| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Can't use immediate actions flat footed though, so the assassins prep'd with their pre-staggered pouncers and would still have it against the non-diviner. It also wouldn't help if a pre-Antimagic Field'd assassin closed in on the surprise round.Non diviners get it with a trait, Defensive Strategist means you aren't considered flatfooted so can EFS. Contingency also lasts weeks per cast.Huh, that's an Inner Sea gods religion trait. I'm going to guess most wizards don't worship Torag.
Of course, if your GM doesn't pay the slightest lick of attention to where things actually come from (remember, d20pfsrd strips out all setting specific requirements and prerequisites), more power to you?
...That moment when people enforce fluff requirements.
Clearly only worshipers of Torag are alert enough to react in the surprise round without being flatfooted.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
*shrugs* The fluff requirements are actually meant to be enforced; that's why they're even there. =P
The Inner Sea Gods religion traits are basically very minor divine boons being granted for your faith in that god, so the actual answer to your snarkiness is "sure." =P
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Only Elves have mastered the esoteric art of STABBING PEOPLE WITH POINTY OBJECTS!
Fluff requirements are dumb.
Now THERE'S a strawman. Seriously.
We are talking about a Campaign Setting specific trait, from a Campaign Setting book that actually has a Campaign Setting specific restriction.
Presuming that a GM might actually enforce that restriction is somehow completely unreasonable?
Edited: slightly for tone.
Aroden's Spellbane by it's very name is ALSO setting specific.
Spellbane won't stop the beholder eyes, the same way if it was wired for meteor swarm it wouldn't stop a fireball. It has to be specifically aligned to a spell, and Central Beholder Eye Cone isn't a spell.
==Aelryinth
Now THERE'S a strawman. Seriously.
We are talking about a Campaign Setting specific trait, from a Campaign Setting book that actually has a Campaign Setting specific restriction.
Presuming that a GM might actually enforce that restriction is somehow completely unreasonable?
Edited: slightly for tone.
Unless the fluff restriction actually MAKES SENSE, it doesn't need to exist.
Dervish Dance is restricted to Sarenrae dervishes, but also to people who could learn from them. Makes sense, preserves flavor, but allows the mechanic to be utilized by more than a tiny sub-set of characters.
Meanwhile, nothing in that Trait's function has a damn thing to do with Torag. It's arbitrary. As arbitrary as the Feat I mentioned earlier.
@ Rynjin - Ah. That feat's totally a reference to Legolas. Heh. I approve of that being an elf feat. Because it's based on a thing an elf did in a movie to demonstrate how awesome elves are in the LotR universe. (Also, elves grow up using bows. If anything, there should be MORE elf-only bow feats.)
Does the dwarf-only feat chain that turns cleave into a standard action whirlwind attack also upset you?
Is your issue the fluff, or that the restriction exists at all?
(And actually, the Torag religion trait CAN be connected to Torag - it's about a worshiper of the God of Defensive Warfare studying so much defensive warfare it actually makes his reflexes better. Looking at nonmagical books actually giving you better reflexes/reaction time practically screams minor divine shenanigans to me. =P)
@ Aelrynth - yep, right out of Inner Sea Magic I think? Yep, Inner Sea Magic. A GM who isn't running Golarion would be well within his rights to saying "hell no" to the spell. (For the record, my samsaran wizard who had it WAS in a Golarion homebrew campaign.)
(Honestly, the spell's so OP that any GM would be within his rights to say "hell no" to it. But heh.)
@ Darkheyr - 3E actually had the one-handed spear as a simple weapon. Always been a little baffled that got taken out.
Erm, The one-handed spear - or rather, the shortspear, is still a simple one-handed weapon in Pathfinder.
Yes, the Dwarf Cleave Feats bother me too. Anything that can be achieved by training should not be race restricted. At worst, it should be like some of the newer ones (this race and anyone who associates WITH this race).
Aroden's Spellbane by it's very name is ALSO setting specific.
Anything in the spell description says it only exists and/or can only be used in Golarion? Furthermore, what exactly stops someone else from inventing the exact same apell and naming it "Someone Else's Spellbane"? It's no more house-ruling than banning it. Admitedly, the GM can ban it... But that goes for literally anything and everything in the game!
