Not maximizing your primary ability?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I've noticed whenever I see character builds that very very few people don't go as far as possible to max their primary ability score. Starting with less than an 18 at level 1 seems almost unheard of, even if it means dumping multiple stats to 7 or 8. I find even I myself do this to an extent.

But lately I've found myself wanting to play races less 'suited' to the class. An Elven Paladin for example, or a Dwarf Wizard. Usually this mean I end up with 16 in my primary score, but also feel like I have a more well balanced ability score array in the end.

I mean most of the time characters also go for 14 CON, so once you have your primary at 18 and your CON at 14 you have so little to make your ability scores unique and interesting.

This is all considering point buy of course.

How do you guys feel about less optimized ability score arrays?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What works.... works.

I don't mind having a fighter who can't lift a battleship. If I'm going Lore Warden Roy Greenhilt for instance, I might not totally max out the strength score.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

16 is perfectly fine for a main stat, but you'll usually see 18s/20s on SAD characters such as casters. Martials can't afford to dump any physical stats though.


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I usually make characters who'd rather have several 14s than one 18.


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I think it's heavily dependent on the style of GM and the table. In some tables, a Dwarf Sorcerer is quite playable, despite having a -2 Charisma (as long as you have enough to actually cast your spells, you're fine). At other tables, that's grossly unacceptable, and to be a Sorc you HAVE to play a race that gets at least +2 Charisma.

An aggressively optimised GM encourages opped players (because the enemies saves are high, you need every point of Save DC you can squeeze out), and an optimised table encourages optimised players (because if Player 2's Wizard is vastly better than yours, it makes a feel difference to the game). On the flip side, a GM who hits you hard in the dump stats encourages players to not dump them.

And of course in theorycrafting, you'll see it much more often. Your theoretical Wizard is never actually going to have to roll a Charisma check, after all, or be bothered by his 6 Cha. He's never going to meet a princess, or have to make a Perform (Dance) check, or have to solve delicate negotiations, or exist outside of a message board. So go ahead and boost that INT for some extra theory points.


If your 6 Cha Wizard is the choice for negotiator, that's a problem with party decision making, not character building.

If the entire party built Cha-dumped combat machines, then it was a pretty dumb idea to put anything important involving delicate negotiations in the campaign. (Ignoring certain Investigators and Inquisitors).


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Actually most people dont choose 18s because they are not worth the price unless you mean some casters. Of course you could have meant an 18 after racial adjustments but its not clear

Scarab Sages

My experience has been that parties are not built....they are assembled. Players each pretty much do their own thing, and you 'meet' each other at the first session.

I would love to see Teamwork feats in action, but that would take planning, something most players I know, just don't bother with.

So, each character has to have SOMETHING they can bring to the table, and most of the time it is their high stat ability.


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Distant Scholar wrote:
I usually make characters who'd rather have several 14s than one 18.

I can't think of a single character that truly benefits from this.

Assuming you mean something like:

Str: 14 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 10 Cha: 10

Or some such rather than:

Str: 16 (Which you bump to 18 with your racial) Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 12 Wis: 12 Cha: 7 (which I usually use for a basic Str based dude)

Or the like.


Rynjin wrote:
Distant Scholar wrote:
I usually make characters who'd rather have several 14s than one 18.

I can't think of a single character that truly benefits from this.

Assuming you mean something like:

Str: 14 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 10 Cha: 10

Or some such rather than:

Str: 16 (Which you bump to 18 with your racial) Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 12 Wis: 12 Cha: 7 (which I usually use for a basic Str based dude)

Or the like.

Well, the stats would most likely be 16/14/14/14/10/10 in this case after racials. Maybe they are worse or better off depending on race.

This is the spread I usually use on classes with a really important mental score along with melee (bards, inquisitors, alchemists, many forms of monks, etc.)

And actually, due to how the point buy works, even if you dump CHA completely (assuming you aren't a bard), you could not get anything more than a +2-+3 mod in int, or a +1 in any other score. So dumping it and making yourself a horrible outcast doesn't get you too much.

So this model works well on gish-y characters...which these boards feel are the only ones worth playing that aren't barbarians, apparently (cause spells tho'). Not that I am of that opinion, but eh.


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I think building to max stats causes players to loose some of the essence of roleplay. Some of the characters I have had the most fun playing had lower stats and sometimes a few well below average


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For martials I tend to prefer the 14,14,14,14,10,10 array, caster have an easier time buying 18s.

