To change myself for the group, or...what?


Advice


I've been dealing with an issue for the past...long while, and it's finally coming to a head, where I'm the one who needs to make a decision, since my group, as a whole, won't.

I love playing casters. Always have, always will. My friends love playing martial classes, almost to the exclusion of eliminating all magic from the world, making me the only magic user in the entire campaign.

If I play cleric, they cry for heals, and I give them the "turn-efficiency" speech, but they whine anyways. It's almost like playing a support in league of legends, and your ADC blames you for not blocking incoming damage.

If I play wizard or any comparable class, since all but one campaign has breached level 7, there's not a whole lot I can do combat wise, and I simply don't have enough spell slots for those few runs where we come across magical everything, and it then becomes my soul task of identifying it all.

On the one hand, I want to leave because it's not fun for me when I'm almost never useful, but at the same time, I've known these guys for upwards of eight years now, and they're really great guys outside of the game, they just...don't let me play how I'd like to play...if that makes sense.

What are your guys' thoughts? And I don't need an argument rising out of this. If anything, all I'm asking is for a solution to my magic-user preference in levels 1-7 campaigns while not gimping my late game (because there are some games outside of this main group, that I actually use high level characters).

Edit: Actually, riddle me this. What's a class and build out there, whose structure is steeped in magic, but whose progression from 1-20 is fluid and fun? I'm aiming for a raven themed character who uses flying as a defensive tactic, while spewing spells from above. and no, not the druid, i played 3.5 too much to get sick of druids. This character is lvl 6. no companion books or supplemental books besides ACG, APG, ARG, UC, UM, and ISG.


How about inquisitor? A very solid class that can do a multitude of things, is fun to play, well written and nets you domain access. let's you be a 6th level caster with some martial degree. Or i'd say a skald is in order. Also 6th level caster, helps the martials and fun to play. as for your friends...

Of course, if you're thinking Full caster i'd say oracle is a blast. Mysteries and curses are fun to work with, could go air mystery after your idea, and while it's not recommended you don't even have to have any healing spells considering oracles choose whether have the inflict wounds lines of spells, along with them being spontaneous casters.

If they're the type of people you can about anything with then I think it's time to have the talk. Not the kind of dramatic "I'm leaving" but just get your message across that it kinda sucks being demoted to walking magnifying glass or healbot, that i don't have those spells or "Hey, fighter A? You wanna ride a dragon? I can turn into a dragon! Which would you rather have? Riding a dragon or being healed a few d8's?


The immediate option that springs to mind is to run an Oracle and never put a heal spell on your list. They ask for heals, you tell them sorry, you can't do that. You're a spontaneous caster so you have a fair number of spells per day, but if you run out, you're still 3/4ths BAB with medium armor so you should be fine.

The second option would be to run something like the Witch. When you run out of spells, you fall back on spamming Hexes (or you spam Hexes and fall back on spells, depending on your point of view).

Aaand I had an awesome thought on a raven themed Witch but you need the Familiar Folio. D:


Oracle gets cure spells for free unless you go negative.

Scarab Sages

You're not there to please anyone. If you like playing with them, play what you want. If you don't, then don't. My current group was LIVID when I changed out my channel-focused aasimar cleric for a Gnoll fighter, but he's proven himself invaluable time and time again, because he's way more fun to play, and he's a combat maneuver specialist, so he manages to support and defend the party without actually tossing heal spells. The druid typically handles post-combat heals with a wand.

Long story short, just play whatever you want. Let them deal with it. :P

As for classes, consider the Occultist archetype Arcanist. Decent spells, spontaneous prepared spellcasting, and bonus summons to serve as meat shields/support/damage when you need it. If you like spellcasting, that's the one for you.


I guess the problem is that since you're the only one casting spells, it's up to you to cover all the s$&# job while they steal the light in combat. That's a bit of what a low level wizard gets. And I really understand the entire heal-bot thing, it sucks being that guy.

Alchemist: You can heal, but YOU don't need to spend your rounds doing that, give THEM your infusions. You can fly. You can do damage, with a boom. Mutagen can also get you a piece of the melee cake or improve your archery. I prefer Grenadier archtype above vanilla alchemist. Preservationist gets you summoning.
Though you won't be able to sling spells, you can sling bombs, fire and acid. Havoc and destruction be thy name.

But if you want to be a full caster, go somewhere where you don't need to heal or be the int guy, like a sorcerer.
If the group wants a healer or an identifier, they should do it, not have you do it.


You say "I'm almost never useful". Why is that? Are you no good at building spell carriers? There should never be a time when all your spell slots are used for identifying magic items, because you use a 0-level spell.

