Rogues get a lot of flack for being underpowered because Sneak Attack is hard to pull off and because they have low BAB.
So while Sneak Attack is heinously powerful, it's not very often you get to do it, since it's very hard to meet the "Denied Dex or Flanking" requirements.
Unless you find a way to make sure that you can do it.
Traits Blade of the Society, Reactionary
Race Two-Weapon Fighting
CL1 Rog1 Double Slice
CL2 Rog1 Finesse Rogue
CL3 Rog1 Combat Expertise
CL4 Rog1 Weapon Training
CL5 Rog1 Improved Dirty Trick
CL6 Rog1 Minor Magic - ???, Major Magic - True Strike
CL7 Rog1 ???
CL8 Rog1 Combat Trick - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
CL9 Rog1 Quick Dirty Trick
CL10 Rog1 Rogue Talent - Feat: Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Major Magic - True Strike)
CL11 Rog1 ???
CL12 Rog1 Hunter's Surprise, ???
Mind you, this'd only work for Home games (since Monster feats aren't legal in PFS), and it doesn't come online until 10th level, but being able to use True Strike as a Swift Action twice daily to gain a free +20 to Dirty Trick to Blind your opponent (and thus deny them their Dex to AC), is pretty sick regardless.
There is a much, much easier way (in my opinion) to arrange sneak attacks, available from level 1.
Step 1: Have a buddy or their animal companion walk up to the enemy and attack them.
Step 2: Walk up to the other side of the enemy and you are now flanking them.
Step 3: Stabby stab shank to your heart's content.
For higher-level maneuvers, invest in Combat Reflexes, Stand Still (have your buddy also get Stand Still), Step Up (have your buddy also get Step Up), Following Step, Step Up and Strike. This combination means that once you have your enemy sandwiched, they will have an extremely hard time ever getting away. If they try to move away normally, you and/or your buddy will probably stop them (and/or trip/disarm them, if you also invest in the appropriate feat chain), at which point you can stabby stab shank them as normal on your turn. If they try to 5ft step away, you use the Step Up feat chain to move up to 10ft and remain on the opposite side of them from your ally, who may have to also use their feat to get in position with their 5ft, depending on which direction the enemy moves. Barring some form of enemy teleportation, you are almost guaranteed all the sneak attacks you could ever wish for.
yeah the other reason people paint funny mustachios on rogues is that there are just too many enemies you'll bump into that have immunity to sneak attacks/precision damage. While a precision based magus can bypass it by zapping for a billion dmg with an intensified/empowered level 1 spell, the rogue is just useless.
"Uh, I, fient."
GM: "It lacks intelligence, so your fient fails. It attacks. (you take x damage)
you: "Oh noes, I use magic device on that scroll of lightning bolt"
GM: "Okay, so what's your umd? 15 total? Not bad. The UMD check for a caster level 5 scroll, is 25. So, roll? Ah, dang, you rolled a 9, sorry bout that. It attacks you: Hit. Ouch, almost forgot last round, it causes disease on hit. Make a fort save? Ouch, failed...
You: Guh! Hey wait, I have a +1 on skill checks because of that heroism I drank.
GM: Nice, so your lightning bolt scroll worked. Roll 3d6 damage.
You: *grumble* waste of 500 gold... okay I do 11 damage.
Gm: Okay, where were we?
You: I run away, that's where we are.
In intrigue/politics settings, or for finding traps/generally being a skill monkey, rogues shine. But they just aren't killy-monsters in a lot of dungeoneering type settings, and that's why they get the flak.
But hey, if you're playing in games where it's mostly humanoid enemies? Holy crap, take a rogue. Improved/greater grapple/surprise maneuver, defensive combat training, quickdraw. Now you sneak up, grab, pin, draw your knife, knife the crap out of them. Before they can break out (against your really high cmd) you'll kill them to death. And if you're behind them, they can't attack you until they break free. They can't concentrate to cast with your arm around their neck (not reliably anyway) and if you boost up the str and Dex they aren't going to have much luck breaking out.
"Casting Spells while Grappled/Grappling: The only spells which can be cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell."
