So I love stealth characters but they don't seem very PFS friendly and am looking for solutions.


Pathfinder Society

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While this is not a problem with pfs it is an issue that has always bothered me and it finally came up on the first stealth character I've played in ages. I am sneaky, sneaky people should excel in the dark, well it is to dark for me to see. :/ Other than being a race that has dark vision what are some early fixes this outside of giving myself away with a light source? (Fun fact this adventure the light didn't even permeate out more than five feat from each of us through the entire dungeon so this was an exceptional pain)

Next, to my experience no one will even indulge me to let me set up an ambush. That said there is virtually no openings to be stealthy that or my party ruins them so fast I can't even see them.

Lastly, my party will never let me scout ahead even in the smallest degree. This is when I assume I could coordinate most of my ambushes as this prevents my party from just stomping up. They all just start screaming MEAUAURGH DON'T SPLIT THE PARTY!!! Also I understand that yes splitting the party is bad, but I don't think like a 40ft gap is technically splitting the party since you are like right behind me. Plus I'm SNEAKING the whole point is to not be seen.

How can I address this. Even this character, on this run (slayer), and after he has been redone as he is still lvl 1 (probably a Sactified slayer), Neither are even full on stealth classes in fact calling the Santified Slayer even a slightly stealth based class is pushing it. If I am pure stealth all I am ever permitted to do is just be a really lousy back up fighter. I want to pull off swank as heck ambushes but my party without a doubt throws a hissy fit. Any ideas?

1/5

Consider, what will the rest of the table be doing while you are sneaking off and setting up your "swank as heck ambushes?" Twiddling their thumbs? Rooting for the bad guys? Playing another game?

There will be times when being sneaky will pay off but it won't be in every scenario and pushing it will simply annoy your table mates. And truly, never split the party.

4/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere

There really isn't a good solution for using Stealth when you don't have darkvision. You need to be able to see, but if you carry a light source, obviously the light source will be visible. Using cover is your best bet, and it's definitely your best bet in combat. Just remember: if a piece of cover is closer to you than it is to your target, you can ignore it as cover, and you can peek around corners and doorways to make ranged attacks.

Scouting is dangerous, let me tell you. If you fail your Stealth check, you will be entering an encounter on your lonesome, or worse (trust me, there are much worse options than just getting in a fight). However, if your party is freaking out over 40 feet, which is a distance at which the rest of the party will very easily hear that combat has started, and can run to your aid. The thing about Stealth is that you really have to be ridiculously good at it before it starts being an option that won't make the rest of the party grind their teeth.

"Swank as heck ambushes" aren't going to happen in PFS. It's just not how the format of the adventures works. You're not going to be able to set up an encounter against a group of enemies pretty much 97% of the time. Ninety-nine times out of a hundred, enemies will just be standing around waiting for Pathfinders to come over and punch them in the face. They won't be coming to you.

Honestly, I would recommend rebuilding your character to get darkvision. It will just make life a lot less stressful for everyone involved. If possible, also get the ability to use the Message spell somehow, or otherwise show that you will be able to communicate with the party from a distance.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Honestly, it depends on the party--if you have a regular group you play with, then it's something they can work it. If you're constantly playing with new tables of different people, explaining your schtick and getting folks to buy into it will be an uphill battle.

I have 12 characters. Only 1 ever invested in stealth. He's never used it to scout. Any all ambushes came from either sending an elemental ahead to scout (if it died, who cares?), sending someone slightly ahead of the party to scope doors with Gloves of Reconnaissance and keeping enemies alive and diplomicizing/intimidating them for more info about upcoming rooms.

While stealth is good for certain skill challenges or avoid encounters, I rarely see it used to bypass encounters or ambush baddies...although I suspect in may come back into vogue with Core campaign tactics.

Sovereign Court 5/5

To be fair there are a decent number of encounters across the PFS corpus of scenarios where the party is rewarded for using stealth. (where the reward is avoiding pre-buffed opposition)

Just because lots of people play PFS in a ROFLSTOMP mindset doesn't mean everyone has to.

For the OP: Character intros at the beginning of a PFS scenario are very important in the way that players can get a feel for each other. If you get the idea that you're at the table with "optimizers", consider yourself forewarned.