Also, just in case, being a one trick pony is not optimizing unless htat trick solve a wide variety of problems.

Liberty's Edge

It all depends on the class and build. For example one can play a Fighter with low Str. Just don't expect to carry heavy Armor and a shield. Or at the very least expect to be encumbered. A bard with a 16-18 Cha has better chance of his spells succeeding then one with a 10-12. Mind you it can be done. Just don't expect to be as effective as characters with higher primary stat.


lemeres wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Distant Scholar wrote:
I usually make characters who'd rather have several 14s than one 18.

I can't think of a single character that truly benefits from this.

Assuming you mean something like:

Str: 14 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 10 Cha: 10

Or some such rather than:

Str: 16 (Which you bump to 18 with your racial) Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 12 Wis: 12 Cha: 7 (which I usually use for a basic Str based dude)

Or the like.

Well, the stats would most likely be 16/14/14/14/10/10 in this case after racials. Maybe they are worse or better off depending on race.

This is the spread I usually use on classes with a really important mental score along with melee (bards, inquisitors, alchemists, many forms of monks, etc.)

And actually, due to how the point buy works, even if you dump CHA completely (assuming you aren't a bard), you could not get anything more than a +2-+3 mod in int, or a +1 in any other score. So dumping it and making yourself a horrible outcast doesn't get you too much.

So this model works well on gish-y characters...which these boards feel are the only ones worth playing that aren't barbarians, apparently (cause spells tho'). Not that I am of that opinion, but eh.

Cha has basically no use unless you use it to cast.

Even if you don't want to be a "social outcast". I often take Traits that let me use Int for Diplomacy or Intimidate even on characters with only 12 Int, and the Inquisitor can wholesale make the stat worthless.


Petty Alchemy wrote:
16 is perfectly fine for a main stat, but you'll usually see 18s/20s on SAD characters such as casters. Martials can't afford to dump any physical stats though.

I remember the days when the iconic cleric had a poor Dex mod and wore full plate to alleviate that...


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I can think of some melee casters who could get away with a higher Str or Dex than whatever their casting ability score is. The oracle I am playing right now began with a 16 Str and 15 Cha.


I hate dumping anything unless it's really thematic(*). And I am not sure that I COULD properly roleplay a Wizard having an Intelligence >18, so I built the Wizard I was planning for Rise of the Runelords (hasn't got into a PbP yet) on a 15 point buy and took Intelligence up to 16 before racial ability score adjustments, resulting in an 18 (high but not the maximum). I'd like for him not to be the stereotypical Charisma-dumped nerd Wizard, so in the General Build Notes (under Extended Crunch) I put the note that for a 20 point buy, I am open to putting the extra 5 points into another ability score, and I consider putting any more points into Intelligence to be inefficient (by the way point buy is defined, it is -- you get diminishing returns). I lean towards putting the extra points in Charisma, not only for Use Magic Device (more important to him than for most Wizards due to being a Thassilonian Specialist), but also so that other people will be less inclined to want to be rid of him (he has a rather serious curse that needs mitigation).

EDIT: (*)Now on the other hand, for the Mad Cowboy concept I have in mind for Carrion Crown (no character sheet yet), I will dump both Intelligence and Wisdom with relish, and look to some recent occupants of some of the higher offices in our land for inspiration . . . .


Rynjin wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Distant Scholar wrote:
I usually make characters who'd rather have several 14s than one 18.

I can't think of a single character that truly benefits from this.

Assuming you mean something like:

Str: 14 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 10 Cha: 10

Or some such rather than:

Str: 16 (Which you bump to 18 with your racial) Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 12 Wis: 12 Cha: 7 (which I usually use for a basic Str based dude)

Or the like.

Well, the stats would most likely be 16/14/14/14/10/10 in this case after racials. Maybe they are worse or better off depending on race.

This is the spread I usually use on classes with a really important mental score along with melee (bards, inquisitors, alchemists, many forms of monks, etc.)

And actually, due to how the point buy works, even if you dump CHA completely (assuming you aren't a bard), you could not get anything more than a +2-+3 mod in int, or a +1 in any other score. So dumping it and making yourself a horrible outcast doesn't get you too much.

So this model works well on gish-y characters...which these boards feel are the only ones worth playing that aren't barbarians, apparently (cause spells tho'). Not that I am of that opinion, but eh.

