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This is an optimization guide.
You bet your ass I'm likely going to make a Monk with Paladin VMC, but I'll know the exact reasons why it isn't an optimal build.
Please:
1) Leave comments here on in the .doc itself with feedback, cool builds, etc.
2) Image suggestions appreciated.
ON THE SUBJECT OF EXTRA RAGE POWER / EXTRA ARCANA: There's four VMCs which grant electable features that can also be obtained through feats: Barb (Rage Power), Magus (Arcana), Oracle (Revelation) and Witch (Hex). The latter two explicitly say they don't qualify for the Extra Feature feats. I am working under the assumption this is also true for the Barb and the Magus, as their electable features are stronger than either Hexes or Revelations, considering they work at full-level. Until some official clarification comes through, I'll leave it as is.
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I know it's a little niche, but I love multi-classing and all my characters end up multi-classed even though it tends to be sub-optimal so I use the following combo to make class features work more often. This+this+if no natural ki pool this. It basically allows 1+1/4 CL more uses of a large amount of class features including paladin's smite. So for example Paladin VMC could use that ability a good amount of times per day with a single feat investment, some time, and a little gold. I've mainly used it without the feat, but it allows straight Iroran paladins without the prestige class.
Edit:
Usually channel focused builds need a lot of feats, but look at order of the stars 2nd level ability... You count 1/2 your cavalier level for channel energy. This means you get 1.5x channel progression at 7th, which is worth a feat by itself.
Why did you use the term 'Streets ahead'. Don't perpetuate that!
Bards give competence bonuses with inspire courage for attack and damage. Kind of important to get that part right.
Monks could benefit from the druid vmc. Depends on build.
some thoughts: Rogue VMC allows acces to arcane trickster w/o having to take any rogue- granted you'll have to wait until after level 11 to do it but its full caster level progression if you do it instead of caster level -3 like usual caster would have to
This particular idea has been explored here and has some tricks to make that transition into Arcane Trickster smoother.
For wizard and witch: The cantrip at 11th level is at caster level == character level and at will unlimited use.
As such it is better than a trait none of which are at will unlimited use. Still not worth a feat in almost any case, but better than suggested.
Summoner VMC has the level 11 power wrong: It's not three more uses per day, it's a total of 3 uses per day.
For the magus: Anyone that can use a spell that is on the magus list by any means could spell strike with it. This makes it more attractive for the unchained rogue with his minor and major magic talents as he could use spell strike with those if he picks the right spell. Still not great but worth noting.
Fighters and barbarians stand to find decent use with the alchemist -- the bombs give them something not mundane to deal ranged damage (if not much) and mutagen is a boost that will stack with anything else they have and last quite a while. This is possibly even nicer for the lore warden or a mutagen fighter. Agreed on the level 11 and 17 abilities basically being a waste for them though.
I intend to use the wizard(foresight) VMC with a halfling witch cartomancer for named "Bad luck Chuck" -- it's thematic, gives him a familiar back, and builds well off of what you already have.
The conjuration(teleportation) VMC is nice for a B&E or shadowdancer sort of rogue/character as well, thematic and brings it online faster.
Rogue can be nice for monks trading away Evasion, or any light armor sort of combatant.
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Finally:
I'll be honest -- I want to play a Witch Doctor Shaman with Life spirit and VMC Cleric(healing). Three (that's right three) channel energy pools. It's stupid and I love it.
Cool -- was waiting for this.
Any way to make the links in this guide clickable?
@ the druid -- You have wild shape at level 15 so you qualify for natural spell meaning you can wild shape and cast still.
Good work.
But i dont undestand what this part of the sorcerer VMC:"Non-Sorcerers going into Draconic Disciple Prestige Class + Draconic Bloodline. The goal here is triggering the extra ability bonuses that the PrC grants if you already have the Bloodline!"
I will ad more questions if i see stuff as i read the guide.
thanks for explaining that:)
@ the druid -- You have wild shape at level 15 so you qualify for natural spell meaning you can wild shape and cast still.
I honestly can't see how this would be optimal for any build though, save for a Bard (as noted), since the Bard is the only one who can't access to flying otherwise. Thundercaller benefits well from it too since they don't need Natural Spell to toss some lightning bolts around.
