instead of "hey you are a good player, let me reward you with a penalty!" just give the mooks a random secret untype bonus to cmd and be done with it
I'm honest with my players. If I will change Furious Focus, same changes will apply to NPCs.
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So let me paraphrase the "issue" here how i see it.
OP: "Help! A Fighter is too good and causing issues in my campaign! He has a 80% chance of imposing a mild debuff to his opponents!"
Meanwhile the Wizard / Cleric of the party has a ~80% chance to completly take an opponent out of the fight (Hold Person, Blindness, Create Pit, Hold Monster, Dominate Person, Suffocation, Suggestion, and a dozend others ... etc.pp.) AND NO-ONE BATS AN EYE!
...
Yeah...
How does he dare to be good in something else than mindlessly hacking enemys to pieces!?! Lets houserule this out of existence.
Ok, ok, I understand.
Now about homerules.
What do you think of this change to Furious Focus:
Furious Focus allows to reduce penaly to attacks from Power Attack by 50% (min reduction by 1) for first 2 attacks in round.
:)
I think it's a very unnecessary nerf to a feat that is not even that good (most full BAB classes have a high hit chance anyway, the penalty barely makes any difference. IMHO, Furious Focus is only relevant for classes with lower accuracy).
Just make it so Sunder isn't such an universally good tactic, if it bother you so much... Add ranged enemies, spell casters, unarmed combatants, summons, etc.
Hell! Simply adding multiple enemies per encounter will solve this (and any other "overpowered" maneuver-based tactic).
If you really, really want to be a pain in the ass of your players, just add a 100gp spell component to make whole.
Still, all of those things are unnecessary... Increasing the number and variety of enemies would work perfectly fine.
So let me paraphrase the "issue" here how i see it.
OP: "Help! A Fighter is too good and causing issues in my campaign! He has a 80% chance of imposing a mild debuff to his opponents!"
Meanwhile the Wizard / Cleric of the party has a ~80% chance to completly take an opponent out of the fight (Hold Person, Blindness, Create Pit, Hold Monster, Dominate Person, Suffocation, Suggestion, and a dozend others ... etc.pp.) AND NO-ONE BATS AN EYE!
...
Yeah...
How does he dare to be good in something else than mindlessly hacking enemys to pieces!?! Lets houserule this out of existence.
Casters knocking people out of a fight with an 80% success rate is only a problem in games with optimized full casters. Maybe there aren't any in this particular game.
I get the impression you didn't read the whole thread where people offered helpful suggestions and he thanked us for the advice?
Do you really think an extra -2 penalty is going to stop the fighter from sundering the weapons of mooks reliably? Because I highly doubt it will.Idea is not to stop fighter from doing it, idea is to normalize chances. Make them more even and not 100%-ish.
Best case for the fighter is a 95% success rate.
If he is *just* at the edge of the RNG, you drop it to 85% with your houserule.
I maintain my position. 85% is still very consistent. That's a hit on a 4 or more. It's a niggly little nerf that doesn't actually fix the problem for you, and is thus fairly pointless.
Hello All,
One of PCs in my group is fighter (TH archetype).
With Power Attack, Furious Focus, and all other bonuses he basically has following stats on his first sunder attempt in round:CMB: +12(base)+6(str)+1(weapon)+1(focus)+2(training)+3(shattering)+4(gr.sunder) = +29
Dmg: 2d4(falchion)+9(str)+1(enchant)+2(specializ)+2(training)+12(power)+3(shatte ring) = 2d4+29So, basically he always hits (85-90%) any level-appropriate enemy with sunder attempt and with his adamantine falchion destroys any weapon that doesn't have +3 enchantment with 1 hit. There is no issue in repairing weapons after combat with Make Whole, as party caster has 12 CL and it's enough to fix +1 and +2 weapons.
I don't know what to do actually. Math looks completely broken for my taste. Even in 3.5 (that was clearly more unbalanced) I don't remember such ridiculous situations.
Furious Focus just needs to be nerfed (+12 dmg on sunder without any tradeoff is HUGE)
What's wrong with the math? Being able to partially deal with one level-appropriate opponent or so per round is about where a PC should be. And if you pay for an adamantine weapon, you ought to be able to enjoy the benefits.
Meanwhile, this tactic is basically irrelevant if your opponents have ranged weapons. But yes, against Large opponents with single melee weapons, it's pretty good.
To the OP: There actually IS a problem with Pathfinder CMD math. Humanoid opponents don't scale especially well, but the giant monstrous enemies (which usually become much more common as you climb levels) get CMDs which are nearly impossible to hit. As I've seen it explained, this is largely due to CMD getting boosts from size while also double dipping from the accompanied increase in STR.
So in order for a character to get high enough numbers to have even a 50/50 shot at bull rushing an ogre, they would be pretty much auto succeeding against a humanoid. If you are using entirely humanoid opponents, I could see where it start to feel silly.
That being said: it feels late to start trying to screw with that math now. Your fighter is 12 levels in and tailored himself to be able to sunder stuff. Nerfing his build himself will probably upset him more than merely raising the challenge of encounters.
