A 20th level fighter is bathing: how does he survive an attack by a 10th level party?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

501 to 550 of 755 << first < prev | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | next > last >>

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Zhangar wrote:
andreww wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Can't use immediate actions flat footed though, so the assassins prep'd with their pre-staggered pouncers and would still have it against the non-diviner. It also wouldn't help if a pre-Antimagic Field'd assassin closed in on the surprise round.
Non diviners get it with a trait, Defensive Strategist means you aren't considered flatfooted so can EFS. Contingency also lasts weeks per cast.

Huh, that's an Inner Sea gods religion trait. I'm going to guess most wizards don't worship Torag.

Of course, if your GM doesn't pay the slightest lick of attention to where things actually come from (remember, d20pfsrd strips out all setting specific requirements and prerequisites), more power to you?

...That moment when people enforce fluff requirements.

Clearly only worshipers of Torag are alert enough to react in the surprise round without being flatfooted.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

*shrugs* The fluff requirements are actually meant to be enforced; that's why they're even there. =P

The Inner Sea Gods religion traits are basically very minor divine boons being granted for your faith in that god, so the actual answer to your snarkiness is "sure." =P


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Only Elves have mastered the esoteric art of STABBING PEOPLE WITH POINTY OBJECTS!

Fluff requirements are dumb.


Now THERE'S a strawman. Seriously.

We are talking about a Campaign Setting specific trait, from a Campaign Setting book that actually has a Campaign Setting specific restriction.

Presuming that a GM might actually enforce that restriction is somehow completely unreasonable?

Edited: slightly for tone.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Aroden's Spellbane by it's very name is ALSO setting specific.

Spellbane won't stop the beholder eyes, the same way if it was wired for meteor swarm it wouldn't stop a fireball. It has to be specifically aligned to a spell, and Central Beholder Eye Cone isn't a spell.

==Aelryinth


1 person marked this as a favorite.

A DM might well be open to change a few fluff requirements. Just like a DM might well be open to discussing making spears one-handed.

It's a rather odd assumption to present that houseruling as any sort of obvious truism, though.


Zhangar wrote:

Now THERE'S a strawman. Seriously.

We are talking about a Campaign Setting specific trait, from a Campaign Setting book that actually has a Campaign Setting specific restriction.

Presuming that a GM might actually enforce that restriction is somehow completely unreasonable?

Edited: slightly for tone.

Unless the fluff restriction actually MAKES SENSE, it doesn't need to exist.

Dervish Dance is restricted to Sarenrae dervishes, but also to people who could learn from them. Makes sense, preserves flavor, but allows the mechanic to be utilized by more than a tiny sub-set of characters.

Meanwhile, nothing in that Trait's function has a damn thing to do with Torag. It's arbitrary. As arbitrary as the Feat I mentioned earlier.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

And it makes no sense at all that a spear cannot be used onehanded, given the fact that spear and shield was likely the most common arms combination throughout history.


@ Rynjin - Ah. That feat's totally a reference to Legolas. Heh. I approve of that being an elf feat. Because it's based on a thing an elf did in a movie to demonstrate how awesome elves are in the LotR universe. (Also, elves grow up using bows. If anything, there should be MORE elf-only bow feats.)

Does the dwarf-only feat chain that turns cleave into a standard action whirlwind attack also upset you?

Is your issue the fluff, or that the restriction exists at all?

(And actually, the Torag religion trait CAN be connected to Torag - it's about a worshiper of the God of Defensive Warfare studying so much defensive warfare it actually makes his reflexes better. Looking at nonmagical books actually giving you better reflexes/reaction time practically screams minor divine shenanigans to me. =P)

@ Aelrynth - yep, right out of Inner Sea Magic I think? Yep, Inner Sea Magic. A GM who isn't running Golarion would be well within his rights to saying "hell no" to the spell. (For the record, my samsaran wizard who had it WAS in a Golarion homebrew campaign.)

(Honestly, the spell's so OP that any GM would be within his rights to say "hell no" to it. But heh.)

@ Darkheyr - 3E actually had the one-handed spear as a simple weapon. Always been a little baffled that got taken out.


Erm, The one-handed spear - or rather, the shortspear, is still a simple one-handed weapon in Pathfinder.


