If Fast Learner were a universal bonus feat irrespective of race or Int, would your characters take advantage of it to get the +1 HP and +1 skill rank, or would they skip those and choose an alternative favored class bonus anyway?
Only if I had already taken toughness, then I might consider it, if skill points were high on the needed resource list for the build.
If Fast Learner were a universal bonus feat irrespective of race or Int, would your characters take advantage of it to get the +1 HP and +1 skill rank, or would they skip those and choose an alternative favored class bonus anyway?
Depends on the alternative. Sometimes I pick a race specifically for the bonus (e.g., if I'm playing a summoner, I need/want all the evolutions I can get,... and half-elf is a cool race anyway.) Sometimes I want to play a cool race, but the bonus is silly. (hey, wouldn't a kitsune make a great oracle? But what do I need with some stupid weapon, I'm a trickster caster....) Orc cavaliers are awesome, but I can't remember the last time I tried to bull rush.
I often don't use the racial favored class, so I'd really like this. I'd probably use it about 2/3 of the time.
Toughness is strictly superior... And I don't remember the last time I took that feat, so... No.
On any character that would take the skill bonuses anyway, this feat is nearly the equivilant of toughness.
On any character that would take the HP bonuses anyway, this feat is, in terms of raw skill points gained, far superior to any skill focus feat. (though skill focus still allows you to go further past the level maximum)
It's a very good feat, but I find that it's essentially most useful on front-line type skill monkeys, such as the inquisitor.
Err, the question isn't "would you spend a feat to take Fast Learner" but "if you were given Fast Learner as a bonus by GM fiat, would you use it, or blow off the hp and skills in favor of an alternative FCB?"
Err, the question isn't "would you spend a feat to take Fast Learner" but "if you were given Fast Learner as a bonus by GM fiat, would you use it, or blow off the hp and skills in favor of an alternative FCB?"
Ah, I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding. In that case, it depends on what the alternative is.
Generally speaking, I really don't care about the extra HP, but I enjoy having more skill points, as I find them vastly more useful and fun.
2 hp (total) less in trade for (level) additional skill ranks and (level) additional hp doesn't strike me as inferior.
What it basically boils down to is that at present the HP or Skillpoint is mostly a fallback if there isn't anything better.
Giving that feat for free would make it a more meaningful choice between Skillpoint and HP or Alternate Favored Class Bonus.
That's what I was thinking, but I wasn't sure it wouldn't go too far and stomp on the alternate FCBs. So far it sounds like it would be correctly balanced, in that some people would be taking it but some would still tend to ignore it.
And my apologies for not stating the initial question more clearly.
Do what I do:
Houserule that all classes/races can get 1/6 of a feat for an FCB.
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If Fast Learner were a universal bonus feat irrespective of race or Int, would your characters take advantage of it to get the +1 HP and +1 skill rank, or would they skip those and choose an alternative favored class bonus anyway?
Depends. Some races that otherwise work quite well for classes have just awful alternate FCB or none at all. Having this as an option would make those much more competitive with some of the other race options.
On any character that would take the skill bonuses anyway, this feat is nearly the equivilant of toughness.
On any character that would take the HP bonuses anyway, this feat is, in terms of raw skill points gained, far superior to any skill focus feat. (though skill focus still allows you to go further past the level maximum)
It's a very good feat, but I find that it's essentially most useful on front-line type skill monkeys, such as the inquisitor.
Nearly the equivalent of toughness is about right. Which means, take toughness first. Unless you want this for a prereq. Or you're planning on taking both.
It is by no means a very good feat. It's strictly inferior to toughness and that's not a very good feat. I mean it's exactly the same as taking toughness and putting your FCB into skill points, except that with toughness you get 3hp up front and you have the option of putting your FCB into hp for even more toughness.
The point of skill focus is to boost the skill past the level maximum, so that's hardly a fair comparison.
It's also noteworthy that this feat is only useful to characters with low numbers of skill points.
If you have high numbers of skill points, the point is to have the modifiers as high as possible, i.e. be the one in the party with the highest skill mod. Not to be one of the people in the party with just another low skill mod.
That's where skill focus comes in, making YOU the expert in the party (as well as class bonuses like bards get, etc).
Comparing this feat to the human ability to get 3 skill focus feats in palce of the +1 skill point per level, the skill foci are actually more valuable, because they make YOU the high mod.
==Aelryinth
It's a fighter friendly feat, especially in addition to Toughness. You can relatively easy afford it, and the alternate human FCB is only mediocre.