Keep in mind, the fighter is the most one dimensional class in the game. Casters in the party can do a helluva lot more to trivialize encounters, and things like scrying, flight, or stone shape to derail your plans out of combat. The fighter is good at fighting. Let him be!
Also, sunder? Really easy to get around. I've never even bothered making a disarm or sunder specialist because I know my DM likes the Quickdraw feat. Brawlers or monks won't care about it, nor will natural attack barbarians or most actual monsters. Start using some sort of dire hound as guard dogs to vary things up. Let him still have sunder mean something every now and then. The alternative is he just focuses on damage and outright killing everything faster.
To put this in perspective, let's think about what this would have been like if your fighter had instead specialized in the trip line. Perhaps with a reach weapon and a monk (maneuver master) or brawler dip.
Improved Trip+Greater Trip+Combat Reflexes+ Vicious Stomp: Every humanoid you fight is suddenly knocked on their ass, and provokes 2 attacks of opportunities from the fighter, and at least 1 from adjacent allies. They are now taking a -4 penalty to AC and attack rolls, unless they stand, provoking another AoO from the fighter and any adjacent allies. The fighter used one attack to do this, and can potentially hit others with it in the same turn. Tack on Enforcer and use nonlethal damage, and suddenly the victim is shaken for an additional -2 penalty. The fighter also becomes a very effective source of battlefield control, as anyone trying to move past him or even up to him risks being tripped for their troubles. Expect your party to realize this and start abusing Enlarge Person.
That would be much harder to deal with using humanoids. Sunder, by comparison? Just vary your encounter design a bit and you'll be fine.
God help him if he ever saw my Enchantment Sorcerer..,.
Oh all the enemies are fighters? Cool! WILL SAVES EVERYBODY!!!
*40 minutes later*
Guard:um sir... what is that?
Sorc:oh this? They are personal entourage
So, again, seriously what's the issue?
If he's strong enough to just wreck some guy in a fight, why is it an issue that he's taking a round to make an enemy weaker when he could have already killed him?
Also, why is everyone a Fighter? Fighters are pretty much the only class with such a dependence on specific weapons. Barbarians don't need 'em, Slayers don't need 'em, Cavaliers don't need 'em, (Anti)Paladins don't need 'em, etc.
If you're running a game where everyone is a Human Fighter, TBH it sounds kinda boring anyway. And even then, have them take that favored Class bonus that adds to your CMD against certain combat maneuvers. There's +11 to their CMD vs Sunder.
And the comments on it being a city campaign don't make sense. Presumably people who spend their time in a city take Quick Draw, because you don't walk around holding a weapon in a city and being able to draw your weapon faster is super useful in those circumstances. And they also keep backups for weapons, as they're facing other NPCs who might pull all the combat maneuvers "monsters" don't usually do. Or even just plain old having their stuff stolen somehow. And anyone who's dependent on a single weapon type like a fighter carries more than one of that weapon. You know, in case something happens to the first. Because they're presumably not a moron.
Wanted to quote these guys to make sure their advice wasn't lost. While they may use some strong language, they are completely right.
If it's an urban setting, then NPCs should be prepared for urban threats. Quickdraw and/or back up weapons would be commonplace. Fighters can get buffs to the CMD vs sunder without needing to house rule anything. And you really should use more than fighters to challenge the party.
Heck, for all the monk is regarded as a sub par class, sprinkling a few into encounters can really push PCs to the ropes. Your fighter will suddenly find it didn't matter that they sundered the temple sword out of this NPCs hand, and they find themselves eating a full flurry. Your wizard will think they are a safe distance away, and be shocked to discover this guy has the move speed to reach him and then whack him with a stunning fist. They will also need to adjust when suddenly the melee guys aren't just failing every will save and can evade a fireball.
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Look, my problem is with game design math, not actual PC.
I am willing to talk math!
My problem here is Furious Focus. It may seem not powerful feat as it doesn't work for iterative attacks, but in fact it is insanely effective for sundering. In 3.5 there was broken feat that allowed to trade Power Attack attack penalty to AC penalty, but Furious Focus is even more broken. No penalty at all! Smash enemy's armor/shield to pieces (you can't miss) and then your iterative attacks will just destroy him.
Furious Focus gives the fighter essentially a +4 to hit during his -4/+12 two-handed Power Attack. That is not the real problem.
With Power Attack, Furious Focus, and all other bonuses he basically has following stats on his first sunder attempt in round:
CMB: +12(BAB)+6(str)+1(wpn. enchant)+1(focus)+2(wpn. training)+3(shattering strike)+4(gr.sunder) = +29
Dmg: 2d4(falchion)+9(str)+1(wpn. enchant)+2(specializ)+2(wpn. training)+12(power attack)+3(shattering strike) = 2d4+29So, basically he always hits (85-90%) any level-appropriate enemy with sunder attempt and with his adamantine falchion destroys any weapon that doesn't have +3 enchantment with 1 hit. There is no issue in repairing weapons after combat with Make Whole, as party caster has 12 CL and it's enough to fix +1 and +2 weapons.
