How would you make the toughest character you could manage without giving him/her even the slightest hint of magical ability? No spells, no supernatural abilities, no magic items, etc.
Obviously they aren't going to be as powerful as a character who has access to magic, but do the best you can without it.
This is just theoretical. I'm interested in seeing what people come up with.
Invulnerable Barbarian with Superstition and stuff. "All" you miss out from a normal* barb is totems and spell sunder. So d12 hit die, great saves, DR/-, damage boost, and cool EX abilities from rage powers.
I have to agree with Chess Pwn. Just be an Ogre or some other stupidly good race and its off to the races.
Swashbucklers are entirely mundane. They don't even have the option of grabbing (Su) or (Sp) abilities, so just build it how you normally would, minus the magic gear.
Some of the new technology-based stuff is very powerful, even without magic, but some might say it's just magic by another name.
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Investigator is considered non-magical since it needs an SLA to qualify for Arcane strike. It's Alchemy does not qualify for magical feats. But it might be considered magical under your definition.
But I will be honest the Barbarian they mentioned is one of the toughest out there.
Slayers and Gunslingers would come in after the barbarian.
Brawler and then Monk would then come after that.
Swashbuckler, fighter, and rogue then take up the rear.
A fighter would actually be very good. The big thing about fighters is their ridiculous number of feats and weapon/armor use, so they generally have a good AC and do good damage. They don't really use magic abilities, so the only thing you would be missing would be gear and buffs.
Would the use of a mutagen count as magic?
Toughest is likely invulnerable rager.
Though if you seek something none magical that is as hard to kill I could argue a elf, human, half elf, or aasimar oracle with 10 charisma (no spells) using outer rift mystery and the elven favored class bonus is HARD to kill. At level 20 you would have a +16 armor bonus to AC and a sizeable bonus to constitution (+4 I think). Without any magical items, spells, or enchanted armor that +16 is probably as good as your AC can hope for.
With a shield or some feats you might even be able to make your defenses even better.
I think you would be wasting an oracle.
Would the use of a mutagen count as magic?
Depends. Some, like Rag Doll Mutagen, are listed as supernatural or spell-like abilities, but otherwise I would say no. It does say that Alchemists don't actually cast spells.
I still think the good ole fighter is overlooked here.
That's what I said!
Would the use of a mutagen count as magic?Depends. Some, like Rag Doll Mutagen, are listed as supernatural or spell-like abilities, but otherwise I would say no. It does say that Alchemists don't actually cast spells.
I was thinking more of the Brawler and Fighter archetypes that use them.
But I will be honest the Barbarian they mentioned is one of the toughest out there.
Slayers and Gunslingers would come in after the barbarian.
Brawler and then Monk would then come after that.
Swashbuckler, fighter, and rogue then take up the rear.
I'm very curious how that gunslinger will do vs a swashbuckler with the Step Up feat.
Also not really sure how your monk is gonna beat a swash.
And to everyone mentioning alchemists, Mutagen, Bombs, and Alchemy are all (Su) abilities.
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honestly, IMO, the toughest/strongest pure melee character with 0 magic IMO is the swashbuckler, over half his damage comes from his level, class abilities, and feats, he can make 4+ parry attempts a turn and a pretty decent to hit, he actually imo has the best or equal damage of all them at 20, except maybe a damage focused fighter
you are bound to parry some attacks, and THEN get to hit back.
at 20-
including fighter specialization feats, using a longsword-
assume a 22 dex (18+4)
damage would be- 1d8+6+4+4+20(precision)+12(if piranha striking) per hit.
to hit would be: +33(assuming weapon focus/greater weapon focus, MWK weapon)
vs a barbarian assuming str 22 (30 when raging)
damage: 2d6+15+18 (power attack)
to hit would be- assuming MWK weapon and weapon focus +32 when raging. (20+10+1weapon focus+1 MWK)
It is a good race either way imo, the avg damage of the swashbuckler per hit is- 51 the barbarian is-41. we can assume the swashbuckler has the fighter DR penetration feats (not much other way to do that without magic) so if the barb did take all 3 DR/1 from raging the swashbuckler beats him out on damage by 7 per hit. crits and other things not included, with a fairly high chance of blocking the barbarians attack all together, and hitting him for free because of it.
the swashbuckler will also have a MUCH higher AC than the barb, and probably a higher AC than just about anyone save a defensive monk.
I did not add in barbarian mighty blow, or the swashbuckler's swift action double precise damage option as IMO this is a wash.
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Zen archer monk will destroy the swash as well as a grapple build.