For purposes of this thread, Fast Learner is free, so its worth as a feat is moot. Comparisons to Toughness are irrelevant. What matters are comparisons of what Fast Learner now freely offers everyone (1 hp & 1 skill rank) versus the various alternative FCBs.
Do you automatically scorn the hp & skill rank? Or do you find them irresistible when packaged together w/o any prereqs? Or does it depend heavily on the character?
Thanks for your input.
I'd take it on Brawlers and Fighters, with some exceptions.
Probably on Alchemists too.
Some racial FCBs work out to being worth 3 feats, such as 3 bonus combat feats from 1/6 of a feat over 18 levels. So 3 feats is certainly better than +1 skill and +1 hp per level which is about 2 feats worth of bonus over 20 levels.
Not all racial FCBs are worth so much though.
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I can't emphasize enough how much I adore Fast Learner and it's subsequent feats: Improvisation and Improved Improvisation. Grab that feat chain with a 2-4 skill point, non-Intelligence-based class (Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, etc) and you're off to the races. I always tell the story of my human fighter with this combo (the 13 Int prerequisite neatly fulfills the requirement of Combat Expertise and it's subsequent combat maneuver feats, by the way). Having +4 in all skills and being able to use them all untrained really helps bring the fighter back on par with most other classes. What's that, you say? At high levels, +4 to a skill (plus any attribute modifier) isn't that much? Not for hitting high DCs yourself, but you'll succeed on aid another actions more often than not, and since you can attempt every single skill, you can contribute to just about every skill-based challenge.
That being said, I agree with some of the other posters about how some classes basically mandate the FCB being put into a specific race's alternate favored class bonus (half-elf summoners, human sorcerers, etc).
For purposes of this thread, Fast Learner is free, so its worth as a feat is moot. Comparisons to Toughness are irrelevant. What matters are comparisons of what Fast Learner now freely offers everyone (1 hp & 1 skill rank) versus the various alternative FCBs.
Do you automatically scorn the hp & skill rank? Or do you find them irresistible when packaged together w/o any prereqs? Or does it depend heavily on the character?
Thanks for your input.
Free = many, many thanks for every character every time. I can take Toughness to go with it for +2 hp and +1 skill rank/level. There are never enough skill ranks/level...
2 hp (total) less in trade for (level) additional skill ranks and (level) additional hp doesn't strike me as inferior.I'm not sure what you're comparing. If it's Toughness vs Fast Learner, you're wrong.
Fast Learner is 1 sp & 1 hp per level. Toughness is one additional hp per level (but you get the first 3 at once, when you need them most). With toughness you can then get 1 sp/level to be exactly the same as Fast Learner, or 1hp/level to be even tougher.
A feat that flat out gave you an extra sp/level would be better and a nice parallel to Toughness.
It's superior to Toughness on that basis, as Fast Learner gives both 1 hp and 1 skill rank/level. If you're human, take Toughness too, voila, +2 hp and +2 skill ranks/level (with the added yummy bonus of +4 hp at 1st level, dropping to +1 hp at 2nd and +1 hp at 3rd before climbing back to +2 hp per level).
The only time it can bite you in the rear is if the character is multi-classing or prestige classing.
For the most part, the only alternate racial bonuses I use are the ones like human sorcerer/Oracle that gives free spells to the list. I LOOOOOVE those bonues.
Every other character I've played always takes the skill point or HP... depending on what I rolled that level.
So yeah... getting BOTH like that would be rather nice :)
No Turin, Fast Learner doesn't give both.
Fast learner gives the other half of the equation, you were already getting the other for taking levels in your favored class.
It's precisely the equivalent of Toughness.
So, it does what people want except for being tied to favored class levels. I'd still take it all day every day if it is a bonus feat for free, NQA. Because it stacks with Toughness. And the human racial bonus skill rank/level. And especially if my characters don't have to meet the prerequisite 13 INT.
At high levels, +4 to a skill (plus any attribute modifier) isn't that much? Not for hitting high DCs yourself, but you'll succeed on aid another actions more often than not, and since you can attempt every single skill, you can contribute to just about every skill-based challenge.
There is an often overlooked rule. In order to be able to Aid Another you have to be able to succeed at the skill roll yourself. So if the DC is 30 and your total modifier is only +9 you can not Aid Another on that check.