Finally:
I'll be honest -- I want to play a Witch Doctor Shaman with Life spirit and VMC Cleric(healing). Three (that's right three) channel energy pools. It's stupid and I love it.
Believer's Boon with Swamp Domain makes it four.
Rest of your comments are well noted!
Usually channel focused builds need a lot of feats, but look at order of the stars 2nd level ability... You count 1/2 your cavalier level for channel energy. This means you get 1.5x channel progression at 7th, which is worth a feat by itself.
Sadly, I doubt it. This is attempting to add your cleric levels twice to the same thing. This usually doesn't work in the game (as is trying to add Wisdom twice to AC with Monk and Sacred Fist levels.)
great guide
some thoughts: Rogue VMC allows acces to arcane trickster w/o having to take any rogue- granted you'll have to wait until after level 11 to do it but its full caster level progression if you do it instead of caster level -3 like usual caster would have to
IMO virtually every melee martial that can spare the feats for Barbarian VMC should- even makes a vanilla fighter pretty good- mutagen fighter gets even more nuts w/ rage and alchemy bonuses
I know you said you were assuming unchained versions but look at Zen Archer monk w/ fighter VMC- he has the extra feats to do it- armor training is wasted but gloves of dueling might make it worth it
magus might be pretty good for wizard/witches- scroll and wand mastery mean using your INT bonus for DC instead of base- now you'll really never run out spells and blasty wands/scrolls don't lose their effectiveness at higher player levels. Will Spell Blending allow non-wizard casters to gain access to the wizard/sorceror spell list?
monks/brawlers w/ Witch VMC can now use the Hex Striker feat w/o having to dip a level for Witch- now every hit could be a debuff w/ evil eye (or is suppose misfortune, slumber or later on agony)- i know the DC will suck but w/ rapid strike going they'll have to roll a 1 sometime for evil eye at least
I'm also curious what other classes could do w/ prehensile hair- maybe a bad touch cleric w/ high INT? could a magus use it for spellstrike?
1. I need to mention the Arcane Trickster, passed my mind. Rage Prophet too.
2. Barb VMC is very good but some martials (like Rangers, Swashbucklers or Slayers) will want to use skills in battle like Sleight of Hand, Bluff, Knowledge skills..
3. Honestly think Zen Archer can get a lot from the Inquisitor VMC actually.
great guide
some thoughts: Rogue VMC allows acces to arcane trickster w/o having to take any rogue- granted you'll have to wait until after level 11 to do it but its full caster level progression if you do it instead of caster level -3 like usual caster would have to
IMO virtually every melee martial that can spare the feats for Barbarian VMC should- even makes a vanilla fighter pretty good- mutagen fighter gets even more nuts w/ rage and alchemy bonuses
I know you said you were assuming unchained versions but look at Zen Archer monk w/ fighter VMC- he has the extra feats to do it- armor training is wasted but gloves of dueling might make it worth it
magus might be pretty good for wizard/witches- scroll and wand mastery mean using your INT bonus for DC instead of base- now you'll really never run out spells and blasty wands/scrolls don't lose their effectiveness at higher player levels. Will Spell Blending allow non-wizard casters to gain access to the wizard/sorceror spell list?
monks/brawlers w/ Witch VMC can now use the Hex Striker feat w/o having to dip a level for Witch- now every hit could be a debuff w/ evil eye (or is suppose misfortune, slumber or later on agony)- i know the DC will suck but w/ rapid strike going they'll have to roll a 1 sometime for evil eye at least
I'm also curious what other classes could do w/ prehensile hair- maybe a bad touch cleric w/ high INT? could a magus use it for spellstrike?
1. I need to mention the Arcane Trickster, passed my mind. Rage Prophet too.
2. Barb VMC is very good but some martials (like Rangers, Swashbucklers or Slayers) will want to use skills in battle like Sleight of Hand, Bluff, Knowledge skills..
3. Honestly think Zen Archer can get a lot from the Inquisitor VMC actually.
There's some munchkiny goodness in that a Bard or Skald taking VMC Sorcerer can now take Dragon Disciple quickly and easily, while getting all the fun little nonsense of a full Sorcerer Bloodline.