Cha has basically no use unless you use it to cast.

Even if you don't want to be a "social outcast". I often take Traits that let me use Int for Diplomacy or Intimidate even on characters with only 12 Int, and the Inquisitor can wholesale make the stat worthless.

Still, at best, you are dumping a tertiary stat to add to a tertiary stat (hell, both may be quaternary in this scenario). You will not be able to raise the preracials of a gish more than 1 point, which has very limited uses, and doesn't really get you from from the '4 14's' paradigm.

A gish will not get an 18 without either lowering one of his physical stats, lowering his casting stat, or dumping both of his other two stats (which can carry a lot of problems depending on the class; for bard, that would remove a lot of their ability to skill monkey, and it would lower their will saves)


Oh for the time when it was unheard of for characters to have stats over 18. Wxcept for str and then it was just 18 with 100 grades


lemeres wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Distant Scholar wrote:
I usually make characters who'd rather have several 14s than one 18.

I can't think of a single character that truly benefits from this.

Assuming you mean something like:

Str: 14 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 10 Cha: 10

Or some such rather than:

Str: 16 (Which you bump to 18 with your racial) Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 12 Wis: 12 Cha: 7 (which I usually use for a basic Str based dude)

Or the like.

Well, the stats would most likely be 16/14/14/14/10/10 in this case after racials. Maybe they are worse or better off depending on race.

This is the spread I usually use on classes with a really important mental score along with melee (bards, inquisitors, alchemists, many forms of monks, etc.)

And actually, due to how the point buy works, even if you dump CHA completely (assuming you aren't a bard), you could not get anything more than a +2-+3 mod in int, or a +1 in any other score. So dumping it and making yourself a horrible outcast doesn't get you too much.

So this model works well on gish-y characters...which these boards feel are the only ones worth playing that aren't barbarians, apparently (cause spells tho'). Not that I am of that opinion, but eh.

Cha has basically no use unless you use it to cast.

Even if you don't want to be a "social outcast". I often take Traits that let me use Int for Diplomacy or Intimidate even on characters with only 12 Int, and the Inquisitor can wholesale make the stat worthless.

Still, at best, you are dumping a tertiary stat to add to a tertiary stat (hell, both may be quaternary in this scenario). You will not be able to raise the preracials of a gish more than 1 point, which has very limited uses, and doesn't really get you from from the '4 14's' paradigm.

A gish will not get an 18 without either lowering one of his physical stats, lowering his casting stat, or dumping both of his other two stats (which can carry a lot of...

A tertiary stat that adds to your skills, and everybody wants more skills.

A gish character can still benefit from dumping on a 20 PB. Hell, most Gish characters are Dex based.

Str: 12 Dex: 16 Con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 12 Cha: 7

Is more beneficial to a Dex based dudebro than having a bit more Cha. +1 Will and Perception, a higher carrying capacity and +1 damage at early levels versus a (maybe) -2 to some social skills.


I often mke builds That start out with High numbers in one ir two stats and dump others. But when i play it is often more balanced, i know that stats like 8 14 12 14 14 14 in a 20 point buy is les than great ( i upped con and wis with versatile human) but that is what my shaman have at the moment.
I can't seem to help it i like heroes that Can be a little bit of every thing even if that is less amazing in PF. But at level 12 str 25 or 27 is no Big deal and int 14 is better than int 10 on a barbarian at least if i want him to be a cunning conan rip of.


lemeres wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Distant Scholar wrote:
I usually make characters who'd rather have several 14s than one 18.

I can't think of a single character that truly benefits from this.

Assuming you mean something like:
U
Str: 14 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 10 Cha: 10

Or some such rather than:

Str: 16 (Which you bump to 18 with your racial) Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 12 Wis: 12 Cha: 7 (which I usually use for a basic Str based dude)

Or the like.

Well, the stats would most likely be 16/14/14/14/10/10 in this case after racials. Maybe they are worse or better off depending on race.

This is the spread I usually use on classes with a really important mental score along with melee (bards, inquisitors, alchemists, many forms of monks, etc.)

And actually, due to how the point buy works, even if you dump CHA completely (assuming you aren't a bard), you could not get anything more than a +2-+3 mod in int, or a +1 in any other score. So dumping it and making yourself a horrible outcast doesn't get you too much.