Sooooo am I better off just not using stealth? I mean it sounds to me like your saying I won't really have any chances to go be stealthy and there are a lot better ways to deal damage when in rounds than relying on sneak attack. :/


Also, yay I know of at least one optimizers in the group. GAH I just want a badass squad of sneaky people. with ways to cover the rest of party needs of course but if I had a whole squad of sneaky people. This is my dream.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Quote:


While this is not a problem with pfs it is an issue that has always bothered me and it finally came up on the first stealth character I've played in ages. I am sneaky, sneaky people should excel in the dark, well it is to dark for me to see.

This isn't a pfs problem, its pathfinder rules problem... and yes, you're hosed. If you want to make a scout you need darkvision. If your race doesn't provide it then your concept doesn't work until you can afford a potion of darkvision drinking habbit or goggles of the night. Sneaking around in what look like shadows to a human rogue is like trying to sneak up on the pitchers mound in riggly field with the lights on to everything that sees in the dark.... and thats every single creature on the face of golarion BUT humans and halflings

Quote:
:/ Other than being a race that has dark vision what are some early fixes this outside of giving myself away with a light source? (Fun fact this adventure the light didn't even permeate out more than five feat from each of us through the entire dungeon so this was an exceptional pain)

The author had some .. really weird ideas on how that was supposed to work.

Quote:
Next, to my experience no one will even indulge me to let me set up an ambush. That said there is virtually no openings to be stealthy that or my party ruins them so fast I can't even see them.

They're right.

When monsters sneak up on the party they know exactly where the party is, where the party is comming from, where to wait, where to hide, where to take cover and they hold still and let the party come at them.

When you try to sneak up on the monsters, you need cover/concealment.. which oddly enough the monsters aren't dumb enough to give you. Few creatures spend a lot of time in lighting conditions where they can't see. Your odds of being able to make a stealth roll to sneak at all are iffy. Your chances of success if you make a fair roll are ... ok, but not good enough to bet your life on. Your chances of making a fair roll though are pretty lousey. Half the monster manual has scent, blindsense, tremorsense, blindsight, or some other way of detecting you without a roll. You're going to walk into one of those monsters and be eaten.

Quote:
Lastly, my party will never let me scout ahead even in the smallest degree. This is when I assume I could coordinate most of my ambushes as this prevents my party from just stomping up. They all just start screaming MEAUAURGH DON'T SPLIT THE PARTY!!! Also I understand that yes splitting the party is bad, but I don't think like a 40ft gap is technically splitting the party since you are like right behind me. Plus I'm SNEAKING the whole point is to not be seen.

1) A 40 foot gap isn't letting you stealth really. Unless you want to shout to your party "HEY GUYS STOP) the party is going to move up to you in the surprise round. They're probably carrying a light source which gives them away at ranges a LOT further away that 40 feet. You can see someone with a torch comming on a dark night from MILES away and underground any light at all says "something blind and tastey is stumbling around down here"

2) You're going to be making a lot of opposed rolls, stealth and perception vs stealth and perception, talking about where you're moving, where you're trying to go, how fast you're moving, another stealth roll for distance etc... while the party twiddles its thumbs.

3) Even IF you do all that and don't get eaten by walking into an otyug you haven't gained anything. Unlike real life, when you pop out of the shadoes unexpectedly and stab someone they get to hit you back, and hit you back pretty hard.

Lets look at a more typical scenario where your party just walks meatshield first into the bad guys. The initiative order goes

Quicky McSneakstab

Boss

Fighter

Wizard

Mooks

Cleric

Now if you manage the HAAAALELUAHAH celestial event alignment described above and actually manage to get a surprise round most likely what happens is the order goes

Quicky McSneakstab with one attack

Quicky McSneakstab with a full attack

Boss- Spends the round pounding you

Fighter- spends the round moving

Wizard- spends the round moving

Mooks Spend the round pounding you

Cleric Spends the round moving up. They will probably spend next round having to heal or stabalize you.

Look what your ambush got you: one half a round of you acting , but in exchange it took a round of the actions of the entire rest of your party away. You'd have to be pretyy uber and your party pretty damned ineffective for that to be a good trade off in a game where action economy is everything.