Spellbane won't stop the beholder eyes, the same way if it was wired for meteor swarm it wouldn't stop a fireball. It has to be specifically aligned to a spell, and Central Beholder Eye Cone isn't a spell.
==Aelryinth
This I agree. The Beholder's ability is not a spell... It might work on SLAs... But even that is pushing it.
Aroden's Spellbane by it's very name is ALSO setting specific.Anything in the spell description says it only exists and/or can only be used in Golarion? Furthermore, what exactly stops someone else from inventing the exact same apell and naming it "Someone Else's Spellbane"? It's no more house-ruling than banning it. Admitedly, the GM can ban it... But that goes for literally anything and everything in the game!
This I agree. The Beholder's ability is not a spell... It might work on SLAs... But even that is pushing it.Spellbane won't stop the beholder eyes, the same way if it was wired for meteor swarm it wouldn't stop a fireball. It has to be specifically aligned to a spell, and Central Beholder Eye Cone isn't a spell.
==Aelryinth
That just makes including it outside Golarion a house rule, Lem, and you can House Rule anything. The DM is as free to say no to it as he is any other piece of Golarion specific game stuff.
Or, he can adapt it in. But it's definitely not a core spell, and shouldn't be treated as if it was...nor treated as if it's one of the top 3 9th level spells every wizard seems to know...
==Aelryinth
Which server, if I may?
That just makes including it outside Golarion a house rule, Lem, and you can House Rule anything. The DM is as free to say no to it as he is any other piece of Golarion specific game stuff.
No, it doesn't. There is no rule saying that stuff designed for Golarion is limited to Golarion.
Or, he can adapt it in. But it's definitely not a core spell, and shouldn't be treated as if it was...nor treated as if it's one of the top 3 9th level spells every wizard seems to know...
What rules specify what exactly is a "core spell"? And what rules specify that those spells are more common than others?There is literally no difference between "core spells" and non-core spells.
Tac: Server is silm.pw (which is also the website)
Old place, but originally german - we're actually translating and re-designing many old parts of it because the german NWN1 community is sadly rather dried out. We're pretty big on player involvement both from RP and technical side, including easy tools to upload your own areas.It's Forgotten Realms based, Silver Marches. Feel free to look around, though it's not what I would call 'complete' by any stretch right now. Good place to get tinkering, though :)
Cool! I'm trying to get into a server with Orthos (he's an admin for a Dalelands/Cormyr server), but, as a stay-at-home dad, my time is suuuuuuuuuuuuupeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrr limited.
(I also have ADD and whenever I do boot up NWN, I tend to get distracted and play Hordes instead...)
But it's a cool idea! I'll have to look at it at some point.
EDIT: looks awesome! :D
That just makes including it outside Golarion a house rule, Lem, and you can House Rule anything. The DM is as free to say no to it as he is any other piece of Golarion specific game stuff.No, it doesn't. There is no rule saying that stuff designed for Golarion is limited to Golarion.
Or, he can adapt it in. But it's definitely not a core spell, and shouldn't be treated as if it was...nor treated as if it's one of the top 3 9th level spells every wizard seems to know...What rules specify what exactly is a "core spell"? And what rules specify that those spells are more common than others?There is literally no difference between "core spells" and non-core spells.
Aaaand you're being willfully obtuse here, and that's all I'm going to say.
==Aelryinth
Aaaand you're being willfully obtuse here, and that's all I'm going to say.
Hah! Pot, meet kettle!
But I'm being totally serious. Please, someone... Anyone... Do point out a rule that says that anything is limited to Golarion games just because it's designed for it (sickles are designed for harvesting rice, but that doesn't stop them from being used as weapons). And the definition of "core spells". And the rule that says non-core spells are rarer.
You're free to arbitrarily decide which spells are more common in your games using what books in which they were first published as an excuse... But that's not a game rule, as far as I know.
Aaaand you're being willfully obtuse here, and that's all I'm going to say.Hah! Pot, meet kettle!
But I'm being totally serious. Please, someone... Anyone... Do point out a rule that says that anything is limited to Golarion games just because it's designed for it (sickles are designed for harvesting rice, but that doesn't stop them from being used as weapons). And the definition of "core spells". And the rule that says non-core spells are rarer.