In general, specializing in a combat maneuver lets the fighter attack a weakness in some foes that is easier than attacking them directly. It is like a wizard deciding whether to use a spell with a Reflex save or as spell with a Will save: which one is more likely to succeed? Thus, effectively using a sunder specialization is supposed to have a high success rate.
However, combat maneuvers are balanced by weaknesses of their own. The usual weaknesses of specializing in sundering are that not all opponents rely on weapons, that sundering the weapon takes two or more rounds of successful damage to break the weapon, and that party members object to destroying potential loot. Sundering loses that second weakness at higher levels because the hit points of weapons do not scale up as quickly as the hit points for characters. The adamantine weapon helps greatly, too. Sundering lost the third weakness when the party caster learned Make Whole.
Thus, it is now overpowered. That is the math.
Some people suggested emphasizing the first weakness or exploiting a fighter's other weaknesses to counterbalance that.
1. We are playing urban-heavy campaign that involves a lot of humanoid threats. At 12th level I personally try to use APL +2 encounters. This means that I usually pit my PCs either versus 4 NPCs of CR 10 (level 11) or versus 8 NPCs of CR 8 (level 9) or versus 3 NPCs of CR 11 (level 12). I don't use single enemies due to action economy issue.
Using only monsters is not an option for me, thank you.2. "Just give everybody adamantine weapons" - is not a solution IMHO, it will just look strange fluff-wise.
3. "10/min duration buffs" - same as above. Why would suddenly all NPCs will have this specialized buff? After all it works only 1,5-2 hours at this level and let's say when "its buff time" they have more important buffs to drink/cast.
All valid points. Not only due urban-heavy campaigns have primarily weapon-reliant humanoid enemies, but so do war campaigns against humanoid nations and religious campaigns against humanoid cultists.
I admire your dedication to plausibility. It enriches a campaign.
I am curious about the encounters against 8 NPCs of CR 8. They have more weapons than 4 NPCs of CR 10, so should reduce the effectiveness of the sundering. Have you observed this? If so, try 12 NPCs of CR 7, some of them archers. Or the 8 NPCs of CR 8 could include one 9th level wizard who is casting the buffs on the other seven.
Likewise, since this is an urban campaign, you can justify many countermeasures as the reputation of the party spreading. Throw a few more unarmed-strike or natural-weapon martial characters against them in situations where their reputation would proceed them. I currently play a 12th-level barbarian with the Beast Totem rage abilities and Quickdraw. Sundering her weapon would result in her pulling out another weapon or switching to her Beast Totem claws with no loss in number of attacks. On the other hand, she would lose to your fighter in straight combat, because she is optimized for versatility rather than damage. A knife-throwing Quickdraw rogue would be just as believable.
That being said: it feels late to start trying to screw with that math now. Your fighter is 12 levels in and tailored himself to be able to sunder stuff. Nerfing his build himself will probably upset him more than merely raising the challenge of encounters.
Yes, you would have to present the nerf very carefully. For example, you could explain to the fighter player how frequent sundering is making designing enemies difficult for you, so you would like to weaken his sundering in ways that strengthen him otherwise, so that his fighter would use other tactics more often. If your Furious Focus revision halved the penalty for all attacks instead of just the first two (and keeping track would be easier), that would fit the explanation. But Furious Focus is not the heart of the problem.
So, again, seriously what's the issue?
If he's strong enough to just wreck some guy in a fight, why is it an issue that he's taking a round to make an enemy weaker when he could have already killed him?
Also, why is everyone a Fighter? Fighters are pretty much the only class with such a dependence on specific weapons. Barbarians don't need 'em, Slayers don't need 'em, Cavaliers don't need 'em, (Anti)Paladins don't need 'em, etc.
If you're running a game where everyone is a Human Fighter, TBH it sounds kinda boring anyway. And even then, have them take that favored Class bonus that adds to your CMD against certain combat maneuvers. There's +11 to their CMD vs Sunder.
And the comments on it being a city campaign don't make sense. Presumably people who spend their time in a city take Quick Draw, because you don't walk around holding a weapon in a city and being able to draw your weapon faster is super useful in those circumstances. And they also keep backups for weapons, as they're facing other NPCs who might pull all the combat maneuvers "monsters" don't usually do. Or even just plain old having their stuff stolen somehow. And anyone who's dependent on a single weapon type like a fighter carries more than one of that weapon. You know, in case something happens to the first. Because they're presumably not a moron.Wanted to quote these guys to make sure their advice wasn't lost. While they may use some strong language, they are completely right.
If it's an urban setting, then NPCs should be prepared for urban threats. Quickdraw and/or back up weapons would be commonplace. Fighters can get buffs to the CMD vs sunder without needing to house rule anything. And you really should use more than fighters to challenge the party.
Heck, for all the monk is regarded as a sub par class, sprinkling a few into encounters can really push PCs to the ropes. Your fighter will suddenly find it didn't matter that they sundered the temple sword out of this...
I was about to make a snarky comment about monks being sad about the level 12 Flying Invisible Mirror Image'd wizard, the druid Allosaurus pounce/hippo vital strike machine and the CaGM RAGELANCEPOUNCer, but...
What exactly are the other PCs doing? If you are throwing mostly fighters at the party, then a lot of classes should be utterly wrecking them constantly, like the ones listed above.
