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Out of curiosity, has anyone already brought up a dwarf fighter with steel soul and shatterspell? Steel soul upgrades the racial bonus vs. spells to a +4 (combined with his natural dwarf wisdom and/or iron will, possibly solving the "he immediately fails a save and dies" issue) and shatterspell (a feat that's dwarf fighter-only) would let General Meathead punch out any spell 3/day a la spellsunder.
Though of course he has the obvious dwarf problem of his short, stubby legs making him slower than his opponents...
Another goofy option - if General Meathead's an aasimar, then suddenly flight, shooting sunbeams, etc. is on the table - with all the feats he's got, he could handily take the aasimar racial feats without screwing up whatever his fighting style is.
Dirt and grime is an object.At level 20, casters aren't bathing. They have spells for that :)Prestidigitation. Casters don't bathe from level 1.Sorry, rules as written, it can only clean items, not creatures.
I know RAW only applies to non-spellcasters though, so probably a moot point.
Even by the most pedantic definitions, fully expected in the defense of spellcaster supremacy, you do not clean the dirt, you clean the object that is dirty.
Nice try though. And while it was a while ago, I really liked your wooly mammoth comment.
Zhangar, the problem with the dwarf and the aasimar is not really that they couldn't do it, but that they are using racial abilities instead of class abilities to deal with the scenario, which, while valid, defeats the point of the thought exercise.
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"Good gods, man! You're filthy! When's the last time you bathed?"
"I am perfectly clean."
"You're covered in dirt!"
"Yes, but very clean dirt!"
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Precisely.
It doesn't smell, and it's not really visible. It's the next best thing to clean!
@ Kain - Eh, the dwarf fighter's perfectly valid for this exercise - Spellshatter is a thing that he can do because he is both a dwarf AND a fighter.
(Technically, other dwarves with classes that are allowed to poach fighter feats (like magus) can also do it, but oh well.)
The aasimar fighter is iffier, but an aasimar with a lot of bonus feats is more likely to actually have the racial feats (or least, the ones other than the bare minimum to get wings) than an aasimar without, since it's probably not actually hurting his build to get them.
Also, if your argument can be boiled down to "prestidigitation can clean dead bodies but not living people" you might be taking it to the point of silliness. =P
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I think your ordinary mage or fighter is still gonna want to take a bath on occasion.
Adventurers aren't exactly "ordinary", though.
I think you could actually make the argument that the mage who is reckless enough to bath in an ambushable location would not have the foresight to cast standard preparatory spells like Freedom of Movement of Shapechange. He's clearly not very bright. ;D
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I would consider cleaning yourself a simple, minor magical effect.
Prestidigitation can be used to clean yourself and anyone who disagrees should go to law school to better develop their lawyering.
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Prestidigitation. Casters don't bathe from level 1.My 18th level fey bloodline sorcerer most certainly does, often while in the company of a beautiful lady. In fact one of his girlfriends is a neried, which kind of makes bathing a key activity in the relationship.
It's clearly more optimal to bathe with company. This is probably why the Romans built public baths.
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Which fighter archetypes would stand a better chance of survival [than the core fighter]?
Eldritch Guardian fighter archetype specialized in Improved Unarmed Strike feats with a Decoy Familiar (which becomes an identical copy of the fighter with all of the fighter's combat feats)
This 10th level party is toast.
@ Kain - Eh, the dwarf fighter's perfectly valid for this exercise - Spellshatter is a thing that he can do because he is both a dwarf AND a fighter.
(Technically, other dwarves with classes that are allowed to poach fighter feats (like magus) can also do it, but oh well.)
The aasimar fighter is iffier, but an aasimar with a lot of bonus feats is more likely to actually have the racial feats (or least, the ones other than the bare minimum to get wings) than an aasimar without, since it's probably not actually hurting his build to get them.
Also, if your argument can be boiled down to "prestidigitation can clean dead bodies but not living people" you might be taking it to the point of silliness. =P
Not my argument. Simply the rules themselves. I didn't write them, but creatures and objects are different things in the game, and very specifically so. Back in 3.0, they had a different cantrip for cleaning off your body. Might have been 3pp though, perhaps in Relics and Rituals?
But seriously, if your argument begins "I clean the dirt particles themselves so that I don't have to take a bath", you're already starting with logic that even my 4 year old nephew knows better than to try. He at least just makes a break for it. You don't have to boil that down into reductio ad absurdum at all, it begins logically fallacious.