Now imagine for a second you sneak up to the boss, get all crits and your sneak attacks all land on the number of the devil... now the climactic boss fight is over , and everyones just wasted the last half hour twiddling their thumbs. Yay.

Its a no win situation, just a lot of potential for loss.

Quote:
I want to pull off swank as heck ambushes but my party without a doubt throws a hissy fit. Any ideas?

Not calling their legitimate concerns a hissy fit would be a good start. Read the above, try to see it from their point of view.

The only solution i can think of is to make your characters together and make them all stealthy. This is hard in a home group, HELL in pfs.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

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Scouting has a place in Pathfinder Society Organized Play, but a player with a Stealth-oriented character should remember that this is a social game with a limited amount of time in which to complete the adventure.

What I mean by this is that you should be considerate of everyone else in the table regarding when you split off from the group and how much real time your scouting takes. For example, offering to peek in the windows of a building and resolving the investigation over the course of a few minutes rarely bothers anyone—after all, sharing the spotlight during a game is pretty natural. If you take 5 minutes, 10 minutes, or more, the other players (the players mind you, not their characters) have nothing to do other than wait around and hope you're done soon. That's when a lot of people start getting restless and irritable.

It's also possible to have other players veto your Stealth plans if you get a reputation for getting into trouble while sneaking ahead—especially if it requires the rest of the group having to struggle to extract you from the encounter.

As deusvult notes above, character introductions at the start of the game help a lot. Have a quick pitch ready regarding your preferred tactic, and be prepared to adapt it a little to accommodate everyone else's preferred tactics.

My hypothetical stealthy character introduction wrote:
Hey, today I'm playing Sneaky, the sneaky gnome. I have a lot of fun when Sneaky is able to sneak ahead, scout out suspicious places, and spring the occasional ambush, and he has the Stealth score to back it up. Not every encounter's going to fit that style, but I would really appreciate having a chance to show off his sneaking skills at some point today.

Scout responsibly.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Rei wrote:

... Using cover is your best bet, and it's definitely your best bet in combat. Just remember: if a piece of cover is closer to you than it is to your target, you can ignore it as cover, and you can peek around corners and doorways to make ranged attacks.

Just a quibble, but an important one:

Only low cover can be ignored in this way.

PRD wrote:
Low Obstacles and Cover: A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he's closer to the obstacle than his target.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jack of Nothing wrote:

While this is not a problem with pfs it is an issue that has always bothered me and it finally came up on the first stealth character I've played in ages. I am sneaky, sneaky people should excel in the dark, well it is to dark for me to see. :/ Other than being a race that has dark vision what are some early fixes this outside of giving myself away with a light source? (Fun fact this adventure the light didn't even permeate out more than five feat from each of us through the entire dungeon so this was an exceptional pain)

Next, to my experience no one will even indulge me to let me set up an ambush. That said there is virtually no openings to be stealthy that or my party ruins them so fast I can't even see them.

Lastly, my party will never let me scout ahead even in the smallest degree. This is when I assume I could coordinate most of my ambushes as this prevents my party from just stomping up. They all just start screaming MEAUAURGH DON'T SPLIT THE PARTY!!! Also I understand that yes splitting the party is bad, but I don't think like a 40ft gap is technically splitting the party since you are like right behind me. Plus I'm SNEAKING the whole point is to not be seen.

How can I address this. Even this character, on this run (slayer), and after he has been redone as he is still lvl 1 (probably a Sactified slayer), Neither are even full on stealth classes in fact calling the Santified Slayer even a slightly stealth based class is pushing it. If I am pure stealth all I am ever permitted to do is just be a really lousy back up fighter. I want to pull off swank as heck ambushes but my party without a doubt throws a hissy fit. Any ideas?

It sounds like you play with a regular group. Being a successful rogue, or a successful anything in PFS is a team effort, but especially for a rogue. Either have a talk with your group or play something else less team dependent. You'll still have problems if you don't all learn to work together, but you'll push them to later levels, when they become BIG problems.