So this model works well on gish-y characters...which these boards feel are the only ones worth playing that aren't barbarians, apparently (cause spells tho'). Not that I am of that opinion, but eh.

Slayers are not gishy and they seem to be likrd. Most classes also have spells or some form of magic. With that being said its not about magic but about options that matter outside of corner cases.


Rynjin wrote:
Distant Scholar wrote:
I usually make characters who'd rather have several 14s than one 18.
I can't think of a single character that truly benefits from this.

Do you mean "character" as in concept, or as in game mechanics?

My current (3.5) character has 10 Int and 8 Cha. I hate it. His concept says he should have 8 Int and 12 Cha, but because of how the game mechanics work, I couldn't manage that.


Distant Scholar wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Distant Scholar wrote:
I usually make characters who'd rather have several 14s than one 18.
I can't think of a single character that truly benefits from this.

Do you mean "character" as in concept, or as in game mechanics?

My current (3.5) character has 10 Int and 8 Cha. I hate it. His concept says he should have 8 Int and 12 Cha, but because of how the game mechanics work, I couldn't manage that.

What stopped you?


TarkXT wrote:
Distant Scholar wrote:
My current (3.5) character has 10 Int and 8 Cha. I hate it. His concept says he should have 8 Int and 12 Cha, but because of how the game mechanics work, I couldn't manage that.
What stopped you?

Skill points, mostly. Trying to qualify for Elocater with 1 skill point per level is pretty tricky.

Edit: OK, not strictly qualifying for the class; the skill qualifications are milder than I remembered. But having Concentration be the only skill on my character just wasn't right.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Maximizing Strength for warrior types and casting attribute for spellslingers gives more than linear benefit.

Take the easy example of the fighter, 16 vs. 20 strength assuming a two-handed weapon gives +2 to hit, +3 damage and more than enough strength to carry the heaviest armor.

The payoff for the caster is greater although it takes a little longer to get full benefit. At 20 you get a bonus 1st level spell in addition to all your spell DCs being that much higher. At higher levels you are getting 4th and 5th level bonus spells that someone with a lower attribute doesn't get.

That said, I generally like to spread my attributes out more. I don't like dumping stats and rarely do so.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

This is not a binary decision, but rather a graded scale (assuming point buy; rolling is a separate beast). The diminishing returns to start with an 18 (20 with racial bonus) using point buy means that many characters are better off with a 16 (18 with racial bonus) and being more "well-rounded."

As a typical (20 Point-Buy) example, there is a significant difference between how a 20 Str (17), 13 Dex (3), 14 Con(5), 7 Int(-4), 13 Wis(3), 7 Cha(-4) half-orc barbarian plays and an 18 Str (10), 14 Dex (5), 14 Con (5), 12 Int (2), 12 Wis (2), 7 Cha (-4) half-orc barbarian. The 20 Str barbarian has +1 on melee attack rolls and damage, but the 18 Str barbarian has +1 on AC and ranged attack rolls, plus three extra Skill Ranks. Basically, the 20 Str barbarian is the stereo-typical "one-trick pony" (hit hard with a two-handed melee weapon) with hardly any versatility (2 Skill Ranks per level, probably one taken up with Intimidate). The 18 Str barbarian, on the other hand is only slightly less effective in melee, but is more effective outside of it, as well.

On the other hand, primary arcane casters who focus almost entirely on spells do gain a bigger benefit from a 20 over an 18 in their casting stat at 1st level (+1 on save DCs and a second bonus 1st-level spell slot). A stereo-typical "hide in the back" 8 Str (-2), 14 Dex (5; or 2 elf), 12 Con (2; or 5 elf), 20 Int (17), 10 Wis, 8 Cha (-2) elf, half-elf, half-orc, or human witch/wizard (or 10 Int, 8 Wis, 20 Cha for a gnome (6 Str, 14 Con), half-elf, half-orc, halfling (6 Str, 16 Dex), or human sorcerer) is still pretty versatile.

Liberty's Edge

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IME, for most characters a 16 in your primary score is necessary, an 18 is desirable, and unless you're rolling for stats a 20 is completely unnecessary and costs more than it gains you.

Now, primary spellcasters who actually rely on their spell save DCs (so Witches and Wizards, but not most Clerics, for example) are an exception to the above and almost need an 18, while really desiring a 20.

As for stat-dumping, it makes flatly more effective characters, and people who don't do it are thus mechanically penalized. If you want to discourage stat-dumping, make rules to do so, don't just say it's bad.

