hi all,
we fought a nasty bug vomiting, disease spreading creature last night.
Leukodaemon CR 9
as the battle progressed, the daemon used hover at 20 ft and picked us apart with contagion-laced arrows and spitting 20ft cone of flies. I tried to use my reach weapon (fauchard) to drag or reposition the daemon to a lower than 20ft level. i was guessing i would need to run and leap to be able to attempt a combat maneuver. acrobatics dc would be whatever the gm would deem appropriate.
well. i was told it was impossible to pull off. gm said it was the same as trying to use a grappling hook to drag it down which also would be equally absurd.
we slowly beat it down and won the battle.....
wondering how fellow gms and players out there would have ruled or expected this scenario to play out. it's tough for a player to describe how they want to solve a battle dilemma and then be told that it was impossible.
any thoughts would be great!!!
Not to be "that guy" but slings are free...
If you actually had a group capable of facing CR 9 with NO RANGED then your party sucks big donkey chunks.
Spells, bows, crossbows, thrown weapons, jump checks, hexes... all of these can affect ranged.
Did the bad guy use wings to fly? If not a dispel magic might have gotten him down. If yes perhaps a tanglefootbag might have helped.
Recently there was a thread on how to down flyers.
Look here.
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So if I understood this situation, correctly none of you have ranged attacks or spells?
Well jumping 20 ft in the air is very difficult but with your reach weapon, you could at least try to jump 10 ft in the air and strike him.
Don't get me wrong...it is still very hard.
vertical jump 10 ft in the air, DC 40 acrobatic check, is an absurd DC to say the least.
Not to be "that guy" but slings are free...
If you actually had a group capable of facing CR 9 with NO RANGED then your party sucks big donkey chunks.
Spells, bows, crossbows, thrown weapons, jump checks, hexes... all of these can affect ranged.
DR 10/good or silver
we have plenty of ranged... so does this daemonRanged +1 composite longbow +18/+13 (2d6+8/×3 plus contagion)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks breath of flies
we didn't want to trade attacks with it while we were making disease saves and.....
as a standard action, a leukodaemon can unleash a cloud of corpse-bloated, biting black flies in a 20-foot cone. Those caught in the cone take 8d6 points of slashing damage. A DC 21 Reflex save halves this damage.
we wanted to get it down and grapple it or rip it to shreds
ty for your insight
There is a polearm that essentially allows trips on flying characters... can't recall the name... It's designed for dragons, but affects anything with wings.
That plus fly on a martial.
Flying characters can be tough, spells are pretty much required if you want to move it around I guess.
So if I understood this situation, correctly none of you have ranged attacks or spells?
Well jumping 20 ft in the air is very difficult but with your reach weapon, you could at least try to jump 10 ft in the air and strike him.
Don't get me wrong...it is still very hard.
vertical jump 10 ft in the air, DC 40 acrobatic check, is an absurd DC to say the least.
i don't know how this turned into "you have no spells or distance weapons!?!?!!" lol, of course we do
we felt like it would be better to try to get it down to our level instead of letting it pick us apart with full round action poison contagion arrows and spitting 8d6 damage fly cones
There is a polearm that essentially allows trips on flying characters... can't recall the name... It's designed for dragons, but affects anything with wings.
That plus fly on a martial.
Flying characters can be tough, spells are pretty much required if you want to move it around I guess.
Dragoncatch Guisarme
Aura moderate conjuration; CL 8th; Weight 5 lbs.; Price 13,308 gp
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Potions of fly - For 750 gp each, every member of your party should be able to get themselves flying if they need to. Now melee characters can engage.
Ranged Weapons - Crossbows, slings (free), and bows. Even if you're not good with them, doing something is better than doing nothing.
Obscuring Mist - So they can't sit at range and attack you accurately
Find cover - The enemy can't do much if your hiding behind something (total cover means the enemy can't attack you).
It mostly just seems like your party was completely unprepared to deal with a situation that wasn't the enemies serving themselves to you on a platter.
As to the method you suggested, it's not impossible. Just hugely improbable. You would have needed to jump 10ft into the air, even with your reach weapon. That's a DC 40 acrobatics check, with a running start for the jump. Without knowing exactly what level you are, this lands on the side of highly improbable. Beyond that, you would need expert team work to actually keep the guy down since he could always fly up and away again. This time resting at 25 ft. Meaning you need to jump 15 ft high, for a DC 60 acrobatics check.
