Sonic energy: own category, air-related or earth-related?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Ok, sonic damage has been a little... puzzling lately, because I have no clue where to classify it.

When I looked in some sources about Sonic, even the system itself doesn't know where to put it.

Sonic is often a separate energy source, so far that's good. However, if I take the Elementalist Wizard spell list, here's what I found:
* Shatter is a 2nd-level Earth spell.
* Shout is a 4th-level Air spell.
* Greater Shout is a 8th-level Air spell.

Here's something else I found:
* The Crystal Primal Dragon, an Earth subtype creature, has a Sonic breath weapon.
* Sonic is used as one of the selectable energy types for many psionic powers, as an Earth-related energy.

Sound is a vibration in air, but some are linking sound to resonating crystals, yet even in some points, it's own thing...

If I were to homebrew a Sonic Blast for the Kineticist (yeah, obvious omittion there Paizo :P; same goes with acid, but that's beside the point), would I place it in Air, even if they have 2 blasts already, or Earth, since they could use one more blast and that the Crystal Dragon has a sonic breath?

Sonic is a spell type, without being combined with another one, but even then, it's still confusing.


I have always considered sonic to be earth related (in fact I often replace acid selection for earth with sonic as acid does not makes sense to me as earth-related), but it's the most nebulous and unrecognized energy type in the system so it's more or less up to you.


Solution: make sonic a replacement composite blast for air/earth. It deals damage like Force Blast, but with a bonus vs crystalline objects/creatures. Acid is rarely resisted, and sonic is almost never resisted, so they were probably left out for balance.


Knitifine wrote:
I have always considered sonic to be earth related (in fact I often replace acid selection for earth with sonic as acid does not makes sense to me as earth-related), but it's the most nebulous and unrecognized energy type in the system so it's more or less up to you.

Well, let me ask you this: Why Earth? What's your explanation?


I feel like somehow sonic fits even less in Earth + Air than it does in either one. I think there might be a bit of a golden mean fallacy at play with that suggestion. Though I do agree it should deal damage similar to force blast due to being rarely resisted.


JiCi wrote:
Knitifine wrote:
I have always considered sonic to be earth related (in fact I often replace acid selection for earth with sonic as acid does not makes sense to me as earth-related), but it's the most nebulous and unrecognized energy type in the system so it's more or less up to you.
Well, let me ask you this: Why Earth? What's your explanation?

Sound travels faster through solids than through gas.

Scarab Sages

Sonic is an energy type based on sound or vibrations. It's non-elemental on it's own, but several different elemental effects can cause sonic damage.

Not all energy types need to be tied to the classic four elements. That's not even taking into account Wood, Metal, and Void.


QuidEst wrote:
Solution: make sonic a replacement composite blast for air/earth. It deals damage like Force Blast. Acid is rarely resisted, and sonic is almost never resisted, so they were probably left out for balance.

Sonic is often ruled to deal one die category less in damage. Dude, the psionic rules made sonic mainstream, despite being resisted by nobody.

Many new sonic spells have popped up at the same levels as other spells that deal fire, cold, acid and/or electricity damage.

I don't see sonic as OP by any mean. An air, earth or water blast deals physical damage, energy resistance be damned. That doesn't make any of these OP.


Imbicatus wrote:

Sonic is an energy type based on sound or vibrations. It's non-elemental on it's own, but several different elemental effects can cause sonic damage.

Not all energy types need to be tied to the classic four elements. That's not even taking into account Wood, Metal, and Void.

Metal is a composite, and wood and void are coming.


Imbicatus wrote:
Not all energy types need to be tied to the classic four elements. That's not even taking into account Wood, Metal, and Void.

Wood = Earth, Metal = Earth (dude... Metal Blast?), Void = Negative Energy.

Then again, the five elements theory has wood and metal as separate elements from earth... while air is removed completely.


JiCi wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Solution: make sonic a replacement composite blast for air/earth. It deals damage like Force Blast. Acid is rarely resisted, and sonic is almost never resisted, so they were probably left out for balance.

Sonic is often ruled to deal one die category less in damage. Dude, the psionic rules made sonic mainstream, despite being resisted by nobody.

Many new sonic spells have popped up at the same levels as other spells that deal fire, cold, acid and/or electricity damage.