Yes, the Dwarf Cleave Feats bother me too. Anything that can be achieved by training should not be race restricted. At worst, it should be like some of the newer ones (this race and anyone who associates WITH this race).


Aelryinth wrote:
Aroden's Spellbane by it's very name is ALSO setting specific.

Anything in the spell description says it only exists and/or can only be used in Golarion? Furthermore, what exactly stops someone else from inventing the exact same apell and naming it "Someone Else's Spellbane"? It's no more house-ruling than banning it. Admitedly, the GM can ban it... But that goes for literally anything and everything in the game!

Aelryinth wrote:

Spellbane won't stop the beholder eyes, the same way if it was wired for meteor swarm it wouldn't stop a fireball. It has to be specifically aligned to a spell, and Central Beholder Eye Cone isn't a spell.

==Aelryinth

This I agree. The Beholder's ability is not a spell... It might work on SLAs... But even that is pushing it.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Lemmy wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Aroden's Spellbane by it's very name is ALSO setting specific.

Anything in the spell description says it only exists and/or can only be used in Golarion? Furthermore, what exactly stops someone else from inventing the exact same apell and naming it "Someone Else's Spellbane"? It's no more house-ruling than banning it. Admitedly, the GM can ban it... But that goes for literally anything and everything in the game!

Aelryinth wrote:

Spellbane won't stop the beholder eyes, the same way if it was wired for meteor swarm it wouldn't stop a fireball. It has to be specifically aligned to a spell, and Central Beholder Eye Cone isn't a spell.

==Aelryinth

This I agree. The Beholder's ability is not a spell... It might work on SLAs... But even that is pushing it.

That just makes including it outside Golarion a house rule, Lem, and you can House Rule anything. The DM is as free to say no to it as he is any other piece of Golarion specific game stuff.

Or, he can adapt it in. But it's definitely not a core spell, and shouldn't be treated as if it was...nor treated as if it's one of the top 3 9th level spells every wizard seems to know...

==Aelryinth


I'm talking spears. Not shortspears. In fact, even normal spears are still too short to pull off something like a greek hoplite, or even their persian opponents.

It's easily changed. That NWN server I mentioned earlier? We changed normal spears to be onehanded without further adjustment and... not much happened, really. Those using spears before - by choice - might have picked up a shield, and that's about it. Those not using them before still won't. It's not a big issue.

However, I can't go to, say, a PFS game or a friend's table and assume that to fly over there as well. Same with traits. Same with non-elf arcane archers.

It's houseruling, plain and simple. Removing fluff restrictions from traits is no different.


Honestly, my wizard (when I played one) was a diviner and cast Contact Other Plane twice a day. Seriously, I have spell slots I can only use on divination, what else am I supposed to do with them? There's not exactly a wide selection at all levels (and only one at 9th). By level 20 I'm pretty sure I had at least 36 Int (18+5level+5tome+6headband+2 age or +2 race) and could make the intermediate diety check without the possibility of failure. The odds of a false positive (i.e. a lie that I would be ambushed followed by anything but the truth) was 4.76%, lower than my odds of missing an ambush entirely.

My line of questioning (from memory) was something like:
Am I going to be ambushed before I finish preparing spells again?
(yes)Is this ambush going to happen if I do not leave my demiplane? (I slept on a demiplane, and yes, I prepared plane shift twice a day and greater teleport at least once, I would never be without my gear at a minimum because I need that tuning fork)
(yes)Does this ambush present a credible threat to me? (to weed out random bandit attacks or similar)
(no)Is anyone I do not choose to bring with me going to be on this demiplane before I finish preparing spells again?
(if yes to last one)Are they a danger to me?

3 questions max.

So from there depends entirely on the answers to the above questions. If someone can reach me on my demiplane and poses a credible threat then I'll try to learn some more. Only one? More than three? Resistant or immune to electricity? (my in-combat contribution was generally dazing ball lightning) Rely heavily on magic? (I had at least one demiplane that was dead magic with golems for just this purpose)

If I'm adventuring then I'll ask if any enemies I face will be resistant or immune to electricity, if enemies who are resistant or immune to electricity are also resistant or immune to acid (elemental spell rod), and finally if the enemies who are resistant or immune to acid and eletricity have weak fort saves/will saves.

