Legends of Tomorrow


Television

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CB,

That might be likely. All am certain is that in this kind of reality, I'm certain that I feel more badly for Rip than I do Martin.

Also, to be fair, destroying the spear this way MIGHT later influence Tolkein. I mean otherwise we'd have Lord of the Rings and needing the blood of Sauron to destroy the One Ring.

Other thoughts:

I'm so glad they did this because now we can be sure Laurel isn't coming back. At least not through time travel anyways.


He doesn't care about the challenge - the reason Snart did what he did. He is even more casual about killing than his first appearance (which pissed me off). And he doesn't care about his crew.


Green,

I think it's something different no doubt. But the fact is this Snart isn't the Snart that Heatweave (and by extension the rest of us) knew watching the first season of the Flash.

Liberty's Edge

I've really enjoyed Legends these few weeks. I feel like the show shines when they focus on their metaplot instead of filler to pad the season length. Legends is already the shortest CW DC show in terms of season length. I wouldn't mind making it a little shorter if it meant we got more strong episodes like these.

Spoiler:
Am I the only person a little disappointed that the characters didn't even consider not resetting the timeline? Sure, a bunch of superheroes are dead and a few bad guys control the city but think about the good they've accomplished - ending global warming is no small task. I mean, Trump is their president but we have that and we still have to deal with global warming.


Feral,

I think the fact that basic human freedoms might be in jeopardy might be a motivating factor combined with some of those killed WERE their friends. Well maybe not for Mick, but certainly Sara and Ray.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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I loved the shape of the building with the reactor in it. Great nod to the Legion of Doom there.


CBDunkerson wrote:
I don't think there is ANY point in the timeline which explains this version of Snart. He is a fundamentally different / more malevolent character than he was even before meeting Flash and starting down his 'road to redemption'. Maybe they used that mind rewiring gizmo on him like they did to Rip.
GreenDragon1133 wrote:
He doesn't care about the challenge - the reason Snart did what he did. He is even more casual about killing than his first appearance (which pissed me off). And he doesn't care about his crew.

I haven't rewatched the first Heat Wave/ 2nd Capt. Cold episode yet... but I do disagree with this assessment of his first Episode.

In the first episode... He says he doesn't kill cops because he doesn't need the heat. However, when one of his crew shoots a guard... Snart shoots him face to face back at the hideout for daring to suggest leaving the crew. He Kills the guy who stole the cold gun from STAR labs so he'd be the only one who knows about it... He tells the rest of his crew they better kill him because he will kill them if he ever sees them again... He randomly shoots at civilians just to see A) How fast the flash is... and B) if he cares about people more then stopping him... and the last one Flash was too slow for.

He also shoots Flash a couple times with the intent to kill him... and derails a train just as a distraction...

Soooooo He was a killing machine that first episode, and while he ran a tight crew... if they crossed him, he was quick to murder them too.

I too think that Snart would have gotten bored without any kind of challenge. That kind of crime just seems boring to me... but he also wanted Central City to be his personal playground... so he may have still been enjoying that a bit.

Honestly I love the 'Cold' Snart that just chews the scenery in those early episodes and think they kind of wimped him up a bit once they made him a 'good guy' on Legends. I like the thief with a code... but I also like the 'He good enough to do this without killing... but killing is certainly an option' version that he was on Flash and for that matter the source comics.

He was one of the first villains that actually felt like a serious threat... AND he got away with the diamond in the end. So he actually Won...

After Legends season 1, I can certainly see a shock at how he is here... but I don't see this as a vast departure from what we've seen before. I suspect he was picked up somewhere just after the first episode that he got the gun... but before Barry made the 'deal/bargain/bet' with him on his 4th episode...


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Ah yes, the Trump reference. Because 100% of all bad guys are Pro-Trump and 100% of all superheroes - including Billionaire Ray Palmer - are anti-Trump. Rolls Eyes.

Once again the writers insert their politics at the expense of logic. In the real world about half of everyone who actually cares is one or the other, and you will find both in most groups. But not on Earth-1 or 38 apparently.


Green,

I think they said they made it BEFORE the election! So politics wasn't a key factor.

Phantom,

Mm you might be right. But it still felt off in some ways. We'll see.

Best thing about this was the memory gun for me.


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CBDunkerson wrote:
I don't think there is ANY point in the timeline which explains this version of Snart. He is a fundamentally different / more malevolent character than he was even before meeting Flash and starting down his 'road to redemption'. Maybe they used that mind rewiring gizmo on him like they did to Rip.