Here, lets make a (non-inclusive) list.
Things that screw NPC melee fighters:
a)Anything that can force a will save or suck/lose/be my ***** - see:fullcasters and the majority of 6th level casters
b)Anything with enough mobility to keep out of melee and a way to attack effectively from range - see:fullcasters, a significant chunk of 6th level casters and anyone filling the ranged martial role who can pick up a fly buff
c)Anything that can force a reflex save or suck/lose - See: Arcane full casters, some other casters
d)Anything that can drop crippling BFC that a fightey man simply can't deal with - See: a lot of casters, especially Druidic and Arcane
e)Anything that can Pounce or Pseudo-pounce into melee and 1 round the NPC - see: Barbarians, Druids, Lancers, Non-Master Summoners, well built/buffed ACs, a variety of archetypes that give mobility options
a), c)(less so), d) and e) apply to ranged as well, plus ranged can be crippled by something as simple as dropping summons in their face or a reach weapon+combat reflexes unless the NPC has point blank master(which probably won't happen if the NPC isn't completely focused on archery).
Am I missing anything? I don't understand what the rest of the party is doing if a sunder specialist(who 2 rounds NPCs at best, because sunder) is apparently the MVP in combat.
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My Opinion;
Mrakvampire, it's your table, you can talk with the player and reach an agreement to nerf furious focus, maybe it reduces the penalty instead of annule it, maybe it counts only to make h damage, i'm sure you can reach an agreement with him, even if the agreement end up let everthing as is.
BUT, i encourage you solve this "problem" another way.
You said that it's a urban campaign. I assume it's combat heavy, hence why the fighter is becoming a nuisance. Probably they oppose a organization. /if it's the case, the organization's boss already knows the group tactics and the swordbreaking knack that the fighter has, if it is so, make the boss hire mercenaries specialized in counter-manuever the fighter, he can even hire monsters capable to polymorph into humanoids (via abilities, spells or magical items). Give the opportunity to the group know of this arrival, so they can prepare for it, this tactic has the advantage to nulify the fighter tactic and make the rest of the party shine (i'm assuming the fighter stoles the moment of the rest of the party). Think about the old Tarantino's movies as examples of this.
Have fun!
Afterthought: About "backup weapons"; i've never did this with my npcs, of course, a side weapon like a dagger, shortsword, etc, it's normal, but two greatword?? Nah, never did this, nor we see this in videogames, films or APs. There are more creative ways to counter this issue (already mentioned in this thread and in this post).
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Afterthought: About "backup weapons"; i've never did this with my npcs, of course, a side weapon like a dagger, shortsword, etc, it's normal, but two greatword?? Nah, never did this, nor we see this in videogames, films or APs. There are more creative ways to counter this issue (already mentioned in this thread and in this post).
If you want an example of backup weapons, see Breanne of Tarth. Jaime's comment about it (he never understood why some knights felt the need to walk around with two swords) clearly indicates that it is semi-common practice among GoT/SoIaF knights.
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instead of "hey you are a good player, let me reward you with a penalty!" just give the mooks a random secret untype bonus to cmd and be done with itI'm honest with my players. If I will change Furious Focus, same changes will apply to NPCs.
So how many of your NPCs have furious focus? like in numbers...
Also if i was in your game and you say "im going to nerf furious focus because is broken" I would go ok great, im not going to specialize in sunder , im going to specialize in disarm, which is kind of the same but more effective, since i dont have to roll damage. Or else, i could specialize in trip which actually aplies to more things.Or dirty tricks, which are more versatile because you can actually make an oponent blind for pretty much the whole fight.
At this point probably you will be nerfing all manuevers
At which point I would say ok, im gonna play a barbarian and deal 200hp x round, which is actually better than sundering weapons.
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Do you really think an extra -2 penalty is going to stop the fighter from sundering the weapons of mooks reliably? Because I highly doubt it will.Idea is not to stop fighter from doing it, idea is to normalize chances. Make them more even and not 100%-ish.
I hate this idea that a lot of GM's have. "OH they invested something to be good at doing X (stealth, perception, accuracy) And now they succeed 80-95% of the time, that's no good, the game isn't fun unless it's a 50/50 chance for things to work. All stealth checks are 10+ your stealth mod. Perception is 10+your perception mod. AC is 10+your attack bonus." nerfing somebody's thing that they got good at is a bad move.
Just an idea, but if they are in the same urban area and word starts getting around, any front liner would be remiss to not pick up a fortifying stone or 2 and slap them on their main weapon. If I was playing in that campaign I wouldn't take that as the GM hosing my build, but more enemies playing smart.
one of the easiest ways to stop this is to use a brutal pugilist barbarian archetype. they get a free AO against anyone who attempts a combat maneuver against then even with improved sunder. they rage hit the sundering fighter for a ton and then that is added to your CMD against the check.
Brutal Pugilist can apply a +1 bonus to CMD for any maneuver of their choice, but the AoO thing is Grapple only. And FYI, I understand where you're coming from on the DMG->CMD reading (by negating Imp Grapple/Grab's removal of AoO, the previous AoO with special DMG->CMD quality would seem to be re-instated), but I don't think the RAW is 100% sufficient to justify that reading, although I do think it is FAQ worthy.