For example, I give 25 point-buy, but with a cap of 16 and a minimum of 8 before racial mods, and only one stat below 10 (again, before racial mods). This encourages a bit more broad-based stats, helping MAD characters a bit and restraining SAD ones similarly. It allows a little stat dumping, but not a whole lot (one stat to 8), and I allow characters to use either Cha or Wis on Will saves which helps keep any one stat from getting dumped too much. I highly recommend something similar for people looking to actually help solve this problem.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
As for stat-dumping, it makes flatly more effective characters, and people who don't do it are thus mechanically penalized.

The people who do it are also mechanically penalized. It is a matter of where those penalties appear.

Having a 7 Charisma (-2 modifier) may be alright for many warriors, but don't expect NPCs to listen very much if you try to solve things with diplomacy. The halfling bard is likely more intimidating than you.

Having a 7 Strength puts a big limit on how much you can carry. You can get around this with a Pack Mule assuming you have Handle Animal skill. You better be tracking your encumbrance. Your CMD is going to be horrible, especially if you are an arcanist, sorcerer, witch or wizard. You also better watch out for any swim or climb checks.

Having a 7 Int means you probably only get 1 skill rank (2 if human) per level. How much this hurts depends on what sort of tasks you generally have to perform on an adventure.

Wis/Con/Dex are used for saving throws. There the primary mechanical penalties are obvious.

Dark Archive

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I'm a big fan of the 16 16 12 12 10 7 and 16 14 14 12 12 7 arrays for 20PB. Yeah, you end up with one low stat, but if that stat is Charisma*, you can negate the penalty by dropping some ranks into the social skills, through traits, or simply through class features.

*:
Let's be honest, it's gonna be Charisma. Poor Charisma has very little worth outside of social skills if your class isn't specifically keyed to it, like a Paladin or Sorcerer or w/e.


It totally depend on what class and what I can to do.
Support character, especially buffing/healing clerics and bards rocks having a bunch of non-maxed out stats primary stats.14 intelligence on these guys is 2 more skill-points and help with knowledge checks, plus it open interesting feat chain opportunities via combat expertise.

Also you can build very interesting synergies with lot of medium stats, a character with 14-16-10-14-12-8 can via feat build into something that is versatile and able to dish some good dame via the Focused Shot feat. That way your character stay relevant both in combat and outside of it!

Sure you will never out-damage an evocation specialist wizard with 20 INT or a barbarian with 24 STR while raging. But you are at least able to shoot a goblin or two in a fight.


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There is no such things as "good damage via Focused Shot" and there's nothing versatile about it.

Cha's mechanical penalties are negligible, if even extant. I pointed out exactly how you can easily bypass the penalties as any class.


I'm about to stop DMing and start playing again, I'm entering the party as a wizard... with a base of 17 INT!!! I know, I know, kill me right now, the wizard will suck...
But you won't be able to kill my wizard, with the leftover points I got a base of 16 CON, with a +2 to it, toughness and FCB I'm getting and avg of 9,5 hp/lvl, so he's probably going to have the highest, or at least next to highest hp in the party (higher than the paladin, that's for sure).
He'll only be 1 INT modifier behind at levels 1-3, 8-11, 16-19. At 4-7, 12-15, 20 he'll be the same as any other wizard with way more hp, which is needed since you can avoid damage, even though people love to claim that wizards shouldn't put them selves out, it's unavoidable in some occasions. In the long run, I think it's acually better to not always go full out 18 from the start.


Base of 17 before racial, or after? If before, I'd actually suggest you drop it a bit. You don't really NEED 20 Int at 1st level.

If you mean base 15, then I don't see why you wouldn't pump it to 16 (18 post-racial).

Str: 10 Con: 16 Dex: 12 Int: 16 Wis: 12 Cha: 7 works well. as opposed to what is probably 10 16 14 15 12 7

Though that +1 HP from having a 16 Con is negligible, really. Having +1 spell DC and higher level spells per day will make sure you contribute more instead of just surviving slightly better. If at all.


I'm doing a STR7, DEX14, CON16, INT17, WIS10, CHA7. I'm already in a handy haversack so carrying won't bother me (I'm coming in to a level7 party). I could lower DEX for some WIS, don't really need DEX as my AC won't cut it anyway and I'm not relying on hitting stuff either.
EDIT: Only reson I would really need either are for saves, as my Will already is the better one I figure I'll bump my Reflex by some DEX.