Dark Archive 3/5

If you can manage to convince your entire group to take stealth synergy, the results could be hilarious


Ok Ok ok I got it I'm no where near stealthy enough to effectively pull anything off. So, if I do want to be a stealthy character here, what do i need to do to make use of being stealthy? At this point rather than keep picking apart my idiocy, as I do see I was in the wrong here, what are valid tactics for a lone stealth character in a party of everything else?


Also I don't think asking my party to make additions to their characters to work with my character is an option here.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jack of Nothing wrote:
Ok Ok ok I got it I'm no where near stealthy enough to effectively pull anything off. So, if I do want to be a stealthy character here, what do i need to do to make use of being stealthy? At this point rather than keep picking apart my idiocy, as I do see I was in the wrong here, what are valid tactics for a lone stealth character in a party of everything else?

No, you're not wrong, but losing the persecution attitude will get you big dividends if you want advice.

Dark Archive 3/5

As I mentioned one post above you, stealth synergy lets your entire party be just as stealthy as you, and if you take a class that lets your allies benefit from your teamwork feats (Cavalier for example) you can use it to get your entire team through certain problems, even if it is of limited usage. That way, instead of working against your party, you make your entire party better.

If not that, then lots of invisibility could work.


Oh btw the ridiculous kind of darkness that light didn't permeate through was the effect of an artifact affecting the structure. Just throwing that out there.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

You can invest in ways to make the whole party stealthy, but other than that, if your group even has one character with a seriously negative stealth modifier.. it might not be an option.

Of course it all starts with talking to your party, if they are unwilling to take the risks involved, there is frankly very little you can do. And even if you can sneak ahead, the chances of of successfully eliminating an enemy on your own are remote.

I would try not to be a "lone" stealth character, with spells like vanish you can be invisible at the start of combat and move into an advantageous position (flankying, being in place for a full attack), but your party really has to be on board, otherwise you might get hit by the occasional fireball.


Sorry wasn't trying to be persecutive as I was just trying be humorous as their reaction is rather lively and is quite sarcastic and borderlines on mocking sometimes but i suppose you all couldn't have known that. My apologies.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Jack of Nothing wrote:
Oh btw the ridiculous kind of darkness that light didn't permeate through was the effect of an artifact affecting the structure. Just throwing that out there.

Yeah, quite a number of us know what "thing" you are referring to, I have played and GMed it recently, and it is pretty annoying (and as the others mentioned, the level of darkvision in your party is quite relevant).

Please note , that that level and many other PFS legal scenarios take place on the same amount of area (a flip mat), thus any kind or battle (even with the range penalties for Perception checks) usually informs the whole level that the players have arrived.

Stealth only really works in those situations, where the whole group is at least supportive of the tactic.

Sczarni 2/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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I have used Stealth a few times, but mainly only to get into a better position for combat. Those combats usually went like this:

Everyone else: We delay until we hear the sounds of combat.
Me: I sneak over there. When I feel ready, I sneak attack charge.
Everyone else: Hark, was that the sound of combat we were delaying for? Attack!

My whole party had the ability to run in pretty quickly, so I didn't feel like I would be alone for much time. We'd also played enough that the party knew I could last a round on my own, and that I would only attack if I believed I had the opportunity to survive.

John Compton wrote:
Scout responsibly.

Darn right. In PFS, even when playing the sneakiest of sneaks, I'd never take table time to go on a scouting mission without the explicit permission of everyone at the table, GM included.


Ok how about this for starters, being a wayang, dark vision, small so bonus to stealth, plus a racial bonus to stealth, and the ability to turn invisible once per day for a number of rounds equal to my HD. Max of five rounds. This solves a number of problems and allows me to get a little bit of invisibility on my own even at low level. I think this is a good start. They get a plus to dex and int but a minus to wisdom. What would be a good class to go with? I'm looking at virtually any class that has stealth as a class skill and sneak attack. With archetypes there are a lot of options for having these so I'm open to suggestions.


I never wanted to scout far, just like a wait here let me take a peak into the next area, when I return we plan, what we do. Ready to charge in if you hear something go wrong kinda deal. I suppose that could take some time if I always did this but I only tried to do this if I really felt like we were walking into something.