I don't see sonic as OP by any mean. An air, earth or water blast deals physical damage, energy resistance be damned. That doesn't make any of these OP.

Magical attacks that deal physical damage have been ruled to have damage resistance applied to them, which is what balances out not hitting any energy resistance. (It would be better if we just had a system to cover all types but whatever).


JiCi wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Not all energy types need to be tied to the classic four elements. That's not even taking into account Wood, Metal, and Void.

Wood = Earth, Metal = Earth (dude... Metal Blast?), Void = Negative Energy.

Then again, the five elements theory has wood and metal as separate elements from earth... while air is removed completely.

Wood is actually closely related to Air in the Chinese elemental system.


JiCi wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Solution: make sonic a replacement composite blast for air/earth. It deals damage like Force Blast. Acid is rarely resisted, and sonic is almost never resisted, so they were probably left out for balance.

Sonic is often ruled to deal one die category less in damage. Dude, the psionic rules made sonic mainstream, despite being resisted by nobody.

Many new sonic spells have popped up at the same levels as other spells that deal fire, cold, acid and/or electricity damage.

I don't see sonic as OP by any mean. An air, earth or water blast deals physical damage, energy resistance be damned. That doesn't make any of these OP.

Physical blasts resolve against full AC rather than touch and deal with DR. I sonic damage were not balanced out in some fashion, it would be strictly better than any other energy type.


Knitifine wrote:
Magical attacks that deal physical damage have been ruled to have damage resistance applied to them, which is what balances out not hitting any energy resistance. (It would be better if we just had a system to cover all types but whatever).

True, but... DR isn't as high, in terms of damage resisted, as energy resistance. In fact, they lowered DR when they switched from 3.0 to 3.5, like from 25 to 10, but you can see fire resistance 30 a few times.

Still, Air has Electric Blast, Earth can rotate between the three damage types and Water has Cold Blast.

QuidEst wrote:
...and wood and void are coming.

Woaw, woaw, woaw... come again???


QuidEst wrote:
Physical blasts resolve against full AC rather than touch and deal with DR. I sonic damage were not balanced out in some fashion, it would be strictly better than any other energy type.

Fair enough though... Your armor can save you from receiving a boulder on your chest :P


JiCi wrote:
Knitifine wrote:
Magical attacks that deal physical damage have been ruled to have damage resistance applied to them, which is what balances out not hitting any energy resistance. (It would be better if we just had a system to cover all types but whatever).

True, but... DR isn't as high, in terms of damage resisted, as energy resistance. In fact, they lowered DR when they switched from 3.0 to 3.5, like from 25 to 10, but you can see fire resistance 30 a few times.

Still, Air has Electric Blast, Earth can rotate between the three damage types and Water has Cold Blast.

Earth has three damage types due to the not having a second blast. Electricity and cold are still relatively common energy types (though not as common as fire). They are each much more common than Sonic, which I believe is only less rare than force by a singular digit worth of monsters.


JiCi wrote:
Knitifine wrote:
Magical attacks that deal physical damage have been ruled to have damage resistance applied to them, which is what balances out not hitting any energy resistance. (It would be better if we just had a system to cover all types but whatever).

True, but... DR isn't as high, in terms of damage resisted, as energy resistance. In fact, they lowered DR when they switched from 3.0 to 3.5, like from 25 to 10, but you can see fire resistance 30 a few times.

Still, Air has Electric Blast, Earth can rotate between the three damage types and Water has Cold Blast.

QuidEst wrote:
...and wood and void are coming.
Woaw, woaw, woaw... come again???

Occult Origins, coming in October. Mark at least hinted very strongly to that effect.


JiCi wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
...and wood and void are coming.
Woaw, woaw, woaw... come again???

Wood and Void have non-subtely hinted to likely be going to be in "Occult Origins" (I think occult origins was the book).


Knitifine wrote:
JiCi wrote:
Knitifine wrote:
Magical attacks that deal physical damage have been ruled to have damage resistance applied to them, which is what balances out not hitting any energy resistance. (It would be better if we just had a system to cover all types but whatever).

True, but... DR isn't as high, in terms of damage resisted, as energy resistance. In fact, they lowered DR when they switched from 3.0 to 3.5, like from 25 to 10, but you can see fire resistance 30 a few times.

Still, Air has Electric Blast, Earth can rotate between the three damage types and Water has Cold Blast.