Liberty's Edge

BretI wrote:
The people who do it are also mechanically penalized. It is a matter of where those penalties appear.

For good dump stats chosen properly? No, not really.

BretI wrote:
Having a 7 Charisma (-2 modifier) may be alright for many warriors, but don't expect NPCs to listen very much if you try to solve things with diplomacy. The halfling bard is likely more intimidating than you.

There are several Traits and Class Features that can make such things Wis or Int based, and even if you lack those, this is only relevant if you were gonna be any good at all at those skills anyway. The difference between a +0 and a -2 is pretty meaningless most of the time, especially if there's someone in the party with a +15.

BretI wrote:
Having a 7 Strength puts a big limit on how much you can carry. You can get around this with a Pack Mule assuming you have Handle Animal skill. You better be tracking your encumbrance. Your CMD is going to be horrible, especially if you are an arcanist, sorcerer, witch or wizard. You also better watch out for any swim or climb checks.

Meh. Swim and Climb will be fine if they're Class skills, and if they aren't, you're probably a Class that gets Fly and Spider Climb and Touch of the Sea and all that sort of thing. Ant Haul and Handy Haversacks make encumbrance a very transient problem as well.

CMD is a bigger issue...but full casters are gonna suck so badly at that anyway that another -2 isn't likely to make much difference.

BretI wrote:
Having a 7 Int means you probably only get 1 skill rank (2 if human) per level. How much this hurts depends on what sort of tasks you generally have to perform on an adventure.

Int is generally a terrible dump stat...if you care about skills. If you're playing a Dwarf Fighter and only gonna have two anyway...dropping that to 1 hurts thematically, but probably not mechanically in any meaningful way.

BretI wrote:
Wis/Con/Dex are used for saving throws. There the primary mechanical penalties are obvious.

Con, you're right (because of hit points), and Dex usually is (because of AC, though a level of Oracle can change that) but Wis has some potential if you're a Class with a Good Save in that (or some ability to add large amounts to it). I can make a starting Bard with Wis 7 and a +3 Will Save pretty casually as a Half-Orc or Half-Elf (or as a human if you grab Iron Will), or an kind of Paladin at all with Wis 7 and a +4 Will Save at second level (+7 if using the tricks mentioned with Bard).


Rub-Eta wrote:

I'm doing a STR7, DEX14, CON16, INT17, WIS10, CHA7. I'm already in a handy haversack so carrying won't bother me (I'm coming in to a level7 party). I could lower DEX for some WIS, don't really need DEX as my AC won't cut it anyway and I'm not relying on hitting stuff either.

EDIT: Only reson I would really need either are for saves, as my Will already is the better one I figure I'll bump my Reflex by some DEX.

This looks like a wizard out of the guides, to me.

Sczarni

My characters usually vary a lot in stats, but I usually don't attempt to reach 18 in single stat unless it's fairly easily achievable and fits my idea of character. Personally, having all good stats is my preferred way of play since I tend to play my PC's as smart, talkative and effective characters.


Cap. Darling wrote:
Rub-Eta wrote:

I'm doing a STR7, DEX14, CON16, INT17, WIS10, CHA7. I'm already in a handy haversack so carrying won't bother me (I'm coming in to a level7 party). I could lower DEX for some WIS, don't really need DEX as my AC won't cut it anyway and I'm not relying on hitting stuff either.

EDIT: Only reson I would really need either are for saves, as my Will already is the better one I figure I'll bump my Reflex by some DEX.
This looks like a wizard out of the guides, to me.

Wizards in the guides would probably have Int higher and maybe Dex higher and Con lower, although it depends on race (I have literally no clue what race he is using, unless he is rolling or using a non-standard point buy). Don't forget that he is starting at level 7 so he probably has a 16 starting Int or 15 starting Con and opted for +1 hp/fort save over boosting most of his class features.

Liberty's Edge

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Malag wrote:
My characters usually vary a lot in stats, but I usually don't attempt to reach 18 in single stat unless it's fairly easily achievable and fits my idea of character. Personally, having all good stats is my preferred way of play since I tend to play my PC's as smart, talkative and effective characters.

If we're talking personal preferences, I feel similarly about being smart, charming, and effective. That doesn't necessarily mean avoiding dump stats, though. In fact, the 'effective' part of that designation often necessitates some stat-dumping to work in any game where you aren't rolling for stats (and I hate rolling for stats).

