Legends of Tomorrow


Television

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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

When did this become a Disney princess movie?


Just finished episode 10. Argh. This team is constantly defeated by their own shortsightedness and ill-preparedness. Then the bad writing fumbling around with the whole "go back in time and kill Hitler" question. I'm only going to continue watching to see Jonah Hex.

Oh, and a little research shows that H.G. Wells once visited Ellis Island in 1906, but that's it. No trips to the Wild West, which really wasn't all that wild by the beginning of the 20th century.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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I think there are absolutely no rules to time travel. Just writer fiat.


Shadowborn wrote:

Just finished episode 10. Argh. This team is constantly defeated by their own shortsightedness and ill-preparedness. Then the bad writing fumbling around with the whole "go back in time and kill Hitler" question. I'm only going to continue watching to see Jonah Hex.

Oh, and a little research shows that H.G. Wells once visited Ellis Island in 1906, but that's it. No trips to the Wild West, which really wasn't all that wild by the beginning of the 20th century.

honestly, shady history lessons are the least of this show's problems. Better time travel shows then this have played fast and loose with historical facts.

Honestly... I don't know about this show anymore. I'm a stanch supporter of all things superhero related. Still, as much as I've supported this, it's REALLY becoming a train wreck.

LoT:
The amount of paradox creating stupidy is astounding! This last episode alone, they are SEVERELY screwing with their own timeline. They've kidnapped themselves as babies and left them 'somewhere in time'... Jackson rewriting his dad's history...

Even... or especially the Time Masters are even worse. Authroizing MASSIVE changes to the time stream because they can't put a bullet in a couple of Time Pirates? Which is what I now refer to Rip's team as ;)

And really... We don't know where Vandal Savage is in time??

REALLY?!?!?

REALLY?!?!? You have NO idea where he is?? Considering nobody has a problem screwing with the timeline at this point... KENDRA knows where he was at least 200+ times. Go to ANY of her previous deaths and hit him while he's basking in his quickening.

Oh? Kendra doesn't remember... What old-west Kendra? She remembers where Carter was killed... They found her son in the 60's who would remember where his parents were killed...

The clues are there. They just need to use them. Considering again that they don't mind paradoxs... They failed to kill him on Tuesday in 1963... try again on Monday 1963... He'll never see it coming.

OR at the least give us some goofy reason WHY it's not ok to take the simple route.

I'm honestly watching it now JUST to shake my head in wonder... I haven't really 'enjoyed' an episode in at least a few weeks...

I will say i'm astonished how much I do like Mic all of a sudden. He went from the deadest of the dead weight, to someone who's actually fun to have around.


Well...

Spoiler:

At least they achieved an objective in this last episode. They actually defeated an adversary! I mean, they had to rely on an 8 year old getting the drop on a time-stopping assassin, but they at least had some success.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Palmer even ruined

Spoiler:
"Come with me if you want to live" by joking about it. It would have been funnier if he didn't joke about it. Such horrible dialogue. Ugh. I mean, trust your audience of time travel genre fans to get pop culture time travel genre references.


I can't say I find issue with Jackson changing his timeline. He resisted temptation like 3 separate times over the course of the episode, when the 4th time came around I would have assumed it was the universe trying to tell me something too.

Quote:

Considering again that they don't mind paradoxs... They failed to kill him on Tuesday in 1963... try again on Monday 1963... He'll never see it coming.

OR at the least give us some goofy reason WHY it's not ok to take the simple route.

Apparently this in particular is ENTIRELY impossible. At that point the timestream is "locked" and they can't interfere with their own timelines in that general area of the timeline. That was the reason the assassin in this episode only got one shot per person.

It's f#&+ing stupid and entirely nonsensical, but the explanation DOES exist.

I enjoyed the last two episodes since at least it didn't make them out to be utter morons like some previous episodes did. Really, they just need to drop the "Can't change time!" limit and just have fun with visiting different time periods.

"Time wants to happen", remember? Meaning logically that unless they do something DRASTIC to change the timeline in some intensely huge way, the timeline should bounce back.

They've already shown a few times that "changing" things was how they happened in the first place!


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My issues with this show are the same as they are for the other CW superhero shows: conflict resolutions (and how LoT handles time paradoxes can we interfere/can't we/how even should we issues) are really, really bad. I think LoT's big fight scenes are more fun to watch than the other shows on the air, just because they seem to have a bigger effects budget and the fights are often wide-angle affairs that get multiple members of the crew in one shot at a time, but apart from the spectacle of it, how they deal with problems is bad.