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Now I'm picturing a new encounter: Grappling-focused fighter tries to surprise the wizard to force him to take a bath. Just have to catch him at one of those in-between times on freedom of movement...spellsunder works, too, if he's got it. Or he could enlist the cleric for a targeted dispel magic.
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Assuming he's been caught with his pants down figuratively (as well as literally), a lot depends on his feat choice. Improved Dirty Trick, Catch Off-Guard and...
Catching naked people off-guard, dirty tricks. My oh my!
I'm not sure this is an appropriate topic - this is after all the internet.
Oh, hey, I never even noticed that. So I guess my old belief that a grappling fighter can kick a wizard's ass is a little bit closer to accurate—unless the wizard has a Still Spelled teleport ready and/or is able to make the Concentration check. And that's assuming the wizard is dumb enough to be on the ground within reach.
But it works for my scenario! Clean up, dammit!
I'm not sure this is an appropriate topic - this is after all the internet.
Everyone, I demand this turn into another Succubus In A Grapple discussion. It is the only way to redeem this thread.
Oh, hey, I never even noticed that. So I guess my old belief that a grappling fighter can kick a wizard's ass is a little bit closer to accurate—unless the wizard has a Still Spelled teleport ready and/or is able to make the Concentration check.
Good luck with casting in a grapple as the DC is 10 + spell level + grappler's CMD, which for a fighter can easily be into the 50s well before 20, especially if they use the favored class bonus that increase CMD against certain maneuvers. After a certain point it's impossible for a caster to make that kind of concentration check and as an additional screw you if the spell has a component it needs to be in hand before the grapple began.
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The Concentration DC actually runs off CMB, not CMD, so it is much lower. A 10th level grappler is unlikely to have the CMB to disrupt a 20th level caster, but a 20th level grappler probably will.
Also, Still Spell is unnecessary, teleport has no somatic component to begin with.
Well, a Grapple-focused Succubus with Fighter levels would probably do quite well in this situation...
I think the DM that allows a Succubus as a playable character is the exception, not the norm.
Also, Still Spell is unnecessary, teleport has no somatic component to begin with.
I just wanted to mention this.
That still doesn't let you auto escape the grapple.
"A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity."
Even if its a Stilled Silent Teleport you still need to make the concentration check. Since your still being grappled.
The Concentration DC actually runs off CMB, not CMD, so it is much lower. A 10th level grappler is unlikely to have the CMB to disrupt a 20th level caster, but a 20th level grappler probably will.
Also, Still Spell is unnecessary, teleport has no somatic component to begin with.
A level 20 grappler will without a doubt, no probably, stop a level 20 caster barring nat 20s being counted as an auto-success (no idea if that applies here). Being CMB based doesn't really make it too much better versus a dedicated grappler. I had a level 13 one a while ago with around +50 or so for grapple checks which would have been more than enough to push things into impossible range even for a level 20 caster. Now I'm trying to think how I got it quite so high off the top of my head... wish I still had that sheet.
BAB 20, Str 30 and Greater Grapple nets you a Grapple CMB of 34. You can push it a bit higher still, though 50 will be tough - but even at that value, its DC 44 + Spell Level. No easy check to make :)
With level 10 dedicated grappler in mind and making some assumptions about stats and likely gear...
-BAB = +10
-Str = +6
-Greater Grapple = +4
-Celestial Obedience, don't remember the specific lord = +4
-Boots of the Battle Herald = +4
-Lore Warden (because that's why you take if you are a non-dirty trick based maneuver fighter)= +4 at 10, +6 at 11
-Bracers of Skilled Maneuver or Gloves of Dueling = +2 (+4 if you can make them into one item, but assuming not)
-Brawling armor = +2
-Weapon Training for Unarmed = +2
-Amulet of Mighty Fists = +2
-Armband of the Brawler = +1
= +41 grapple
I think the guy I mentioned had higher strength due to rolled stats as well as a slightly higher AoMF... and he was 13 which would have net an extra +5 from BAB and Lore Warden.
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Impressively high. Although, I think if our grapplers are worshiping specific celestial lords, and spending their entire wealth on their grapple check, then you're probably facing an opponent who does have that Torag trait and emergency force sphere and whatever else people were arguing about ;)
Although on second look it does seem that you've overspent your wealth by level on the grapple check alone, before even beginning to look into other items like rings of protection or cloaks of resistance.
You've got 62k total at 10th.