Or you know...just be reasonably prepared.
There is a polearm that essentially allows trips on flying characters... can't recall the name... It's designed for dragons, but affects anything with wings.
That plus fly on a martial.
Flying characters can be tough, spells are pretty much required if you want to move it around I guess.
Dragoncatch Guisarme
Aura moderate conjuration; CL 8th; Weight 5 lbs.; Price 13,308 gp
I saw it in play, VERY effective.
what if i used a potion of enlarge on my fighter? dc 40 acrobatics would drop to what?
large creature with natural reach using a reach polearm and has lunge feat? seems like a flying creature with hover at 20 ft is on the moon....lol can't see why it so impossible to attempt a combat maneuver like drag on it
Why would you want to get it down? A bit of smoke, and that sucker can no longer target anyone. A bit of wind, and he blows away out of range of his cone attack. He has no cover, no foothold and nowhere to manoeuvre. That Demon is a sitting - correction: hovering duck!
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what if i used a potion of enlarge on my fighter? dc 40 acrobatics would drop to what?
large creature with natural reach using a reach polearm and has lunge feat? seems like a flying creature with hover at 20 ft is on the moon....lol can't see why it so impossible to attempt a combat maneuver like drag on it
Without lunge:
you would need 15 ft to reach him, so a 5 ft height jump, DC 20 acrobatics check instead of 10 ft. But depending how tall the ceiling is, might not even be relevant, since the enemy could just fly away some more. Guessing he wanted to stay close because of his poison tactic.With lunge, you wouldn't even need to jump if the creature is within 20 ft but well, I imagine that the dm would just move the creature further away or higher to avoid your reach.
ty all for posts,
we did defeat this nasty creature. silver arrows from the archer, smite evil from paladin to overcome dr. two pcs got contagion disease (slimy doom and leprosy ) in retrospect, a well placed obscuring mist or smokestick would of been very useful. we were (at the time) trying to drag it down to prevent it from ranged disease attacking, summoning another daemon, and teleporting away again. the aoo it would provoke and the concentration checks it would have to make seemed like a good thing at the time.
Breath of Flies (Su)
Once per minute as a standard action, a leukodaemon can unleash a cloud of corpse-bloated, biting black flies in a 20-foot cone. Those caught in the cone take 8d6 points of slashing damage. A DC 21 Reflex save halves this damage. Those who take any damage are also sickened for 1 minute. In addition, the flies linger for 1d4+1 rounds, congealing into a buzzing 20-foot-square cloud centered on the cone’s original point of origin. Any creature that ends its turn in this cloud must make a DC 21 Reflex save to avoid taking 4d6 points of damage and becoming sickened for 1 minute. This cloud of flies may be dispersed by any area effect that does damage or creates wind of at least strong wind force. All daemons are immune to this effect. The save DCs are Constitution-based.
the gm also ruled that the daemon had concealment so we were taking 20% miss chances to hit
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My favorite tactic involves a decent jump score, true strike, and a net. Gravity does the rest.
Most fliers can't really keep flying when another person suddenly gets added to their carry weight.
Rope.
what if i used a potion of enlarge on my fighter? dc 40 acrobatics would drop to what?
large creature with natural reach using a reach polearm and has lunge feat? seems like a flying creature with hover at 20 ft is on the moon....lol can't see why it so impossible to attempt a combat maneuver like drag on it
Enlarge with a reach weapon and you are golden. You can reach a critter 30' high. You are 10' tall, and you have a reach of 20'. You can melee it to your heart's content without jumping.
Enlarge + reach weapon removes the need for acrobatics. You have 20' reach with the weapon (Enlarge gives you natural reach). Other than that, spamming summons that can fly up to him is a good idea.
Casters at this point should have access to Fly or Air Walk, most likely.
I have always been fond of simply finding cover and readying attacks so that when the bad guy comes in range I get to smack his ugly little face.
You don't have to fight him on his terms, move to a different room where the ceilings aren't so high, etc. Lasso him, smoke him out of the room, etc. There are plenty of options, but most are based on what is available at the time/place.
Enlarge with a reach weapon and you are golden. You can reach a critter 30' high. You are 10' tall, and you have a reach of 20'. You can melee it to your heart's content without jumping.what if i used a potion of enlarge on my fighter? dc 40 acrobatics would drop to what?
large creature with natural reach using a reach polearm and has lunge feat? seems like a flying creature with hover at 20 ft is on the moon....lol can't see why it so impossible to attempt a combat maneuver like drag on it
i thought so too....some other posters had different opinions. i came close to using a potion but after the idea of using drag/reposistion options were not given to me i opted to just doing standard damage.