On top of that, the Barbarian with an Oracle VMC is arguably heinously more useful than a Rage Prophet (which you sorta noted); likewise, a Bloodrager with VMC Oracle is an arcane version of the class, while an Oracle with VMC Barbarian is basically a mini-Rage Prophet; if you're game is going to lv20, then you can take Oracle for 10 levels and then Rage Prophet for 10 because you'll gain Moment of Clarity at the same time you take your first level of Rage Prophet.
There's also the fact that an Exemplar Brawler, Sensei Monk, straight Bard, or Evangelist Cleric with VMC Cavalier all are now single-class entries into Battle Herald: Sensei, Evangelist, and Bard at lv7, Exemplar at lv6
On the other end of things, a Cavalier can enter Battle Herald himself at either lv7 or lv8, depending on how your DM interprets it: because of how VMC is tied more to your Character Level than your Class Levels, at Character Level 7, you will gain Inspire Courage; following the logic that it's legal to take a level in a Prestige Class simultaneously while gaining a requisite Feat for that Class, the same should hold true for VMC-gained abilities, meaning that you can take Cavalier for 6 levels and then at lv7 take Battle Herald because you simultaneously gain Inspire Courage.
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@ the druid -- You have wild shape at level 15 so you qualify for natural spell meaning you can wild shape and cast still.I honestly can't see how this would be optimal for any build though, save for a Bard (as noted), since the Bard is the only one who can't access to flying otherwise. Thundercaller benefits well from it too since they don't need Natural Spell to toss some lightning bolts around.
2 arcane discoveries for you: Multimorph and Idealize. Add one feat to that: Shaping Focus.
Realize that with natural spell and those two abilities you can switch your form multiple times and gain a +4 size bonus to your Dex while having size modifiers to your AC at all times. You are getting the effects of overland flight plus a Dex boost, plus size bonuses to your AC at all times (22 hours a day).
Also consider Shaping focus (now you wild shape like a 10th level druid, 8th level if you grab it as soon as possible some how at level 15) and possibly planar wild shape to gain resistances.
With just multimorph, idealize and shaping focus you can assume beast form 3, Plant shape 2 and elemental body 4.
For an air elemental that means a +6 size bonus to strength, and a +8 size bonus to Dex, 120 ft (perfect) flight and You are also immune to bleed damage, critical hits, and sneak attacks while in elemental form and gain DR 5/—.
There is a lot of potential for wild shape for a wizard.
There is also the thematic option of taking wild shape for an animal totem barbarian for an "lycanthrope" sort of character.
This is in addition to the full form animal companion which is still just as useful for you (also has lots of benefits available from the share spell since your spells don't normally affect animals).
Which should be green in my opinion.
Is the Summoner VMC as cray-cray for a Rogue as it seems?
Rogues can or can't get along with Feats, depending on how you decide to build it, but the ability to gain Summon Monster like a Summoner, and getting a mini-Eidolon means that you will generally ALWAYS have a buddy to help you flank.
It's not as good as Leadership in some regards, but your Eidolon nor Summoned Monsters can't be perma-killed, either.
Is the Summoner VMC as cray-cray for a Rogue as it seems?
Rogues can or can't get along with Feats, depending on how you decide to build it, but the ability to gain Summon Monster like a Summoner, and getting a mini-Eidolon means that you will generally ALWAYS have a buddy to help you flank.
It's not as good as Leadership in some regards, but your Eidolon nor Summoned Monsters can't be perma-killed, either.
I don't think it's as good as other options:
You can only summon the eidolon once a day when you first get the ability (at late level), it doesn't last as long, doing so eats your summon monster ability (which is at a slower progression too), and is less powerful with half the points of being less powerful too.
I mean it's like being crippled in three different ways. I would rather take some of the other choices for a rogue.
And, am I missing something here, or is a Brawler Fighter / Monk VMC straight-up more powerful when it comes to combat vs the Brawler, and even the Monk?
A lv4 Brawler-Fighter/Monk VMC, for example, has Improved Unarmed Strike, and if he takes Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization, he attacks twice at +3/+3 dealing 1d6+7, avg. 10.5 damage per hit. By comparison, a Brawler with Weapon Focus and using Flexibility to gain Weapon Specialization attacks twice at +3/+3 dealing 1d8+2, avg 6.5 damage per hit.