So yeah, rogues have uses, and there are a lot of ways to build them. Sap masters, grapple monsters, snipers. But dual wielders suffer the moment they hear these words from the GMs mouth "(insert name of enemy here) turns to attack you...
Rogues get a lot of flack for being underpowered because Sneak Attack is hard to pull off and because they have low BAB.
So while Sneak Attack is heinously powerful, it's not very often you get to do it, since it's very hard to meet the "Denied Dex or Flanking" requirements.
Unless you find a way to make sure that you can do it.
Traits Blade of the Society, Reactionary
Race Two-Weapon Fighting
CL1 Rog1 Double Slice
CL2 Rog1 Finesse Rogue
CL3 Rog1 Combat Expertise
CL4 Rog1 Weapon Training
CL5 Rog1 Improved Dirty Trick
CL6 Rog1 Minor Magic - ???, Major Magic - True Strike
CL7 Rog1 ???
CL8 Rog1 Combat Trick - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
CL9 Rog1 Quick Dirty Trick
CL10 Rog1 Rogue Talent - Feat: Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Major Magic - True Strike)
CL11 Rog1 ???
CL12 Rog1 Hunter's Surprise, ???Mind you, this'd only work for Home games (since Monster feats aren't legal in PFS), and it doesn't come online until 10th level, but being able to use True Strike as a Swift Action twice daily to gain a free +20 to Dirty Trick to Blind your opponent (and thus deny them their Dex to AC), is pretty sick regardless.
i quite like my rogue that functions off pure bravado. takes a bow, and works with the Performance combat line. goes first thanks to improved initiative and massive dex, as well as combined with a super-high perception, and once he gets the first attack off in a surprise round he just demoralizes them and sneak attacks all day.
Half-elf fighter (weapon master) 3/rogue (bandit) 7
Str 14, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 16
Base Atk +8; CMB +13; CMD 26 (31 vs. disarm, 31 vs. sunder)
Feats Dazzling Display, Dramatic Display UC, Hero's Display UC, Performing Combatant UC, Point-blank Shot,
Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shatter Defenses, Weapon Focus (longbow)
Traits bully, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +15 (+27 to jump), Bluff +13, Diplomacy +10, Disable Device +18, Disguise +6,
Intimidate +20, Perception +11, Sleight of Hand +12, Stealth +11; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven
SQ ambush, elf blood, rogue talents (combat trick, deadly range, weapon training), trapfinding +3, weapon
guard
Ambush (Ex) When able to act in the suprise round, can take a move, standard, and swift action.
the big ones there are Dazzling Display, Dramatic Display, Hero's Display, and Shatter Defenses. everything else is just for funsies.
EDIT:
Performing Combatant Can make combat performance checks in any combat
Dramatic Display Gain +2 on Performance checks, attack rolls, and combat maneuver checks
Hero's Display Gain +2 on performance combat checks; may demoralize opponents
Dazzling Display (Longbow) Intimidate check to demoralize can affect those within 30' who see you.
performance combat lets you make intimidate checks any time you
A. deal percision damage.
B. Deal First Blood.
C. Achieve a critical hit.
D. Kill an opponant
SHATTER DEFENSES: Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn. This includes any additional attacks you make this round.
for clarity on how it works.
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The other problem being that Sneak Attack isn't "heinously powerful".
And even with your trick, you have 2x/day "guaranteed" Sneak Attack...against anyone who the Blind Dirty Trick works on, for a round or two at best.
Blindsight immediately screws you, as do creatures with too many eyes.
And against many things, denying them their Dex results in a whopping -1-2 to AC (or +5 or so, were that possible in some cases). So it's not a great attack bonus booster either.
Flanking works only as long as your Rogue is alive. You don't need teleportation or anything fancy, you just need to murder the Rogue. But yeah if your goal is to be the punching bag so the BSF can finish it off after you're dead, that works.
In intrigue/politics settings, or for finding traps/generally being a skill monkey, rogues shine.
They shine like a well polished turd considering there are quite a few classes that do all of those things better than the Rogue. Bard and Investigator especially.