Some Spell Ideas:
To Get to It: Fly, Enlarge, Returning Weapon
To avoid its arrows: Wind Wall, Prot. from Arrows
To make it come down: Command, Charm Monster, Suggestion
what if i used a potion of enlarge on my fighter? dc 40 acrobatics would drop to what?
large creature with natural reach using a reach polearm and has lunge feat? seems like a flying creature with hover at 20 ft is on the moon....lol can't see why it so impossible to attempt a combat maneuver like drag on it
large creature with reach weapon would hit 20ft without jumping.
There you go, problem solved.
If the GM disallowed drag, he is house ruling.
Nothing in drag says or even implies that it wouldn't work on a flying creature.
That would totally work.
Also, if you could reach him, you could sunder his weapon, another option. Or disarm, so when he comes to the ground to get it, you grapple.
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Grappling hook should of worked, i found a decent ruling for grappling hooks on the forums awhile ago, basically hit the creatures touch AC for a chance to hook him (creature does a reflex save) then both people are "grappled" str check to see who is in control of the grapple. the person holding the rope can release at anytime to remove them self from the "grapple". Creature can attempt to dislodge them self from the hook with a full round action. Or if you hit the creatures AC you do 1d4 damage and you get a +5 bonus on the check to control the grapple and the creature gets not reflex save to avoid being hooked, it is also more difficult to dislodge the hook from the creature. DCs and skill checks for this can be determined by the DM and might change on a case by case basis. Have fun!
Edit: remember grappling hook is a thrown improvised weapon with a 10ft range increment.
I keep seeing people say that enlarge plus reach plus lunge would work. Perhaps, in a static world. But if given an opportunity to respond to the increased size or a change in tactics, don't you think the demon would respond appropriately by flying 30ft or 40ft?
I do.
Trying to reach it from the ground probably isn't going to be a particularly viable option.
And for what it's worth, this is exactly why whenever I have a flying character they're always a minimum of 30ft off the ground, assuming sufficient overhead space.
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First and foremost: this thread is exactly why you always have a grippli in the party. 20' climb plus the racial traits Jumper and Glider. Now you have something that can take 10 on any climb or jump check, is always considered to have the 10' running start in a jump and can glide to add 5' horizontally to every 10' dropped, all without magic. Otherwise:
- Spells: Animate Rope, Fly, Summon Monster, Obscuring Mist, Enlarge Person, any Transmutation that achieves a Large or larger form, Long Arm for extra 5' reach specifically with arms, Levitate, Jump, Air Walk, or any Transmutation whose form grants wings/flight.
- Equipment: rope and grappling hook, Tanglefoot Bag, net, spiked chain, or any ranged weapon. I know ranged weapons weren't your thing, but as a GM I'd have allowed my players to attempt anchoring a rope into the creature by firing an arrow/bolt into him.
Finally if I were the GM, there's the Fastball Special as perfected by masters Nikolovich and Logan of Westchester County, NY, USA. Essentially your barbarian/bloodrager/fighter/strong guy grabs the guy with the highest CMB who is Medium sized or smaller and chucks him up at the creature. You're making a ranged touch with an Improvised weapon which is oversized, so -8 to the attack to begin with and then your range increments are 10' so a 20' throw would suffer a total of -10 before feats/buffs. Still if you hit then the CMB guy can use the throw as a Charge action to gain a +2 on the maneuver, either Drag or Reposition or a good old fashioned Grapple to attempt to get the villain where you need him to be.
how pfs taught me not to suck, by level
I keep seeing people say that enlarge plus reach plus lunge would work. Perhaps, in a static world. But if given an opportunity to respond to the increased size or a change in tactics, don't you think the demon would respond appropriately by flying 30ft or 40ft?
I do.
Trying to reach it from the ground probably isn't going to be a particularly viable option.
And for what it's worth, this is exactly why whenever I have a flying character they're always a minimum of 30ft off the ground, assuming sufficient overhead space.
It works for the height asked. Also since the critter had a 20' cone breath weapon it has to come within 20' to use it. But yes, depending on reach to defeat a flying creature is generally a losing proposition.