=
Have fun!Afterthought: About "backup weapons"; i've never did this with my npcs, of course, a side weapon like a dagger, shortsword, etc, it's normal, but two greatword?? Nah, never did this, nor we see this in videogames, films or APs. There are more creative ways to counter this issue (already mentioned in this thread and in this post).
Have you looked at the iconics lately?
http://socialzero.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/pathfinder-iconics-1024 x640.jpg
Pretty much every one of them that isn't a caster has at least 4 weapons, including multiple heavy weapons. It's very common for players and NPCs alike to carry multiple weapons. More tools for the job!
And largely, if you see an effective tactic being used by PCs, why not ask yourself:
Why wouldn't other NPCs also use this tactic if it's successful? If so, wouldn't NPCs at large
understand the threat of that tactic and take standard defensive measures which are effective against it?
That's not cheating the PCs, its just in world consistency.
For a level 12 martial NPC, an adamantine weapon is not a huge expense,
and if you're enchanting it to +2 anyways, why not "insure" that investment with adamantine?
If they are Fighters, think about the Favored Class Bonus to CMD... And their Weapon Training bonus to CMD.
Quickdraw has no Pre-Reqs and is ALSO more broadly useful in enabling multi-weapon approaches.
(i.e. instantly switching between reach and non-reach weapon)
Barbarians have lots of AoO options that have been mentioned.
2WFers in general are more resilient vs. Sunder/Disarm and also tend to be less weapon dependent.
Also not mentioned yet: Fighting Defensively boosts CMD as well...
(make sure to have 3+ ranks in Acrobatics to get -3 instead of +2 Fighitng Defensive bonus)
And stuff like Crane Wing also helps alot, and is class neutral...
Ok, thank you for all your responses. Let me sum up several key points that need to be highlighted:
1. We are playing urban-heavy campaign that involves a lot of humanoid threats. At 12th level I personally try to use APL +2 encounters. This means that I usually pit my PCs either versus 4 NPCs of CR 10 (level 11) or versus 8 NPCs of CR 8 (level 9) or versus 3 NPCs of CR 11 (level 12). I don't use single enemies due to action economy issue.
Using only monsters is not an option for me, thank you.2. "Just give everybody adamantine weapons" - is not a solution IMHO, it will just look strange fluff-wise.
3. "10/min duration buffs" - same as above. Why would suddenly all NPCs will have this specialized buff? After all it works only 1,5-2 hours at this level and let's say when "its buff time" they have more important buffs to drink/cast.
This is an urban campaign. Where are the cops/keepers-of-the-peace? Making this much commotion will draw notice.
10 min buffs: As 12th level chars, they are legends. Everyone has heard stories (not all accurate) about them. If they are going after some organization, that group should be sending prebuffed attackers or setting up ambushes. They can get that buff up against a known strategy. If the group they are after is not reacting to its losses, that is a GM issue, not a player issue.
/cevah
Hello All,
One of PCs in my group is fighter (TH archetype).
With Power Attack, Furious Focus, and all other bonuses he basically has following stats on his first sunder attempt in round:CMB: +12(base)+6(str)+1(weapon)+1(focus)+2(training)+3(shattering)+4(gr.sunder) = +29
Dmg: 2d4(falchion)+9(str)+1(enchant)+2(specializ)+2(training)+12(power)+3(shatte ring) = 2d4+29So, basically he always hits (85-90%) any level-appropriate enemy with sunder attempt and with his adamantine falchion destroys any weapon that doesn't have +3 enchantment with 1 hit. There is no issue in repairing weapons after combat with Make Whole, as party caster has 12 CL and it's enough to fix +1 and +2 weapons.
I don't know what to do actually. Math looks completely broken for my taste. Even in 3.5 (that was clearly more unbalanced) I don't remember such ridiculous situations.
Furious Focus just needs to be nerfed (+12 dmg on sunder without any tradeoff is HUGE)
Let him sunder. He is destroying his own loot.
Let him sunder. He is destroying his own loot.Hello All,
One of PCs in my group is fighter (TH archetype).
With Power Attack, Furious Focus, and all other bonuses he basically has following stats on his first sunder attempt in round:CMB: +12(base)+6(str)+1(weapon)+1(focus)+2(training)+3(shattering)+4(gr.sunder) = +29
Dmg: 2d4(falchion)+9(str)+1(enchant)+2(specializ)+2(training)+12(power)+3(shatte ring) = 2d4+29So, basically he always hits (85-90%) any level-appropriate enemy with sunder attempt and with his adamantine falchion destroys any weapon that doesn't have +3 enchantment with 1 hit. There is no issue in repairing weapons after combat with Make Whole, as party caster has 12 CL and it's enough to fix +1 and +2 weapons.
I don't know what to do actually. Math looks completely broken for my taste. Even in 3.5 (that was clearly more unbalanced) I don't remember such ridiculous situations.
Furious Focus just needs to be nerfed (+12 dmg on sunder without any tradeoff is HUGE)
He mentioned the casters are fixing the loot afterwards. The fighter is totally OK with breaking stuff, because there aren't any long term consequences.