You're free to arbitrarily decide which spells are more common in your games using what books in which they were first published as an excuse... But that's not a game rule, as far as I know.
Nice straw man you've got there. Be a shame if someone were to set it on fire.
The point advanced was that you cannot assume non-core material, and you cannot assume houserules like 'fluff requirements don't exist'.
In my experience, there were tons of 3.0/.5 DMs who banned you from using Eberron or FR material unless you were playing in that setting. When 3.5 opened up the archmage and red wizard to core, it was a big thing. And your experience might differ...but the assumption when you sit down at a table is not 'show me in the rules where I can't use this setting material'.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am surprised this thread has gone on as long as it has.
But I agree with the folks who say the Fighter is screwed here.
The odds are just way too much stacked in the favor of casters in most scenarios.
@ Bob Bob Bob - Actually having all that is pretty cool. What sort of campaign were you playing in, that you had the time, resources, etc. to actually set up multiple custom demiplanes with individualized defenses?
Contact Other Plane - Yep, with all that you'd auto-pass the Int check for an intermediate deity, but you'd still have a 1 in 4 chance of getting bad intel from the spell.
Wow, Contact Other Plane is awful now that I'm looking at it again. (While not relevant against the L10 adventurers, it's also worth noting that the spell probably wouldn't warn you about any enemies running around with mind blank. But that'd be your GM's call.)
@ Kain - Nailed it.
|
I am surprised this thread has gone on as long as it has.
But I agree with the folks who say the Fighter is screwed here.
The odds are just way too much stacked in the favor of casters in most scenarios.
If anything has to be learned from this thread, is that a fighter is only as good as his weapon of choice, which means investing in the +1 equivalent "called" weapon property is not a bad idea... especially a 20th level fighter, which has "weapon mastery" ability... something with a 18-20 base threat range, with the "keen" and "called" property... auto confirm crits... activate called property to get the weapon in your hand... then I'm giving a good chance of survival to that fighter if he's smart enough to get out of tub, shrug off any AoOs, and dispatch the casters ASAP...
Another thing to be learned from this thread: not a bad idea to make your fighter into an anti-caster from the get go (i.e. disruptive line of feats, etc.)
Edit: disruptive, spellbreaker, dodge, mobility, spring attack, combat reflex, combat patrol, pin down, teleport tactician (that's only 10 feats, and a human fighter has 10 feats by level 8...)
Edit 2: I know it's taboo at many tables, but give him a cleric buddy via Leadership, even if it's just to ensure a continuous protection from evil so as to stand a chance against mental control...
I mean, I'm not saying your diviner sucks on a general base just because Mind Blank shuts down a huge swath of his power, either.
To be honest I never even considered actually using divination spells as a diviner, so saying it loses a huge amount of power because of Mind Blank is mind boggling to me; it's all about that always going first in initiative and rolling in rerolls.
Again, people are assuming that Contact Other Plane gives answers about the future. Nowhere in the spell's description does it call this out. And, if we're talking about Golarion where prophecies do not come true, I would guess that this spell would definitely not give answers about things that have not happened.
Again, people are assuming that Contact Other Plane gives answers about the future.
It depends on how you word things. You can imply a lot about the future based on the present.
"Are people planning on trying to attack me today?" - YES
"Do they currently have a set time in mind?" - YES
"Does that time coincide with my daily bath?" - YES
"Are they well prepared?" - YES
"Does that preparation involve Anti-Magic Field" - NAH MAN YOU'RE GOOD (LOL I LIED)
Yes, the Dwarf Cleave Feats bother me too. Anything that can be achieved by training should not be race restricted. At worst, it should be like some of the newer ones (this race and anyone who associates WITH this race).If the training is kept secret, sure it can. It can be even further restricted such as the secret moves of the Red Mantis Assassins.
I'm hard pressed to think of any logical reason why every other civilization on Golarion is too dumb to think "DURR I COULD STAB IT WITH DA POINTY THING, RIGHT" or "Woah, if I MOVE after hitting someone I can hit SOMEONE ELSE. MIND BLOWN!".