In 20 point-buy, one dump stat often allows you to be good at everything else (18, 14, 14, 12, 12, 7 or 16, 16, 14, 14 12, 12, 7, or even 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 7 or 18, 16, 14, 12, 12, 5 if the racial stat mods are good)...and that's often exactly what I'm looking for, so if I can find a way to mitigate the effects of the low stat I go with it.

For example, I'm a big fan of Investigators with Empiricist and Student of Philosophy to allow Int-based social and perception stuff and Conversion Inquisition to allow Wis-based social things (though not on the same character). Both allow dumping Cha, without any damage to the ability to talk (and thus, for everything but Cha damage).

As another example, my current favorite Barbarian build has Dex 7, Cha 16, and his first level in Oracle of Lore (he goes straight Barbarian thereafter), and Sidestep Secret to ignore his low Dex for almost everything, plus Focused Trance to win at Knowledges outside of combat (and maxed out social skills to rock in that arena as well).

For a third example, Bards and low Wisdom seem to go together excellently thematically, and as of level 2, effects precisely two things: Perception, and Will Save. And since even with the penalty, I can manage a +3-4 on both by that point...that'll do.

And as a final example, finesse builds can often dump Str and be fine, as can full casters (though I almost never play the latter).

So...as this whole post indicates, the whole point-buy system really encourages dump-stats in order to be competent at your primary area, and especially if you want to be good at other areas, too. There's really no way to make non-dumping characters the equal of those who dump without either rules changes (as I suggest above), or rolling for stats (which only increases inter-character disparity and is thus the opposite of help).


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I have never been the type of player to do dump stats just to maximize a "key" attribute. Then again, I don't optimize my characters with what many would see as feat ideal combos/builds, focusing instead on playing organic characters with feat selections that feel right at the time. Makes for some interesting builds. That said, I've seen players max everything out. It is all dependent on what you feel is going to give you the most fun from gaming.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

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I find it interesting that many people play with Charisma having no intrinsic effects. Other ability scores have times where you are just making an ability check - bashing down a door, holding your breath, working on a riddle. Symmetry says to me that there are times when a Charisma check is called for, when none of the Cha-based skills apply. In those times all the traits and skill ranks won't help you, any more than 7 Str person gets any better at door bashing by having ranks in Climb and Swim.

An example of such a check in my game is a first impression made before anyone talks, especially if the person being evaluated isn't aware they are being observed. Also NPCs who have just met the party tend to assume the highest Cha person is the leader - generally no mechanical consequences there, just roleplaying stuff.

Liberty's Edge

The thing is depending on the class it's not hard to optimize. My first character using PF was a Bard and somehow with the right feat choices and without using a class design guide. I had made a optimized Bard. Just taking the bread and butter feats for a Fighter according to some on this board is making your character optimized. The system as is does kind of reward you for taking certain choices.

Players should be allowed to take low stats. As long as they are willing to accept the consequences of doing so. Take a low Cha for a Bard I don't want to hear that your spells are not as effective as the other player with a higher stat.


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ryric wrote:
I find it interesting that many people play with Charisma having no intrinsic effects. Other ability scores have times where you are just making an ability check - bashing down a door, holding your breath, working on a riddle. Symmetry says to me that there are times when a Charisma check is called for...

I routinely play with raw ability checks.

Str for bashing down doors, forcing things open and the like.
Dex to catch something quickly, react suddenly, that sort of thing.
Con for fatigue, breath holding, that sort of thing.
Int to come up with an idea or intuit.
Wis to put together facts you already possess or remember something.
Cha to create a good (or bad) first impression, attract someone's attention, that sort of thing.

Of course, we also use the full stat (so a Dex check uses your full 16, not just the +3), which creates a real difference between the high stat and low stat characters. It also creates some incentive to have odd stats - there is, periodically, a difference between having 12 Wis and 13 Wis, not just a speedbump on the way to 14 Wis.

If people are interested in this sort of thing, we've found knocking up the basic DCs by 10 works as a quick and easy fix.

A DC15 strength door, for example, needs an 11+ from the 18/+4 Str Barbarian, and a 17+ from the 7 Str Wizard. With the increased DCs, it becomes a DC25 door. Actually a little easier on the Barbarian, who now rolls at +18 and needs a 7+ to do it, while the Wizard now needs an 18+ roll. At a DC30 door, the Barbarian needs 12+, and it's simply impossible for the Wizard to bash it down.