I dont Think sneek is all that powerfull most rogues i have seen wouldent beat proper melee dudes even if sneak was always active. If this trick is great in your game i suggest the vivisectionist alchemist they Can have truestrike from level 1.
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I also like my rogue-barian that sneak attacks with a greataxe, or my Slayer that studies an opponent for a few rounds then sneak attacks with a bastard sword.
what makes it a sneak attack? well the barbarian generally yells SURPRISE as loud as he can as he swings. (if you want to see this build i can post it too. its urban barbarian and scout rogue, so he sneak attacks on a charge, and any time he moves. he also stacks dodge, mobility, and a pretty decent starting AC to sponge AoO's and get sneak attack from movement as well as from flanking, even after a charge. its a pretty fun build to play.
yeah, I don't have as many complaints about rogues in my games, as I tend to have a lot of humanoids and the like, with sprinkles of monsters, as compared to the other way around, which brigs me to the point: It all depends on what kind of games you plan to play. In a dungeon-crawl, you're eventually little more than a trap-fetcher with an occasional burst of dpr, and that's why they get so much flak.
As for the bar/investigator route- sure they do, but I'm not arguing that rogues shine therefore nobody else can beat them at it, just saying they've got a lot of class skills and 8skills/lvl, so they have some skill versatility, as well as their sneak-attacking/uncanny dodge and talents. Ever tried to build a dual wield investigator or bard? It's so feat heavy it just can't be done well without sacrificing better feats, while rogues can make some substitutes here and there and kind-of pull it off. It's not a class for people who want to dish out more damage than everyone else (even though that's what people *think* it should be because that's what they're like in WOW or whatever)
Rogues do have uses, it's just not a class for Optimizers, as it can't compete in the combat arena. It's a class for people who like mixing a little combat with their copious and varied skills. The only rogues I've seen that were really dangerous combative types were a slaver guy (grapple feats/saps/animated ropes) and a whipmaster (trip master) and they excelled only because they were played by inventive players, in predominantly humanoid urban settings. Hand those characters to someone else less creative or throw them in a dungeon, and they'd get rocked.
I've found Dirty Trick works on a lot less enemies than Feint, especially with a circlet of persuasion.
Really, all you need is TWF, ITWF, Two-Weapon Feint, Improved Two-Weapon Feint, then maybe the Scout Archetype, and you're sneak attacking every thing except for elementals and oozes, every round, without worrying about positioning.
Double slice, for a rogue, just seems like a terrible waste of feat.
yeah, I don't have as many complaints about rogues in my games, as I tend to have a lot of humanoids and the like, with sprinkles of monsters, as compared to the other way around, which brigs me to the point: It all depends on what kind of games you plan to play. In a dungeon-crawl, you're eventually little more than a trap-fetcher with an occasional burst of dpr, and that's why they get so much flak.
As for the bar/investigator route- sure they do, but I'm not arguing that rogues shine therefore nobody else can beat them at it, just saying they've got a lot of class skills and 8skills/lvl, so they have some skill versatility, as well as their sneak-attacking/uncanny dodge and talents. Ever tried to build a dual wield investigator or bard? It's so feat heavy it just can't be done well without sacrificing better feats, while rogues can make some substitutes here and there and kind-of pull it off. It's not a class for people who want to dish out more damage than everyone else (even though that's what people *think* it should be because that's what they're like in WOW or whatever)
Rogues do have uses, it's just not a class for Optimizers, as it can't compete in the combat arena. It's a class for people who like mixing a little combat with their copious and varied skills. The only rogues I've seen that were really dangerous combative types were a slaver guy (grapple feats/saps/animated ropes) and a whipmaster (trip master) and they excelled only because they were played by inventive players, in predominantly humanoid urban settings. Hand those characters to someone else less creative or throw them in a dungeon, and they'd get rocked.
I think a bard could pull it off well enough, but just like the rogue they are better off using a two-handed weapon if they want to do more damage.