I don't se the point to make the daemon land. I think your should focus in making your chars fly, as that will help when tge target is higher than 20', or incorporeal, por too big to be dragged
Beyond lvl 6 or so, Pathfinder is a superheroes' game. You are expected to fly, just like superheroes do.
swarms
magical darkness
damage reduction
invisible creatures
incorporeal creatures
flight
welcome to the show boys and girls
I don't se the point to make the daemon land. I think your should focus in making your chars fly, as that will help when tge target is higher than 20', or incorporeal, por too big to be dragged
Beyond lvl 6 or so, Pathfinder is a superheroes' game. You are expected to fly, just like superheroes do.
At 6th level potions of Fly are a bit pricey for 1 use items. Fly spell is your highest level spell and usually you have better uses for that slot than a utility spell of limited duration. Expecting 6th level characters to have the resources of 10th level characters is silly.
The GM shouldn't have blanket disallowed maneuvers like that, if your weapon your has trip quality you are supposed be able use it to deliver drag/ reposition maneuvers... Though you still need some combo of jumping, enlarge, reach in order to hit the monster...
I might have tried retreating thru a door that the monster would have to pass thru, allowing hidden/invis pcs to hit them from close range etc...
Simple, Tell him a really sad story to get him down.
Does it not need to make a Concentration check to use that ability? Because generally spell-likes still need Concentration checks.
Enlarge + Lunge + Mancatcher = Hilarity. Grappling automatically brings the creature adjacent to you. Fun, no?
That said, I don't really see why a "grappling hook" tactic is absurd. I mean, we do get that hooks are used in real life to drag things down, right? Not to mention lassos? And considering what else Pathfinder lets you get away with, "slightly implausible weaponry" really shouldn't be a dealbreaker.
Grappling is probably a losing proposition it can Greater Teleport at will.
Tanglefoot is also probably not going to work either. It needs to roll 2+ to make a DC 15 reflex.
The concealment is RAW provided it used Hover (the Monster Feat vs just hovering) within 20ft of ground covered with loose debris. So it probably wanted to remain within 20 of that terrain. Eliminating or moving from the area would probably have been a good idea.
** spoiler omitted **
Was the creature ignoring the concealment? I see nothing in its description that indicates the Leukodaemon would be able to see through it any better than you. Or was the GM giving it concealment from some other source, perhaps in error? This use of Hover (for concealment) and the lingering cloud from Breath of Flies I would say are incompatible as well (the winds would disperse the cloud).
Sounds like the best idea would be to relocate the battle to another area and or take cover to force it down into melee.
yeah, after spiting out the black fly swarm that lasts 1d4+1 rounds, we (pcs) had to roll 20% miss chance on the daemon to hit it. during combat we went with it....after combat,some of the players asked why they had to roll concealment. reading hover and the swarm traits seem to cancel each other out....
Breath of Flies (Su)
Once per minute as a standard action, a leukodaemon can unleash a cloud of corpse-bloated, biting black flies in a 20-foot cone. Those caught in the cone take 8d6 points of slashing damage. A DC 21 Reflex save halves this damage. Those who take any damage are also sickened for 1 minute. In addition, the flies linger for 1d4+1 rounds, congealing into a buzzing 20-foot-square cloud centered on the cone’s original point of origin. Any creature that ends its turn in this cloud must make a DC 21 Reflex save to avoid taking 4d6 points of damage and becoming sickened for 1 minute. This cloud of flies may be dispersed by any area effect that does damage or creates wind of at least strong wind force. All daemons are immune to this effect. The save DCs are Constitution-based.
hover not really strong wind...
does the daemon suffer from concealment miss chance as well?
I would suggest trying Dazing spells. Dazed = no actions = no hover = fall.
Snowball (SR no) works okay with Dazing metamagic.That aside, mancatcher + enlarge potion sounds pretty spiffy. :)
Benefit: A mancatcher is built to capture a creature of a particular size category (such as Small or Medium) and doesn’t work on creatures of the wrong size.
thank god my mancatcher was in my hand when i drank that enlarge person potion lol
ty for post
I would suggest trying Dazing spells. Dazed = no actions = no hover = fall.
Snowball (SR no) works okay with Dazing metamagic.That aside, mancatcher + enlarge potion sounds pretty spiffy. :)
That doesn't work. The fly check to hover is not an action.
Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.
Ergo, you've made it lose its action, but it doesn't fall out of the sky.