4 questions. Still have 3 left. Someone else can add anything I might have forgotten. The guy has 36 Int, he's much smarter than I am.

If I'm not going out then I ask questions about whatever I'm working on at the time. That's mostly fluff though.

Now, I will admit the quickened Cloudkill was not this guy. That was from staring at the wizard NPCs and trying to figure out what they could actually do. This guy would just disappear (and prepare an extra Contact Other Plane tomorrow to find out who they were working for, where he might find them, etc. to exact revenge).

His Contingency was tied to Mislead (with the trigger "I'm being ambushed"), so it's not a random bugout. But yes, I assume most wizards, naked, with no gear at all, and with no allies at all will escape as fast as possible rather than face someone in close-quarters combat. Especially if they know they're going to be ambushed. And as preparation is the wizard's strong suit, logically ambushes (for which you cannot normally prepare) would be their weakness. Unless, you know, there were spells that could tell you the future.


Which server, if I may?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

With all due respect Bob, but that wizard is a lot farther from any 'standard' than most fighter ideas other people have posed - but, actually, a good example for why I'm saying 'it depends'. Very fitting for a paranoid character knowing people are out to get him.

Tac: Server is silm.pw (which is also the website)
Old place, but originally german - we're actually translating and re-designing many old parts of it because the german NWN1 community is sadly rather dried out. We're pretty big on player involvement both from RP and technical side, including easy tools to upload your own areas.

It's Forgotten Realms based, Silver Marches. Feel free to look around, though it's not what I would call 'complete' by any stretch right now. Good place to get tinkering, though :)


Aelryinth wrote:
That just makes including it outside Golarion a house rule, Lem, and you can House Rule anything. The DM is as free to say no to it as he is any other piece of Golarion specific game stuff.

No, it doesn't. There is no rule saying that stuff designed for Golarion is limited to Golarion.

Aelryinth wrote:
Or, he can adapt it in. But it's definitely not a core spell, and shouldn't be treated as if it was...nor treated as if it's one of the top 3 9th level spells every wizard seems to know...

What rules specify what exactly is a "core spell"? And what rules specify that those spells are more common than others?There is literally no difference between "core spells" and non-core spells.


Darkheyr wrote:

Tac: Server is silm.pw (which is also the website)

Old place, but originally german - we're actually translating and re-designing many old parts of it because the german NWN1 community is sadly rather dried out. We're pretty big on player involvement both from RP and technical side, including easy tools to upload your own areas.

It's Forgotten Realms based, Silver Marches. Feel free to look around, though it's not what I would call 'complete' by any stretch right now. Good place to get tinkering, though :)

Cool! I'm trying to get into a server with Orthos (he's an admin for a Dalelands/Cormyr server), but, as a stay-at-home dad, my time is suuuuuuuuuuuuupeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrr limited.

(I also have ADD and whenever I do boot up NWN, I tend to get distracted and play Hordes instead...)

But it's a cool idea! I'll have to look at it at some point.

EDIT: looks awesome! :D

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Lemmy wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
That just makes including it outside Golarion a house rule, Lem, and you can House Rule anything. The DM is as free to say no to it as he is any other piece of Golarion specific game stuff.

No, it doesn't. There is no rule saying that stuff designed for Golarion is limited to Golarion.

Aelryinth wrote:
Or, he can adapt it in. But it's definitely not a core spell, and shouldn't be treated as if it was...nor treated as if it's one of the top 3 9th level spells every wizard seems to know...
What rules specify what exactly is a "core spell"? And what rules specify that those spells are more common than others?There is literally no difference between "core spells" and non-core spells.

Aaaand you're being willfully obtuse here, and that's all I'm going to say.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:
Aaaand you're being willfully obtuse here, and that's all I'm going to say.

Hah! Pot, meet kettle!

But I'm being totally serious. Please, someone... Anyone... Do point out a rule that says that anything is limited to Golarion games just because it's designed for it (sickles are designed for harvesting rice, but that doesn't stop them from being used as weapons). And the definition of "core spells". And the rule that says non-core spells are rarer.

You're free to arbitrarily decide which spells are more common in your games using what books in which they were first published as an excuse... But that's not a game rule, as far as I know.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

...how is my wizard far from standard? The only difference between my wizard and the superposition of every other wizard I see on these forums is that I actually say how I'm using divination to find out what I'm fighting. Also I committed to Divination instead of being both Divination and Conjuration simultaneously. Is it really so odd that the Divination wizard is an expert at knowing what's going to happen? Because that seems like it's almost the whole point.