The investigator can do decent damage also, but if they go into TWF it holds them back from being more versatile. They are better off using their feats/class features to increase versatility, while only spending 2 or 3 for combat, maybe even less.
i, generally, hate the TWF series of feats. like, really really hate it. a level 12 rogue with TWF vs a lvl 12 rogue with a bow isnt even a contest. for instance, manyshot, rapidshot, iterativex2 gives me 5 arrows that are each hitting sneak attack (if you build it right) at something like 22(manyshot)/22/22/17 (im using a +2 Adaptive Seeking Composite Longbow gp cost 19400) doing 1d8+8 each + 4d6 each, so a total of 4d8+20d6+35 on a full round action on turn 2 (vs a demoralized, flat footed [shatter defenses] target. a comperable TWF build is gonna be something like 14 (given up for feint) 14/12/12/7 to deal like... one more sneak attack dice, with an abysmal to hit bonus. not to mention you give up your best attack for feint just to make them flatfooted, unless you can flank. even if you're flaking though thats gonna be 16/16/14/14/9 (numbers with +2 heartseeker shortswords, but you can use any light weapon and get similar numbers) seems night and day to me.
It is really hard to get sneak attack with a bow if don't win initiative and after round 1, unless you come up with ways to use stealth in combat.
dot
You could attempt to cover several bases, such as being able to flank, being able to reinitiate stealth, and having the shatter defenses chain. My concern when I do my rogue builds often becomes, how much do I sacrificed for my sneak attack, when I could be improving one specific field of my abilities.
That being said, I tend to use Rogue as my psychological/Tactics warrior, often preferring Thug + Scout over basic Rogue.
Or be a Vivisectionist that uses eternal potion on a potion of Greater invisibility (say hello to the summoner) and sneak attack forever.
Mutagens and spells tend to give many naturals attacks (more sneak attack), and with a trait you get back trapfinding.
Sap master them to oblivion!
SAP MASTER! favorite rogue build. double sneak attack dice?
WOT? Just don't get sundered, it's a bag of marbles. It's gettin shredded.
yeah the other reason people paint funny mustachios on rogues is that there are just too many enemies you'll bump into that have immunity to sneak attacks/precision damage.
You sure about that? In Pathfinder the only creature types that are default immune to crits/precision damage are oozes and elementals.
some types of undead, anyone with fortified enchants, spells to do the same, golems of varied sorts. there are a few.
edit: honestly, been playin varied rpgs since 1st ed, and so have several of the folks I play with. There are just so many rules and revisions, there are some things I just take for granted. Could be they phased out the immunities of a lot of the usual suspects, and that's the second time I've seen mentioned the whole oozes and elementals thing. Anyone else? Can ah get a sekkin opinion?
As for using true strike for hitting reliably:
The cloak of the hedge wizard (divination) grants true strike 1/day.
Flaming Crab Games excellent hitman archetype grants studied target.
An often overlooked option are teamwork feats. Overwhelm and Pack flanking allow you to flank without having to actually be opposite of your ally.
Sadly both have limitations. Overwhelm requires the creature to be two size categories larger than you or your ally. So it's more useful for two small creatures. Pack Flanking requires an animal companion. But it's something to think about.
some types of undead, anyone with fortified enchants, spells to do the same, golems of varied sorts. there are a few.
edit: honestly, been playin varied rpgs since 1st ed, and so have several of the folks I play with. There are just so many rules and revisions, there are some things I just take for granted. Could be they phased out the immunities of a lot of the usual suspects, and that's the second time I've seen mentioned the whole oozes and elementals thing. Anyone else? Can ah get a sekkin opinion?
I know what you mean; my group often forgets changes made to Pathfinder from 3.5. But to my knowledge the only undead that are immune to crits/precision are non-corporeal, which is a function of their non-corporeal nature not them being undead. Also, golems (at least the common ones; I haven't looked at every golem) can also be crit or sneak-attacked now.
yeah the other reason people paint funny mustachios on rogues is that there are just too many enemies you'll bump into that have immunity to sneak attacks/precision damage.You sure about that? In Pathfinder the only creature types that are default immune to crits/precision damage are oozes and elementals.
