Legends of Tomorrow


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Aaaand not happy with much of tonight's show. Criminally stupid underuse of Supergirl, with the lame excuse that Ollie needs to pretend really hard that people like her don't exist.

So, 30 seconds after Ollie tells you all the spaceships are a distraction, you engage everyone but Barry fighting the Not At All A Distraction alien soldiers, then eventually peel off Supergirl to assist Barry in neutralizing the Not At All A Distraction alien soldiers instead of deploying her to lift the metabomb into orbit and hurl it into space. You know, exactly like she did with the much more massive Fort Rozz on her own Earth.

Yeah, it was nice to finally see Firestorm transmuting something, but there was just no good reason for all that countdown drama. If anything looked like a job for Supergirl, it was removing the metabomb. She wasn't needed in a hand-to-hand melee with the Dominators, and if Barry needed a speedy backup, this is something Wally could have done. No combat, no complex speed tricks, just move fast, tag the aliens and move on.

Liberty's Edge

I thought the last episode of the crossover was the best of the set.

Yes, they were still suffering from 'here is a character interaction problem... and fifteen minutes later it has been resolved because that is all the time we have' AND the 'how do we keep Supergirl from solving EVERYTHING' issue.

However, lots of interaction and chances for each of the characters to contribute. They acknowledged the Kara Danvers & Felicity similarity which I'd been hoping to see. TONS of inside references. Introduced the set up for future crossovers AND everyone playing on a bigger stage with the federal government getting involved.

Or forget all that... just the look Benoist's face after

Spoiler:
Rory: "Skirt. Call me."

That was funny.


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CB,

I liked the Easter Egg of Routh's saying "She looks almost like my cousin!". That was awesome for me. I will agree the episode was great. But I had trouble figuring out why Cisco felt like the invasion was HIS fault when it reality it probably wouldn't have mattered. Maybe. I dunno.

Damon,

Maybe the reason they didn't have Kara just throw it back at the Dominators was the fact they weren't sure how far the explosion would reach. I mean it was a BOMB being dropped from a substantive height. So Transmutation (which I'm FINALLY glad they got Firestorm to do instead of just toss fire) made it feel like "This is a moment!" for me.

As for Wally, I think Barry would have nixed that idea right away since it's clear NO ONE on Team Flash wants Kid Flash around just yet.

Liberty's Edge

Thomas Seitz wrote:
But I had trouble figuring out why Cisco felt like the invasion was HIS fault when it reality it probably wouldn't have mattered. Maybe. I dunno.

I think the idea was that the alien Cisco insisted they save turned out to be the leader who decided to launch the current invasion... but yeah, it was mostly an excuse for Cisco to have a 'revelation' on the difference between proximal and distal causation so that he could 'forgive' Barry.

Quote:
As for Wally, I think Barry would have nixed that idea right away since it's clear NO ONE on Team Flash wants Kid Flash around just yet.

Not to mention, he was still injured from Supergirl having flattened him.


I think things with Cisco might have slightly shifted the reasons for the invasion and the magnitude of it.

Initially it was "WTF? Did time just change...looks like it came from Earth. Well that's a big pile of No. Send some guys and find out who and why and make it never happen again"

Post-Cisco time travel; "WTF? Did time just change...looks like it came from Earth. Oh THAT place, they aren't all bad but there are some really nasty SOBs there. Can't let that kind of power fall into the hands of guys like the one who tortured me. Mobilize a full fleet we're stopping this before it gets too far"


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Thomas Seitz wrote:
As for Wally, I think Barry would have nixed that idea right away since it's clear NO ONE on Team Flash wants Kid Flash around just yet.

He likely would have, but Team Flash needs to get over it. Barry told Jessie she wasn't ready, then hauled her along in the same episode to help him deal with a sizeable problem.

Wally does have some impluse (heh) control issues, and is not ready for prime time, but the fix for that is to train him and let him do a few things so he can get ready. Having the entire team* shut him down every time he tries to contribute is just going to be increasingly frustrating. Sooner rather than later he's bound to feel like "Screw it, I'll never be ready in your eyes until I prove myself, so here I go." Anyone who has spent more than 72 hours with Wally will know this. They're all being willfully stupid.

