| 19 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
For the purposes of a swashbuckler's Opportune Parry and Riposte, is a combat maneuver considered a "melee attack" and therefore able to be parried?
No. They can be attempted without any ready weapons, and therefore are not melee attacks.
Melee Attacks: With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in their descriptions. With a typical reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't strike adjacent foes (those within 5 feet).
I don't really feel we need multiple threads on this, but having a thread specifically dedicated to this question might help get a response on it.
I say yes they count. "Combat maneuvers are attack rolls", according to the SRD. They are melee and they are subject to any effects that affect attack rolls.
Otherwise you can't parry an unarmed attack either, because those have a separate entry from what you're quoting.
I think having one single question in the thread is a good chance to get it answered, so lets have the debate in this one.
The fact that combat maneuvers utilize an attack roll does not mean they are a "melee attack." While I agree that they are generally made in melee, and are an attack, I think that Parry and Riposte is speaking to the game term "melee attack."
Melee attacks are defined as an attack roll plus your attack bonus made with a melee weapon. Either as a standard action, or if you have multiple attacks, as part of a full-round full attack action.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think having one single question in the thread is a good chance to get it answered, so lets have the debate in this one.
The fact that combat maneuvers utilize an attack roll does not mean they are a "melee attack." While I agree that they are generally made in melee, and are an attack, I think that Parry and Riposte is speaking to the game term "melee attack."
Melee attacks are defined as an attack roll plus your attack bonus made with a melee weapon. Either as a standard action, or if you have multiple attacks, as part of a full-round full attack action.
By that logic you cannot parry Vital Strike against you. It is a special action and not a melee attack.
|
By that logic you cannot parry Vital Strike against you. It is a special action and not a melee attack.
Actually, it's not a special action. A vital strike can be made when you are making a single attack with the attack action.
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
Bolded for emphasis.
is a combat maneuver considered a "melee attack"It's certainly not a "ranged attack", unless you're playing that one Fighter archetype.
Or Shield Champ brawler!
If I were GMing, I'd allow it for trip/disarm/sunder, but no other maneuvers. Since they can be used in place of a melee attack in a full attack action, it makes sense that they're able to be parried.
I agree that interpretation is balanced and makes sense.
I think by RAW that combat maneuvers are separate from melee attacks and therefore cannot be parried.
Bolded for emphasis.
By that logic you cannot parry Vital Strike against you. It is a special action and not a melee attack.Actually, it's not a special action. A vital strike can be made when you are making a single attack with the attack action.
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
You are right, I mis-remembered the Vital Strike/ Spring Attack interaction.
|
If I were GMing, I'd allow it for trip/disarm/sunder, but no other maneuvers. Since they can be used in place of a melee attack in a full attack action, it makes sense that they're able to be parried.I agree that interpretation is balanced and makes sense.
I think by RAW that combat maneuvers are separate from melee attacks and therefore cannot be parried.
Arguably. However, I think that the same logic applies that lets you use weapon fineses for trip/disarm/sunder.
From "Common Terms":
An attack in hand-to-hand combat. A basic melee attack is a d20 roll + base attack bonus + Strength modifier + any related or magical bonuses.
It is uncontroversial that a combat maneuver is an attack, so it fits that description. But, that glossary may not be "official" enough.
Affected issues:
1) Can Whirlwind Attack or Spring Attack be used to make combat maneuvers?
2) Can a magus using Spellstrike deliver a spell through a trip, disarm, or sunder maneuver?
3) Can a skirmisher use various hunter tricks (Rattling Strike, Sic 'Em, Upending Strike, Vengeance Strike) with combat maneuvers?
4) Can Crane Wing be used against a combat maneuver?
5) Can a Two-Handed Fighter use Piledriver with a disarm, trip, or sunder maneuver?
6) Can a Flowing Monk use Redirection against an opponent who uses a combat maneuver against an ally? (He can uncontroversially use this ability against an opponent who uses a combat maneuver against the monk himself.)
There's more, but that's a sampling.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Performing a Combat Maneuver: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action. Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver. If your target is immobilized, unconscious, or otherwise incapacitated, your maneuver automatically succeeds (treat as if you rolled a natural 20 on the attack roll). If your target is stunned, you receive a +4 bonus on your attack roll to perform a combat maneuver against it.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. , so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
(Emphasis added by me.)