He mentioned the casters are fixing the loot afterwards. The fighter is totally OK with breaking stuff, because there aren't any long term consequences.Let him sunder. He is destroying his own loot.Hello All,
One of PCs in my group is fighter (TH archetype).
With Power Attack, Furious Focus, and all other bonuses he basically has following stats on his first sunder attempt in round:CMB: +12(base)+6(str)+1(weapon)+1(focus)+2(training)+3(shattering)+4(gr.sunder) = +29
Dmg: 2d4(falchion)+9(str)+1(enchant)+2(specializ)+2(training)+12(power)+3(shatte ring) = 2d4+29So, basically he always hits (85-90%) any level-appropriate enemy with sunder attempt and with his adamantine falchion destroys any weapon that doesn't have +3 enchantment with 1 hit. There is no issue in repairing weapons after combat with Make Whole, as party caster has 12 CL and it's enough to fix +1 and +2 weapons.
I don't know what to do actually. Math looks completely broken for my taste. Even in 3.5 (that was clearly more unbalanced) I don't remember such ridiculous situations.
Furious Focus just needs to be nerfed (+12 dmg on sunder without any tradeoff is HUGE)
Well, it's about time there should be. It's no offense to the Fighter, he isn't happy unless he breaks stuff; but he shouldn't have to use Sunder for every situation, and quite frankly, there should be situations where Sunder is a really bad thing to do. Case in point, using Sunder on an Artifact would probably cause great issue with his tactics, as such Artifacts may actually explode for a lot of damage, and end up killing party members. (Let's see them use Make Whole on that!)
Another example is key items that cannot be fixed; if an enemy is making use of it, and the Fighter sunders it, looks like the Fighter ended up screwing the party over with his overused tactics.
Or when the Big Bad's loot is extremely powerful, useful, and valuable, so much that the PCs can't afford to use Make Whole to fix it.
Cutting out the fail safe (which is Make Whole) will make the Fighter more conscious of his actions, as I think this could probably be the biggest fix to killing two birds with one stone (Fighter stops being a one-trick pony, and doesn't end up causing some major harm to the party).
Do you have an idea on how to stop sundering without giving every mook a custom artifact sword(it has to be custom, because normal artifacts don't break unless under very specific conditions)? The fighter is breaking their weapons. He may or may not be breaking armor. I doubt he is breaking anything else. How many "key" items are swords in the hands of mooks? Putting counters on the boss is a waste of time as well, because in the meantime the fighter is wrecking about as many weapons as he was before. On top of that, you are going to need pretty damn expensive gear for the casters to not Greater Make Whole+prayer beads or whatnot. In other words, you are going to have to GM fiat the fighter into the ground. This is not a healthy dynamic, and when the party actually fights the boss it will seem like the GM made them just to screw over the fighter (and that's pretty much what happened).
As for the one trick pony thing...he is actually a two trick pony. Sunder and lolFighterDamage are his two tricks. Screw him into the ground until sundering is a waste of space, and then he will be a 1 trick pony (unless he retrains into disarm or trip or something, but then we are back to square 1, now with fewer counters that don't involve casters or non-humanoids).
Honestly, if he is having problems with a sunder fighter in an urban game I can only imagine his frustration with a trip lore warden... at least the sunder fighter still lets you DO something..
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Honestly, if he is having problems with a sunder fighter in an urban game I can only imagine his frustration with a trip lore warden... at least the sunder fighter still lets you DO something..
Even better, imagine a CaGM barbarian with greater sunder, dazing assault and pounce.
"I pounce in and smack him. First attack breaks his sword, half of the damage carries over. Second breaks his armor, half carries over. Third just smacks him for a lot, and it will hit because he suddenly has terribad AC. Oh yeah, and make a fort save, because Dazing Assault lol. Natural 20? No problem. He pulls a back up weapon and swings? OK. I sunder it again, most of the damage carries over, fort save vs daze kgo. He's dead, you say?. Gee, no surprise there. Don't worry, I only have 3 more attacks of opportunity this round and a use of Strength surge up."
Honestly, if he is having problems with a sunder fighter in an urban game I can only imagine his frustration with a trip lore warden... at least the sunder fighter still lets you DO something..Even better, imagine a CaGM barbarian with greater sunder, dazing assault and pounce.
"I pounce in and smack him. First attack breaks his sword, half of the damage carries over. Second breaks his armor, half carries over. Third just smacks him for a lot, and it will hit because he suddenly has terribad AC. Oh yeah, and make a fort save, because Dazing Assault lol. Natural 20? No problem. He pulls a back up weapon and swings? OK. I sunder it again, most of the damage carries over, fort save vs daze kgo. He's dead, you say?. Gee, no surprise there. Don't worry, I only have 3 more attacks of opportunity this round and a use of Strength surge up."
A martial with nice things... :D Too bad Fighters can't do that. :(
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If you want an example of backup weapons, see Breanne of Tarth. Jaime's comment about it (he never understood why some knights felt the need to walk around with two swords) clearly indicates that it is semi-common practice among GoT/SoIaF knights....