No, it isn't. As said, it's a very fitting build for some concepts.

But surprising a build that is very much designed not to be... As mentioned earlier, an unarmed strike fighter is far less at a disadvantage than a Greatsword-wielding one, too.


Not in any hypothetical that I posted. Every single one ended with "and the fighter blows a Will save and loses". An unarmed fighter isn't any better in this scenario than a weapon fighter. They can deal more damage to the meatshield, so? They have two, maybe three saves in them before they go down. That "more damage" has to down the entire party in two turns.


Lemmy wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Aaaand you're being willfully obtuse here, and that's all I'm going to say.

Hah! Pot, meet kettle!

But I'm being totally serious. Please, someone... Anyone... Do point out a rule that says that anything is limited to Golarion games just because it's designed for it (sickles are designed for harvesting rice, but that doesn't stop them from being used as weapons). And the definition of "core spells". And the rule that says non-core spells are rarer.

You're free to arbitrarily decide which spells are more common in your games using what books in which they were first published as an excuse... But that's not a game rule, as far as I know.

Nice straw man you've got there. Be a shame if someone were to set it on fire.

The point advanced was that you cannot assume non-core material, and you cannot assume houserules like 'fluff requirements don't exist'.

In my experience, there were tons of 3.0/.5 DMs who banned you from using Eberron or FR material unless you were playing in that setting. When 3.5 opened up the archmage and red wizard to core, it was a big thing. And your experience might differ...but the assumption when you sit down at a table is not 'show me in the rules where I can't use this setting material'.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I am surprised this thread has gone on as long as it has.

But I agree with the folks who say the Fighter is screwed here.

The odds are just way too much stacked in the favor of casters in most scenarios.


@ Bob Bob Bob - Actually having all that is pretty cool. What sort of campaign were you playing in, that you had the time, resources, etc. to actually set up multiple custom demiplanes with individualized defenses?

Contact Other Plane - Yep, with all that you'd auto-pass the Int check for an intermediate deity, but you'd still have a 1 in 4 chance of getting bad intel from the spell.

Wow, Contact Other Plane is awful now that I'm looking at it again. (While not relevant against the L10 adventurers, it's also worth noting that the spell probably wouldn't warn you about any enemies running around with mind blank. But that'd be your GM's call.)

@ Kain - Nailed it.

Sovereign Court

Icyshadow wrote:

I am surprised this thread has gone on as long as it has.

But I agree with the folks who say the Fighter is screwed here.

The odds are just way too much stacked in the favor of casters in most scenarios.

If anything has to be learned from this thread, is that a fighter is only as good as his weapon of choice, which means investing in the +1 equivalent "called" weapon property is not a bad idea... especially a 20th level fighter, which has "weapon mastery" ability... something with a 18-20 base threat range, with the "keen" and "called" property... auto confirm crits... activate called property to get the weapon in your hand... then I'm giving a good chance of survival to that fighter if he's smart enough to get out of tub, shrug off any AoOs, and dispatch the casters ASAP...

Another thing to be learned from this thread: not a bad idea to make your fighter into an anti-caster from the get go (i.e. disruptive line of feats, etc.)

Edit: disruptive, spellbreaker, dodge, mobility, spring attack, combat reflex, combat patrol, pin down, teleport tactician (that's only 10 feats, and a human fighter has 10 feats by level 8...)

Edit 2: I know it's taboo at many tables, but give him a cleric buddy via Leadership, even if it's just to ensure a continuous protection from evil so as to stand a chance against mental control...


Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Not in any hypothetical that I posted. Every single one ended with "and the fighter blows a Will save and loses". An unarmed fighter isn't any better in this scenario than a weapon fighter. They can deal more damage to the meatshield, so? They have two, maybe three saves in them before they go down. That "more damage" has to down the entire party in two turns.

First off, they have merely to survive - not to kill their attackers.