The gunslinger would do fine against him just depends who goes first and how many shots are fired, if there is a crit...ext ext.
I said they are tougher because saves are an important part of being tough. Wisdom based classes will naturally have a better will save.
Swashbuckler are ok but it suffers from a few problems I dont like. Only good reflex saves on a frontline class. The damage is good at least but precision damage isn't the most reliable damage much like sneak attack.
But im just looking at everything they bring and not putting them against each other or in any specific situation. Not wanting to play the what if game but this is statistically stronger game.
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swashbuckler has several "paladin's divine grace, yes please" save boosts a day, so the saves being worse are questionable (unless you are fighting A LOT)
a grapple build would be hit or miss, 20 in escape artist is hard to keep a hold up, specifically being able to take 10 on that skill in combat.
with no way to actually deflect arrows, if the zen archer catches the swash at range, then yes, but that goes for almost any other class, at least if the monk has to move he shoots A LOT less. if its in a building Iunno,
precision will effect -MOST- things in the game, even without that he has some nifty tools,
gunslinger would have the hardest time against the swash and the barb, excluding the ZAM the swash having a high Touch ac, the barb just having pure hp and DR.
against creatures, that's a whole new barrel of biscuits, ZAM will usually have the best tools for it though, sense a lot of high level creatures fly around like little pansies. (though fly by creatures will be fine for the swashbuckler :P)
Grapple build doesn't stop the swash from full-attacking.
Gunslinger better be ready to provoke twice every time he fires.
Not sure how Zen Archer would do. Probably not great once his bow has been disarmed.
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Again I was not pitting them against each other but more of the world its going to be pitted against. Monsters with special abilities like Fear auras and what not.
If you want to pit a Swashbuckler against a Monk here are a few things to consider....
even taking 10 to get a 30 to escape artist is not enough to escape a true grapple build. Being pinned does stop you from full attacking as well as taking away the entire dex bonus of a dex based class. He is limited to trying to escape from a grapple specialized character in holding you in place...I've made some that reach +30 by level 10. By 20 I should be pushing pretty hard on the grapple check. This doesn't include my ability to take other maneuvers like disarm and trip. So if I grapple, Pin, disarm, and Pound there is nothing the swashbuckler will do but lay there and take it like a prom date. ANd if I'm really fed up with him a single stunning fist or quivering palm shuts down a melee class with a crappy fortitude save.
Now about the Zen archer verse Swashbuckler
Good luck keeping up with the monks movements to disarm that bow and he can still full attack without provoking with the Swashbuckler on him if he can even catch his superior speed. Don't forget for 1 ki point I can also increase my bows range by 50 feet. That is 160 Feet of Range to start the fight from as well as 90ft of movement to escape and maintain the range advantage. A swashbuckler can only charge or double move up to 60ft and the Zen archer isn't going close distance for some lame Ripose and Parry.
swashbuckler has several "paladin's divine grace, yes please" save boosts a day, so the saves being worse are questionable (unless you are fighting A LOT)
First play a swashbuckler and see how much that actually works...its actually a horrible ability. It hardly ever works out...about 1/5 attempts work.
Also since there is NO MAGIC your cha will never be above a 20....more like a 14-16....so your +3 is not going to do much for you when your barraged by save after save.
I was thinking more of the Brawler and Fighter archetypes that use them.Would the use of a mutagen count as magic?Depends. Some, like Rag Doll Mutagen, are listed as supernatural or spell-like abilities, but otherwise I would say no. It does say that Alchemists don't actually cast spells.
Particularly the fighter archetype with the extraordinary ability of flight through wings. That gives you a lot of options, either as a melee or ranged character.
Again I was not pitting them against each other but more of the world its going to be pitted against. Monsters with special abilities like Fear auras and what not.
If you want to pit a Swashbuckler against a Monk here are a few things to consider....
even taking 10 to get a 30 to escape artist is not enough to escape a true grapple build. Being pinned does stop you from full attacking as well as taking away the entire dex bonus of a dex based class. He is limited to trying to escape from a grapple specialized character in holding you in place...I've made some that reach +30 by level 10. By 20 I should be pushing pretty hard on the grapple check. This doesn't include my ability to take other maneuvers like disarm and trip. So if I grapple, Pin, disarm, and Pound there is nothing the swashbuckler will do but lay there and take it like a prom date. ANd if I'm really fed up with him a single stunning fist or quivering palm shuts down a melee class with a crappy fortitude save.