The Brawler eventually gains more attacks by getting ITWF and GTWF for free, but not until 8th and 15th level respectively; on the other hand, the Brawler-Fighter/Monk VMC just keeps getting bonuses to hit and damage at 7th, and then 11th level, on top of any Weapon Focus tree feats, meaning it's always going to be significantly more-accurate than a Brawler, and hit a lot harder, with almost-as-many attacks.
Brawler Fighter / Monk VMC
Race Two-Weapon Fighting
CL1 Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
CL2 Power Attack
CL3 Improved Unarmed Strike - Two-Weapon Unarmed Power Attack +2/2 (1d6+5)
CL4 Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike) - Two-Weapon Unarmed Power Attack +3/+3 (1d6+7)
CL5 ??? - Two-Weapon Unarmed Power Attack +4/+4 (1d6+7)
CL6 ??? - Two-Weapon Unarmed Power Attack +5/+5/+0 (1d8+7)
CL7 Evasion - Two-Weapon Unarmed Power Attack +7/+7/+2 (1d8+8)
CL8 Greater Weapon Focus - Two-Weapon Unarmed Power Attack +9/+9/+4 (1d8+8)
CL9 ??? - Two-Weapon Unarmed Power Attack +10/+10/+5 (1d8+8)
CL10 ??? - Two-Weapon Unarmed Power Attack +11/+11/+6 (1d10+8)
CL11 Ki Pool - Two-Weapon Unarmed Power Attack +13/+13/+8/+3 (1d10+9)
He has unarmed strike feat but he doesn't have the ability of the monk to do full damage with his off hand so he's only getting 1/2 str bonus on that hand.
His AC is much lower too.
When you mention Cleric you also mention "High Cha Crossbow Rangers" who use Channel Smite? Don't mean to burst your bubble mate but Channel Smite is melee only.
bubble burst
When you mention Cleric you also mention "High Cha Crossbow Rangers" who use Channel Smite? Don't mean to burst your bubble mate but Channel Smite is melee only.
Somewhat off-topic, but as far as I can tell, regardless of Pathfinder Unchained, Channel Smite is just bad, and nobody in their right mind (barring some really weird corner case) would take it except as a feat tax for something that is actually useful.
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On top of that, the Barbarian with an Oracle VMC is arguably heinously more useful than a Rage Prophet (which you sorta noted); likewise, a Bloodrager with VMC Oracle is an arcane version of the class, while an Oracle with VMC Barbarian is basically a mini-Rage Prophet; if you're game is going to lv20, then you can take Oracle for 10 levels and then Rage Prophet for 10 because you'll gain Moment of Clarity at the same time you take your first level of Rage Prophet.
{. . .}
I may steal one of these Oracle-based ideas with the Wrecker Curse and put it on an Annis Changeling (Dual-Cursed with a reskinned Wasting to portray partial metamorphosis and get Fortune and Misfortune) to build my Wreck-It-Rafaela character concept. (Iron Gods: Robot Problem? Monster Solution! Still would like a way to become permanently Large without needing a Permanent Enlarge Person.)
There's some munchkiny goodness in that a Bard or Skald taking VMC Sorcerer can now take Dragon Disciple quickly and easily, while getting all the fun little nonsense of a full Sorcerer...
Both you and this guide mentions that somebody with the Sorcerer VMC going into Dragon Disciple would potentially benefit from getting full Draconic progression. Though, I'm struggling to wrap my head around how it would actually progress, since the VMC follows character level.
Could someone illustrate what it would look like? Currently I'm debating whether the VMC would just ignore "Blood of Dragons" completely, or if it would add the DD levels to the VMC, or..
I made another thread concerning these, but VMCs open the door to some other very odd, very fun progressions into Prestige Classes:
Wild Stalker Ranger 5 + Oracle VMC to Rage Prophet at lv6
Wild Stalker Ranger gets Rage at lv4 and then Rage Powers at lv5. Oracle VMC obviously grants you the requisite Curse, and you gain Mysteries automatically as you level.