To the original question, it would really depend on what the alternate favored class bonus was. As a human sorcerer, I would take the Additional Spell Known at least a few times. As a dwarven monk, I doubt I would ever take their FCB to reduce hardness of clay, stone or metal. I would be looking at the alternate FCB for each race and class combination.
It's precisely the equivalent of Toughness.
It's strictly worse than Toughness, though.
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I definitely would, considering I rarely take the class benefits anyway. In fact, my PFS Occultist has it, though it was mostly for Improvisation and at level 3, Improved Improvisation.
I will say it's an odd prereq for those though.
"Want bonuses to all untrained skill checks? Alright, first take this feat that makes sure you get an FCB skill point every level, and you also have to be the race that gives a skill point every level. What? That means you have less unskilled checks? Oh well"
It's precisely the equivalent of Toughness.It's strictly worse than Toughness, though.Assuming you weren't going to multiclass anyway and had more important things to take for your level 1 feat...
How is this feat any worse than Toughness?
I'm a bit curious on this as well... Admittedly I'm not an optimizer who's seen all the angles... but the way I see it is...
Feat 1: give 3 hp, +1hp per level.
Feat 2: Gives 1hp per level + 1 Skill point level per level.
I see a Fast learner as being only 2hp behind Toughness... but getting a LOT of skill points... so how is this really 'worse'?
Toughness also allows you to take the FCB for HP as well to double up. Fast Learner will only ever give you +1 HP and +1 skill point.
To elaborate, FCB with Fast Learner will only ever give you +1HP and +1 skill point, and only if you don't multiclass or take alternate FCBs.
Toughness + regular FCB...
- Can give you +1HP and +1 skill point, just like Fast Learner
- Still gives you +1HP when you multiclass
- Gives you extra HP at levels 1 and 2
- Lets you Take +2 HP instead of +1/+1 HP/SP, or you can mix and match e.g. go +1/+1 one level and +2HP the next level
- Plays much better with alternate FCBs - Fast Learner gives you bubcus with an alternative FCB, while toughness still gives you it's benefits.
So at best they are identical, and in literally any situation that they aren't identical toughness is better. That means Fast Learner is strictly worse.
At high levels, +4 to a skill (plus any attribute modifier) isn't that much? Not for hitting high DCs yourself, but you'll succeed on aid another actions more often than not, and since you can attempt every single skill, you can contribute to just about every skill-based challenge.There is an often overlooked rule. In order to be able to Aid Another you have to be able to succeed at the skill roll yourself. So if the DC is 30 and your total modifier is only +9 you can not Aid Another on that check.
This is incorrect.
If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you're helping gets a +2 bonus on his or her check.
To aid others on skill checks, they need only roll a 10. If you can muster a +9 bonus, then your action to aid your buddy automatically succeeds barring house rules.
Toughness also allows you to take the FCB for HP as well to double up. Fast Learner will only ever give you +1 HP and +1 skill point.To elaborate, FCB with Fast Learner will only ever give you +1HP and +1 skill point, and only if you don't multiclass or take alternate FCBs.
Toughness + regular FCB...
- Can give you +1HP and +1 skill point, just like Fast Learner
- Still gives you +1HP when you multiclass
- Gives you extra HP at levels 1 and 2
- Lets you Take +2 HP instead of +1/+1 HP/SP, or you can mix and match e.g. go +1/+1 one level and +2HP the next level
- Plays much better with alternate FCBs - Fast Learner gives you bubcus with an alternative FCB, while toughness still gives you it's benefits.So at best they are identical, and in literally any situation that they aren't identical toughness is better. That means Fast Learner is strictly worse.
To quite a few it's only "worse" in that it only plays nice with levels in a favored class. If you're a half-elf with the Multitalented racial trait, you get it for both favored classes. Clearly mileage varies. I have a player that always takes it because she values those skill ranks. I agree with her, there simply are never enough skill ranks even with Pathfinder's condensing of several skills from 3.5 and adding Unchained's background skills into the mix.
A house rule that I've seen floating around - that we use - is that Fast Learner is a "pick two of three" feat for each level of your character's favored class bonus. In the case of the player above, she goes with human sorcerer and Fast Learner to garner +1 hp (fast learner), +1 skill rank (human) and the human FCB every level. We enjoy it and it solves the annoyance of Fast Learner not interfacing with racial FCBs. RAW and PFS it doesn't work that way ... but in our group's opinion, RAW is in error and gets in the way of our fun. YMMV.