Now about the Zen archer verse Swashbuckler
Good luck keeping up with the monks movements to disarm that bow and he can still full attack without provoking with the Swashbuckler on him if he can even catch his superior speed. Don't forget for 1 ki point I can also increase my bows range by 50 feet. That is 160 Feet of Range to start the fight from as well as 90ft of movement to escape and maintain the range advantage. A swashbuckler can only charge or double move up to 60ft and the Zen archer isn't going close distance for some lame Ripose and Parry.
swashbuckler has several "paladin's divine grace, yes please" save boosts a day, so the saves being worse are questionable (unless you are fighting A LOT)First play a swashbuckler and see how much that actually works...its actually a horrible ability. It hardly ever works out...about 1/5 attempts work.
Also since there is NO MAGIC your cha will never be above a 20....more like a 14-16....so your +3 is not going to do much for you when your barraged by...
I did not realize you were assuming 20th level characters. The zen archer does not have enough movement for the "Run Away!" strategy to work until 12th level. By the way, he can't use ki (it's supernatural) but that's not all that relevant, range increments are just a -2 anyway.
As for vs the grappler, I guess that largely depends on how your GM rules on the "are combat maneuvers considered melee attacks" debate. If he says they are, the swash can parry and the grappler will have a VERY hard time getting the pin before he is dead.
Some of the new technology-based stuff is very powerful, even without magic, but some might say it's just magic by another name.
it basically is, magic is just the ability to manipulate energy in very specific ways, technology is the ability to create things that can manipulate energy in very specific ways.
invulnerable barbarian with superstition, it's pretty much the guaranteed easiest tank of a tank...
It also depends what we mean by "toughest".
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As for vs the grappler, I guess that largely depends on how your GM rules on the "are combat maneuvers considered melee attacks" debate. If he says they are, the swash can parry and the grappler will have a VERY hard time getting the pin before he is dead.
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
My GM rules it as you can take few actions...only the ones described in the pinned condition.
1: Cast non somatic/material component spells with a HUGE negative....seriously not even worth trying.2: Escape artist checks (but your still denied dex cause your PINNED trying to escapse)
3:Combat maneuver Checks- MY DM rules these are not attacks or it would say attack like in grappled condition description.
A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks
My DM figures they would have included attack into the list of things a pinned creature could do.
But DMs can choose to make the sky purple and add CHA to damage when using a female natural attacker. SHe beats you with her pretty. But mine typically makes logical ones.
Zen archers are disallowed by terms of the OP. Ki Pool is a supernatural ability, as are ki arrows, trick shots, and pretty much all the ki-based archery stuff the zen archer gets. OP wants non-magical characters, not just martials. Zen archers are disqualified for being magical.
My GM rules it as you can take few actions...only the ones described in the pinned condition.
No, my point was if grapple attempts can be parried, or pin attempts can be parried, then the swash is unlikely to ever become pinned in the first place, at least not before the grappled is dead. But it's somewhat of a rules grey area. I concede that once he is pinned, he better pray to the god of setting-do that he can roll a couple 6s.
Since we're talking completely non-magical, Barbarians are also banned. Also all magical Rogue talents. Also the Ninja. This could arguably eliminate the Cavalier and/or the Gunslinger. We're left with:
* Fighter
* Samurai? Cavalier?
* Subset of Rogue
* Any others?
Swashbucklers have no magical abilities whatsoever.
But, my impression of the challenge is that classes with (Su), (Sp), or casting are allowed so long as none of those abilities are ever used.
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I think my dwarven invulnerable rager 18/ unbreakable fighter is the toughest I've been able to make. 136 hp and dr 6 at 7th level with no magic effects. Average hp per level and a base 18 con score. It really was a fun character in PDA, but a half Orc with tenacious survivor in a home game is just about the toughest character in the game.
Seems like Barbarian and Swashbuckler are the favourites at the moment.
honestly, IMO, the toughest/strongest pure melee character with 0 magic IMO is the swashbuckler, over half his damage comes from his level, class abilities, and feats, he can make 4+ parry attempts a turn and a pretty decent to hit, he actually imo has the best or equal damage of all them at 20, except maybe a damage focused fighterAlso the Daring Champion, who has hilariously better damage.
Are we including Mythic? There's a /ton/ of EX Mythic stuff.
Mythic Power is (Su) and not something mythic characters can avoid getting, so no, mythic would not an option.
Since we're talking completely non-magical, Barbarians are also banned. Also all magical Rogue talents. Also the Ninja. This could arguably eliminate the Cavalier and/or the Gunslinger. We're left with:
* Fighter
* Samurai? Cavalier?
* Subset of Rogue
* Any others?
The only non-(Ex) Barbarian abilities are optional rage powers, so it's not Barbarians that are banned, just certain rage powers.