30k - boots of the battle herald
15k - gloves of dueling
4.2k or so - +1 brawling armor
16k - amulet of mighty fists +2
.5k - armbands of the brawler
65.7k spent just on boosting your grapple check. Well, you're not too far overspent, but there's still no general purpose items, no defensive items other than +1 light armor for a 10th level front line fighter. I'm a bit leery of that, and I don't think I would use such a build as the source of any practical comparisons. Lore Warden is probably overall the best fighter archetype*, and can certainly do a lot better than a vanilla fighter in a lot of ways, but it's got nothing that will help you survive with completely neglected defenses like this.
Also I'm not sure I believe in a higher strength than 22 at 10th level, since you have no leftover budget for a stat boosting item and even the 22 requires a starting 18, 2 racial, 2 level. At 13, maybe :p
But anyway, I'd be more interested in seeing a character who has concerns besides getting the highest possible grapple check, like, surviving.
For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins.
What can you achieve with (roughly) that type of distribution?
Also, I seem to be breaking my vow to ignore wizardy talk. Curse my love of posting.
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I'm seeing more like +30-ish with a bit less of a myopic character. Still pretty good. Higher than I would have eyeballed for a 10th level fighter. Heh, Lore Wardens are awesome.
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Fair enough about loot. That was my level 13 setup of grapple items and I didn't compare it to 10th WBL.
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And actually, a Grapple is NOT an unarmed strike - Weapon Training (Close) does not apply apparently :(
Same with other unarmed strike specific boni.
Yep. Which kinda sucks. Base rules don't allow it. Only allowed by DM fiat.
And actually, a Grapple is NOT an unarmed strike - Weapon Training (Close) does not apply apparently :(
Same with other unarmed strike specific boni.
So...trip adds your sword's bonus, weapon focus, weapon training, enchantment to the attempt. Disarm adds your spear's. But grappling is a no go for unarmed strike?
Seems a bummer.
And actually, a Grapple is NOT an unarmed strike - Weapon Training (Close) does not apply apparently :(
Same with other unarmed strike specific boni.
That's unfortunate. Does AoMF not apply then either?
as long as it affects your attack roll, the Amulet is fine.
==Aelryinth
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eeesh, wow. So, no weapon training at all, either.
The highly developed art of wrestling is obviously beyond the training skills of a devoted fighter.
==Aelryinth
The Concentration DC actually runs off CMB, not CMD, so it is much lower. A 10th level grappler is unlikely to have the CMB to disrupt a 20th level caster, but a 20th level grappler probably will.
Also, Still Spell is unnecessary, teleport has no somatic component to begin with.
Assuming even the barest, most obvious Grapple feats, a 20th-level fighter should have around a +34, possibly more if you're using an enchanted mancatcher (though I'm not sure how that actually adjucates).
A 20th-level wizard will have around a +34, assuming they happened to grab Grappled Caster. So, what spells are we assuming he wants to cast? Dimension Door is probably the most logical one. That's a DC 48 check. He needs to roll a 14 or higher—tricky, but not impossible. Teleport is considerably harder, of course.
That said, has he prepared it more than once? He only gets as many chances as he has prepared spells.* He'll be pinned pretty much instantly, meaning he has to start Stilling his spells (we can assume he took Eschew Materials). So how many spells has he prepared he can use in a grapple?
Don't forget, the grappler can start readying actions to injure the caster when a spell starts (Greater Grapple lets him maintain as a move). The Quicken-divert tactic doesn't work quite as well when your Quickened spells still need somatic components. So now the caster has to make two difficult Concentration checks per spell attempted. And he only has so many spells he can even use.
And can he get a spell off successfully before the grappling fighter knocks him unconscious?
Again, we're operating with the major conceit that the caster doesn't have a spell like shapechange already cast. But within that generous scenario...yeah, grappler is gonna kick that wizard's ass.
*A sorcerer will likely do considerably better in this situation for these reasons. Then again, will the sorcerer have the right spells to do the trick? He only gets four 4th level spells known.
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
How is this ambiguous? It should at the very least apply to your damage, which'll help with the aforementioned readied actions.
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yeah, I HAVE houseruled differently. Though Bobx3's completely right - boxing and Greco-Roman wrestling are radically different combat techniques.
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yeah, I HAVE houseruled differently. Though Bobx3's completely right - boxing and Greco-Roman wrestling are radically different combat techniques.