Arguably. However, I think that the same logic applies that lets you use weapon fineses for trip/disarm/sunder.If I were GMing, I'd allow it for trip/disarm/sunder, but no other maneuvers. Since they can be used in place of a melee attack in a full attack action, it makes sense that they're able to be parried.I agree that interpretation is balanced and makes sense.
I think by RAW that combat maneuvers are separate from melee attacks and therefore cannot be parried.
Combat maneuvers state:When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects.
Weapon finesse lets you swap str for dex on attack rolls. That is why weapon finesse applies to combat maneuvers made using the weapon.
You can make a combat maneuver without any weapon however. You cannot make a melee attack without using something.
A character could have combat expertise and improved trip feats. Have no weapons ready or available, not have Improved Unarmed Strike, and make a trip attempt, which would not provoke. Melee attacks require a weapon.
(Emphasis added by me.)Performing a Combat Maneuver: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action. Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver. If your target is immobilized, unconscious, or otherwise incapacitated, your maneuver automatically succeeds (treat as if you rolled a natural 20 on the attack roll). If your target is stunned, you receive a +4 bonus on your attack roll to perform a combat maneuver against it.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. , so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
This section discusses all of the various standard maneuvers you can perform during combat other than normal attacks, casting spells, or using other class abilities. Some of these special attacks can be made as part of another action (such as an attack) or as an attack of opportunity.
The fact that it uses an attack roll doesn't make it a melee attack.
Successful attacks deal damage.
Damage
If your attack succeeds, you deal damage. The type of weapon used determines the amount of damage you deal.
Combat maneuvers do not require a weapon to be used. Melee attacks do require a weapon. Combat maneuvers do not deal damage on a successful attack roll, melee attacks deal damage.
From "Common Terms":
An attack in hand-to-hand combat. A basic melee attack is a d20 roll + base attack bonus + Strength modifier + any related or magical bonuses.It is uncontroversial that a combat maneuver is an attack, so it fits that description. But, that glossary may not be "official" enough.
Affected issues:
1) Can Whirlwind Attack or Spring Attack be used to make combat maneuvers?
2) Can a magus using Spellstrike deliver a spell through a trip, disarm, or sunder maneuver?
3) Can a skirmisher use various hunter tricks (Rattling Strike, Sic 'Em, Upending Strike, Vengeance Strike) with combat maneuvers?
4) Can Crane Wing be used against a combat maneuver?
5) Can a Two-Handed Fighter use Piledriver with a disarm, trip, or sunder maneuver?
6) Can a Flowing Monk use Redirection against an opponent who uses a combat maneuver against an ally? (He can uncontroversially use this ability against an opponent who uses a combat maneuver against the monk himself.)There's more, but that's a sampling.
1) Only combat maneuvers which are allowed to be performed "in place of a melee attack". I.e. trip/disarm/sunder.
2) "Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack."Because it is "as part of a melee attack" and trip/disarm/sunder can be done in place of a melee attack. Yes, but only for those 3. You can't spellstrike through your sword on a bullrush. Bull rush doesn't use a weapon at all. Weapon focus never helps with bull rush attempts.
3) Rattling Strike (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a free action before he makes a melee attack. If the attack hits, the target is shaken for 1d4 rounds.
Sic 'Em (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a swift action. His animal companion makes one melee attack against an adjacent creature. The animal companion must be able to see and hear the ranger to make this attack.
Upending Strike (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a free action just before he makes a melee attack. If the attack hits, he may make a free trip combat maneuver against the target.
Vengeance Strike (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as an immediate action when an enemy adjacent to him hits an ally with a melee or ranged attack. The ranger can make a single melee attack at his highest base attack bonus against the creature who attacked his ally.
All of these are a melee attack. You could instead choose to disarm/trip/sunder in place of the melee attack.
4) No. Crane wing requires a melee attack being made against you. Combat maneuvers are not melee attacks. The +4 dodge bonus to AC wouldn't help boost your CMD anyway. Even if it was allowed, it would provide no benefit.