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Easily the most powerful character I've seen in all of Pathfinder had NO HINT of magic.
It was a Dwarven Wild Rager 2 / Martial Artist x.
The Wild Rager was to gain an extra attack. Martial artist gave bonuses to attacks and AC, and could get past ANY flavor of DR reduction (or hardness). I was shocked to find out this actually lets him PUNCH THROUGH WALLS OF FORCE LIKE THEY WERE NOTHING.
Torwards the end of the campaign (ROTRL, run straight from the book) he was (granted, with bard help and some buffs) attacking in the +50 range on his primary attacks, generally delving out about 400 damage (the campaign ended @ level 17).
He was considered the party powerhouse; above all of the other members (each of which had magic... the rest of the party was a Rage-Inquisitor, a Sky Cleric, a Bard, and a Wizard). His saves were pretty much "only a 1 will fail" too; Monk + high Wis/Dex/Con + Dwarf. Even his armor class was 40ish (and I don't think he had any special buffs for that).
Can I take Warder and say something other than "I full attack" every turn?
I'm assuming 3PP is off-limits as well.
I'd say Primal Spell Eating Untouchable Blood Rager. Make it a Half Orc with a double axe. Don't worry about the two weapon fighting just use it as two handed weapon. That way you can take Orc Weapon Expertise feat with Disruptor option. Be an Arcane bloodline for disruptive blood rage and get the disruptive feat at 6th level as bonus feat. Pick the witch hunter and superstitious at 4th level and 8th pick reckless abandon and spell sunder and finally at level 16 grab 2 improved DR. You'll want Combat expertise for the Stalwart. You take -1 to hit for +1 AC that is converted to DR +1/- which is converted to +1 fast healing. Reckless abandon give +1 to hit for -1 AC canceling the penalty to hit from combat expertise. At 20th level you could fast healing 19 (5 DR normal, +2 for Improved DR, +12 for Improved Stalwart) and Spell Resistance 32.
This is a magic killer!
Wouldn't the Zen Archer be banned under Gluttony's parameters? It has plenty of Su abilities under its belt.
Invulnerable Barbarian with Superstition and stuff. "All" you miss out from a normal* barb is totems and spell sunder. So d12 hit die, great saves, DR/-, damage boost, and cool EX abilities from rage powers.
The DR will lessen your reliance on magical healing too. But... You'll still need magic healing. There comes a comes a point in a barbarian's career when he will be stone dead the moment he leaves his rage. Thats when you'll want some fast, potent healing available.
I would say either half orc(for the toothy bite attack) invulnerable rager barbarian with superstitious, beast totem, and stalwart.
At level 20 I can also see a Rogue(Scout & Thug) 10/Barbarian (Invulnerable rager)10. Beast totem for pounce, superstitious for will saves. Rogue can sneak attack on a charge and get shatter defenses, and the fear based rage power. Combine with Offensive defense, and crippling strike.
Invulnerable Barbarian with Superstition and stuff. "All" you miss out from a normal* barb is totems and spell sunder. So d12 hit die, great saves, DR/-, damage boost, and cool EX abilities from rage powers.The DR will lessen your reliance on magical healing too. But... You'll still need magic healing. There comes a comes a point in a barbarian's career when he will be stone dead the moment he leaves his rage. Thats when you'll want some fast, potent healing available.
Healing of any sort is unavailable to any of these characters.
A lot of people seem to be mignoring the parameters. No magic of any sort.
If your character has:
-Spells
-Spell-Like Abilities
-Supernatural Abilities
-Magic items
He doesn't work.
So "but the Barbarian doesn't have a way to heal himelf" is a moot factor: Nobody does. The only things that matter in this challenge HP wise are your ability to mitigate HP damage, or avoid it entirely.
Though, actually, via Renewed Vigor and Regnerative Vigor (both Ex), the Barbarian IS one of the only options with healing available to him in-class.
I would say either half orc(for the toothy bite attack) invulnerable rager barbarian with superstitious, beast totem, and stalwart.
At level 20 I can also see a Rogue(Scout & Thug) 10/Barbarian (Invulnerable rager)10. Beast totem for pounce, superstitious for will saves. Rogue can sneak attack on a charge and get shatter defenses, and the fear based rage power. Combine with Offensive defense, and crippling strike.
Beast Totem is supernatural, so that's a no-go.
Though, actually, via Renewed Vigor and Regnerative Vigor (both Ex), the Barbarian IS one of the only options with healing available to him in-class.
Grand Marshal is another option for a completely-mundane class that can get fast healing.