Second, my only fighter I played in Pathfinder PF, not other d20 editions) to any extent was... a Drow. Just a commoner, but still, at 20 she has SR26, Iron Will and a racial +2 against many will save based spells. She was fairly quick on the initiative, had solid perception values, and actually several feats (and Fav Class boni) related to Disarm and Grapple - and Close Weapons as her second Weapon Training.

I'm not saying she's a perfect match here - all her Greatsword feats are wasted, for instance - and there are certainly other situations where she can be easily pinned down - open field with flying archers comes to mind - but that, again, is why I'm saying that "it depends".

I mean, I'm not saying your diviner sucks on a general base just because Mind Blank shuts down a huge swath of his power, either.

EDIT: I actually recall that Drow having trait(s) increasing her will save or will save vs charms / compulsions, too... Hmm. Too long ago.


Darkheyr wrote:
I mean, I'm not saying your diviner sucks on a general base just because Mind Blank shuts down a huge swath of his power, either.

To be honest I never even considered actually using divination spells as a diviner, so saying it loses a huge amount of power because of Mind Blank is mind boggling to me; it's all about that always going first in initiative and rolling in rerolls.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Again, people are assuming that Contact Other Plane gives answers about the future. Nowhere in the spell's description does it call this out. And, if we're talking about Golarion where prophecies do not come true, I would guess that this spell would definitely not give answers about things that have not happened.


Bob's diviner is heavy on the divination. Not saying he doesn't have other options still, but my fighter has other options beside her Greatsword as well.

The point is that singular situations (especially if as poorly defined as this one) are not very useful in making generalised statements.


Seannoss wrote:
Again, people are assuming that Contact Other Plane gives answers about the future.

It depends on how you word things. You can imply a lot about the future based on the present.

"Are people planning on trying to attack me today?" - YES
"Do they currently have a set time in mind?" - YES
"Does that time coincide with my daily bath?" - YES
"Are they well prepared?" - YES
"Does that preparation involve Anti-Magic Field" - NAH MAN YOU'RE GOOD (LOL I LIED)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:
Yes, the Dwarf Cleave Feats bother me too. Anything that can be achieved by training should not be race restricted. At worst, it should be like some of the newer ones (this race and anyone who associates WITH this race).

If the training is kept secret, sure it can. It can be even further restricted such as the secret moves of the Red Mantis Aaassins.


LazarX wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Yes, the Dwarf Cleave Feats bother me too. Anything that can be achieved by training should not be race restricted. At worst, it should be like some of the newer ones (this race and anyone who associates WITH this race).
If the training is kept secret, sure it can. It can be even further restricted such as the secret moves of the Red Mantis Assassins.

I'm hard pressed to think of any logical reason why every other civilization on Golarion is too dumb to think "DURR I COULD STAB IT WITH DA POINTY THING, RIGHT" or "Woah, if I MOVE after hitting someone I can hit SOMEONE ELSE. MIND BLOWN!".

The Red Mantis stuff at least has the justification of "They probably kill anyone who learns it and tries to pass it on" but even that's flimsy.

There is absolutely no reason why someone who spends most of their time fighting can't figure out a fighting style of their own.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Yes, the Dwarf Cleave Feats bother me too. Anything that can be achieved by training should not be race restricted. At worst, it should be like some of the newer ones (this race and anyone who associates WITH this race).
If the training is kept secret, sure it can. It can be even further restricted such as the secret moves of the Red Mantis Assassins.

I'm hard pressed to think of any logical reason why every other civilization on Golarion is too dumb to think "DURR I COULD STAB IT WITH DA POINTY THING, RIGHT" or "Woah, if I MOVE after hitting someone I can hit SOMEONE ELSE. MIND BLOWN!".

The Red Mantis stuff at least has the justification of "They probably kill anyone who learns it and tries to pass it on" but even that's flimsy.

There is absolutely no reason why someone who spends most of their time fighting can't figure out a fighting style of their own.

They do. Unless however extraordinary circumstances intervene, it tends to be a copy of a pre-existing style.


Rynjin wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Yes, the Dwarf Cleave Feats bother me too. Anything that can be achieved by training should not be race restricted. At worst, it should be like some of the newer ones (this race and anyone who associates WITH this race).
If the training is kept secret, sure it can. It can be even further restricted such as the secret moves of the Red Mantis Assassins.