5) Yes, because those can be done "in place of a melee attack"
6) Same wording is used on both, "an opponent that the flowing monk threatens and that attacks him/an ally". So yes, combat maneuvers are attacks in the general sense, not in the specific action sense. I think that redirection was worded in the general sense of "any attack" and not the specific "melee attack". A flowing monk would be able to redirect an enemy wizard who defensively cast scorching ray and targetted the monk with the ranged touch attack also.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some combat maneuvers substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full-attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity. Others are used as a separate action.
It seems pretty clear that disarm, sunder, and trip should be treated like melee attacks. For other combat maneuvers it is more ambiguous.
Parrying a bull rush might not make a lot of sense. Parrying an attempt to disarm shouldn't be controversial in the slightest.
I'll concede that disarm/sunder/trip substitute for and should be treated as melee attacks.
6) Same wording is used on both, "an opponent that the flowing monk threatens and that attacks him/an ally". So yes, combat maneuvers are attacks in the general sense, not in the specific action sense. I think that redirection was worded in the general sense of "any attack" and not the specific "melee attack". A flowing monk would be able to redirect an enemy wizard who defensively cast scorching ray and targetted the monk with the ranged touch attack also.
The text from Redirection:
Redirection (Ex): At 1st level, as an immediate action, a flowing monk can attempt a reposition or trip combat maneuver against a creature that the flowing monk threatens and that attacks him. If the combat maneuver is successful, the attacker is sickened for 1 round (Reflex DC = 10 + 1/2 the monk's level + monk's Wisdom modifier to halve the duration), plus 1 additional round at 4th level and for every four levels afterward (to a maximum of 6 rounds at 20th level). The monk gains a +2 bonus on the reposition or trip combat maneuver check and the save DC for redirection increases by 2 if the attacker is using Power Attack or is charging when attacking him. The benefit increases to a +4 bonus and an increase of the saving throw by 4 if both apply.
At 4th level, a flowing monk can use redirection against an opponent that the flowing monk threatens and that attacks an ally with a melee attack. At 8th level, a flowing monk can make both a reposition and a trip maneuver as part of a single immediate action with this ability. At 12th level, a flowing monk can use redirection against any opponent that attacks him in melee, even if the flowing monk is not threatening the opponent who attacks him. A flowing monk can use this ability once per day per monk level, but no more than once per round. This ability replaces stunning fist.
So, the monk can uncontroversially use Reposition on someone trying to grapple him (since a grapple is an attack.) However, if the opponent tries to grapple the monk's ally, the question is whether that is a melee attack and therefore whether the monk can use Redirection.
The text from Redirection:
So, the monk can uncontroversially use Reposition on someone trying to grapple him (since a grapple is an attack.) However, if the opponent tries to grapple the monk's ally, the question is whether that is a melee attack and therefore whether the monk can use Redirection.Redirection (Ex): At 1st level, as an immediate action, a flowing monk can attempt a reposition or trip combat maneuver against a creature that the flowing monk threatens and that attacks him. If the combat maneuver is successful, the attacker is sickened for 1 round (Reflex DC = 10 + 1/2 the monk's level + monk's Wisdom modifier to halve the duration), plus 1 additional round at 4th level and for every four levels afterward (to a maximum of 6 rounds at 20th level). The monk gains a +2 bonus on the reposition or trip combat maneuver check and the save DC for redirection increases by 2 if the attacker is using Power Attack or is charging when attacking him. The benefit increases to a +4 bonus and an increase of the saving throw by 4 if both apply.
At 4th level, a flowing monk can use redirection against an opponent that the flowing monk threatens and that attacks an ally with a melee attack. At 8th level, a flowing monk can make both a reposition and a trip maneuver as part of a single immediate action with this ability. At 12th level, a flowing monk can use redirection against any opponent that attacks him in melee, even if the flowing monk is not threatening the opponent who attacks him. A flowing monk can use this ability once per day per monk level, but no more than once per round. This ability replaces stunning fist.