4/5 5/55/55/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Everett

as far as Darrvision gos, you can take a level in Oracle (Dark Tapestry mystery-Pierce the veil revelation)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jack of Nothing wrote:
Ok how about this for starters, being a wayang, dark vision, small so bonus to stealth, plus a racial bonus to stealth, and the ability to turn invisible once per day for a number of rounds equal to my HD. Max of five rounds. This solves a number of problems and allows me to get a little bit of invisibility on my own even at low level. I think this is a good start. They get a plus to dex and int but a minus to wisdom. What would be a good class to go with? I'm looking at virtually any class that has stealth as a class skill and sneak attack. With archetypes there are a lot of options for having these so I'm open to suggestions.

No matter what you pile on, you need to get some modicum of cooperation from the rest of your party. And again, this isn't a rogue issue per say, the party that won't work together, shall definitely one day, die together.

Scarab Sages

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Organized Play does a good job, from what I've seen, of providing a diverse overall medley of challenges; combat, communication, wilderness survival, traps, puzzles that you the player must tackle thankyouverymuch, you name it. Different adventures will better suit different characters, and while not every adventure you play will have much, if anything, for stealthy sorts, there will be those that do, and when they come up, your party will be glad you're there.


Oh I know, I'm just trying to establish a better foundation for success. So I was also wondering what class you all would suggest so that I can require the least amount of support possible. Now I don't mean like, oh I don't need to work with my party or anything, but just getting some more tools that would help me be good at what I'm wanting to do without relying on what class my teammates are playing. Like the racial ability to go camo without the help of a wizard, getting useful tricks to help my trade and such.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Wait for the new blog coming out on stealth. It will be talking about some rules in the Giant Hunter's Handbook. Not sure if they will let it be legal, REALLY hoping they do, but you might be able to take cover behind others for hiding if they are larger than you.
Be the Wayang.

4/5 5/55/55/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis

When people are introducing their characters, ask any Arcane casters (wizards, sorcerers, etc) if they have the Message cantrip. If they do, ask them to prepare it in order to help you scout. This basically gives you a two-way radio with the mage. You can scout and be whispering back and forth with the group -- the whole table can be involved in your scouting.

You might want to think about taking a level in a class that gives this cantrip just so you can do it yourself. The other way to accomplish this is come in with a buddy as a pair of characters where the buddy has it. Caster level affects duration and range, but the range is Medium so it generally will not be a problem.

Make sure you are listening to the other people at the table, especially when there is discussion about which way to go. Do not try to lone-wolf the situation.

In my experience, outdoor scenarios tend to have more options for stealth than urban or underground ones. There are exceptions, but as a general rule this seems to work.

Accept that there will be times where (either because of scenario or group dynamics) you will not be able to use stealth. Make sure you have something else to offer the group.

Take a race with at least low-light vision, if not dark vision.

The best use of stealth is to go up, scout the location, and report back without getting into combat. As people have stated, starting combat on your own is dangerous. More than that, it is much more likely to cause hard feelings from some members in the group if you are always a half-round ahead of them in any combat.

Lastly, try to make your presentation as positive and inclusive as you can. You want to make sure you aren't doing anything that would cause other players to get bored.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Something to consider: Either Gloves of Reconnaissance or the Cleric domain (Exploration sub-domain, Door Sight) that gives a similar ability for a few uses.

That, and the invisibility trick that has been mentioned a few times, although that won't come into play/serious use until you can cast invisibility a few times.

4/5

From my experience, its a matter of players at your table and how the GM is running the thing(within PFS Borders)

If you got a relaxed group, theres no problem in scouting a bit, depending on scenario, it may assist the group. But be aware that the only person responsible when you get a beating, is you.

If you already get the impression that Mr.Barbarian wont listen, let him stomp into everything and get into backstabbing position, as soon as possible.

Its allways a thing to know when to pick your fights, if played in a online group for scenarios, and noticed that one of the players rushed forward when he did HIS buffing, so i ask him once or twice to w8 for the group (we had a Magus with a lot of sticks for buffing), but after it did't connect, the Magus and i decided from encounter to encounter, if we continued buffing or followed the rushing char.

Sczarni 3/5

Have you check out the build i susggested Jack of Nothing? Shadowdancer definitely circumvents some of the concerns voiced here, mainly being able to sneak in combat and the ability to teleport through shadows.