I don't know -- his personality is pretty close to Snart's first appearance now that I think about it, where he was a straight-up, cold, calculating, murdering bank robber. Over the course of a season-and-a-half of the Flash and the first season of Legends he transformed into an anti-hero. The "warm and fuzzy" version of Snart is stuck in our heads because it is our most recent reference.


Question,

Was Felicity trying for Black Canary or Huntress with that outfit?


It does remind me of Ashley Scott's outfit from BoP. And since there was a Black Canary reference elsewhere in the ep, I'm gonna say Huntress or someone new.


So okay one vote for Huntress.

Sovereign Court

She was trying for broken neck


Hama,

I thought it was broken foot...


Something that keeps bugging me, either a red herring or possibly something important, Snarts ring that Heatwave has from when Snart sacrificed himself blowing up the temporal eye, Snart mentioned that as long as he had that ring, he always had a sixth sense of when something wasn't right. I'm wondering if something might happen were the ring and spear come in contact.


So...I guess this proves one thing, going back in time is a bad idea.

But the fx deaths were pretty awesomely gruesome. So...there's that.


Feral wrote:

I've really enjoyed Legends these few weeks. I feel like the show shines when they focus on their metaplot instead of filler to pad the season length. Legends is already the shortest CW DC show in terms of season length. I wouldn't mind making it a little shorter if it meant we got more strong episodes like these.

** spoiler omitted **

RE: Spoiler - So the ending to Emperor Doom?

I'm assuming the Flash music at the end was a means of hinting at a Flashpoint level screw up.

Spoiler:

I'm also wondering if Rip is heading to Vanishing Point to scavenge another Time Ship. And why leave Gideon behind?


Greenie,

No idea but I do think I will miss Eobard a good bit. But I guess the Legion of Doom had run its course.

Still disconcerted about how many hearts got ripped out in this episode...


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TarSpartan wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
I don't think there is ANY point in the timeline which explains this version of Snart. He is a fundamentally different / more malevolent character than he was even before meeting Flash and starting down his 'road to redemption'. Maybe they used that mind rewiring gizmo on him like they did to Rip.
I don't know -- his personality is pretty close to Snart's first appearance now that I think about it, where he was a straight-up, cold, calculating, murdering bank robber. Over the course of a season-and-a-half of the Flash and the first season of Legends he transformed into an anti-hero. The "warm and fuzzy" version of Snart is stuck in our heads because it is our most recent reference.

And I think this episode kinda answers why Snart changed. I think Mick alter his mind when erased his memories. As he said setting him on the right path.


It might be that. I dunno. I do know if I had been Sara, I'd still have punched Damien right there anyway.


Rip needs to be a new Time Master. The Time Masters were gigantic jerk-faces... but they actually did serve a purpose. Season 1 dealt with Time Pirates.. now the Legion... frankly the Legends themselves... There is a distinct NEED for someone or something to maintain what history SHOULD be.

Frankly there are too many threats for the Legends alone... not counting the threats that are the legends themselves. Rip is really the ONLY one left who actually IS qualified to take the reins on the universe. I sincerely hope that season 3 is Rip (and a new team) vs. Legends... Maybe Legion of Superheroes... maybe L.E.G.I.O.N, Something future based for sure...

Finale:
WHAT THE HECK?!?! So Vixen has moved into the Biggest moron on the team?? It was quite a jump for someone who only had ONE season to screw things up... but she made up lost ground tonight!!

Sooooo... basically Yeah, they just got their tails kicked in to a giant time storm threatening to break the universe because they messed with time paradoxes... Then she decides Nahhhh... I don't want to go back home, I'll stay here and let destiny sort itself out. After all.. we have a time machine... how bad can it be. Worst Case scenario, I could be frozen solid and murdered thus breaking time even more... but what are the odds of that...

Oh... Right... that literally JUST happened... and cliffhanger??? Time is broken!!!

Sigh....

I already miss Thawne. He was a great villain in show without a Flash. I had a lot of fun with the legion of Doom... I hold out hope that we have in fact seen him erased from time before and he found a way back... so who knows. On the other hand that well may get old if they tap it too often, so I think it'll be a while before we see him again, and it WAS a pretty good death.


I really hope someone comes to the conclusion that time as it 'should' be is merely single state of affairs that is no more right or wrong than any other, just an arbitrarily chosen timeline they prefer over any others. By all means make some good arguments why it's a good idea to have this (bookkeeping and butterfly effects, I should think), but please move away from one being Right Real and everything else being Wrong and Fake.


Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
I really hope someone comes to the conclusion that time as it 'should' be is merely single state of affairs that is no more right or wrong than any other, just an arbitrarily chosen timeline they prefer over any others. By all means make some good arguments why it's a good idea to have this (bookkeeping and butterfly effects, I should think), but please move away from one being Right Real and everything else being Wrong and Fake.

Paradoxes and butterfly effects are pretty much the thing. If you're from the 64th century and you change stuff in the 20th... and erase your own existence... thus stopping you from going back and changing stuff in the 20th...

Then time storm and Dinosaurs in 2017... which I guess isn't ALL Bad ;)

But yeah, the way all of history is basically a response to what happened just before it and the whole thing can fall apart real easy. Things will still exist, but They wouldn't... their loved ones wouldn't... their country may not... heck the world itself could be destroyed in nuclear fire if the wrong things happened at key points in history.

So yeah... if the show is based on time travelers from the future... especially in a shared universe like this, then they have to stick with the baseline of 'Don't erase our world'...

ON that note... Timeless was a pretty fun show that allowed 'little ripples' pretty freely. I haven't heard yet, but I'm hoping it gets a second season. They usually start the show telling you how something really happened... and then someone tries to stop that from happening... and the 'heroes' have to make sure it happened 'similar' to what originally did and then explain to the people in the present what they had changed.

Dark Archive

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phantom1592 wrote:

Rip needs to be a new Time Master. The Time Masters were gigantic jerk-faces... but they actually did serve a purpose. Season 1 dealt with Time Pirates.. now the Legion... frankly the Legends themselves... There is a distinct NEED for someone or something to maintain what history SHOULD be.

Frankly there are too many threats for the Legends alone... not counting the threats that are the legends themselves. Rip is really the ONLY one left who actually IS qualified to take the reins on the universe.

Eh, the joy of time travel stuff is that there doesn't have to be a competent team of time cops *now*, so long as there has been in the past, and might be again in the future, since those past and future time fixers can always pop into the now to deal with time anomalies or aberrations or whatever.

That would be funky, for Rip and company to run into various time masters that died in a previous season, visiting from their own pasts to deal with something they've identified as a problem, unaware that Rip comes from a future in which they are all dead.


All I know is Rip no longer being on the show feels...wrong to me.

Even more wrong than as Phantom said about Amaya's choice to stay on the Waverider.

But I do hope like Phantom said, down the line, the return of Thawne would be great. It doesn't have to be next season but soon. He made a great villain for this season, much like he did in Season 1 of the Flash.

Still thought there was too much heart ripping though...

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

I don't see Amaya's choice as a big deal at all. She didn't say she'd NEVER go back to her place in history, just that she wasn't going now. The beauty of time travel is she can go back at any point - at the end of a season, or when the series is over entirely, and still fulfill her destiny in terms of her village and grand daughter, the current Vixen.

Ad for Rip, I don't think we've seen the last of him. I expect he'll be a recurring character, who might recruit the Legends for an episode or two and then go away.


JoelF847 wrote:

I don't see Amaya's choice as a big deal at all. She didn't say she'd NEVER go back to her place in history, just that she wasn't going now. The beauty of time travel is she can go back at any point - at the end of a season, or when the series is over entirely, and still fulfill her destiny in terms of her village and grand daughter, the current Vixen.

Unless she is murdered horribly and shattered into a thousand pieces while trying to work with the Legends. Which... literally JUST happened and they broke time to fix.

This should have been the wake up call to hurry up and put everything right before it's too late... and they take that hard left toward poor judgement.

One of the key points to the Legends selection... were that they don't matter to history. If Ray or Sara or Firestorm disappear, there are no ripples in the timeline. Amaya has been shown to have a heroic legacy that affects the present.


phantom1592 wrote:
If you're from the 64th century and you change stuff in the 20th... and erase your own existence... thus stopping you from going back and changing stuff in the 20th...

Thawne is from the 25th Century. Abra Kadabra is from the 64th.


Damon Griffin wrote:
phantom1592 wrote:
If you're from the 64th century and you change stuff in the 20th... and erase your own existence... thus stopping you from going back and changing stuff in the 20th...
Thawne is from the 25th Century. Abra Kadabra is from the 64th.

I know, it was just an example. Thawne's already erased from time and trying to come back... I was more thinking about the Time Masters in general. Can't remember if they pinpointed Rip's birth year... ... I know they were always secretive about that in the comics. But the Time Masters in general have to be closer to the 64th than the 25th Thawne still uses speed to time travel while Abra did it without speed.