It's bad on all the shows.

But what I do enjoy, like with Flash especially, are the character moments. I loved Jackson's scenes with his dad. I loved Mick talking to his younger self. I like how he thanked Ray for saving his younger self and that he calls Ray "Haircut". It's a term of endearment from Mick, though he wouldn't ever admit it, and shows that he's really starting to develop some respect for Ray because he sticks to his ideals. And I *really* enjoyed Quentin Lance showing up and laughing with younger Sarah followed later by his farewell with older Sarah at the end. Kendra accusing Sarah of sounding like Snart only for the pair of them to moments later fawn and coo over little baby Leonard? I really liked that!

I dug Ray's scenes with Kendra too. Sometimes I forget that they've lived 2 years off screen together and had all that time to fall in love, but Routh is able to sell it when Ray has those tender moments with Kendra.

It's all those human moments, those bits when the vagabond heroes show they're more than the assortment of their various powers that keep me coming back to the show.

Is it the best? Certainly not. Am I pretty sure any of us talking about the show here could write some more cohesive episodes? You betcha. But I still enjoy the show enough to keep watching.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The whole premise of the Time Masters sending anyone after the LoT is flawed anyway. They know when and where he was when he stole his ship to start this whole thing, They kill him then, the LoT fade back into obscurity, their timeline is preserved, andall the work he did for them up to that point is preserved.

That doesn't work? Go back one mission, assign it to someone else, blip.

Rip Hunter's timeline is well known to the Time Masters.

Dark Archive

The problem is that in going back to the previous day to kill Savage is that you create a paradox as well.
If you fail to kill Savage on Tuesday and you decide to go back and get him on Monday and you're successful, then there was no reason to go to Tuesday in the first place because Savage was already dead. So if you didn't go to Tuesday in the first place, then there was no reason to go to Monday to follow up.
You would have to go to Wednesday, at which point Savage is aware of you and may have taken precautions.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Paradox, Shmaradox.

They should just have fun and totally mess with the timeline. They should each win the lottery a dozen times. They should go back in time and put necessary equipment in their pockets so they have it when they need it. Each of them should have a pet Atom in their pockets anyways.

At least kill Hitler if you can't kill Randall Savage.

I kind of get the feeling they wanted to do a big team of superheroes on a spaceship, but didn't want to deal with aliens or space for some reason, and someone jokingly suggested it was a timeship instead of a spaceship, and they kind of ran with that without thinking about the consequences.


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Marik Whiterose wrote:

The problem is that in going back to the previous day to kill Savage is that you create a paradox as well.

If you fail to kill Savage on Tuesday and you decide to go back and get him on Monday and you're successful, then there was no reason to go to Tuesday in the first place because Savage was already dead. So if you didn't go to Tuesday in the first place, then there was no reason to go to Monday to follow up.
You would have to go to Wednesday, at which point Savage is aware of you and may have taken precautions.

If they kill Vandal Savage ANY time before 2166... Rip will have never lost his family and needed to collect the team to kill Vandal Savage...

The whole show concept is based on that paradox... they really don't seem to mind.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

There is the possibility that the Time Masters actually secretly WANT Rip and the LoT to succeed, because that's what history says happened to Savage. They could have kept this from Rip from his earliest days as a Time Master, and all of the assassins being sent after them are part of the plan to push them harder take more risks, etc, until they finally win, because that's the necessary set of circumstances for it all to happen as it was always meant to be.

This would be a bit too similar to Season 1 Flash having Reverse Flash constantly push Barry to become faster so he's able to help RF's actual plan, but it would solve the issues of why are the Time Masters clumsily trying to kill the team rather than nip things in the bud.

Maybe being used to "make things happen the way they were always supposed to" is actually the secret final test to become a REAL Time Master rather than a probationary one, and this will get Rip admitted into the inner circle or something.


If this is being subject to official review, I'd be doubtful of Rip's chances of passing his test.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

After the cowboy episode I started compiling a list of who Rip Hunter is and isn't willing to kill.

1) Goes to ancient Egypt expressly to kill Vandal Savage. Has him on the ropes. Can't kill him due to unknown reasons? So genocidal dictator maniac who also had the added distinction of directly killing Rip's wife and child? Can't kill him.