I'm hard pressed to think of any logical reason why every other civilization on Golarion is too dumb to think "DURR I COULD STAB IT WITH DA POINTY THING, RIGHT" or "Woah, if I MOVE after hitting someone I can hit SOMEONE ELSE. MIND BLOWN!".

The Red Mantis stuff at least has the justification of "They probably kill anyone who learns it and tries to pass it on" but even that's flimsy.

There is absolutely no reason why someone who spends most of their time fighting can't figure out a fighting style of their own.

It's always rules, rules, rules, when discussing magic's supremacy over a fighter. But suggest that the rules (elf only, worshipper of Torag, whathaveyou) apply when it comes to getting in the way of a wizard's spell selection, or feat selection, or gear selection...then all of a sudden we're on to 'logically' and 'fluff'.

Where were these rules when it came to letting the poor fighter in the bath be an archetype or long term gear usage that might let him survive?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Maybe read the thread and you'll see the only thing that was consistently shot down is "The Fighter isn't buffed because the Fighter doesn't HAVE buffs". We ran scenarios based on him having archetypes (Martial Master rocks) and having highly having specific builds such as Disarm or Improvised Weapon based (he has maybe a 15% chance of surviving instead of zero!).

But the basic Fighter? He's screwed, 100%.

On top of that you clearly didn't even read the POST YOU'RE QUOTING because that has nothing to do with f*!~ing magic, it has to do with race restricted COMBAT FEATS being dumb.


You sound perturbed. Perhaps it is you who should read over the discussion, and note that the topic under discussion currently (feats and flavor) was brought up only due to a wizard being assumed to follow Torag, and the horror that followed questioning that assumption.

You'll not get me to argue against the fighter typically dying. But the parameters that are set against the fighter (no gear, no expectation of assassination attempt) are not the ones set against the wizard (no gear, complete and utter foreknowledge of assassination attempt and full spell slots to do with as he will).

Like I said, restrictions and rules, rules, rules, until the poor wizard is under attack. Then we want to make assumptions based on ignoring the fluff.

The fighter's elf-arrow trick won't save him. But no one would assume a given fighter has it regardless. The wizard though? He has every assumption in the world. No doubt he has numerology and arithmancy as well, because what self-respecting wizard wouldn't?


Kain Darkwind wrote:

You sound perturbed. Perhaps it is you who should read over the discussion, and note that the topic under discussion currently (feats and flavor) was brought up only due to a wizard being assumed to follow Torag, and the horror that followed questioning that assumption.

You'll not get me to argue against the fighter typically dying. But the parameters that are set against the fighter (no gear, no expectation of assassination attempt) are not the ones set against the wizard (no gear, complete and utter foreknowledge of assassination attempt and full spell slots to do with as he will).

Like I said, restrictions and rules, rules, rules, until the poor wizard is under attack. Then we want to make assumptions based on ignoring the fluff.

The fighter's elf-arrow trick won't save him. But no one would assume a given fighter has it regardless. The wizard though? He has every assumption in the world. No doubt he has numerology and arithmancy as well, because what self-respecting wizard wouldn't?

It's really easy for the Wizard to set up a few alarms if need be. Surprising any Caster is extremely difficult at high levels. Cut the Wizard's spell slots down to only 5th level and lower spells and he'd probably STILL win.

I wouldn't be calling a Fighter out on taking the Second Chance trait for another roll at a saving throw in case he fails either.

Double Standards? Nonsense. A naked Wizard has several means by which to prevent an ambush and be forewarned of it. Then he has several more means by which it is possible to escape. THEN he has several means by which to kill the ambushers as well.

Fighters have very very few options by comparison.

Martial Master- Grab a feat and try to unarmed fight. Fail a save and die.
Lore Warden- Maneuver it up. Fail a save and die.
Eldritch Guardian- Familiar stands guard and might be able to forewarn you. Is still armed in case a fight breaks out. Has a reroll but likely fails a save and dies.
Mutation Warrior- Can fly away. Mutagen is likely nearby for Natural Weapons. Likely fails a save and dies.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Darkheyr wrote:
Same with non-elf arcane archers. It's houseruling, plain and simple. Removing fluff restrictions from traits is no different.

Non-elf arcane archers is absolutely not houseruling (in Pathfinder, it would have been in 3.5).