Take Moment of Clarity and voila - you meet all the prerequisites for entering Rage Prophet with a single class, including the Divine Spellcasting.
Wizard/Witch 5 + Oracle VMC to Eldritch Knight lv6
You take Battle Mystery and choose Skill at Arms at lv3, then just wait 2 levels until you can cast 3rd level spells)
Bonded Witch (Half-Elf Racial Archetype) gives you a Weapon Bonded Object.
Spellslinger gives you a magic gun, proficiency with it, and Gunsmithing at lv1. A MAGIC GUN, PEOPLE.
The worst-case scenario, then, is that the Eldritch Knight slows your spell progression down to that of a Sorcerer's; meanwhile, your 1/2 BAB fairly-quickly turns into a 3/4 BAB, you gain an additional Feat at Knight 1 and Knight 5, you count as a Fighter to taking Feats, AND you still have access to 9th-Level Arcane spell progression.
Suddenly Eldritch Knight seems significantly less sucktacular.
^Problem with Wild Stalker Ranger VMC Oracle into Rage Prophet is that when you exchange class feature progression for prestige class features, one of the things you are exchanging is full-speed spellcasting progression -- Ranger spellcasting progression is already slow and limited, and Rage Prophet slows it down even more, while also bringing you down from full BAB, as opposed to progressing from the traditional Barbarian 2 + Oracle 4, from which you are at least coming down from 9/9 spellcasting (which even at the reduced rate will still outstrip Ranger spellcasting) and not losing any BAB. Rage Prophet also has the design flaw that it doesn't progress rounds of Rage per day, although at least VMC Barbarian mitigates this.
This is also a problem to a lesser extent for a Magus or Bard going into Dragon Disciple.
Thinking about it more, even for Oracle VMC Barbarian, I wonder if it might be better to just stick with Oracle VMC Barbarian all the way up instead of going into Rage Prophet VMC Barbarian (admittedly, Rage Prophet offers some decent class features of its own, but you get them rather late this way).
Agreed on Eldritch Knight, though (although this isn't enough to make it really great after the SLA FAQ nerfsledgehammer). It would also work for Sorcerers going into Eldritch Knight, although entry is 1 level later, so again not great. It would even make Orc (could be Half-Orc but not as good) Scarred Witch Doctor into Eldritch Knight (which was not affected by the SLA FAQ nerf and still had potential to be good) somewhat better by removing the martial dip requirement (but only if you are not feat-starved).
^Problem with Wild Stalker Ranger VMC Oracle into Rage Prophet is that when you exchange class feature progression for prestige class features, one of the things you are exchanging is full-speed spellcasting progression -- Ranger spellcasting progression is already slow and limited, and Rage Prophet slows it down even more, while also bringing you down from full BAB, as opposed to progressing from the traditional Barbarian 2 + Oracle 4, from which you are at least coming down from 9/9 spellcasting (which even at the reduced rate will still outstrip Ranger spellcasting) and not losing any BAB. Rage Prophet also has the design flaw that it doesn't progress rounds of Rage per day, although at least VMC Barbarian mitigates this.
This is also a problem to a lesser extent for a Magus or Bard going into Dragon Disciple.
Thinking about it more, even for Oracle VMC Barbarian, I wonder if it might be better to just stick with Oracle VMC Barbarian all the way up instead of going into Rage Prophet VMC Barbarian (admittedly, Rage Prophet offers some decent class features of its own, but you get them rather late this way).
The progression is slowed on an already-slow class, BUT it's no worse than typical multiclassing, AND it just puts a bit more emphasis back onto the combat aspect of the build.
Barbarian 5 / Oracle 1 is a poor way to go Rage Prophet due to its general non-emphasis on the Barbarian aspects of the class.
On the other hand Oracle 4 / Barbarian 2 plays more in-line with the printed intent of the class, but that basically means that your Barbarian aspects are stunted.
Wild Stalker 5 gives you a bit more of a middle-ground - it gives you useful spells, it works well with the intent of the Rage Prophet class, and it gives you the highest Base Attack Bonus; you basically end up as a jack-of-all trades.