2) Absconds with the little mini ship with "future Hitler 2.0", once again expressly with the intent to kill him. This isn't a hypothetical future Hitler 2.0, he KNOWS this kid will kill millions, or billions or whatever. Also, this action will directly lead to Vandal Savage's rise to power. Once again: can't kill him.

3) Random no-name, no consequence gang leader from the old west? Guns him down in a duel. With absolutely ZERO QUALMS.

Then of course with this week's episode we can add that 10 year old Rip is willing to kill the crazily inept time assassin lady, so I guess there's that....


That actually makes sense to me though... Some people's death REALLY don't affect history all that much, Some people like Savage and future Hitler have a LOT of intricate spider webs rippling throughout history.

Kill him in year X and he's stopped from killing a bunch of people....

kill him in year Y however, and he's a martyr who rallies a much worse evil to his cause...

That's the kind of time travel stuff I like. Actions and consequences...

Kill the gang leader on Tuesday... he dies.

Let the gang leader live on Tuesday... next Monday he dies of dysentery or bar fight... Regardless, itty bitty ripple there.

Dark Archive

Sticking to good things to say;

The practical effects on Sara and Quentin Lance's younger selves were pretty amazing, even if they were mostly wigs.

I'm beginning to like post-Kronos Mick more and more.


They really brought out the potentially good character I always knew Mick could be in these recent episodes. My only regret is that it seems to have come at the expense of ANY character interaction between he and Snart, which is too bad because the actors have great chemistry together (to be expected, I suppose. I never watched Prison Break but working with someone that long you have to learn how to play well off each other).

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Prison Break is worth checking out. It's no Oz, but still pretty brutal.


Sundakan wrote:
They really brought out the potentially good character I always knew Mick could be in these recent episodes. My only regret is that it seems to have come at the expense of ANY character interaction between he and Snart, which is too bad because the actors have great chemistry together (to be expected, I suppose. I never watched Prison Break but working with someone that long you have to learn how to play well off each other).

Agreed.

I REALLY wish they could focus on more then one or two characters at a time...

Ever since they started making Mick awesome... Snart has moved entirely to the background. He REALLY hasn't done anything interesting since he froze his hand off...

Which, I REALLY hated. Especially when the pipe the handcuffs were on... was RIGHT there.

Sovereign Court

phantom1592 wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
They really brought out the potentially good character I always knew Mick could be in these recent episodes. My only regret is that it seems to have come at the expense of ANY character interaction between he and Snart, which is too bad because the actors have great chemistry together (to be expected, I suppose. I never watched Prison Break but working with someone that long you have to learn how to play well off each other).

Agreed.

I REALLY wish they could focus on more then one or two characters at a time...

Ever since they started making Mick awesome... Snart has moved entirely to the background. He REALLY hasn't done anything interesting since he froze his hand off...

Which, I REALLY hated. Especially when the pipe the handcuffs were on... was RIGHT there.

Takes much longer to freeze a pipe.


Hama wrote:
phantom1592 wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
They really brought out the potentially good character I always knew Mick could be in these recent episodes. My only regret is that it seems to have come at the expense of ANY character interaction between he and Snart, which is too bad because the actors have great chemistry together (to be expected, I suppose. I never watched Prison Break but working with someone that long you have to learn how to play well off each other).

Agreed.

I REALLY wish they could focus on more then one or two characters at a time...

Ever since they started making Mick awesome... Snart has moved entirely to the background. He REALLY hasn't done anything interesting since he froze his hand off...

Which, I REALLY hated. Especially when the pipe the handcuffs were on... was RIGHT there.

Takes much longer to freeze a pipe.

Shouldn't with HIS gun ;)

Sovereign Court

Let's see. Human flesh, fraction of a second. Pipe, several seconds. And he was pretty short on time at the moment.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I didn't like the quick fix. There were absolutely no consequences to such an extreme action.

Also, it means none of the other characters should ever walk around with black eyes or scrapes or scratches with that medical unit on their ship.

Sovereign Court

I was hoping for a robotic hand


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Same.


The hand regeneration was worse considering the med-bay's track record thus far. Couldn't save the professor, who was shot using what the med-bay should consider contemporary technology. Couldn't save Hawkgirl from the bits of Savage's dagger floating around in her bloodstream. In fact, the med-bay has been next to useless for the entire show until Snart's hand. Then suddenly it's full of futuristic modern miracles because it had a prior DNA sample on file?