So ease him into the job by letting him tags some aliens and go home. What, Supergirl hit him so hard - and only him - that his superspeed metabolism hasn't healed him by now?

*Yes, the entire team. Do not talk to me about H.R. Props to Tom Cavanagh for his acting range, but that character is a clown and adds nothing to the team or the show.

Apropos of that: "There was a funny scene between Speedy and HR where she says, 'So what are you doing here? What value do you bring?' He’s like, 'Well I’m writing a book,' and she’s like, 'Oh that’ll be a big help' and walks away," said Guggenheim of the cut scene.


And still though, the last we saw wally he was being dragged around after being clobbered. So it's probably best to assume that he wasn't physically ABLE to help out at this time.

That's the simplest reason and fits with what we've seen so far. There's only so much 'logic' that we can try to force on these shows. Heck, the idea that Flash tracked down Supergirl but not Jay Garrick is a little illogical.

I'll admit I was a bit bummed that they sidelined her for the first half of the episode, but I have to say I loved the second half. Firestorm transmuting things again... He DID do it at least once last season... but I wish they used it at LEAST often enough that the audience doesn't forget he can do it... And the party afterwards. I would watch a whole episode of them having a party like that! Mick hitting on Supergirl, Ray making a Superman Returns joke... Barry and Kara getting Ollie in a group hug...

Just amazing. I can't remember the last time I laughed so much during one of these episodes :D


Phantom,

It was a fun and funny episode even if it was uneven in places. Also I understand why you might want Jay in there, but at the time it was more about doing things in force than merely by speed. Let's face it, Felicity had it right first: "This is a job for Supergirl."

Damon,

Two things: I prefer the scene that was cut between Sara and Kara about grabbing a drink and her telling her about Alex.

Secondly I get what you're saying but that still doesn't mean people don't act like people when it comes to people they care about. Plus the fact training him in the middle of an alien invasion is probably the WORST idea I can think of getting a speedster some training.

CB,

That makes a tad more sense but still think it's a stretch since it seems like the Dominators WOULD be back due to the fact the JSA triggered their senses/monitors.

Grey,

...I think I got that but not sure now.


Thomas Seitz wrote:

Phantom,

It was a fun and funny episode even if it was uneven in places. Also I understand why you might want Jay in there, but at the time it was more about doing things in force than merely by speed. Let's face it, Felicity had it right first: "This is a job for Supergirl."

Ahhhh but it's not really an 'either/or' situation. Barry's idea seemed to be get EVERY SUPERHERO that he knows. Star City, Future Spaceship, Even Alternate Earths...

The meta plot of course was to combine all four actual shows... but IN character, it was 'I can't do this alone...I need everyone." I'm just pointing out that there are some heroes he did NOT contact. Getting Jay and Jesse and even E-2 Wells with some giant gun or something would have been logical. He actually has had more dealings with them then has Kara.

As long as they're opening up portals on a whim... there wasn't any stated reason why only Kara and not his other allies. Some decisions are just made because that's the story they're telling. :)


Phantom,

That or maybe Barry doesn't have Jay on speed dial. Plus the fact he probably thought Jesse was busy saving Earth-2 from Metas to worry about aliens. And E-2 Wells would have not left his daughter.


Thomas Seitz wrote:

Phantom,

That or maybe Barry doesn't have Jay on speed dial. Plus the fact he probably thought Jesse was busy saving Earth-2 from Metas to worry about aliens. And E-2 Wells would have not left his daughter.

Ehhhh maybe?? But I don't see it. They just raced around the entire continent slapping pain buttons on aliens, Speed dial isn't an issue. That's really the problem with a character like Flash. You can't really say 'he didn't have time...' for anything. Open door to Jays world, spend a few minutes to find him. Took longer then that to explain why Steel and Vixen were staying on the ship. Add in the fact that it looks like Jay will be back for the mid season finale... just shows the options are there. They could have easily tossed out the line "We tried but couldn't find them..." or something, but didn't.