Earth's has three damage types due to the not having a second blast. Electricity and cold are still relatively common energy types (though not as common as fire). They are each much more common than Sonic, which I believe is only less rare than force by a singular digit worth of monsters.

Yeah, that's what I said. Technically, it you're screwed with one damage type as an Aero, Geo or Hydrokineticist, you at least got options. You're gonna cry as a Pyrokineticist though :P

I don't remember any monsters being resistant, let alone immune to sonic damage. There are, but REALLY scarce.

I can understand the omittion for being a little too powerful, but its inclusion would be puzzling. Your explanation is completely valid on why sonic should be Earth-based, like the psionic rules. However, being that it is often classified as an Air-related energy, which would make sense if we go with the scientific explanation of being a vibration in the air, makes everything scrambled.

Like I stated, Shatter is one element, but Shout and Greater Shout, y'know, "upgraded" Shatter spells, are another element, and that's from Paizo themselves.

Then there's Sonic being its own thing, but if it's so tied to either air or earth, then why sonic spells aren't either air or earth subtyped?

There HAS to be some sort of clear distinction here.


QuidEst wrote:
Occult Origins, coming in October. Mark at least hinted very strongly to that effect.

Fair enough.


JiCi wrote:
Knitifine wrote:
JiCi wrote:
Knitifine wrote:
Magical attacks that deal physical damage have been ruled to have damage resistance applied to them, which is what balances out not hitting any energy resistance. (It would be better if we just had a system to cover all types but whatever).

True, but... DR isn't as high, in terms of damage resisted, as energy resistance. In fact, they lowered DR when they switched from 3.0 to 3.5, like from 25 to 10, but you can see fire resistance 30 a few times.

Still, Air has Electric Blast, Earth can rotate between the three damage types and Water has Cold Blast.

Earth's has three damage types due to the not having a second blast. Electricity and cold are still relatively common energy types (though not as common as fire). They are each much more common than Sonic, which I believe is only less rare than force by a singular digit worth of monsters.

Yeah, that's what I said. Technically, it you're screwed with one damage type as an Aero, Geo or Hydrokineticist, you at least got options. You're gonna cry as a Pyrokineticist though :P

I don't remember any monsters being resistant, let alone immune to sonic damage. There are, but REALLY scarce.

I can understand the omittion for being a little too powerful, but its inclusion would be puzzling. Your explanation is completely valid on why sonic should be Earth-based, like the psionic rules. However, being that it is often classified as an Air-related energy, which would make sense if we go with the scientific explanation of being a vibration in the air, makes everything scrambled.

Like I stated, Shatter is one element, but Shout and Greater Shout, y'know, "upgraded" Shatter spells, are another element, and that's from Paizo themselves.

Then there's Sonic being its own thing, but if it's so tied to either air or earth, then why sonic spells aren't either air or earth subtyped?

There HAS to be some sort of clear distinction here.

No, there doesn't have to be. Sonic is a damage type that's overlooked and underutilized by the developers, they likely have no regulations for what type of element descriptor spells with it might have beyond just [Sonic]. If you are looking for an official answer, you're not going to find one.


Knitifine wrote:
No, there doesn't have to be. Sonic is a damage type that's overlooked and underutilized by the developers, they likely have no regulations for what type of element descriptor spells with it might have beyond just [Sonic]. If you are looking for an official answer, you're not going to find one.

Woaw, woaw, hold on, I'm not demanding an explanation. I'm just looking for one.


JiCi wrote:
Knitifine wrote:
No, there doesn't have to be. Sonic is a damage type that's overlooked and underutilized by the developers, they likely have no regulations for what type of element descriptor spells with it might have beyond just [Sonic]. If you are looking for an official answer, you're not going to find one.
Woaw, woaw, hold on, I'm not demanding an explanation. I'm just looking for one.

Sonic spells are on the lists because they're thematically appropriate. Shattering things is earthy, shouting is airy. Wood comes with Charm Person- that's the real mystery.


JiCi wrote:
Knitifine wrote:
No, there doesn't have to be. Sonic is a damage type that's overlooked and underutilized by the developers, they likely have no regulations for what type of element descriptor spells with it might have beyond just [Sonic]. If you are looking for an official answer, you're not going to find one.
Woaw, woaw, hold on, I'm not demanding an explanation. I'm just looking for one.