Sovereign Court

Shadowborn wrote:
The hand regeneration was worse considering the med-bay's track record thus far. Couldn't save the professor, who was shot using what the med-bay should consider contemporary technology. Couldn't save Hawkgirl from the bits of Savage's dagger floating around in her bloodstream. In fact, the med-bay has been next to useless for the entire show until Snart's hand. Then suddenly it's full of futuristic modern miracles because it had a prior DNA sample on file?

It's a good enough handwave.


Heh. Hand wave.


Hama wrote:
Let's see. Human flesh, fraction of a second. Pipe, several seconds. And he was pretty short on time at the moment.

Ehhhh... Captain Cold's gun is infamous for freezing metal like nothing. Bank vaults, cars, whatever. it's supposed to be this whole 'absolute zero' temperature and not a simple 'ice beam'

I'm also not entirely certain about the 'short on time,' bit. He was left alone in the ship, not like there was a bomb or something going counting down. He didn't know HOW the battle was going, or if Cronos/mick had even met the team...

Going right for his hand seemed very questionable... and VERY self-sacrificing... when prior to that Cold is barely shown as 'kinda self-sacrificing'...

NOW... if he had taken 2-3 seconds and blasted the pipe, then realized it was a space pipe with space insulation or soemthin... THEN went for the hand as a last resort... I would have been fine with that.

Just seemed a bad idea to go RIGHT for the hand.

Sovereign Court

Sundakan wrote:
Heh. Hand wave.

Yeah, I'm a bad, bad man.


Ugh. They could have cast a piece of dry toast as Jonah Hex and that episode would have been no less interesting.

Liberty's Edge

Tonight's episode:
Kendra might take the cake for queen of idiotball.


Shadowborn wrote:
Ugh. They could have cast a piece of dry toast as Jonah Hex and that episode would have been no less interesting.

I have a friend who was a huge fan of Jonah Hex... I personally never saw the appeal myself.

However, I agree... that was a REALLY boring Hex there. How bad do you have to make a character... that the stinker of a movie looks like the best live action version we'll see?!??!?

hehehe Man, I thought my friend was gonna get arrested somewhere when that hit theaters... MAN he was angry.

Dark Archive

I went to watch this this morning only to find out that my cable went out for about 10 minutes in the middle of the episode so...

Question:

How did Stein end up in the sickbay?


Answer:

Stein led the refugee/rebels to the waverider to escape from the giant green robot Ray went Rock'em Sock'em Robots on later in the episode. When the waverider was trying to escape from leviathan, it damaged the ship and Stein wound up with a jagged piece of shrapnel in his abdomen.


Somebody should explain to Kendra that this is over a hundred years in the future.

Spoiler:
That's not even your next Carter!


Spoiler:

Yeah, dude's immortal. His mind is gone? Kill him. Presumably that Kendra is already dead. So he and she will reincarnate and be good to go.


Spoiler:
Well, killing Savage ends the line of reincarnation, or that's their working theory. But there are like a dozen Carters between this one and the next one after the one that just died! She'll be dead before they get to him anyway!

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Man, Ray should get kicked off the team if he can't control his emotions. It's sad that Rory and Sara are in more control than Ray.

Spoiler:
Despite the Time Masters apparently working with Vandal Savage, the comment about Rip not being able to look at the long view of history still makes me think that this is all part of their plan, but that Rip just needs to let Vandal do a bit more before being allowed to take him down, and when he figures it out, he'll finally be ready to be a real Time Master.

Liberty's Edge

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Spoiler:
The idiotball is impressively strong with Ray and Kendra. They belong together.


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Spoiler:

Yea, I hope Kendra dies so she can reincarnate as a smarter version. Ray should just die too. I feel like the CW writers like making characters likable only to make them wholly insufferable later.


Did the writers forget that Spaceballs is a spoof movie, and that lines from it aren't really the way things are supposed to work, no matter how funny they are?


Regarding the writers...:

Terrible. I just keep watching the show, but the only enjoyment I get is talking after the fact about how bad the writing is. It's just such a shame--the premise is cool, the characters are cool, the writing is god awful.

Examples from last episode:

1) "We can't kill Savage because he 'locked Carter's mind' and is the only one who can fix him." Ridiculous premise. If you could push a button and give Carter his mind back for 10 seconds, what would he say? "Are you crazy, who gives a crap about me? Go bash Savage's skull in now".