The Red Mantis stuff at least has the justification of "They probably kill anyone who learns it and tries to pass it on" but even that's flimsy.
There is absolutely no reason why someone who spends most of their time fighting can't figure out a fighting style of their own.
Yes, the Dwarf Cleave Feats bother me too. Anything that can be achieved by training should not be race restricted. At worst, it should be like some of the newer ones (this race and anyone who associates WITH this race).If the training is kept secret, sure it can. It can be even further restricted such as the secret moves of the Red Mantis Assassins.I'm hard pressed to think of any logical reason why every other civilization on Golarion is too dumb to think "DURR I COULD STAB IT WITH DA POINTY THING, RIGHT" or "Woah, if I MOVE after hitting someone I can hit SOMEONE ELSE. MIND BLOWN!".
The Red Mantis stuff at least has the justification of "They probably kill anyone who learns it and tries to pass it on" but even that's flimsy.
There is absolutely no reason why someone who spends most of their time fighting can't figure out a fighting style of their own.
It's always rules, rules, rules, when discussing magic's supremacy over a fighter. But suggest that the rules (elf only, worshipper of Torag, whathaveyou) apply when it comes to getting in the way of a wizard's spell selection, or feat selection, or gear selection...then all of a sudden we're on to 'logically' and 'fluff'.
Where were these rules when it came to letting the poor fighter in the bath be an archetype or long term gear usage that might let him survive?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe read the thread and you'll see the only thing that was consistently shot down is "The Fighter isn't buffed because the Fighter doesn't HAVE buffs". We ran scenarios based on him having archetypes (Martial Master rocks) and having highly having specific builds such as Disarm or Improvised Weapon based (he has maybe a 15% chance of surviving instead of zero!).
But the basic Fighter? He's screwed, 100%.
On top of that you clearly didn't even read the POST YOU'RE QUOTING because that has nothing to do with f*!~ing magic, it has to do with race restricted COMBAT FEATS being dumb.
You sound perturbed. Perhaps it is you who should read over the discussion, and note that the topic under discussion currently (feats and flavor) was brought up only due to a wizard being assumed to follow Torag, and the horror that followed questioning that assumption.
You'll not get me to argue against the fighter typically dying. But the parameters that are set against the fighter (no gear, no expectation of assassination attempt) are not the ones set against the wizard (no gear, complete and utter foreknowledge of assassination attempt and full spell slots to do with as he will).
Like I said, restrictions and rules, rules, rules, until the poor wizard is under attack. Then we want to make assumptions based on ignoring the fluff.
The fighter's elf-arrow trick won't save him. But no one would assume a given fighter has it regardless. The wizard though? He has every assumption in the world. No doubt he has numerology and arithmancy as well, because what self-respecting wizard wouldn't?
You sound perturbed. Perhaps it is you who should read over the discussion, and note that the topic under discussion currently (feats and flavor) was brought up only due to a wizard being assumed to follow Torag, and the horror that followed questioning that assumption.
You'll not get me to argue against the fighter typically dying. But the parameters that are set against the fighter (no gear, no expectation of assassination attempt) are not the ones set against the wizard (no gear, complete and utter foreknowledge of assassination attempt and full spell slots to do with as he will).
Like I said, restrictions and rules, rules, rules, until the poor wizard is under attack. Then we want to make assumptions based on ignoring the fluff.
The fighter's elf-arrow trick won't save him. But no one would assume a given fighter has it regardless. The wizard though? He has every assumption in the world. No doubt he has numerology and arithmancy as well, because what self-respecting wizard wouldn't?
It's really easy for the Wizard to set up a few alarms if need be. Surprising any Caster is extremely difficult at high levels. Cut the Wizard's spell slots down to only 5th level and lower spells and he'd probably STILL win.
I wouldn't be calling a Fighter out on taking the Second Chance trait for another roll at a saving throw in case he fails either.
Double Standards? Nonsense. A naked Wizard has several means by which to prevent an ambush and be forewarned of it. Then he has several more means by which it is possible to escape. THEN he has several means by which to kill the ambushers as well.
Fighters have very very few options by comparison.