4/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere

DesolateHarmony wrote:
Rei wrote:

... Using cover is your best bet, and it's definitely your best bet in combat. Just remember: if a piece of cover is closer to you than it is to your target, you can ignore it as cover, and you can peek around corners and doorways to make ranged attacks.

Just a quibble, but an important one:

Only low cover can be ignored in this way.

PRD wrote:
Low Obstacles and Cover: A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he's closer to the obstacle than his target.

Well, someone's been running this wrong for me. Thanks for the clarification.

Grand Lodge 5/5

My Paladin is great at being sneaky. He often scouts ahead, and if he is seen, then that is Irori's way of telling him he has not yet perfected the art, and must practice more. He welcomes the challenge.

Of course, he was a Ninja before he was a Paladin, so...

:P

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Do you prefer Ninjadin or Paladinja?

Grand Lodge 5/5

Either is fine. He's actually a lot of fun to play.

Sovereign Court 5/5

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Jessex wrote:
And truly, never split the party.

Except for that one adventure that actually says you should.

Yes. It's real. It exists.

Scarab Sages

There are a few scenarios where it's beneficial to split the party. Also, @Sammy T: I'd say Shinobadin for sure.

1/5

I actually play a character similar to what you are describing but he is a Wizard not a Rogue. This would be pretty good for a wayang, it lets you be a full caster with enough skill points (int focused) and with invisibility giving you a +20 who cares about the +3 class skill bonus. It is also very nice when you open up with say a Stinking Cloud in the surprise round giving your allies some time to catch up and your enemies less time to attack. Getting into melee by yourself with an encounter meant for the whole party is not usually a good idea, as mentioned above you either solo it and bore everyone or you need saving and annoy everyone.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

I've been at plenty of tables where one player regularly scouts ahead, others where a player wants to but is vetoed by other players or the GM. It's an area of the game where you must be prepared for massive table variation. A lot due to individual's past experiences. If someone used to play with a scout who constantly screwed things up or hogged lots of play time, they won't be amicable to it. If someone played with a scout who alerted them to dangers in advance allowing them to prebuff and get the jump on enemies, they'll be all for it.

Note scouting ahead means just looking, you get spotted and you run back to the rest of the party. Never try to attack something on your own, not because you can't beat it by yourself, but because you're not the only one at the table and everyone else wants to play too. As a general rule, if whatever you want to do is going to not let anyone else play for more than 5 minutes, don't do it.

2/5

Some friends and I made a group of ninjas that all took stealth synergy, vanishing trick, and had darkvision. We usually play them together, though they make trouble for the GM and the party sometimes. People usually enjoy playing with them though. We tend to have a 'representative' (follower bought with prestige, I forget the proper term) that let's them know to stay back a bit. Sometimes it works well, other times it backfires. Organized group is probably the best way, if you have understanding table-mates. Our PFS group is pretty cool, though I've heard horror stories from other places so it might not fly.

Personally, I have a number of characters with decent stealth, though it's not their focus. Scouting ahead is often a good idea if you're competent (Gloves of reconnaissance are great too). It helps you avoid ambushes and make battle plans. Just remember that getting closer to enemies gets progressively riskier. Play it safe when scouting.

If the party doesn't want to have someone scout (something I've rarely run into, at least in any significant way), I might just have the scout sneak off anyway, depending on the character. It's hard to stop them. It works especially well if the rest of the table is discussing something. You sneak off while their doing that. Though, again, we have a pretty good crowd in my PFS, so that might not fly where you are.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Jack of Nothing wrote:
Ok Ok ok I got it I'm no where near stealthy enough to effectively pull anything off.

Acceptance. The first step :) .

Quote:
So, if I do want to be a stealthy character here, what do i need to do to make use of being stealthy?

There's a few ways of trying to do it with some chance of success.

Either make the entire party sneaky and/or overcome every objection in my "why this isn't going to work" rant.

Quote:
At this point rather than keep picking apart my idiocy, as I do see I was in the wrong here, what are valid tactics for a lone stealth character in a party of everything else?

Its not idiocy, its the system not working how you expect it to. The picking apart is necessary because if you want to make a character that can sneak you have to overcome everything that might stop you from sneaking.