Are you sure you read that right?

Scarab Sages

QuidEst wrote:
[Wood comes with Charm Person- that's the real mystery.

Because you can douse someone with flower pheromones like Poison Ivy.


Sonic is Sound, which travels through most mediums, depending on the pitch. So, no element, IMO, should have Sonic as its type of damage.

One thing I REALLY like about Pathfinder: Bards are the kings of Sonic Spells! That is the way it should be, too.


5e replaced sonic damage with thunder damage making it seem like previous edition sonic was viewed more as air than anything else.

PF isn't d&d but it came from those origins.


Rhedyn wrote:

5e replaced sonic damage with thunder damage making it seem like previous edition sonic was viewed more as air than anything else.

PF isn't d&d but it came from those origins.

No, 4e did that.

Owner - Gator Games & Hobby

5th also kept that change though.


Knitifine wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:

5e replaced sonic damage with thunder damage making it seem like previous edition sonic was viewed more as air than anything else.

PF isn't d&d but it came from those origins.

No, 4e did that.

There was no 4e.

WotC is like microsoft

1e 2e 3 3.5 Nothing 5e.

They can't count.


Cwethan wrote:
5th also kept that change though.

I am aware.

Rhedyn wrote:
Knitifine wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:

5e replaced sonic damage with thunder damage making it seem like previous edition sonic was viewed more as air than anything else.

PF isn't d&d but it came from those origins.

No, 4e did that.

There was no 4e.

WotC is like microsoft

1e 2e 3 3.5 Nothing 5e.

They can't count.

Cute. But factually inaccurate.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
JiCi wrote:
Like I stated, Shatter is one element, but Shout and Greater Shout, y'know, "upgraded" Shatter spells, are another element, and that's from Paizo themselves.

Elementalist Wizard isn't Core - it's just an archetype that had to fit in those spells somewhere.

JiCi wrote:
I don't remember any monsters being resistant, let alone immune to sonic damage. There are, but REALLY scarce.

... Every. Demon.

Scarab Sages

Majuba wrote:

JiCi wrote:
I don't remember any monsters being resistant, let alone immune to sonic damage. There are, but REALLY scarce.
... Every. Demon.

Umm, no.

Babau:Immune electricity, poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10, fire 10; SR 17
Balor: Immune electricity, fire, poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10; SR 31
Dretch: Immune electricity, poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10, fire 10
Glabrezu: Immune electricity, poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10, fire 10; SR 24
Hezrou: Immune electricity, poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10, fire 10; SR 22
Marilith: Immune electricity and poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10, fire 10; SR 28
Nabasu: Immune death effects, electricity, paralysis, poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10, fire 10; SR 19
Nalfeshnee: Immune electricity, poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10, fire 10; SR 25
Quasit: Immune electricity, poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10, fire 10

The list goes on. They are immune to electricity, not sonic.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

My all-time favorite monster, the Yrthak!


Majuba wrote:
JiCi wrote:
Like I stated, Shatter is one element, but Shout and Greater Shout, y'know, "upgraded" Shatter spells, are another element, and that's from Paizo themselves.
Elementalist Wizard isn't Core - it's just an archetype that had to fit in those spells somewhere.

That doesn't explain why Shatter is Earth while Shout is Air. Why not place Shatter in Air or place Shout and Great Shout in Earth?

Scarab Sages

JiCi wrote:
Majuba wrote:
JiCi wrote:
Like I stated, Shatter is one element, but Shout and Greater Shout, y'know, "upgraded" Shatter spells, are another element, and that's from Paizo themselves.
Elementalist Wizard isn't Core - it's just an archetype that had to fit in those spells somewhere.
That doesn't explain why Shatter is Earth while Shout is Air. Why not place Shatter in Air or place Shout and Great Shout in Earth?

Because Shatter only effects crystal or glass by causing it to vibrate from within, and Shout is a vocalization that travels through air and effect more targets.

Also, it's magic. It doesn't need to make logical sense from a scientific point of view.


I've always liked the idea that sonic = air and electricity = earth (magnetism and metals being earth-y things), but that's just personal preference. Unfortunately, Paizo seems to have gone out of their way to avoid sonic energy. Certain blatantly sonic effects (I'm looking at you, thunderstorm blast!) deal bludgeoning damage, despite all logic and reason. I'm tinkering with the idea of an aerokinetic infusion for that turns bludgeoning damage into sonic, but I haven't nailed down the specifics yet...