Martial Master- Grab a feat and try to unarmed fight. Fail a save and die.
Lore Warden- Maneuver it up. Fail a save and die.
Eldritch Guardian- Familiar stands guard and might be able to forewarn you. Is still armed in case a fight breaks out. Has a reroll but likely fails a save and dies.
Mutation Warrior- Can fly away. Mutagen is likely nearby for Natural Weapons. Likely fails a save and dies.
|
Martial Master- Grab a feat and try to unarmed fight. Fail a save and die.
Lore Warden- Maneuver it up. Fail a save and die.
Eldritch Guardian- Familiar stands guard and might be able to forewarn you. Is still armed in case a fight breaks out. Has a reroll but likely fails a save and dies.
Mutation Warrior- Can fly away. Mutagen is likely nearby for Natural Weapons. Likely fails a save and dies.
I don't think probability works the way you think it works, sir.
I don't think probability works the way you think it works, sir.Martial Master- Grab a feat and try to unarmed fight. Fail a save and die.
Lore Warden- Maneuver it up. Fail a save and die.
Eldritch Guardian- Familiar stands guard and might be able to forewarn you. Is still armed in case a fight breaks out. Has a reroll but likely fails a save and dies.
Mutation Warrior- Can fly away. Mutagen is likely nearby for Natural Weapons. Likely fails a save and dies.
50% odds of fighter survival. Either he will, or he won't.
|
|
50% odds of fighter survival. Either he will, or he won't.I don't think probability works the way you think it works, sir.Martial Master- Grab a feat and try to unarmed fight. Fail a save and die.
Lore Warden- Maneuver it up. Fail a save and die.
Eldritch Guardian- Familiar stands guard and might be able to forewarn you. Is still armed in case a fight breaks out. Has a reroll but likely fails a save and dies.
Mutation Warrior- Can fly away. Mutagen is likely nearby for Natural Weapons. Likely fails a save and dies.
Even odds are not, by definition, likely to only go one way.
Even odds are not, by definition, likely to only go one way.50% odds of fighter survival. Either he will, or he won't.I don't think probability works the way you think it works, sir.Martial Master- Grab a feat and try to unarmed fight. Fail a save and die.
Lore Warden- Maneuver it up. Fail a save and die.
Eldritch Guardian- Familiar stands guard and might be able to forewarn you. Is still armed in case a fight breaks out. Has a reroll but likely fails a save and dies.
Mutation Warrior- Can fly away. Mutagen is likely nearby for Natural Weapons. Likely fails a save and dies.
50% odds of it likely to only go one way. Either it will, or it won't.
It's even odds he fails the FIRST save.
Given that there's just about no way he takes down everyone in one round, his odds drop significantly from there.
I'd say the fighter has a pretty good chance of killing the mage before he has to make a second save if he's built as a disarm/Martial Master sort of character. And Improved Iron Will makes it decent odds he'll make that first save. As such, I'd put his odds a bit above 15%.
Of course, the cleric has a good chance of screwing this scenario up if he comes with a lot of good Will-based spells. I like to think the cleric will be busy trying to bring the mage back up, though.
Clerics have easy access to some DEVASTATING spells that can put the Fighter out of commission pretty quick.
A combo of Suffocation (Staggered, no save. Also save or die) and whatever the Wizard tosses out comes to mind as an obvious one.
Edit: Wait that's just my Agent of the Grave. Stand by for a better example.
Edit 2: Eh, just swap it around, maybe. Suffocation from the Wiz, Hold Person, Greater Command, or something from the Cleric (we can get nastier depending on Domain).
If the Cleric has a brass pair he can use Plane Shift.
Or if he doesn't, a Reach Plane Shift.
This is mostly an unrelated question, but I'm not gonna go starting another "fighter bash" thread for it.
How would a typical geared up fighter fare against a druid? I know druids aren't quite as nuts in this edition, but how nuts are they?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Druids get Pounce.
Fighters don't.
Druids have about the same attack bonuses and damage or better, and don't really need to spend money on an AoMF because of Greater Magic Fang.
They also get a second attacker as a class feature. If nothing else, free Flanking.
They also have full 9th level casting to fall back on when they're not holding their own in melee.