Wells very well MIGHT have left his daughter to help out, since 1) he wouldn't want his daughter helping... and 2) he actually likes Team Flash enough to not want them murdered by aliens. I could easily see him saying ssomehting like 'Yeah... Okay, but let's go before Jesse gets back, I don't want her involved with this. THAT's the DEAL..." I can picture that pretty easily.

The real reasons aren't 'in-character' at all. The reason they didn't get them is because it was a 4 show crossover. The cast was bloated enough as it was (though I DO think they balanced that kind of well...) HR and Wells-2 would have been redundant... and Arrow was doing the 100th episode 'Every face you ever saw coming back reunion'.... So there were a ton of Meta-reasons not to do it. Boils down to not expecting complete logic from characters because there ARE outside forces at work.


Phantom,

I think there's enough logic to justify why it didn't work, outside forces be darned. But that's me.


So now after the crossover we're back to the Legion of Doom. Thoughts?


Bump?


I haven't gotten a good feel for Merlyn yet. Any idea 'when' he's taken from? May be the bumpy camera work... but I couldn't tell if he had both hands or something else...

Very disappointed that Captain Cold is a voice in a head... I really want him on the LoD :-/


Phantom,

I think he had a fake hand. No clear idea when but I'd assume some time between Season 4 and Season 5.

I also wasn't happy with Captain Cold just being a 'vision'. But there's no reason to assume he'll stay that way.


Crossing my fingers. But really, the 3-person LoD seems a bit underwhelming. ESPECIALLY Dahrk. He was so epically awesome last season, that just seeing him toss out a few snarky remarks without the powerful magiks... just seems kind of 'meh'.

The only one really DOING anything is Thawne, and I'm still not used to seeing THAT actor play him. Most Thawnes epic moments had been while wearing a Harrison Wells mask...

I love the idea, but I'm hoping they pick up a bit more. Now that they are accomplishing some goals... maybe we'll be able to see what the actual 'plan' is??

Liberty's Edge

It is possible that Snart really IS Snart, somehow projecting himself as a 'vision'.

Merlyn definitely had a fake hand. Pinning down his origin point beyond that would be difficult because any knowledge he had of the future could just be from hanging out with a time traveler.

That said, I suspect they'll have him be from after his last appearance on Arrow.


CB,

I agree it's seems likely based on his conversations with Laurel, he's from at least 2015/2016.

Phantom,

I never much liked Darkh but I will admit this LoD does need a few more bad guys. Regardless, it's clear Thawne is the brains of the op to a greater degree than Damien or Malcolm. What they'll do with the Spear is beyond my ken since it's clearly more powerful than in the DC Universe. (Consider it kept the JSA out of WWII, that's saying something.)


Was I the only one that screamed at Damien Darkh for making George Lucas quit film school?

Also I'm glad to see some nods to George's best work.

Plus you know Spear of Destiny and now fully named Legion of Doom.

I just wish they'd know WHO Thawne was. It would make things more interesting. Maybe.


What I loved the most was the meta comment about actor playing Vandal Savage being as intimidating as a wiener dog. The website I was frequenting last year, the actual term was "wet fart".
Incidentally, I think the actor playing the actor playing Vandal might have actually been more intimidating than the one cast last year. (I wonder if it was a stunt double or the guy they passed over).

The George Lucas plot was very definitely done by people who loved his work, and are willing to forgive that his later work was not as good. A lot of moments I was loving there.
Pretty decent casting as well.

"I got the name from an old Hanna Barbera cartoon." Priceless!

Anyone not see how Snart is coming back - if Wentworth Miller wants to? Oh, and the comparison of the spear vs. Waverider: so it works like Barry?


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OMG the Trash Compactor...


Wave rider I do think works more like Barry than like say, act of God.

Vid,

Yes the Trash compactor.


Ok, I really want Black Siren to join the Legion of doom. That could be fun for a whole host of reasons!!


She is contracted for all four shows.


Hmmm!! Green has a point! Black Siren on Legion of Doom would be neat.
Plus it would give Thawne a metahuman he couldn't easily push around.


Considering she was manhandled by what seems to be a perfectly normal human, not sure why Thawne would have any issue. She doesn't even have any fighting skills beyond her voice, and apparently has a glass jaw too.