Irthos wrote:
I've always liked the idea that sonic = air and electricity = earth (magnetism and metals being earth-y things), but that's just personal preference. Unfortunately, Paizo seems to have gone out of their way to avoid sonic energy. Certain blatantly sonic effects (I'm looking at you, thunderstorm blast!) deal bludgeoning damage, despite all logic and reason. I'm tinkering with the idea of an aerokinetic infusion for that turns bludgeoning damage into sonic, but I haven't nailed down the specifics yet...

When we finally see a sonic attack for Kineticists, I am certain it will be rather low damage dealing or have many pre-reqs to get it.


It seems to me that sonic has morphed in meaning over the years. Back in 3.0, it seemed to not be an energy, and was instead mean "this spell needs to make a sound to be effective"... and/or "this spell needs to be heard to be effective".

Somewhere between 3.0 and 3.5, it seemed to become an "energy".


Hedgehog related


I prefer to think of Sonic as Universal. Almost anything can make sound.


I'm with Melkiador and Fourshadow on this one. I don't think Sonic is/should be linked to one of the Kineticist elements because it's *not* an element. It's a sub-division of damage you can use to avoid hitting as much Resistance (looking at you, Mythic Call Lightning) similar to how half of Flame Strike is 'holy power' (not positive energy, but 'radiant' to use a more modernly coined term) damage. Sure, things are more likely to resist Sonic than radiant because some things simply don't have sensitivity to sound.

Any loud thing *could* cause Sonic damage. I don't consider it an element that a Kineticist could operate on, except *maybe* if you made an archetype around it similar to the Blood Kineticist. If that were the case, I'd attach it to air, personally, because air is the *easiest* way to control vibrations to 'throw sound at creatures'.


When considering a rework of elemental damages, I placed Sonic completely under earth since (P-wave) earthquakes and sound waves are both longitudinal pressure waves, as distinct from the transverse waves of electromagnetics.

Liberty's Edge

Green Slaads are immune to Sonic
Spine Dragons are immune to Sonic


UberPorsche wrote:

Green Slaads are immune to Sonic

Spine Dragons are immune to Sonic

Let the necromancy flow through you... good, good!

PS: Slaadi are WotC intellectual property. Spine dragons are the rare exception to the rule. Based on their description, it feels weird that they're immune to sonic and not vulnerable to it.


Either/or, as long as you don't assign Acid to Earth.

I'm not that fond of assigning energy types to Classical elements (with the exception of Fire) anyway. Ideally I'd keep them separate (except, again, fire). I'd replace the energies for Earth, Water, and Air with bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage (which one gets which, I don't know).


What a weird thread. Sonic is sonic.


I know right off the bat how this is gonna sound (pardon the expression):

Doctor Who. Sonic Screwdriver. And before everyone starts chiming in, there have been players that have done homage versions of the Doctor; I'm seriously looking at it myself in one of our campaigns. Playing a (semi-)pacifist instead of my usual bloodthirsty warmongers is going to be an interesting challenge. ;)

What all does the Sonic Screwdriver do, and what could it do in-game? It actually can affect physical objects (except for wood or stone, which is kind of odd), up to and including actually unscrewing things, but in PF, would it be able to "fire" sonic energy effects like a wand?

And since Sorcerers can have draconic bloodlines, even Linnorm ones, why not an Yrthak ancestry for a Doctor homage? ;)

I do agree with those that say that Paizo kind of dropped the ball on developing sonic energy more, except for maybe psychic stuff. It's been proven scientifically that certain cetaceans (dolphins and bigger toothed whales) that use echolocation, can indeed "fire" a blast of echolocation that can actually damage their prey long enough to slow it down, stun it, or even kill it if it's a small enough critter. Sound waves travel through a medium (they need a medium; they can't travel through a vacuum), usually water in this case. Sent through air, they can shatter a glass goblet in RL. Sent through dirt, they can cause anything from ground tremors to earthquakes (not the same; ground tremors are way more shallow) to simple subsonic communication between elephants.

So, yeah, in general I wouldn't classify sonic as Air or Earth, but as its own thing, energy-wise; I just wish there were more in-game applications for it. :-/

LB

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