I see a Fast learner as being only 2hp behind Toughness... but getting a LOT of skill points... so how is this really 'worse'?
Because if you get Toughness and then use your favored class bonus on skill points, it does exactly the same thing.
But Toughness offers the advantage of giving you extra hp at 1st and 2nd level and working with class levels of any class, so if you multiclass, you still get the extra hp.
With Toughness you also get the possibility of getting 2 hp or 1 hp + whatever other FCB you want, while Fast Learner locks you into 1 hp + 1 skill point.
I have a player that always takes it because she values those skill ranks. I agree with her, there simply are never enough skill ranks even with Pathfinder's condensing of several skills from 3.5 and adding Unchained's background skills into the mix.
That's the thing... Fast Learner doesn't give you any more skill points than simply taking Toughness + skill points as favored class bonus.
That feat only makes sense if you take it after taking Toughness and deciding you still want more extra hp per level.
I see a Fast learner as being only 2hp behind Toughness... but getting a LOT of skill points... so how is this really 'worse'?Because if you get Toughness and then use your favored class bonus on skill points, it does exactly the same thing.
But Toughness offers the advantage of giving you extra hp at 1st and 2nd level and working with class levels of any class, so if you multiclass, you still get the extra hp.
With Toughness you also get the possibility of getting 2 hp or 1 hp + whatever other FCB you want, while Fast Learner locks you into 1 hp + 1 skill point.
I have a player that always takes it because she values those skill ranks. I agree with her, there simply are never enough skill ranks even with Pathfinder's condensing of several skills from 3.5 and adding Unchained's background skills into the mix.That's the thing... Fast Learner doesn't give you any more skill points than simply taking Toughness + skill points as favored class bonus.
That feat only makes sense if you take it after taking Toughness and deciding you still want more extra hp per level.
It makes perfect sense with our house rule. She gets all three favored class options and she can take Toughness. At 1st level, her Sorcerer has 10 hp not counting any Con bonus. She's quite happy with the arrangement. And we're all happy that 1st level isn't quite so much a game of rocket tag.
I don't doubt it works with houserules... As written, though, the feat is completely pointless unless you want to stack it with Toughness... Which seems like a waste of 2 feats to me.
At high levels, +4 to a skill (plus any attribute modifier) isn't that much? Not for hitting high DCs yourself, but you'll succeed on aid another actions more often than not, and since you can attempt every single skill, you can contribute to just about every skill-based challenge.There is an often overlooked rule. In order to be able to Aid Another you have to be able to succeed at the skill roll yourself. So if the DC is 30 and your total modifier is only +9 you can not Aid Another on that check.
This is incorrect.
To aid others on skill checks, they need only roll a 10. If you can muster a +9 bonus, then your action to aid your buddy automatically succeeds barring house rules.
If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you're helping gets a +2 bonus on his or her check.
Read further down.
In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone.
If the lock is DC 25 and you don't have a +5 Disable Device, you can't Aid Another in attempting to pick that lock.
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2 hp (total) less in trade for (level) additional skill ranks and (level) additional hp doesn't strike me as inferior.I'm not sure what you're comparing. If it's Toughness vs Fast Learner, you're wrong.
Fast Learner is 1 sp & 1hp per level. Toughness is one additional hp per level (but you get the first 3 at once, when you need them most). With toughness you can then get 1 sp/level to be exactly the same as Fast Learner, or 1hp/level to be even tougher.
A feat that flat out gave you an extra sp/level would be better and a nice parallel to Toughness.
Both Fast Learner and Toughness even out at +1hp/level.
Fast Learner gives +1 sp at the same time.
So Toughness can give +2 hp/level or +1hp/+1sp per level...a slight alternative in options but not what I consider "better". these feats are roughly the same power level...low power.
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Read further down.
In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone.If the lock is DC 25 and you don't have a +5 Disable Device, you can't Aid Another in attempting to pick that lock.
I think the intent of this rules is for situations where you have to have a certain class ability to attempt a skill in a specific situation, not where your bonus isn't numerically high enough. In that specific example, I think they meant to say "use Disable Device to disarm magical traps."
I don't doubt it works with houserules... As written, though, the feat is completely pointless unless you want to stack it with Toughness... Which seems like a waste of 2 feats to me.
If you choose Toughness, then you probably wanted HP bad enough to take HP as your FCB too. If you want all of those hitpoints and would also like to have some more skills, then the feat is for you. At least until we get a skills version of toughness, and even then similar logic applies.