It tends to encourage players to not dump their stats, or at least not dump them severely. But it's a good fit for my table, and may not be for yours - more optimised groups won't get on well with this sort of thing, because it robs a lot of points from higher abilities in favour of rounding the characters better.


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ryric wrote:
I find it interesting that many people play with Charisma having no intrinsic effects. Other ability scores have times where you are just making an ability check - bashing down a door, holding your breath, working on a riddle. Symmetry says to me that there are times when a Charisma check is called for, when none of the Cha-based skills apply. In those times all the traits and skill ranks won't help you, any more than 7 Str person gets any better at door bashing by having ranks in Climb and Swim.

Symmetry might say so but the game doesn't.

Quote:
An example of such a check in my game is a first impression made before anyone talks, especially if the person being evaluated isn't aware they are being observed. Also NPCs who have just met the party tend to assume the highest Cha person is the leader - generally no mechanical consequences there, just roleplaying stuff.

I've always questioned the logistics behind this sort of house rule. It's like setting the DC for a Swim check higher or a person with low Strength, or making an Acrobatics DC higher for someone with low Dex, or making a Knowledge DC harder for someone with low Int.

The game is already accounting for these things.


ryric wrote:

I find it interesting that many people play with Charisma having no intrinsic effects. Other ability scores have times where you are just making an ability check - bashing down a door, holding your breath, working on a riddle. Symmetry says to me that there are times when a Charisma check is called for, when none of the Cha-based skills apply. In those times all the traits and skill ranks won't help you, any more than 7 Str person gets any better at door bashing by having ranks in Climb and Swim.

An example of such a check in my game is a first impression made before anyone talks, especially if the person being evaluated isn't aware they are being observed. Also NPCs who have just met the party tend to assume the highest Cha person is the leader - generally no mechanical consequences there, just roleplaying stuff.

Because it's just making up additional rules to try to force people to not dump charisma in most cases.

Some AP's do say that an NPC will be attracted to, or show favor to whoever has the highest charisma, but there is never really a punishment for not having a high charisma that is not built into the core rules such as not doing well on a diplomacy check.


Dumping stats always scares me. I've had the fortune of whenever I dump a stat, I always run across a critter that does damage to said stat...and this is in AP's!


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Ashiel wrote:
ryric wrote:
I find it interesting that many people play with Charisma having no intrinsic effects. Other ability scores have times where you are just making an ability check - bashing down a door, holding your breath, working on a riddle. Symmetry says to me that there are times when a Charisma check is called for, when none of the Cha-based skills apply. In those times all the traits and skill ranks won't help you, any more than 7 Str person gets any better at door bashing by having ranks in Climb and Swim.

Symmetry might say so but the game doesn't.

Quote:
An example of such a check in my game is a first impression made before anyone talks, especially if the person being evaluated isn't aware they are being observed. Also NPCs who have just met the party tend to assume the highest Cha person is the leader - generally no mechanical consequences there, just roleplaying stuff.

I've always questioned the logistics behind this sort of house rule. It's like setting the DC for a Swim check higher or a person with low Strength, or making an Acrobatics DC higher for someone with low Dex, or making a Knowledge DC harder for someone with low Int.

The game is already accounting for these things.

I think it is more like making a dex check to not fall on my face while I am walking(a mundane activity). If I am not engaging anyone I should not need a charisma check, just like I should not need a dex check unless I am doing something that requires dex. Some GM's try to make business owners charge you more for having a low charisma*, and while I realize Pathfinder is an abstraction that is poor service, and not really reasonable. Word of mouth still spreads around, and 1/6(assuming an even stat spread) of the population is likely to have a negative charisma check, and that is before you get into dwarves or other creatures with an inherent penalty.

*just an example

Actually for basic NPC's it is 1/3. Treating 1/3 of the population badly is not exactly a good idea.

PS: Just to be clear I agree with Ashiel. :)


Veldan Rath wrote:
Dumping stats always scares me. I've had the fortune of whenever I dump a stat, I always run across a critter that does damage to said stat...and this is in AP's!

Strength and constitution seemed to get attacked the most. Charisma is the least likely one to be attacked.


Spellcasters with touch of idiocy ruin my day when I dump CHR.

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