The reason though Abra does it without speed is because he's already gotten down how to use tech from different eras to make a time ship.

Thawne just travels through time because duh, he's a speedster. Speedsters break the time barrier a lot.

Liberty's Edge

I've read articles saying that Rip will return in season 3.

The character has been in and out due to the actor having other commitments... nothing to do with the writers wanting/not wanting him around.


This last episode really tested my 'ignore how they completely misuse superspeed' filter. To the point where it collapsed entirely. One speedster should have been enough to kill everyone like he did with Ray, but Thawne needed a couple dozen of himself to do....f#%! all, really.


Bjorn,

Maybe he just wanted to ensure he wouldn't miss anyone just in case. Plus he did say he was getting back up....

CB,

Good to know! I like Rip.


If superspeed was used properly I don't see how he could miss anyone.


Bjorn,

Well just because you can use it properly doesn't preclude the fact that Thawne is still human. Humans make mistakes. (See letting the Legends live.)


Why make excuses its cause they have no way of dealing with someone that is as super fast as thawmne. so they have to use trick and nerf it a bit and they wanted a lot of hims at the end for the visual effect. really 1 thawne for each legend would be more then enough to beat them before they can take a second breath but that wouldn't do well for the story now would it? I'll take it for what it is and expect them to improve it as the show goes on.

There is also the funny free kill thing hey look all the characters with a double gets killed but fortunately the important ones lived. awful suspect but lets be honest we know why they did it. Its same writing tricks they've used for years.

Still I enjoyed this season a lot more then the last probably more then arrow and flash's current seasons too.


Almost like they should have had a Legend capable of taking him on:
- Maybe a character with totemic animal powers channeling Cheetah - like her granddaughter did against Barry.
- A character capable of Molecular Manipulation turning the ground to tar in order to preclude his running.
- A shrinking character getting into his inner ear, or otherwise disrupting him while being too small to see.
- A time traveler having a future weapon designed for the purpose.
- A Canary Cry attack that is an area effect.


Yeah they do need to break out the legends powers more but I don't think any of those options would of stopped eobard if he just super speeded and ripped everyone hearts outs. cheetah is not even a noticeable difference for a speedster. they could kill fire storms two components before he ever transformed. we already saw what he did to ray, yeah the time traveler is the one I could say should have something ill give you that one. White canary doesn't do the canary call it would be kind of out of the blue.


That's the thing though, Mari McCabe was racing against the Flash, before she fully figured out her powers, in her own series. Why couldn't her more experienced grandmother have been a credible threat to Thawne?


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Greenie,

My guess? Her magic wasn't as strong. Maybe not enough experience IE the talisman hasn't tried to outrun a Speedster. Plus Barry WAS slower than Thawne for a while.

Also Vid is correct, Sara doesn't have a canary cry.

As for why Firestorm didn't do more transmutation? Best guess is they're still working out the kinks. I mean they've barely transformed/transmuted more than just a few hundred powers. Not sure about dirt and the mass thingie.

Also remember Thawne already said most of Rip's anti-speedster stuff he got from Thawne. So...


Thomas Seitz wrote:

Greenie,

My guess? Her magic wasn't as strong. Maybe not enough experience IE the talisman hasn't tried to outrun a Speedster. Plus Barry WAS slower than Thawne for a while.

Also Vid is correct, Sara doesn't have a canary cry.

As for why Firestorm didn't do more transmutation? Best guess is they're still working out the kinks. I mean they've barely transformed/transmuted more than just a few hundred powers. Not sure about dirt and the mass thingie.

Also remember Thawne already said most of Rip's anti-speedster stuff he got from Thawne. So...

I'm aware Sara doesn't. I'm also aware there is no reason Cisco or Jax or Gideon couldn't have made her one.


Jax isn't what I'd call inventor. Gideon...might not have the record for that.


I don't think they will give her a canary cry in this one I think there going a different route for her. Keeping the cry for the black canaries.

I do keep saying firestorm could do a lot more.


Vid,

Yeah but again FX budget on this show isn't great...


Yeah that is why I give them a lot of slack.

Sovereign Court

It's a really fun show
I've enjoyed every episode.
I like that they are not taking themselves seriously.


Well we'll see when season 3 starts if that stays true or not.


Anyone else feel a bit saturated with CWverse shows? Somehow both Legends and Supergirl just made the whole thing too much for me. With the exception of Arrow this season, I keep feeling diminished enjoyment from watching them.


Not sure about that but I am glad Legends is over for now. Even if 17 episodes felt short to some, it accomplished more in that time frame than Season 1 ever did.

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