I sympathize with being frustrated with your group, but it sounds like you need to worry less about your party's expectations and just play your character. Focus on doing well, not satisfying them. If one if them thinks he can do a better job playing a caster, he is welcome to try.

Grand Lodge

First a Heal-bot actually caters to a dangerous and reckless playstyle by other players in the group. If you want to play a cleric and want to play a smart cleric who tries to prevent incoming damage as opposed to wasting resources and healing every boo-boo that is your choice as the player.

I myself would play a Evangelist Cleric who focuses on either Enchantments or Summoning. Using my Bardic performance to buff everyone with the occasional Bless and Prayer thrown in for the bigger fights. Most my healing would come from a wand between battles and I would STILL go variant channeling and reduce my Channels down to basically another buff and minimal healing.

I would then go ahead and play the smart cleric and when they get reckless and die so be it...they can learn the hard way you're not a heal bot and refuse to cater to them and their reckless play style. Perhaps their next character will not have a 7 INT, WIS, and CHA or they will play like they have a brain in their head. Pathfinder is a tactical game so it is better to play tactfully over playing reckless. Running head first into everything always bring about several deaths after level 7 when the game tends to turn on the challenge button.

Either way they will learn healer is not a Party role in Pathfinder. It is shoe-horning a player into being a waste of space and resources.


Melkiador wrote:
Oracle gets cure spells for free unless you go negative.

Another way of saying that is "Oracles only get Cure spells if you go out of your way to get them".


Never prepare identify first of all, detect magic is just fine, if you fail just wait till the next day. Also if you must prepare identify remember it identifies one item per level not one item.

You really aren't going to find many characters that fly all the time at level 7 it just too valuable a resource to waste as a spell and the always on flying doesn't come online by level 7 or it only rarely does.

If you would like to play a character that won't be asked to identify everything or heal play a negative energy cleric and never ever prepare any healing spells. Ever. Use a wand after combat. Channel energy can be nasty if you invest in it. Take selective channeling and make sure you have enough charisma to exclude all of your allies. Then go ahead and hurt all your enemies in a way that can't be fully protected against.

Have a high wisdom and use dc dependent spells, and take spell focus to help that out further.


Just gonna reiterate the don't mem identify bit. Just keep the skill max ranked and you should be fine. Aditionally, i suggest playing what you want, not a role 'they' say is needed. If it's THAT needed, one who feels that way can change THEIR concept to help shoulder it.


You know what? I suggest a witch myself, paired with the other suggestions presented. Hexes give you potential for the entire day, and you can easily grab everything you want theme-wise. Even better, while cure spells are on your list, you can easily not take any, and just use wands for when the dust settles. Alternatively, there's the Hangover cleric, which is a blast.


This is probably obvious advice you've already tried, but although I wouldn't put much energy into persuading the group that your preferences are as important as the rest of them (even though you're in the majority) I WOULD put effort into having that conversation with the DM.

It sounds like he's got a bunch of mundane-happy players and you. Were I DMing that group, I could see myself falling into the trap of keeping the majority happy and only tossing the magic-loving guy a few scraps here and there (not deliberately, but I could see it happening). I think it's worth telling the DM that you feel like you're missing out on what makes your chosen class great. That doesn't have to be a complaint, but just feedback for them.

Of course, it may be that the DM shares the other players' preferences and they're just not good at providing interesting moments of meaningful screen-time for low level casters. Nonetheless, it's probably worth raising - certainly if you're at the stage of thinking you want to keep playing with the group but might have to leave, since you're not getting what you want out of the game.

Grand Lodge

Nullyrian wrote:


On the one hand, I want to leave because it's not fun for me when I'm almost never useful

Right there tells me you should probally leave. You CAN find a new group, one that will not try to strong arm ya into a role you do not want.

Anyway, on to your edit part:

I see 3 classes you may want to look into that may allow you to do what you want.

First: Inquisitor.
Very strong martial with healing and social skills. Also so useful buff powers, but they are mostly self only.

Second: Magus
Another strong martial who can nova or control (intensified shocking grasp [with a critical strong weapon] or rime frostbite [with a whip for trips and disarms]).

Last: Summoner
You can use your support spells while your pet can actually shame the martials in melee. This does normally go against how I talk about summoners, but if you are feeling left out, pouncing with 4 or 5 attacks AND casting spells at the same time might help. Plus, you will not be stuck with the unchained version as it is not allowed (it seems)


Why don't you try playing a martial and see how you like it first? Since you don't seem to be able to pass 7th level it's not like a massive time investment and maybe one of the other players will see things from your perspective after being the healer.