Removing a fluff restriction is indeed a houserule, but the key word is restriction. A restriction is a rule, regardless of why it is implemented. Fluff not actually reflected in the rules text, OTOH, can safely be ignore - no houserules needed.

_
glass.

Liberty's Edge

Scavion wrote:

Martial Master- Grab a feat and try to unarmed fight. Fail a save and die.

Lore Warden- Maneuver it up. Fail a save and die.
Eldritch Guardian- Familiar stands guard and might be able to forewarn you. Is still armed in case a fight breaks out. Has a reroll but likely fails a save and dies.
Mutation Warrior- Can fly away. Mutagen is likely nearby for Natural Weapons. Likely fails a save and dies.

I don't think probability works the way you think it works, sir.


Shisumo wrote:
Scavion wrote:

Martial Master- Grab a feat and try to unarmed fight. Fail a save and die.

Lore Warden- Maneuver it up. Fail a save and die.
Eldritch Guardian- Familiar stands guard and might be able to forewarn you. Is still armed in case a fight breaks out. Has a reroll but likely fails a save and dies.
Mutation Warrior- Can fly away. Mutagen is likely nearby for Natural Weapons. Likely fails a save and dies.
I don't think probability works the way you think it works, sir.

50% odds of fighter survival. Either he will, or he won't.

Liberty's Edge

chaoseffect wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
Scavion wrote:

Martial Master- Grab a feat and try to unarmed fight. Fail a save and die.

Lore Warden- Maneuver it up. Fail a save and die.
Eldritch Guardian- Familiar stands guard and might be able to forewarn you. Is still armed in case a fight breaks out. Has a reroll but likely fails a save and dies.
Mutation Warrior- Can fly away. Mutagen is likely nearby for Natural Weapons. Likely fails a save and dies.
I don't think probability works the way you think it works, sir.
50% odds of fighter survival. Either he will, or he won't.

Even odds are not, by definition, likely to only go one way.


Shisumo wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
Scavion wrote:

Martial Master- Grab a feat and try to unarmed fight. Fail a save and die.

Lore Warden- Maneuver it up. Fail a save and die.
Eldritch Guardian- Familiar stands guard and might be able to forewarn you. Is still armed in case a fight breaks out. Has a reroll but likely fails a save and dies.
Mutation Warrior- Can fly away. Mutagen is likely nearby for Natural Weapons. Likely fails a save and dies.
I don't think probability works the way you think it works, sir.
50% odds of fighter survival. Either he will, or he won't.
Even odds are not, by definition, likely to only go one way.

50% odds of it likely to only go one way. Either it will, or it won't.


It's even odds he fails the FIRST save.

Given that there's just about no way he takes down everyone in one round, his odds drop significantly from there.


I'd say the fighter has a pretty good chance of killing the mage before he has to make a second save if he's built as a disarm/Martial Master sort of character. And Improved Iron Will makes it decent odds he'll make that first save. As such, I'd put his odds a bit above 15%.

Of course, the cleric has a good chance of screwing this scenario up if he comes with a lot of good Will-based spells. I like to think the cleric will be busy trying to bring the mage back up, though.


Clerics have easy access to some DEVASTATING spells that can put the Fighter out of commission pretty quick.

A combo of Suffocation (Staggered, no save. Also save or die) and whatever the Wizard tosses out comes to mind as an obvious one.

Edit: Wait that's just my Agent of the Grave. Stand by for a better example.

Edit 2: Eh, just swap it around, maybe. Suffocation from the Wiz, Hold Person, Greater Command, or something from the Cleric (we can get nastier depending on Domain).

If the Cleric has a brass pair he can use Plane Shift.

Or if he doesn't, a Reach Plane Shift.


This is mostly an unrelated question, but I'm not gonna go starting another "fighter bash" thread for it.

How would a typical geared up fighter fare against a druid? I know druids aren't quite as nuts in this edition, but how nuts are they?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Druids get Pounce.

Fighters don't.

Druids have about the same attack bonuses and damage or better, and don't really need to spend money on an AoMF because of Greater Magic Fang.

They also get a second attacker as a class feature. If nothing else, free Flanking.

They also have full 9th level casting to fall back on when they're not holding their own in melee.

501 to 550 of 755 << first < prev | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / A 20th level fighter is bathing: how does he survive an attack by a 10th level party? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.