blast" to equal Still Spell, following the precedent of Quicken/Empower/Maximize Spelllike Ability feats (usable 3/day or something).

Maybe an option to Gather Energy without hands by taking longer actions.

Dark Archive

Well, many spells probably require maneuvering your fingers in ways that is kinda impossible for most beings to do with their toes.

Bewitched and I Dream Of Jeanie are rare exceptions to this trope of magic use.

And to be honest, I've been wondering since Occult Adventurers came out if you could apply normal metamagic feats to a kinetic blast, or only ones via metakinesis and the SLA specific metamagics.

For thematic reasons I'd love to know if you can apply Merciful Spell for example to your kinetic blasts.


Chess Pwn wrote:
So why would a kineticist lose the buckler AC if he gather's energy?

Because bucklers, even more so than larger shields, need to actively wielded to get their AC benefit. Which means the arm, and by extension the hand attached, are not free.


Easy answer, they don't!

Kinetic Blasts and Gather Power require you to have free hands, they do not however, require you to use those hands as your Kinetic Blast source.

Gather Power requires you to have all your body free to guide the elements in a similar way to Avatar. You are using your motions to guide the elements. It doesn't mean your hands are the source of that power.

In a similar way you only need one hand free to "guide" Kinetic Blasts. That doesn't mean you can't shoot fire out of your feet or do immature pee jokes. It just means you need a hand free to direct the stream. It could be holding two fingers up to your head, rough miming, or martial arts. Regardless of if that martial art is heavy into kicking.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
So why would a kineticist lose the buckler AC if he gather's energy?
Because bucklers, even more so than larger shields, need to actively wielded to get their AC benefit. Which means the arm, and by extension the hand attached, are not free.

FAQ or errata on this? Bucklers have a set number of ways you lose their bonus, and gather power is not one of them.

Shadow Lodge

Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

Weirdo:

Not bad. I'd prefer an option built in for body part choice but that's not bad.

Although, your wording "make appropriate motions", do Kinetecists have to make any motions at all to use their blasts? Cos if they have somatic components then just use the rules for that.

The text doesn't actually require motions, though I and many posters here find some form of gesturing appropriate. I also visualize abilities like Dervish Dance as involving using a free hand in a specific way as a counterbalance, instead of just not using that hand.

I was inspired by somatic components, but I don't think kineticists abilities would have them even if they involved gesturing, since they aren't actually spells.

Scarab Sages

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I'm actually rather glad I need never fear being in a game with an overweight, INT-7 Catfolk pyrokineticist (or worse, terrakineticist) named Stimpson whose blasts are channeled out his bum.


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The Mortonator wrote:

Easy answer, they don't!

Kinetic Blasts and Gather Power require you to have free hands, they do not however, require you to use those hands as your Kinetic Blast source.

Gather Power requires you to have all your body free to guide the elements in a similar way to Avatar. You are using your motions to guide the elements. It doesn't mean your hands are the source of that power.

In a similar way you only need one hand free to "guide" Kinetic Blasts. That doesn't mean you can't shoot fire out of your feet or do immature pee jokes. It just means you need a hand free to direct the stream. It could be holding two fingers up to your head, rough miming, or martial arts. Regardless of if that martial art is heavy into kicking.

Ah, such refreshing reason. Thank you for saying it so much better than I could, Mortonator. More accurately, too.

I would say this thread is about done, IMNSHO.


The Mortonator wrote:

Easy answer, they don't!

Kinetic Blasts and Gather Power require you to have free hands, they do not however, require you to use those hands as your Kinetic Blast source.

Gather Power requires you to have all your body free to guide the elements in a similar way to Avatar. You are using your motions to guide the elements. It doesn't mean your hands are the source of that power.

In a similar way you only need one hand free to "guide" Kinetic Blasts. That doesn't mean you can't shoot fire out of your feet or do immature pee jokes. It just means you need a hand free to direct the stream. It could be holding two fingers up to your head, rough miming, or martial arts. Regardless of if that martial art is heavy into kicking.

So Kinetecist blasts have somatic components then? Like spells?

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