Here is the whole breakdown for what is relevant
Enemy Subtypes Immune to Precision-based Damage (Sneak Attack):
• Elemental
• Incorporeal
• Ooze
• Protean (50% chance to ignore SA damage)
Enemy Subtypes Immune to Flanking
• Ooze (Immune to SA damage anyway)
• Swarm
• Elemental (Immune to SA damage anyway)
Enemy Subtypes Immune to Critical Hits
• Aeon
• Elemental
• Incorporeal
• Ooze
• Protean
• Swarm
It is really hard to get sneak attack with a bow if don't win initiative and after round 1, unless you come up with ways to use stealth in combat.To that I say; Scout/Sniper Archetype!
At level 8 they can just move 10 ft and sneak attack from ranged :-) Cheesy but legal by RAW :-)
And you'll only be getting 1 shot a round, so better make sure that one shot is better than full attacking.
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If you make a high-dex rogue and want to get SAs, flank. Right from level 1 you have a built in way to get this going. "But Mark, forsooth! What about enemy attacks, AoOs, etc?" You can walk in the door with a Small sized rogue, 18 Dex and some studded leather on and rock an 18 AC. Just eat the AoO chance. If you have some speed on your PC and can afford to move at 1/2 move, use Acrobatics.
As you level, try do evolve 1 or 2 other ways to pull this off such as feats, summoned monsters, sniping, etc. But never forget when the chips are down that as long as you can find the flanking square and have the Move to get there you've got no excuse to move and murder.
At high level, when everything's immune to SA, try to find a wizard and get him to make you his familiar. Sure you have to wear an imp costume all the time and make silly hand gestures, but it sure beats being destroyed in melee.
At high level, when everything's immune to SA
Or be a Vivisectionist that uses eternal potion on a potion of Greater invisibility (say hello to the summoner) and sneak attack forever.
Mutagens and spells tend to give many naturals attacks (more sneak attack), and with a trait you get back trapfinding.
Sap master them to oblivion!
Potions of Greater Invis don't exist. It's a 4th level spell and potions only go up to 3rd.
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Potions of Greater Invis don't exist. It's a 4th level spell and potions only go up to 3rd.Or be a Vivisectionist that uses eternal potion on a potion of Greater invisibility (say hello to the summoner) and sneak attack forever.
Mutagens and spells tend to give many naturals attacks (more sneak attack), and with a trait you get back trapfinding.
Sap master them to oblivion!
Summoner has it as a 3rd level spell. Hence the thanks to them.
Greater invisibility is a third level spell for summoners, because of course it is.
Damn summoners =P
Edit: Ninja'd by Xethik.
Greater invisibility is a third level spell for summoners, because of course it is.
Damn summoners =P
Edit: Ninja'd by Xethik.
I had Greater Invis up, it was an easy ninja.
Anywho, I think by level 16, permanent greater invis isn't as great as it may seem. A lot of things like bypassing it, especially post-level 12.
Though by L16, if you have a wizard/sorcerer/witch buddy then hopefully (s)he's bright enough to realize that casting mind blank on you is going to get fantastic results.
It is really hard to get sneak attack with a bow if don't win initiative and after round 1, unless you come up with ways to use stealth in combat.
Thats why my rogue invests so heavily in the performance tree, if he wins the initiative and can attack in the sneak attack round, during which he gets a full action for being a bandit, and his attacks are always considered against a flat footed target from the rogue trait he gets to make at least 1 demoralize check for everything close enough (and he should always always opt to move into range of 30 feet before firing) in round 1. if he CANT attack in the sneak attack round he uses Dazzling Display to demoralize them, and then gets to make a free action intimidate check to demoralize them for an extra round off of Hero's Display so yes, he has to wait until round 2 to full round sneak attack, but after that round he gets to sneak attack everything within 30 feet for free, because each time he does he gets another chance to demoralize.
im not saying that you dont have to build VERY VERY specifically, and that you dont lose something of your rogueish-ness when you do it, but i AM saying its the most reliable way to get massive numbers of sneak attack dice due to its high to-hit, its high performance check, and its high intimidate check. which is really what the thread is about... the most reliable sneak attacker.
also, correct me if i am wrong, but can you not sneak attack an incorporeal with a ghost touch, or ghost bane weapon?