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Then again, this is mostly a "I want to play a Rage Prophet" mindset; in actuality, going Rage Prophet isn't a terribly wise idea - the class is seemingly a divine counterpart to the Dragon Disciple, but in practice falls short in a lot of ways, the most glaring of which being that you basically give up Greater Rage entirely (DD's ability bonuses actually end up giving you an effect that's BETTER than Greater Rage, so the loss of official Greater Rage becomes moot in the long run).
If someone's seriously going for power, I'd always say go Barbarian/Oracle VMC for a melee combatant that ragecycles, Bloodrager/Oracle VMC for a pure Ragemage with a with ragecycling and a splash of Divine flavor, or Oracle/Barbarian VMC for a better Rage Prophet than the actual Rage Prophet.
I'd suggest Wild Stalker/Oracle VMC/Rage Prophet mainly to get a little from column A and a little from Column B while accessing Rage Prophet proper faster than any other way.
{. . .}
If someone's seriously going for power, I'd always say go Barbarian/Oracle VMC for a melee combatant that ragecycles, Bloodrager/Oracle VMC for a pure Ragemage with a with ragecycling and a splash of Divine flavor, or Oracle/Barbarian VMC for a better Rage Prophet than the actual Rage Prophet.
{. . .}
Unfortunately for the first 2 options, Pathfinder Unchained nerfed Rage Cycling. The last option sounds like the one I want to steal, though.
{. . .}
If someone's seriously going for power, I'd always say go Barbarian/Oracle VMC for a melee combatant that ragecycles, Bloodrager/Oracle VMC for a pure Ragemage with a with ragecycling and a splash of Divine flavor, or Oracle/Barbarian VMC for a better Rage Prophet than the actual Rage Prophet.
{. . .}Unfortunately for the first 2 options, Pathfinder Unchained nerfed Rage Cycling. The last option sounds like the one I want to steal, though.
I don't get why everyone keeps saying that - how did Unchained nerf Rage Cycling?
You can still use non-Unchained Barbarian in PFS, as well as the Bloodrager and every other thing that Rages.
^As I read Unchained Barbarian, you don't get some of the benefits if you enter Rage too soon after ending it, even if not Fatigued.
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These temporary hit points are lost first when a character takes damage, disappear when the rage ends, and are not replenished if the barbarian enters a rage again within 1 minute of her previous rage. {. . .} If she enters a rage again within 1 minute of ending a rage, she doesn't gain any temporary hit points from her rage. {. . .}
The first part of the quote is from the Rage class feature; the second part of the quote is from the Tireless Rage class feature.
Extra Hit Points are actually a pretty important feature of Rage.
^I don't know about PFS (not in it), but outside of PFS, do many tables allow you to use some Pathfinder Unchained stuff without having to use Barbarian Unchained? (I know I have seen a few posted, but no idea if this approaches a majority.)
^I don't know about PFS (not in it), but outside of PFS, do many tables allow you to use some Pathfinder Unchained stuff without having to use Barbarian Unchained? (I know I have seen a few posted, but no idea if this approaches a majority.)
Most DMs will likely only force players to use the Rogue (for the players' own good) and the Summoner (for the DM's own good).
Unchained Monk and Unchained Barbarian will likely be optional.
And, frankly, I doubt many players will actually use the Unchained Barbarian once they try it out.
On top of creating a menagerie of rules-entangling BS when used with anything NOT printed in PFU, the Unchained Barbarian is just crap compared to the original Barbarian.
The lack of bonus to Str and bonus only to Melee and Thrown weapons means that the Unchained Barbarian is garbage for Archery (whereas the original Barbarian was a fantastic archer, honestly) it's push/pull/lift values are shot.
Raging Vitality still exists and creates a snarl-y problem because it STILL pumps Constitution, and many players will want to take that anyway.
Bloodrager, Clerics with the Rage Domain, etc., ALL still use the old form of Rage, so mixing and mashing the two together create a whole new level of headache BS for DMS.
Just imagine a lv3 character: Alchemist 1, Unchained Barbarian 1, Bloodrager 1. That SOB is Unchained Raging, Bloodraging, and Mutagen'ing for a +6 Attack and Damage per hit AT LEVEL 3!!!
Oh, and let's not forget the fact that simply taking Extra Rage hits both Bloodrage AND Unchained Rage, so you get 6 extra rounds of each for the price of 1 Feat.