Then again Darhk and Merlyn are jobbing pretty hard right now too, so she'd fit right in.


Sun,

Jobbing? Yes. But so far neither of them seem like their hearts are in it. I mean other than a chance to hold a mystical artifact of unknown power...


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Sundakan wrote:

Considering she was manhandled by what seems to be a perfectly normal human, not sure why Thawne would have any issue. She doesn't even have any fighting skills beyond her voice, and apparently has a glass jaw too.

Then again Darhk and Merlyn are jobbing pretty hard right now too, so she'd fit right in.

I think her being on the team would more what her effect would be on sister more than any power she has.


good point john! Sarah is pretty well the glue of the team at this point.


Well right now at least we've established two things:

Merlyn and Darkh have got the skillz to take on Speedsters.

Black Flash is awesome. :)


John Kretzer wrote:
Sundakan wrote:

Considering she was manhandled by what seems to be a perfectly normal human, not sure why Thawne would have any issue. She doesn't even have any fighting skills beyond her voice, and apparently has a glass jaw too.

Then again Darhk and Merlyn are jobbing pretty hard right now too, so she'd fit right in.

I think her being on the team would more what her effect would be on sister more than any power she has.

Yeah, for a time travel show... having a woman on the evil team with the past version of the man who killed your doppelganger, while the E1 version of HER dead sister is trying to avenge that death...

That's just gold.

Sara, Darhk, and Laurel would all have some fun stuff to add to that stew.


Phantom,

Indeed. What about Black Flash though?


Thomas Seitz wrote:

Phantom,

Indeed. What about Black Flash though?

What about him? To join the LoD?? I'd say hard pass on that. First of all, we already have an evil speedster and Thawne has much more personality and charisma then zombie grim reaper thing.

I'd like to see more of it, but I like have Thawne around.


Phantom,

Not necessarily to be on it, maybe more like a kind of ultimate weapon the LoD might have under their control. Unless you don't think it's possible. (I admit it's a stretch even for me.)

But what I was more getting at was if you thought Black Flash looked the best since he's never been on TV before. Or anywhere really.


Thomas Seitz wrote:

Phantom,

Not necessarily to be on it, maybe more like a kind of ultimate weapon the LoD might have under their control. Unless you don't think it's possible. (I admit it's a stretch even for me.)

But what I was more getting at was if you thought Black Flash looked the best since he's never been on TV before. Or anywhere really.

Ehhh...

Honestly, I think he's overkill. Really, they haven't given much of a reason that Thawne even needs Malcolm or Darhk's help. Outside of the painfully underused Firestorm, Reverse Flash is so far above everyone else's pay grade that it's insane. Even in the comic's the only one with any experience fighting speedsters would be Mick... and by experience, I mean getting his butt handed to him repeatedly.

I really don't think they NEED an 'ultimate weapon' of the caliber of Black Flash... There's not much he can do that Thawne couldn't on his own.

I thought he looked cool, and would like to see him show up in Flash sometime... but Against a mech suit and a couple martial artists... I'd really rather he NOT be used. They'll just need some PIS reason to beat him and we'll all be disappointed.

Besides... I don't know much about him in the comics... but has Black Flash ever been used against a NON-speedster? I thought he was just 'death' for those who can outrun death?


Phantom,

He's kind of Death for Speedsters, yes but not because they out run Regular Death. At least, not that I recall.

As for him being used against non-speedster...not that I recall either but I always thought of him as kind of bad ass since no one ever COULD defeat him.

This week's episode also proved to me two things; Rip Hunter is better as British, and Sarah Lance is the better of the two captains.

Oh and Amaya will totally be pregnant with Nate's kid! ;)


Am I the only one hoping that Mick trains his new pet and starts treating him like his new partner? I believe he has already proven his might!


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Jack,

I'd prefer they just give the rat a mini-flame thrower and be done with it...


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This episode in many ways shows why Sara is a better leader than Rip. She kept Firestorm behind AND together as backup! Among other things Rip failed at.


Yeah no question, Sara deserves to be Captain and leader. She just shouldn't be trusted to not alter the timeline.


Thomas Seitz wrote:
Yeah no question, Sara deserves to be Captain and leader. She just shouldn't be trusted to not alter the timeline.