Ghost Touch yes, Undead Bane, no.
It is really hard to get sneak attack with a bow if don't win initiative and after round 1, unless you come up with ways to use stealth in combat.Thats why my rogue invests so heavily in the performance tree, if he wins the initiative and can attack in the sneak attack round, during which he gets a full action for being a bandit...
i am not sure bandits get a full round action in the surprise round. In my book it says
"Ambush (Ex): At 4th level, a bandit becomes fully practiced in the art of ambushing. When she acts in the surprise round, she can take a move action, standard action, and swift action during the surprise round, not just a move or standard action. This ability replaces uncanny dodge."Or am i missing somthing?
Edit: you most likely ditent say what i was Reading so feel free to ignore me:)
well, that IS a full round, innit it? if ive been doing it wrong then ive been doing it wrong, but for the most part unless they start at ~30 feet i always move-shoot-swift demoralize in the surprise round, and when i swift demoralize Hero's Display allows me to demoralize again, giving me two chances to apply Shaken. it does work better if you can full round and get Shatter Defenses on the first round... but yeah, once you pop shaken on them you sneak attack all day, and by sneak attacking you get more chances to demoralize, and shatter defenses, so on and so forth.
so once again we come around to the issue most rogues face: mindless creatures, uncanny dodge, and amorphous creatures. but, against those, im still 1d8+8 vs a d4 or d6 with no str mod that your standard TWF is gonna have. if you take it to lvl 12 he takes Hammer the Gap or Masterful Display maybe Dastardly Finish or even Savage Display for more damage or better performance.
Though by L16, if you have a wizard/sorcerer/witch buddy then hopefully (s)he's bright enough to realize that casting mind blank on you is going to get fantastic results.
That would be insane.
I've done my math, and it seems that a custom magic item that provides Mind Blank would have a price of 120000 gp. Or you have to give a look into mythic to access Headband of Sealed Thoughts, which is similar, has flaws (no protection against limited wish, wish and miracle) and benefits (it's actually a +4 int item, with a nice mythic effect).Other math and it looks like that I can touch 260d6 of nonlethal damage (3 iteratives, 2 from TWF, 1 tentacle discovery, 5 from beast shape III (bite, bite, bite, bite, bite (Rat King, Bestiary 4)), 1 from tail terror (racial heritage), 1 helm of the mammoth lord), a lot of small dices and a surprisingly high static damage (I can easily touch 34 strength with race, belt, mutagen, tome/wishes, point build and level up) added to a +4 merciful AoMF (+5 if you use the feat Bludgeoner).
AND a to hit bonus which starts at +32, which is good, while, remember, you target flat-footed things (at high level that might not mean nothing but you can expect to be able to gain +3/+4, sometimes less, sometimes more).
You wouldn't suck when meeting things immune to SA.
You could even silence yourself (drink isn't impeded by silence spells), negate your own aroma (extracts, same thing) and start flying (you have a lot of ways for that). Extremely hard to be detected (hearing, scent, tremorsense all negated).
Does anyone knows how to become immune to blindsense/sight without becoming incorporeal?
Edit: How does 260d6 look like?
Mmmh, looks like the forum doesn't allow to use more than 100 rolls, I needed to separate them.
Edit 2: Oh, if I use an aasimar I can add 2 wings, and we have a deific obedience which gives us other 3d6 of SA, totaling for a total of (13+2+3)*20= 390d6.
Greatsword fighter with vital strike that yells "Sneak Attack!" before every roll.
You will roll just about as many d6s while probably doing more consistent and better damage. Plus your defenses will be higher.
Greatsword fighter with vital strike that yells "Sneak Attack!" before every roll.
You will roll just about as many d6s while probably doing more consistent and better damage. Plus your defenses will be higher.
haha, i mentioned this build earlier:
Half-Orc Barbarian (urban) 2 / Rogue (scout) 8+
+1 Impact Adamantine Greatsword
3d6+18 while raging
vital strike is 16 to hit
scouts charge, and/or move 10 feet, free sneak attack.