There's two main approaches. The thing is neither of them work very well with the quintessential sneaky type- the rogue. He's actually worse at stealth than many other classes because a +3 class bonus to stealth is both easy to come by and really the last of a scouts worries.

The first question is what do you want to do with stealth? Scout or ambush?

Scouting can be done better with druids. Tiny size gives you insane bonuses to stealth, earthglide almost guarantees you cover, and if you spot a rat in a dungeon you at worst get a broom, not the fireball.

Something important to remember is that ANY class can pick up stealth as a class skill with a simple trait. (they even pick up an extra 1 from the trait)

You want to ambush/use sneak attack dice.That gives you three options: the ninja , the rogue, the slayer, and (kinda) the investigator.

The rogue has the most sneak attack dice but ironically the most trouble sneaking because it needs its feats to be competent in combat and doesn't have many good special abilities or spells to provide cover and concealment.

The ninja has as many sneak attack dice as the rogue, but a better ability to become invisible move into the room and murderate from the shadows thanks to its swift action invisibility. It also has that swift action invisibility to get the hell out of dodge, as well as the ability to cast mirror image. The only drawback is its not as good with traps (but you can multiclass to something else if you need that ability back)

The slayer

The investigator doesn't have sneak attack, they have something similar. But what they do have are elixir's that have the best chance of being/staying invisible. Invisibility cuts down on 90% of your problems of stealth

The wayang is a good start. You need darkvision. Since you want sneak attack the small size for your weapons isn't that big a deal.

5/5 5/55/55/5

One problem with the message spell is its an actual whisper.

Those nearby can hear these messages with a DC 25 Perception check.

Thats pretty safe at low levels but at mid levels has a good chance of giving away your position.

One quieter but less specific alternative is to hand the scout the wizards familiar. Its dangerous to go alone. Take this The empathic link will let the wizard know if everything is "Ok, slightly worrysome, or the rogue needs a spatula now"

Shadow Lodge *

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Another way to go is a Rogue (Sniper).

You can scout ahead, and set up for an ambush while still being at some distance. Take your first shot, and signal the party to come in.

As a Sniper, you can get your sneak attack damage at a farther range than usual, and sniping allows you to make an immediate Stealth Check (at -20) as a free action to restealth. If your Stealth is *really good* this can keep you stealthed during most of the fight. That can be really handy, even if you aren't close enough to Sneak Attack.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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I think we're getting off topic.

Spoiler:

Seth has a ninja paladin.

Sho Kosugidin, The Mountain That Hides

4/5 5/55/55/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis

BigNorseWolf wrote:

One problem with the message spell is its an actual whisper.

Those nearby can hear these messages with a DC 25 Perception check.

Thats pretty safe at low levels but at mid levels has a good chance of giving away your position.

One quieter but less specific alternative is to hand the scout the wizards familiar. Its dangerous to go alone. Take this The empathic link will let the wizard know if everything is "Ok, slightly worrysome, or the rogue needs a spatula now"

DC 25 + range penalty of -1 per 10 foot to hear something. They still don't know where you are exactly.

Stay 60 feet away and you are looking at DC 31.

I agree that it doesn't always work, especially at high levels. Now figure out how far away the group has to be before they hear the most noisy member of the group clanking along.

Lantern Lodge 4/5

Jack of Nothing wrote:
While this is not a problem with pfs it is an issue that has always bothered me and it finally came up on the first stealth character I've played in ages....Any ideas?

While there are a number of issues to consider from a mechanical standpoint (blindsight, tremorsense, lifesense, cover/concealment, what to do when you're discovered, etc.), most of that you can figure out in the Advice forum.

What I feel should be addressed in the PFS forum is the real-world implications. As mentioned earlier, 'stealth responsibly'. At a PFS table, a large part of that means not ruining the fun of the other players at the table (ie: PFS golden rule 'Don't be a jerk'). Make sure everyone else at the table is on board with having a 'scout' in the group (or not in the group). Does this become a game with the DM and the scout, and everyone else just sits around for 5 hours doing little to nothing?

I'll give you two examples.