At last with Bloodrage and normal Rage, the worst you could see would be +4 (Alchemical and Morale) because the two Morale Bonuses from a simultaneously Blood- and normal Rage would be transparent to one another.
Then, finally, there's the whole "1 minute between Rages" crap; ragecycling is an odd thing, but it's not a bad thing - a LOT of players will walk away from the Unchained Barbarian simply for that.
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I love Barbarian, and I absolutely hate the Unchained Barbarian; it's an okay simplified version for teaching new players the game, but it's just pathetic and a migraine-inducing rules nightmare when it's mixed with anything besides itself.
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That is a very useful guide, and it is very nicely done.
I'd like to point out another beneficiary of the fighter VMC: the Myrmidarch Magus. Myrmidarchs already get three steps of Weapon Training and two steps of Armor Training. We have a FAQ that tells us these stack with those gained from fighter levels.
So with the VMC, a Myrmidarch will ultimately have Weapon Training with five weapon groups, with bonuses to hit and damage of up to +5. Gloves of Dueling will bring that up to +7!
Four steps of Armor Training eventually gives you a -4 to any ACP and a +4 to the maximum DEX bonus allowed. It also gets them the ability to move at normal speed in heavy armor well before they even get heavy armor proficiency.
A recent FAQ made rage a pseudo buff type just like polymorph, only one applies:
Anger management: If I am in a rage, or an Unchained rage, or a bloodrage, or some similar form of rage, can I stack up as many benefits as possible?
No. When you either activate or are affected by a new form of rage (such as a barbarian’s rage, a skald’s raging song, a bloodrager’s bloodrage, and the rage spell), you can choose whether to keep your current rage or to accept the new rage instead, much like a creature affected by multiple polymorph effects. If you are in the throes of a rage that you could not automatically end on your own, such as a wild rager’s wild rage, you may not choose to replace it with a new rage effect. The exception to this rule is the skald’s master skald ability, which explicitly allows the skald’s raging song to stack with other rage effects.
Also, while Unchained rage is weaker, the rage powers themselves are stronger and moved away from the 1/rage paradigm that made rage cycling attractive.
Oh; weird. I mean, it makes sense, but while the Skald DOES call this out in its Raging Song feature, other effects don't. Still good to know.
However, it doesn't change the fact that Mutagen is just like Rage, especially the later forms where you can pump 2 or more abilities simultaneously, in that it alters your stats and thus can easily require a "second character sheet". It's especially got the fun little nonsense of also potentially suffering from "Sudden Alchemist Death Syndrome" - although because it lasts for 10 MINUTES PER LEVEL, that is extremely unlikely to ever happen, admittedly.
I think I wouldn't have hated the Unchained Barbarian so much if it made the effects last for a minute-long interval, for a number of times per day equal to 4+Con+(2/level), with the Barbarian being Fatigued for 2 minutes afterwards. I'd still hate it for not having the stat boosts and thus creating rules interaction headaches, but I'd hate it less if the duration was also upped significantly to compensate.
You'd STILL have people Ragecycling, sure, but there would be less incentive if Raging were set number of uses per day, and you'd be potentially wasting minutes at a time of it.
This is not the thread for whether the Unchained Barbarian is awesome or not.
I think rage cycling is stupid (as a DM) though so I use it. It makes no sense in terms of flavor and it seems like it exploits the mechanics.
Make another thread to discuss that?
That is a very useful guide, and it is very nicely done.
I'd like to point out another beneficiary of the fighter VMC: the Myrmidarch Magus. Myrmidarchs already get three steps of Weapon Training and two steps of Armor Training. We have a FAQ that tells us these stack with those gained from fighter levels.
So with the VMC, a Myrmidarch will ultimately have Weapon Training with five weapon groups, with bonuses to hit and damage of up to +5. Gloves of Dueling will bring that up to +7!
Four steps of Armor Training eventually gives you a -4 to any ACP and a +4 to the maximum DEX bonus allowed. It also gets them the ability to move at normal speed in heavy armor well before they even get heavy armor proficiency.
Myrmidarch is starved for feats as a ranged build though, I don't think they have a ton of room to fit it in.