He literally charges screaming SURPRISE as he smashes narbs in the face with his greatsword for 6d6+18+4d6. far from optimized since i didnt dump any stats and such... but hey. its all for fun.
stuff
thats pretty scary, but how many times a day can you do that? for how long? how many rounds of setup? also, the hell do you look like while this is going on? cthulu? you've got what looks like 2 arms, 1 tentacle, 6 heads, a tail, a pair of wings, and a helmet with tusks on it. is anyone even gonna stand still long enough for you to do this? if i see... that... coming for me im running like a b%&$& and never turning around. which i guess solves the issue just as well...
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Though by L16, if you have a wizard/sorcerer/witch buddy then hopefully (s)he's bright enough to realize that casting mind blank on you is going to get fantastic results.That would be insane.
I've done my math, and it seems that a custom magic item that provides Mind Blank would have a price of 120000 gp. Or you have to give a look into mythic to access Headband of Sealed Thoughts, which is similar, has flaws (no protection against limited wish, wish and miracle) and benefits (it's actually a +4 int item, with a nice mythic effect).
Other math and it looks like that I can touch 260d6 of nonlethal damage (3 iteratives, 2 from TWF, 1 tentacle discovery, 5 from beast shape III (bite, bite, bite, bite, bite (Rat King, Bestiary 4)), 1 from tail terror (racial heritage), 1 helm of the mammoth lord), a lot of small dices and a surprisingly high static damage (I can easily touch 34 strength with race, belt, mutagen, tome/wishes, point build and level up) added to a +4 merciful AoMF (+5 if you use the feat Bludgeoner).
AND a to hit bonus which starts at +32, which is good, while, remember, you target flat-footed things (at high level that might not mean nothing but you can expect to be able to gain +3/+4, sometimes less, sometimes more).
You wouldn't suck when meeting things immune to SA.
You could even silence yourself (drink isn't impeded by silence spells), negate your own aroma (extracts, same thing) and start flying (you have a lot of ways for that). Extremely hard to be detected (hearing, scent, tremorsense all negated).
Does anyone knows how to become immune to blindsense/sight without becoming incorporeal?Edit: How does 260d6 look like?
** spoiler omitted **Mmmh, looks like the forum doesn't allow to use more than 100 rolls, I needed to separate them.
Edit 2: Oh, if I use an aasimar I can add 2 wings, and we have a deific obedience which gives us other 3d6 of SA, totaling for a total of (13+2+3)*20= 390d6.
Two Extra Rage Power Feats and a 2 level dip into Barbarian gives you Animal Fury, Lesser Fiend Totem, and Lesser Draconic Bloodline, so 1 Bite, 1 Gore, and 2 Claw attacks.
Take away the Helm of the Mammoth Lord since you've already got your Gore Attack, and instead place in a custom Magic Item which grants Divine Vessel (CL16) 1/day, use, for 51,200gp., which gives you 2 Slam Attacks
Though by L16, if you have a wizard/sorcerer/witch buddy then hopefully (s)he's bright enough to realize that casting mind blank on you is going to get fantastic results.That would be insane.
I've done my math, and it seems that a custom magic item that provides Mind Blank would have a price of 120000 gp. Or you have to give a look into mythic to access Headband of Sealed Thoughts, which is similar, has flaws (no protection against limited wish, wish and miracle) and benefits (it's actually a +4 int item, with a nice mythic effect).
Other math and it looks like that I can touch 260d6 of nonlethal damage (3 iteratives, 2 from TWF, 1 tentacle discovery, 5 from beast shape III (bite, bite, bite, bite, bite (Rat King, Bestiary 4)), 1 from tail terror (racial heritage), 1 helm of the mammoth lord), a lot of small dices and a surprisingly high static damage (I can easily touch 34 strength with race, belt, mutagen, tome/wishes, point build and level up) added to a +4 merciful AoMF (+5 if you use the feat Bludgeoner).
AND a to hit bonus which starts at +32, which is good, while, remember, you target flat-footed things (at high level that might not mean nothing but you can expect to be able to gain +3/+4, sometimes less, sometimes more).