Nullyrian wrote:
Edit: Actually, riddle me this. What's a class and build out there, whose structure is steeped in magic, but whose progression from 1-20 is fluid and fun? I'm aiming for a raven themed character who uses flying as a defensive tactic, while spewing spells from above. and no, not the druid, i played 3.5 too much to get sick of druids. This character is lvl 6. no companion books or supplemental books besides ACG, APG, ARG, UC, UM, and ISG.

That sounds a bit like the witch. Raven familiar and flight hex. If you can use the familiar folio, you can add extra Raveny goodness with the Synergist archetype.


1) witch

2) if you're running out of spell slots you're not using enough scrolls. a scroll with dozen CL1 spells of identify will cost you 300g( half if you write it yourself), save incredible amounts of hassle, and justify your charging the other players for the spell if they insist on knowing now instead of when detect magic succeeds. a properly filled scroll box is a worthwhile tool for making a full caster a major factor in combat at the lower levels, even those who are not the sole caster in the party.


I'm curious to know how you've been building your casters, Nullyrian. A properly built Wizard is useful from level 1.

The Exchange

Arachnofiend, also depends on GM playstyle, you can screw up a wizard pretty bad by sending the party nothing but constructs, plants, undead, and having many encounters a day, or have enemy archers shoot everyone in robes. An elf wizard taking 10 on spellcraft check at lv 1 can easily hit 20 for identify. Not a problem, identify is a waste of a lv 1 spell. Witch has great all day potential. For clerics, I tend to favor the beatstick route without selective channel these days. Battle oracle, enlarge and a reach weapon is also a fun idea. Oh. Growth domain on cleric, take half orc for fcb for more growth domain uses!


Just a Mort wrote:
Arachnofiend, also depends on GM playstyle, you can screw up a wizard pretty bad by sending the party nothing but constructs, plants, undead, and having many encounters a day, or have enemy archers shoot everyone in robes. An elf wizard taking 10 on spellcraft check at lv 1 can easily hit 20 for identify. Not a problem, identify is a waste of a lv 1 spell. Witch has great all day potential. For clerics, I tend to favor the beatstick route without selective channel these days. Battle oracle, enlarge and a reach weapon is also a fun idea. Oh. Growth domain on cleric, take half orc for fcb for more growth domain uses!

Any encounter in which Grease is not useful is not an encounter you should be having at 1st level.


If your group like Martial adventures and you like spells, i suggest you try out some of the classes that can be a frontliner with spells, magus, inquisitor, bloodrager, bard, ranger and paladin are all Spell casters that can contribute to a long Day of adventuering tell your party to buy wands of CLW and buy some armor if they fall in battle.
But playing a support wizard like a GOD wizard can also work, it is just important that they never realize that they are your Pawns.


@Arachnofiend - My main is a conjuration wizard who's level is 8, and I'm completely comfortable with that, seeing as he's been contributing through, as you mentioned before, greases and other things. I don't really like evocation since wizard spells could be used for so much more. (Like summoning stuff...which is cool). My next is a level 6 reach cleric whose a heck of a lot of fun.

Something that might need clarification is what I deem as useful. If the level one archer ranger walks through 4 orcs in two rounds while I use a crossbow and do nothing, my character is not useful. To those of you who say identify is not something to memorize, the only time I use identify is when we're in town and we have time to relax. Usually, we have a bard in the group who takes care of knowledge checks, so that eliminates half of what a wizard is good for at 1st level. Grease can, at most, be cast four times per day, at level one. Every other situation that I wouldn't be casting grease, I'd be using a crossbow.

In other words, a wizard is not useful at level one because they bring next to no damage to the table, they have a very limited spell list that has sub par spells, and possess the lowest health dice in the game.

@Cavall - I tried. Martial classes are boring to me. I prefer complexity to my game versus just rolling dice and adding numbers. For example, rather than killing someone, why not just put them to sleep with a spell, tie them up, and then get information out of them?

Also, imagine this. We just went against a Graveknight at level 6, and our damage did nothing. I got a lot of fun out of it because the TWF ranger with his total of six attacks in one round (because of magic weapons he has) couldn't do a thing. My druid, at the time, was used buffing people and summoning things, while my pet was used getting the wounded out of the fight so the cleric in the back could channel heal (because that's what he wanted to build around).

No, we did not kill it. It stopped us, tried to make a deal with us because we set it free, and the group essentially said "don't kill us and you can do your thing" as the deal.

@Everyone else - Witch sounds interesting. Thank you for the advice.


Sounds like there are other spellcasters in your groups.
And the examples you give why a wizard at level 1 is no good dosent make sense. I am curious how a archer ranger can do a steady DPR of 36 at level 1.
But generally it sounds like you want to have it all, both spells and to be in the archer and or melee race, and for that my suggestion up thread is still Sound.