One is a scout that I play. I am 8th level now, so I have a lot of toys and abilities that help not only mechanically (earth glide, tremorsense, darkvision, etc.), but I have magical items to help keep the scenario as a 'table'. I use Kinsight Goggles so one ally can see through my eyes, and keep up communication either through message spells or a missive stone (like a magical walkie-talkie). That way, everyone can participate at the table (the guy looking through my eyes can make the appropriate knowledge checks to ID bad guys, we can talk tactics, the DM doesn't have to 'take me aside' to run an encounter, etc.). I make sure to coordinate so that the GROUP can ambush an encounter, rather than just me (although sometimes the only person who practically gets an action during the surprise round is me, depending on the DM and the scenario). However, even with all of this, I've had occasional players have issue with scouts. I am flexible - I have other characters I can play...or if I run into problems part way through the game with a particular person, I modify my play style so I just become the group's shadow - still doing the stealth thing, but not so much as a scout. We all play this game for fun, and people should try to work with others (explore, report, COOPERATE).

The other example is another game I played recently with another player playing a scout. He was an uber archer with a ring of invisibility, super stealth, and super damage output. He went ahead of the group with a message spell on him. At one encounter, he decided to ambush the encounter himself. The DM asked him, "Are you sure?" He said yes. When I asked him, "Without the help of the rest of the group?" he responded that he thought he could take out the bad guy himself. I responded, "Maybe so...but should you? We are playing this game as well, right? Maybe you could include us in on things?" He finally grudgingly notified us via the message spell that he was attacking...but that was the tone of play he kept the whole scenario. A couple of the other players at the table got so upset that they left the game before the last encounter.

While it's sometimes tough to play, a scout can be a viable option in PFS. Just consider all the factors - not just the game mechanical ones. This is a group game with a shared experience, and most of us like it that way.

5/5 5/55/55/5

BretI wrote:


Stay 60 feet away and you are looking at DC 31.

If you're lucky thats how far back your party is. Dungeons rarely give you that much space for you to poke your head around the corner, and if you come around the bend and there's a roper right in front of you whispering back the message would only be a 26 for them to hear, or 28 if they're accross the room.


Alright, thank you for the tips for doing this in a way that is beneficial and enjoyable for the rest of the party but I think this is getting more into advice territory so I may be making a topic in there on how to get all this done. Thanks a bunch everybody. :)

Dark Archive 5/5

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Okay, in my opinion, there's sneaky, and there's Stealth. The two aren't mutually exclusive, but you can have one without the other.

If what you want is to fade from sight, blend into the shadows, and scout that way, then the first few levels are going to suck. You'll learn a LOT about what your GM considers cover, concealment, and line of sight. But eventually, you can spend 20k on a Ring of Invisibility. Standard action to activate the ring, gives you 3 minutes of Invisibility. Makes scouting and everything a LOT easier. Plus, you can take the surprise round to attack and get your sneak attack, then you can go invisible and wait for your party to catch up. (Yes, Greater Invis would allow you to stay invisible while you attack, but a Wand of Greater Invisibility only lasts 7 rounds. That's not a lot of time.) Fun stuff, and it's what my rogue is doing right now.

But if you want to be sneaky, you don't need Stealth to do that. With a good Bluff and Disguise score, you can easily get into most areas, do a good job scouting, and get out without them being any wiser.

For example, my party wanted to know what was inside a warehouse. As the rogue, I said I would find out. I changed my clothes, held my belly, and knocked hard on the warehouse door, demanding to know where Robert was, and that he had better come out, and I wasn't going to take care of this child on my own. "There's no Robert here..." "Oh don't give me that, all you mercenaries are the same! Giving fake names to tavern girls, doing whatever you can to get into our skirts but when you need to take responsibility you're nowhere to be found!" It was all bluff checks, and because the lie was rather believable, and I looked the part, they were rather easy bluff checks. I got a count of how many people were in there, their approximate locations, who looked different from the rest, what their weapons were, all of that. Then I walked out grumbling about "You tell Robert he has to make this right! I won't raise no bastard on my own!", and the party proceeded to devastate that encounter.

Being sneaky and stealthy and all that is very doable in PFS, but you need to be creative about it, you need to know your surroundings, and you need to be adaptable.

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