So is fighting with a rapier and fighting with a gladius, but those seem to fit in a nice group. Proficiency-wise, flails, greataxes, warhammers and bec-de-corbins are likely radically different to handle (though definitely less complicated than fighting with a shepherd's crook), but they all fall under the umbrella of martial weapons.
Throwing a dagger and melee knife fighting are quite different from each other, but the same feat affects them both.
It never ceases to amaze me at how specific/real world the game breaks down martial fighting into specific feats, of which even a 20th level character only gets between 10 and 20, yet magic, which has insanely low prereqs for spells (Stat 10+spell level), and even a 10th level sorcerer has 24 to choose from, continues to be broad and widely applicable.
You have to specialize in three combat maneuvers if you want to be able to push someone, pull them, and move them side to side, and a fourth if you want to grab onto them. Meanwhile, telekinesis and mage hand are laughing at you. That seems like a discrepancy to me, but I suppose this isn't really the thread for that discussion.
It never ceases to amaze me at how specific/real world the game breaks down martial fighting into specific feats, of which even a 20th level character only gets between 10 and 20, yet magic, which has insanely low prereqs for spells (Stat 10+spell level), and even a 10th level sorcerer has 24 to choose from, continues to be broad and widely applicable.VERY true. It's what bugs me about the fighter/wizard discrepancy the most - not 'power' as such, but the sheer versatility a wizard gets, especially once he starts collecting scrolls - new sourcebooks can grant completely new abilities to wizards and divine casters, while martials can't just casually learn new tricks.
Sorcerers are much closer in 'balance', at least in concept and when you ignore consumables - but still on a larger scale.
I wonder if one could build a new fighter loosely based on the sorcerer concept. Fighting Schools instead of Bloodlines, and martial powers / maneuvers instead of spells.
Sounds a lot like Tome of Battle/Path of War.
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I think the DM that allows a Succubus as a playable character is the exception, not the norm.
Reporting for duty! (In specific campaigns.)
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On the prestidigitation spell. It only lasts an hour. So, does that mean the stuff you cleaned off comes back an hour later? Is it only giving the appearance of clean, or is it actually clean?
As for a fighter bathing, maybe he justs waits for rain to fall then he stands near a lava pool to dry off. Without taking his armour off.
At level 20, he probably bathes in fire and walks away unharmed.
Disarming a PC is frustrating because it actually works against PCs.
Can't disarm claws, bites, tentacles, horns, or anything of that nature.
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We don't speak of those "campaigns" in these threads TL.I think the DM that allows a Succubus as a playable character is the exception, not the norm.Reporting for duty! (In specific campaigns.)
Hah!
Incidentally, I've used it twice, and at least once the character in question was extremely chaste...
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No more than paladins not getting evildoers to smite or rangers getting favoured enemies to hack at, though. Unless you are willfully building your character completely onto a sidetrack, your DM should take such things into consideration when planning encounters. Players should get to use their shticks now and then.
Paladins are still good(Heh. Puns.) even when they're smiting though. Disarm is nothing if you aren't disarming. It's more or less a wasted investment.
It's not the DM's fault that a HUGE number of monsters rely on natural attacks rather than manufactured weapons. It's more unlikely to face a large number of humanoid enemies as they take MUCH more time to build.
And the most dangerous enemies are usually wielding no weapons at all and are casting spells.
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Disarming a PC is frustrating because it actually works against PCs.
Can't disarm claws, bites, tentacles, horns, or anything of that nature.
It also works splendidly on many opponents you might encounter.
Now, of course, if your campaign revolves around dragon hunting, or fighting oder enemies equipped with mostly natural weapons... Yes, that is a problem.
No more than paladins not getting evildoers to smite or rangers getting favoured enemies to hack at, though. Unless you are willfully building your character completely onto a sidetrack, your DM should take such things into consideration when planning encounters. Players should get to use their shticks now and then.
It's not really "odd" enemies, it's nearly anything that's not Humanoid.
A Paladin without Smite and a Ranger without Favored Enemy are diminished in capacity, but they have spent nothing to gain that advantage. So it's really more a return to base level.
Meanwhile, the Disarmer has spent 3 attribute points and at least 2 Feats. He is permanently reduced in capacity against anything he's not able to disarm.
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I'd rather fight a balor reduced to two slams than a balor with anything with "vorpal" in the name.
Disarm may not be "optimal", but it's not that uncommon to see it used in a campaign, nor is it useless. It's not a great point for "See? Fighters don't suck!" but it is a pretty plausible scenario.