You wouldn't suck when meeting things immune to SA.
You could even silence yourself (drink isn't impeded by silence spells), negate your own aroma (extracts, same thing) and start flying (you have a lot of ways for that). Extremely hard to be detected (hearing, scent, tremorsense all negated).
Does anyone knows how to become immune to blindsense/sight without becoming incorporeal?Edit: How does 260d6 look like?
** spoiler omitted **Mmmh, looks like the forum doesn't allow to use more than 100 rolls, I needed to separate them.
Edit 2: Oh, if I use an aasimar I can add 2 wings, and we have a deific obedience which gives us other 3d6 of SA, totaling for a total of (13+2+3)*20= 390d6.
Two Extra Rage Power Feats and a 2 level dip into Barbarian gives you Animal Fury, Lesser Fiend Totem, and Lesser Draconic Bloodline, so 1 Bite, 1 Gore, and 2 Claw attacks.
Take away the Helm of the Mammoth Lord since you've already got your Gore Attack, and instead place in a custom Magic Item which grants Divine Vessel (CL16) 1/day, use, for 51,200gp., which gives you 2 Slam Attacks
The first works partially, as Sap Master only apply to bludgeon attacks.
The second doesn't work at all, since I don't have free arms for that (vestigial arms don't give attacks). Remember, I'm TWFing.
How much this is reliable?
Everything but mutagens and extracts always apply. Mutagens last hours per level, extracts last minutes per level (prepare Beast shape III as much as you can).
It takes one round to be online, expecting to drink the mutagen in the morning and the extract when combat starts. Actually 1 standard action, so move to the target.
The point is that I'm undetectable, combat starts when this monster drops the caster (who has still some chance of making trouble).
more stuff
well... good thing i dont play a caster, because once again i say, once i see that..........thing looking at me im hauling ass for the nearest door and waiting for at least some of it to wear off xD are mages the only things you run into issues against? oh, one more thing... how do you do against Blindsight and save-or-suck spells?
more stuffwell... good thing i dont play a caster, because once again i say, once i see that..........thing looking at me im hauling ass for the nearest door and waiting for at least some of it to wear off xD are mages the only things you run into issues against? oh, one more thing... how do you do against Blindsight and save-or-suck spells?
Blindsight? Until I find a way to bypass it I think I'll pounce, losing some attacks. Still more than 1000 damage.
Save or suck? They need to target me.
Remember that this monster could just attack once and wait for the paranoia.
Then repeat. He's not stupid.
more stuffwell... good thing i dont play a caster, because once again i say, once i see that..........thing looking at me im hauling ass for the nearest door and waiting for at least some of it to wear off xD are mages the only things you run into issues against? oh, one more thing... how do you do against Blindsight and save-or-suck spells?Blindsight? Until I find a way to bypass it I think I'll pounce, losing some attacks. Still more than 1000 damage.
Save or suck? They need to target me.
Remember that this monster could just attack once and wait for the paranoia.
Then repeat. He's not stupid.
im just trying to find a way, as a gm/player, to not die instantly to this thing. what is your pounce range? 10ft like a normal cat? what level are you? would you be able to figure out a small 16-19 year old girls class based on observing her? what is your static damage without sneak attack? is it just greater invis, or some other form of being undetectable.
edit: i feel, as a player and a gm, that if there is no way to kill something in combat, or other flaw that stops it from just roflstomping its way through entire encounters solo, then i dont allow it to be played. there is of course a difference between fun and just plain broken.
some types of undead, anyone with fortified enchants, spells to do the same, golems of varied sorts. there are a few.
edit: honestly, been playin varied rpgs since 1st ed, and so have several of the folks I play with. There are just so many rules and revisions, there are some things I just take for granted. Could be they phased out the immunities of a lot of the usual suspects, and that's the second time I've seen mentioned the whole oozes and elementals thing. Anyone else? Can ah get a sekkin opinion?
Only incorporeal undead, but that is because of being incorporeal not because they are undead, and that can be taken care of with a ghost touch weapon.