I see it now. I would say no, you can't reposition when an enemy uses non-melee attack combat maneuvers on an ally as written. They could fix that by simply deleting the "with a melee attack" part of the sentence to match the ability for when the monk himself is attacked.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
(Emphasis added by me.)Performing a Combat Maneuver: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action. Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver. If your target is immobilized, unconscious, or otherwise incapacitated, your maneuver automatically succeeds (treat as if you rolled a natural 20 on the attack roll). If your target is stunned, you receive a +4 bonus on your attack roll to perform a combat maneuver against it.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. , so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
This section discusses all of the various standard maneuvers you can perform during combat other than normal attacks, casting spells, or using other class abilities. Some of these special attacks can be made as part of another action (such as an attack) or as an attack of opportunity.The fact that it uses an attack roll doesn't make it a melee attack.
Even if we accept that as true, that doesn't account for everything I bolded. In particular, this sentence from the Combat Maneuver rules:
"These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver."See? Nothing about "attack roll", simply "attack". You use an "attack" to perform the maneuver.
No. They can be attempted without any ready weapons, and therefore are not melee attacks.
Unarmed strikes are melee attacks. Slam attacks are melee attacks. Both are conducted without manufactured weapons.
No. They can be attempted without any ready weapons, and therefore are not melee attacks.Unarmed strikes are melee attacks. Slam attacks are melee attacks. Both are conducted without manufactured weapons.
If you don't have IUS, but have combat expertise and improved trip, then you can perform trip attacks without provoking and without a -4 non-proficiency penalty, because trip attacks do not require weapons to attempt them.
Even if we accept that as true, that doesn't account for everything I bolded. In particular, this sentence from the Combat Maneuver rules:
"These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver."
See? Nothing about "attack roll", simply "attack". You use an "attack" to perform the maneuver.
They are "attacks" in the sense that you are trying to negatively affect an enemy.
They are not attacks in that on success you roll damage.
If your attack succeeds, you deal damage. The type of weapon used determines the amount of damage you deal.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
They are "attacks" in the sense that you are trying to negatively affect an enemy.Even if we accept that as true, that doesn't account for everything I bolded. In particular, this sentence from the Combat Maneuver rules:
"These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver."
See? Nothing about "attack roll", simply "attack". You use an "attack" to perform the maneuver.
So the line I quoted means that bonuses applied to combat maneuvers "must be applicable to the weapon or used to perform the maneuver"?
I don't know if I've ever seen a character option that granted a bonus to my attempts to negatively affect an enemy.
They are "attacks" in the sense that you are trying to negatively affect an enemy.Even if we accept that as true, that doesn't account for everything I bolded. In particular, this sentence from the Combat Maneuver rules:
"These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver."
See? Nothing about "attack roll", simply "attack". You use an "attack" to perform the maneuver.So the line I quoted means that bonuses applied to combat maneuvers "must be applicable to the weapon or used to perform the maneuver"?
I don't know if I've ever seen a character option that granted a bonus to my attempts to negatively affect an enemy.
That line is simply there to cover for non-manufactured weapon attacks. Such as a sunder being performed with a slam attack. "Slam" is not a weapon, it is a natural attack.
But you just said that maneuvers aren't really attacks.
If they are performed with a weapon or attack (such as a slam) then bonuses to that weapon (or attack) are included. For example, tripping with a whip is performed with the whip, and weapon focus (whip) provides a bonus on the trip. Sunder performed with a slam would benefit from weapon specialization (slam).
There are multiple uses of "attack" in the combat chapter. There is attack, which on success results in damage. There is also the general english meaning of attack. "Weapon or attack" is to cover for non-weapon attacks that can have bonuses. Combat maneuvers themselves are not attacks, but some of them (trip/disarm/sunder) can be performed with weapons/attacks, and sunder requires it (otherwise what damage do you do?)
All combat maneuvers are clearly and explicitly considered "attacks". The question is if they are considered "melee attacks".
All combat maneuvers are clearly and explicitly considered "attacks". The question is if they are considered "melee attacks".
Thanks for restating that clearly.
To restate the last point above, we know of two categories of attacks for sure: melee and ranged. The question would be if there is a third that would include some (or all) combat maneuvers. A grapple attempt doesn't seem to exactly be a melee attack, but it is clearly an attack of some kind. Conversely a disarm or trip seems quite similar, in most ways functionally identical, to a melee attack.