The last couple comps for my friends have been as such.

- fighter, fighter, magus, grenade alchemist, air oracle (me) (ended at fourth level)
- ranger, ranger, fighter, cleric (me) (ended at 5th)
- paladin, ranger, magus, fire oracle, summoner (me) (ended at 4th)
- cavalier, fighter, magus, battle oracle, strength focused alchemist, LG reach cleric (ended at 3rd)

The flame oracle texted on her phone and plays only because her bf dms. The grenade alchemist ended up killing his character off because he wasn't doing enough damage, and went charge focused cavalier. All of the maguses use some form of damage spell+elven curve blade.

My apologies on the orc analogy. It was exaggerated. We usually go up against kobolds, goblins, or skeletons. Nonetheless, I hope people understood the point.


yes i am sure most did:) the groups look fine to me. Have you considered taking a turn GMing your self, and pehaps only allowing classes with 6 or 9 levels of Spell casting. That way you can give folks a chance to see how great magic are and you can get the game to levels where magic actually is as great as it can be:)


Nullyrian wrote:

The last couple comps for my friends have been as such.

- fighter, fighter, magus, grenade alchemist, air oracle (me) (ended at fourth level)
- ranger, ranger, fighter, cleric (me) (ended at 5th)
- paladin, ranger, magus, fire oracle, summoner (me) (ended at 4th)
- cavalier, fighter, magus, battle oracle, strength focused alchemist, LG reach cleric (ended at 3rd)

The flame oracle texted on her phone and plays only because her bf dms. The grenade alchemist ended up killing his character off because he wasn't doing enough damage, and went charge focused cavalier. All of the maguses use some form of damage spell+elven curve blade.

My apologies on the orc analogy. It was exaggerated. We usually go up against kobolds, goblins, or skeletons. Nonetheless, I hope people understood the point.

Those Magi make me sad.

Buuut yeah. Witch all-out if you've already done the Oracle.


Arachnofiend wrote:


Any encounter in which Grease is not useful is not an encounter you should be having at 1st level.

Just for fun, small air elemental. I'm sure there are others but it is a short list.

The Exchange

Uh huh...

Tell that to:

Spoiler:

Crypt of everflame
Thornkeep lv 1
Emerald spire lv 1 (you're hosed if you select races without darkvision)
Trial by machine
Black waters

All playable and supposedly suitable for lv 1s. The encounters, uh..not very good for lv 1 wizards. Small air elementals are in summon monster 2 which you get at lv 3, generally small earth elementals are better for dmg. At lv 1, your summoned eagle only lasts a round.


There's an item called the Blackwick Cauldron which allows you to brew multiple potions per day. It is kind of expensive, but if you get the DM to allow it and the other PCs to pitch in it should be attainable. You might even want to talk to the DM on the side about finding one in treasure or at a discount (maybe some crazy old Witch could give it to you as a quest reward)

It sounds like your games tend to die out at rather low levels. Has the DM considered running an Adventure Path? They usually seem to have around 15 levels of content and might make it easier to extend the campaign.

The Exchange

If your group has access to Advanced Class Guide classes, you may want to recommend that one of them try a Skald instead of bugging you. Primarily martial, but has access to the bard utility spells - and a party with this many martials would loooove Inspiring Rage.

I haven't run into the issue you seem to have - running out of useful things to do as a Wizard - but I can at least suggest that an emphasis on area control and debuff spells will make you a team favorite while slowing the rate of spell depletion. Consider ray of enfeeblement, web, slow, chill touch and obsuring mist as well as the aforementioned grease - spells that don't come and go in a single round. Space them out with your about-seven-times-a-day school ability or the use of offensive cantrips (they aren't much, but they're free) and you should be able to keep rolling for quite a while.


Just a Mort wrote:

Uh huh...

Tell that to:

** spoiler omitted **

All playable and supposedly suitable for lv 1s. The encounters, uh..not very good for lv 1 wizards. Small air elementals are in summon monster 2 which you get at lv 3, generally small earth elementals are better for dmg. At lv 1, your summoned eagle only lasts a round.

To be fair, Trial By Machine is an unusually difficult level 1 scenario for everyone.

Spoiler:
Dat hardness, yo.

Can't comment on the others, but hey, there's always Enlarge Person.

Dark Archive

For the Raven thing go Witch with the Synergist archetype so you combine with your raven familiar and look like Howl if that's what you want.


Helcack wrote:
For the Raven thing go Witch with the Synergist archetype so you combine with your raven familiar and look like Howl if that's what you want.

Sadly that's in the Familiar Folio, which he can't use.

It was my first thought too.

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