Afterthought: About "backup weapons"; i've never did this with my npcs, of course, a side weapon like a dagger, shortsword, etc, it's normal, but two greatword?? Nah, never did this, nor we see this in videogames, films or APs. There are more creative ways to counter this issue (already mentioned in this thread and in this post).
A seasoned knight making fun of whom he understood at the time, was not a good fighter.
Sideswords were the norm, but we are talking about daggers, shortswords or hand axes, not copies of the main weapon - you could carry two long blades, but risking being mistaken by an warrior without self confidence or a squire carrying his master's blades... or you could get a squire.
Adventurers, on the other hand, end up with many different weapons, knights carried at least four different weapons (normally, lance, sword, mace or flail and dagger). But it was not usual.
Or you can ignore all this and say; "fudge it! My npcs carrys 5 copies of his main weapon!" Not my playstyle, but... OK!
Help for the OP: Are you counting the extra HP that magical swords get?
Hardness and Hit Points: Each +1 of a magic weapon’s enhancement bonus adds +2 to its hardness and +10 to its hit points. See also Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points.
Ir's not a big help, but this can make the npcs weapons hold an extra round or two (if lucky).
If you want an example of backup weapons, see Breanne of Tarth. Jaime's comment about it (he never understood why some knights felt the need to walk around with two swords) clearly indicates that it is semi-common practice among GoT/SoIaF knights....
Afterthought: About "backup weapons"; i've never did this with my npcs, of course, a side weapon like a dagger, shortsword, etc, it's normal, but two greatword?? Nah, never did this, nor we see this in videogames, films or APs. There are more creative ways to counter this issue (already mentioned in this thread and in this post).
A seasoned knight making fun of whom he understood at the time, was not a good fighter.
Sideswords were the norm, but we are talking about daggers, shortswords or hand axes, not copies of the main weapon - you could carry two long blades, but risking being mistaken by an warrior without self confidence or a squire carrying his master's blades... or you could get a squire.
Adventurers, on the other hand, end up with many different weapons, knights carried at least four different weapons (normally, lance, sword, mace or flail and dagger). But it was not usual.
Or you can ignore all this and say; "fudge it! My npcs carrys 5 copies of his main weapon!" Not my playstyle, but... OK
Unless you are using fighters, there's really no reason why you need to be using 5 copies of the same weapon. Heck, even if it is a fighter, you can carry multiple weapons that fall into the same weapon group. A greataxe, a battle axe, a hand axe, and some throwing axes would be entirely reasonable for a character to use, especially if they are going to be fighting indoors and may need to adapt to someone grappling them at a moments notice.
But if you are a barbarian, for example, there is no reason you can't carry both an Earthbreaker and a long sword, plus a couple spears or shortswords or whatever. This is directly supported by both the mechanics and the lore of the game, seeing as how it's iconic characters use very similar load ups.
Again, varying enemy classes and equipment entirely solves this problem. Imagine this fighter going up against a reach weapon, sucking an AoO to get close, sunder the spear, only to realize this schmuck has TWF and quickdraw and he's taking the whole full attack routine now.
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See, I disagree that NPCs should only have 1 weapon. While players PCs often have only 1 weapon (due to enchantment costs) I think every PC should still have a couple of back up weapons. And some sort of ranged weapon.
Clubs and slings are free. Honestly, I think anyone who is actually expecting combat and only has one weapon on them is terribly unprepared and not a particularly wise combatant.
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See, I disagree that NPCs should only have 1 weapon. While players PCs often have only 1 weapon (due to enchantment costs) I think every PC should still have a couple of back up weapons. And some sort of ranged weapon.
Clubs and slings are free. Honestly, I think anyone who is actually expecting combat and only has one weapon on them is terribly unprepared and not a particularly wise combatant.
In general, i agree. My games are far from generic, but that's my problem.
Maybe the OP has the same problem, and it's a general discussion not Rules Question. He seemed unsatisfied with the simple solution to "put a couple more weapons on the NPC", i was trying to give him other solutions.
Maybe the fighter is not wise, maybe he is proud of his only weapon, maybe he is poor or his organization mandates certain limited armament.
Maybe he don't likes clubs and slings.
But yes, the obvious solution is to carry many weapons.
Just not the only one.
So wait, what solutions are there?
Magic weapons won't really help unless the GM is happy tossing +5 swords the party's way constantly. Attacks with an Adamantine weapon and specialized sunder abilities do too much damage to fold to that.
I have seen suggestions about running alternative classes like brawler instead of fighter.
In a broader sense, there has been advice to throw more mixed encounters at the PCs which utilize a variety of class and monster options so that Sunder may or may not be a major hindrance to any particular NPC(and it might not be clear beforehand whether or not they care much).
There is giving the NPCs moar weapons, obviously. Plus maybe quickdraw.
There is the "Artifact Swords and CL18 gear" approach, which is bad for reasons I listed above. Unless handing out Gloomblades to every NPC sounds reasonable (and god help the OP when a caster levels up or picks up a CL booster)?
Am I missing anything?
This is an urban campaign. Where are the cops/keepers-of-the-peace? Making this much commotion will draw notice.