It is an attack and it is performed at melee range so I'd say that qualifies it as a melee attack so long as you don't leverage some special exception allowing you to perform a maneuver as a ranged attack. This, naturally, leads to some hilarious results as you'd be able to parry an overrun maneuver attempt. On a more serious note, it is quite reminiscent of various fighting movies to see fighter A try to trip fighter B but fighter B kicks it away.
The damage section of the combat rules states that if your attack is successful then you do damage. Combat maneuvers do not do damage, therefore they are not a "melee attack" in the same sense as attacking with a greatsword is.
Sundering does damage.
I earlier conceded that trip/sunder/disarm are melee attacks as they can take the place of a melee attack.
But Trip/Disarm don't deal damage.
Maybe they should and we've all been doing it wrong this whole time.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
....This, naturally, leads to some hilarious results as you'd be able to parry an overrun maneuver attempt. ...
Would bullfighting be best simulated by a parry vs. improved overrun?
How would you determine damage for those maneuvers?
By following the damage section of the combat rules?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Are combat maneuvers, attacks? Yes.
What kind of attacks are there? Well, if it requires an attack roll, then it's either melee, or ranged.
So, when you perform a combat maneuver, which is an attack, it must be either ranged, or melee.
Without special abilities or equipment, combat maneuvers cannot be performed as a ranged attack, so they must be performed as a melee attack.
Are combat maneuvers, attacks? Yes.
What kind of attacks are there? Well, if it requires an attack roll, then it's either melee, or ranged.
So, when you perform a combat maneuver, which is an attack, it must be either ranged, or melee.
Without special abilities or equipment, combat maneuvers cannot be performed as a ranged attack, so they must be performed as a melee attack.
There is the standard action:attack(melee) which when successful deals damage. Combat maneuvers are not this.
Combat maneuvers are an attack which is done at melee distance, so they are "melee attacks" but they are not equivalent to a standard action:attack(melee).
|
|
There is the standard action:attack(melee) which when successful deals damage. Combat maneuvers are not this.
Combat maneuvers are an attack which is done at melee distance, so they are "melee attacks" but they are not equivalent to a standard action:attack(melee).
Why not?
Is a ranged attack with a net, no longer a ranged attack, because it deals no damage?
What about melee touch attacks, which are melee attacks, that target touch AC?
Do they stop being melee attacks, if the intent is to not deal damage, but say, create a penalty?
Attacks are made with weapons. You don't make a bull rush check with your longsword. You simply make the combat maneuver check. Same with grapple, overrun, dirty trick, drag, reposition, and steal. No weapon is used, so what exactly are you parrying?
I'll say it again, I agree that disarm/trip/sunder are melee attacks, as they use weapons, specifically call out "attack" in their text, and can be done in place of other melee attacks.
Attacks are made with weapons. You don't make a bull rush check with your longsword. You simply make the combat maneuver check. Same with grapple, overrun, dirty trick, drag, reposition, and steal. No weapon is used, so what exactly are you parrying?
You're parrying a limb, exactly the same way that you'd parry an unarmed strike.
Attacks are made with weapons. You don't make a bull rush check with your longsword. You simply make the combat maneuver check. Same with grapple, overrun, dirty trick, drag, reposition, and steal. No weapon is used, so what exactly are you parrying?You're parrying a limb, exactly the same way that you'd parry an unarmed strike.
Unarmed strike is a weapon. Weapon focus (unarmed strike) wouldn't apply to your bull rush. So why can you parry a bull rush the same as an unarmed strike?
Additionally, parry and riposte if successful causes the attack to miss. But combat maneuvers are not decided on a "hit/miss" system. They are decided on a success/fail. So can a parry and riposte change a combat maneuver from a "success" to a "miss"?
|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
In Pathfinder there are only three different types of d20 rolls.
Attacks, Saves, and Checks.
If you search Sean K Reynolds's posts, you'll see he references this more than once.
So, what is a Combat Maneuver?
Is it a Save? No.
Is it a Check? No.
Is it an Attack? As Jiggy bolded multiple times, a Combat Maneuver is an Attack.
And, so, if the particular Combat Maneuver is being made in melee, it is a melee attack, and so can be parried.
It's as simple as that.