Who on the team SHOULD?? Ray?? He's the only one I can think of that hasn't treated time like a sandbox so far. Grey has a new daughter, Sarah wants to save her sister, Jax has a dead dad that he's at least resisted tampering with so far.. Even the historian is sleeping with the gal from the 40's now!

And Mick... the agent of the Time Masters... Basically said screw Washington because Franklin is cooler anyway! Still the worst concept ever for a Time travel team... and they're in the same universe as Barry Allen.


I know the show is American and all, but there is SO much more history to choose from than America (usually 20th C). The writers should take the opportunity to show some less famous periods and places.

Still enjoying the show and glad to see it's better than last season.


Bjorn,

It's better than last season for jettisoning the Hawks and giving us better bad guys.

Phantom,

I'm just saying that she's a good captain. Less so of a Time Master. They should get Booster Gold to handle that.


Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:

I know the show is American and all, but there is SO much more history to choose from than America (usually 20th C). The writers should take the opportunity to show some less famous periods and places.

Still enjoying the show and glad to see it's better than last season.

No I agree There is so much broader history that is non-american. maybe it makes it easier for them to film?


Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:

I know the show is American and all, but there is SO much more history to choose from than America (usually 20th C). The writers should take the opportunity to show some less famous periods and places.

Still enjoying the show and glad to see it's better than last season.

Its a matter of practicality. Did you notice the "18th century mansion"? I'm pretty sure it was in an episode of one of the other shows in the 21st century. Wait, Vandal Savage's house, the one where Ray set off the burglar alarm?

Even the "Chernobyl Gulag" was the same building that is used as schools and government buildings in every other episode of Legends. (The road used throughout this episode is probably the same one from "France" earlier in the season.)

Setting an episode in a foreign country means finding buildings with suitable architecture, and suitable vehicles, etc. Which is expensive. As would shipping the actors elsewhere.

Its one of the big reasons why Quantum Leap limited time travel to a 40 year period. Doctor Who can pull it off, because the UK has so many old buildings, castles, etc. that pre-date the founding of the first American colonies (and traveling to France is (was?) about as big a deal as filming in LA as opposed to Vancouver).

That said, I agree with wanting to see more of history than 20th century America. Looks like next episode will see Camelot. I wonder if Sir Justin and Jason Blood will be involved.

Was I the only American who was nodding during Mick's speech to Gen. Washington? Its depressing to think that he represents the best of us, when he is also the worst (but then there is a lot in common to both categories).
Also, I loved his opening narration. Having a different character do the narration each week sets it apart from the other three shows, makes it actually worth watching each week.


OOOO Jason blood would be so cool probably pre-demon I would imagine If they did great would be my reaction. I'm sure Etrigan is a CG nightmare. His creation would be expensive to render fair.


I thought of him because of a video about Constantine I watched last weekend. In addition to setting up Doctor Fate and the Spectre, the producers had planned to introduce Blood/Etrigan, Zatanna, and another DC magic-user (I can't recall the third). When I saw the preview for next week, it clicked with me.


Is it really that bad though? I mean, I'm also a fan of Doctor Who and the in 50 years of Earth adventures, only what? 3 have taken place outside of Great Britain? 90% of the rest are some variety of London or Cardiff?

Just going off fuzzy memory here, but we've seen Sara seduce the queen of france, WWII France, wherever the League of Shadows hangs out, cold war Russia, WWII Germany, feudal Japan, Ancient Egypt...

Compared to something like Doctor Who or Quantum Leap... It feels to me like they really are jumping all over 'world' history.


phantom1592 wrote:

Is it really that bad though? I mean, I'm also a fan of Doctor Who and the in 50 years of Earth adventures, only what? 3 have taken place outside of Great Britain? 90% of the rest are some variety of London or Cardiff?

Ignoring the ones set in the future, I assume, since most of those aren't specified where they take place. There were five historicals set outside of England in the first two seasons alone and several more later. Most of the rest up to Pertwee's era and most after were off-planet or at least historical.

It's really Pertwee's period with the budget cuts that made everything happen in contemporary England. that and nuWho.

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