Probably keeping out of the way. The highest level city guard in Paizo's NPC Gallery is the Watch Captain, a 7th level human fighter. The enemy is employing groups of eight 9th level human fighters, so the city guard is outclassed.
Sadly, at high levels either the urban setting becomes just another battlefield, or the city hires high-level heroes to temporarily help out. Perhaps the party was hired by the city.
Add in a Parry specialist. Now it goes:
Fighter: Sunder!
NPC: Parry.
Fighter: I said Sunder!
NPC: Parry.
Fighter: SUNDER!!
NPC: Parry.
Fighter: Sunder?
NPC: Parry.
Fighter: Sunder? [whimper]
NPC: Parry.
and so on.
/cevah
Add in a Parry specialist
Parry specialist?
Add in a Parry specialist. Now it goes:
Fighter: Sunder!
NPC: Parry.
Fighter: I said Sunder!
NPC: Parry.
Fighter: SUNDER!!
NPC: Parry.
Fighter: Sunder?
NPC: Parry.
Fighter: Sunder? [whimper]
NPC: Parry.and so on.
/cevah
Most "Parry" effects are an Immediate action, so...huh?
Most "Parry" effects are an Immediate action, so...huh?Add in a Parry specialist. Now it goes:
Fighter: Sunder!
NPC: Parry.
Fighter: I said Sunder!
NPC: Parry.
Fighter: SUNDER!!
NPC: Parry.
Fighter: Sunder?
NPC: Parry.
Fighter: Sunder? [whimper]
NPC: Parry.and so on.
/cevah
Can't Swashbuckler spam Parry? Likewise for a Magus with Flamboyant Arcana.
It's just Riptose that's an immediate action. Parry only expends an AOO attempt.
It also requires an opposed attack roll, so the chances of success for these mooks is likely to be somewhat low considering he's a Sunder focused character with a minimum of BaB Gap+4 (from Improved/Greater Sunder) on their attack rolls,and likely more from a higher Str and a better weapon.
It also requires an opposed attack roll, so the chances of success for these mooks is likely to be somewhat low considering he's a Sunder focused character with a minimum of BaB Gap+4 (from Improved/Greater Sunder) on their attack rolls,and likely more from a higher Str and a better weapon.
I forgot that since the sunder is an attack roll he would be getting at least +4 from the sunder feat chain.
Yikes. Yep, that isn't likely to work well for a mook...I guess you could do it with a magus that could cast True strike and has a really high acrobatics score to deny full attacks. Although it probably isn't even tactically sound. It is really just trolling the fighter at that point.
To be honest the way you guys have been talking to OP is pretty disgusting.
Here we have a non-native english speaker who seems to be happily running a low optimization game (Which is nothing to be ashamed of. In my experience people only learn to optimize if it's necessary) that has some questions.
Instead of taking him seriously and addressing his concerns kindly and with depth, we have people making fun of him for believing that a fighter could break his game and people saying that his spellcasting players are bad at the game!
OP has less than 100 posts made on the forum, cut him some slack and be cool.
Sorry if this has been a sour experience.
This is an urban campaign. Where are the cops/keepers-of-the-peace? Making this much commotion will draw notice.Probably keeping out of the way. The highest level city guard in Paizo's NPC Gallery is the Watch Captain, a 7th level human fighter. The enemy is employing groups of eight 9th level human fighters, so the city guard is outclassed.
Sadly, at high levels either the urban setting becomes just another battlefield, or the city hires high-level heroes to temporarily help out. Perhaps the party was hired by the city.
Except... the City Guard does not challenge criminals / rabblerousers to a chain of 1-on-1 duels to stop them.
They call for backup. And bring their 30 friends with them. And perhaps send a runner to the local Wizard in good standing with the Watch with an urgend request for assistance. Melees can easily be swarmed by less-dangerous, but much more numerous other melees. They do not cast Fly and then pull out a Wand of Fireball to rain down firey death from above, to the sound of Ride of the Valkyries.
Analogus: If an american patrolman encounters a bunch of criminals with Body Armor and AK47s, he calls 1st: for backup, and 2nd: for the SWAT-team. And i see ABSOLUTLY NO scenario in which The State simply rolls over and let the Criminals simply do as they please, just because they will most likly win in a series of 1-on-1 duels, if they get breaks to heal up in between....
Here we have a non-native english speaker
Considering his English is better than many of the posters even on these boards, I don't think that contributed at all to any of the initial confusion.
Instead of taking him seriously and addressing his concerns kindly and with depth, we have people making fun of him for believing that a fighter could break his game and people saying that his spellcasting players are bad at the game!
Some people have been like that, but a lot of people have addressed his concerns helpfully.
As for the spellcasters - there's presumably a cleric or wizard in the game, since they have someone who can cast Make Whole. It's not difficult to make a caster at that level who can easily defeat NPC fighters with a single 'Will Save or you're helpless' spell in a much more decisive manner than destroying one weapon. So it might be that his casters have low system mastery, or it might be that they're deliberately under-optimizing, or... well, there are other possibilities such as 'GM doesn't mind when they do it because they have limited spells per day', or 'GM fudges Will saves behind a screen'...