PS: I added the Wild Stalker Rage Prophet thing since it sounds cool
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Frankly the Myrmidarch is better suited to melee than ranged. The Ranged Spellstrikes are niche-use abilities at best, but Spell Combat is still their bread and butter.
I am in complete agreement with you. So many people try to make Myrmidarchs into Arcane Archers, but that is really difficult to pull off. In my opinion, the best build for a Myrmidarch is a switch-hitter along the lines of Treantmonk's switch-hitting Ranger. You use ranged attacks before melee begins and then you wade into the melee yourself. That way you don't need to invest in most of the standard ranged feats like point-blank shot or precise shot.
It works so well with Myrmidarchs because, with careful planning, both their melee and ranged attacks can benefit from the same class abilities, feats, traits, and spell choices. Weapon Training is a prime example of that. You select a melee weapon group for Weapon Training 1, and a ranged weapon group for Weapon Training 2. Each subsequent increase in the ability benefits both your melee and ranged attacks.
If you were going to forgo Spellstrike investment anyway, that's honestly not a bad setup.
I'm not sure what you mean by forgoing Spellstrike investment. My Myrmidarch uses the standard Magical Lineage-Intensified Spell-Shocking Grasp combo quite a lot for melee. He simply adds Reach Spell to that and he has a perfect combo for Ranged Spellstrike. So it only costs one feat to apply the melee tactic to his ranged attacks.
Thanks to the Broad Study Arcana, you could use any class’ spells with Spellstrike! Otherwise, you can use the Spell Blending Arcana to gain a Magus spell to your spells known to use with Spellstrike. Bad Touch Clerics will probably want to use Broad Study; Skalds or Hunters might want Spell Blending.
Secret Wizard, I wonder if you could walk me through your reasoning on this section.
Spell Blending
You say that Spell Blending will let you add a Magus spell to another spell list, but I don't see that at all. Spell Blending specifically lets a Magus add Wizard/Sorcerer spells to the Magus spell list. It does not allow a Magus to add a Magus spell to some other spell list. For example, a character who was Hunter 5/Magus 5 could use Spell Blending to add Mage Armor to his Magus spell list but it would not allow him to add Shocking Grasp to his Hunter spell list. Why do you see this working with VMC?
(There is the additional problem that you must pick a spell that is of a level that you can cast as a Magus, and if you are using VMC then you can't even cast 0 level spells as a Magus.)
Spell Blending (Ex): When a magus selects this arcana, he must select one spell from the wizard spell list that is of a magus spell level he can cast. He adds this spell to his spellbook and list of magus spells known as a magus spell of its wizard spell level. He can instead select two spells to add in this way, but both must be at least one level lower than the highest-level magus spell he can cast. A magus can select this magus arcana more than once.
Broad Study
To me, this potentially presents an interesting rules conflict. Ordinarily Broad Study lets you use Spellstrike with any touch spells from the class you have selected, regardless of whether that spell is on the Magus spell list. So a witch 5/Magus 6 could select Broad Study and then use Spellstrike to deliver Touch of Fatigue from the Witch cantrip list.
But the version of Spellstrike that is granted by VMC, is specifically limited to working with spells that are on the Magus list. So which rule applies if you are a Witch with the Magus VMC? Could the Witch use Touch of Fatigue with this restricted form of Spellstrike, even though that spell is not on the Magus spell list?
Broad Study (Ex): The magus selects another one of his spellcasting classes. The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list of that class. This does not allow him to cast arcane spells from that class's spell list without suffering the normal chances of arcane spell failure, unless the spell lacks somatic components. The magus must be at least 6th level and must possess levels in at least one other spellcasting class before selecting this arcana.
Hrm. Somehow I'd gotten it into my head that Ranged Spellstrike replaced Spellstrike. But no, I'm thinking of the Card Caster.
Yes, Card Caster changes and replaces regular Spellstrike. I've never been interested in that archetype. Probably because I'm old enough that, to me, the X-Men are Cyclops, Iceman, Beast, Angel, and Marvel Girl. Gambit came too late to really grab my imagination.
ill walk you through my logic
i wrote this all in a single night with no sleep????????
also ill add something about the myrmidarch i guess?