2) Ok, whatever, we aren't going to kill Savage because he can "fix Carter" (though why would he tell them how to fix Carter if that's the only thing keeping him alive?). Predictably, Ray gets moronically talked into freeing Savage. He deserves to be thrown out the airlock.

3) How in the hell did Savage get a laser gun? After knocking out Ray and walking 50 feet to free Carter, he somehow finds a laser gun? Is there an armory on the ship? If there IS an armory on the ship, can someone please give Sarah a friggin' gun?

4) Did you notice how every time Snart and Rory fire their guns, the camera was pointed towards them, not away from them to reveal where their shots fell? That's because Savage had to "win" against them. Because when the dude is walking towards them in a hallway with no cover, how in the hell does Snart miss? He wouldn't, but he has to because if he hit, Vandal would have to sit there and just be screwed.

5) The worst writing of all--when Carter predictably "wakes up" and saves Kendra, allowing them to win the fight, they STILL BRING HIM TO THE TIME MASTERS. Why??????? The only reason you kept him alive was because of Carter. Carter's mind is returned, why not immediately kill him?

So bad. And I didn't even mention how bad it was that (apparently) Martin will die if separated from Jax, yet he remains on the ship instead of traveling back home with Jax.


phantom1592 wrote:
Marik Whiterose wrote:

The problem is that in going back to the previous day to kill Savage is that you create a paradox as well.

If you fail to kill Savage on Tuesday and you decide to go back and get him on Monday and you're successful, then there was no reason to go to Tuesday in the first place because Savage was already dead. So if you didn't go to Tuesday in the first place, then there was no reason to go to Monday to follow up.
You would have to go to Wednesday, at which point Savage is aware of you and may have taken precautions.

If they kill Vandal Savage ANY time before 2166... Rip will have never lost his family and needed to collect the team to kill Vandal Savage...

The whole show concept is based on that paradox... they really don't seem to mind.

hmmm....

you know maybe that's the point.

Rip knows that to achieve his goal he has to cause a massive self-erasing Paradox. To do that and get away with it maybe he has to push space and time to the breaking point by having his team muck things up in every possible way up and down the timeline, that the universe will let it happen just to sort things out


Oh, and I forgot...:

Was there any explanation how Rip took a close-range laser blast to the back and was literally unhurt?


I still don't get how the Time Masters can work with a guy like Savage. But then again this entire season has been pretty bad in my mind, writing wise.


Thomas Seitz wrote:
I still don't get how the Time Masters can work with a guy like Savage. But then again this entire season has been pretty bad in my mind, writing wise.

They pretty much state that they are 'big picture' kind of people. They have rules about zero emotional ties to others... so really, whatever Savage does to people out in the world... really doesn't bother them as long as the clocks keep ticking. Same reason that they don't go after Hitler or Lex luthor... Whatever they do is just a drop in the bucket and not worth the time interference.

Savage released that plague claiming that the world couldn't sustain so many people... Simple thing you'd want to change... but what if he was RIGHT?? What would the world be like in the future if those excess people WEREN'T killed off?

That's the kind of decisions that time travelers are supposed to make.

Honestly, Rip shot himself in the foot when it was admitted that HE was responsible for Savage figuring out Time Travel. None of that would have happened without him going back in the first place. He's caught in a loop, and all the damage that Savage did because of it, is pretty much HIS fault. Regardless of the punishment that Vandal had earned... Rip would be RIGHT there too..

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this season ends with Rip getting executed or removed from time and THAT saves... at least his wife's life, and probably at least slows Savage's power base.

The carter thing annoyed me... I can't understand why the moment Kendra said that Carter's mind was locked... that Rip didn't shoot him in the face, restarting his life and get back to killing Savage. Knowing people are 'immortal' really frees up the morality. Now we have 2016 Kendra and 2166 Carter? That should lead to some weirdness... at least I HOPE it does. That's not the kind of thing that should be swept under the rug.


No idea Phantom, but I'm sure we'll find some kind of timey-whimey thingie happening.

If only because the Doctor ordered it.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Why doesn't Ray wear his super suit all the time?

At least when he's fighting an immortal martial artist.

Didn't he invent that suit? Isn't he some kind of doctor? Isn't he supposed to be smart?

Also, why do people care so much about the timeline being "pure?" That literally makes no sense to me. Wasn't Biff the hero of Back To The Future 2?

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