How to make the Boss last!


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I run a Forgotten Realm Campaign, whit a group that dos a fair amount of damage. They are 4 melee players that each do 100-160 in the round (And 1 witch that mostly buff/debuff). So to make the boss monsters they encounter, last more that a few rouds, I often make them buff up their AC whit potions and give then the Advanced Creature Templates.

The problem is that some of the players get frustratet, then they have problems whit hitting the boss. One of the players asked if I can insted just higher the hit point instead (I all ready prety much give the Boss max hp).

So I came up whit this Templates:

Mini Boss (+1 CR): +2 AC, Saves og SR*. +5 DR*. x2 Hp.

Boss (+2 CR): +4 AC, Saves og SR*. +5 DR*. x3 Hp.

Big Boss (+3 CR): +6 AC, Saves og SR*. +5 DR*. x4 Hp.

* Only if they have DR/SR allready.

Dos any have tried this? if so, that are your experince whit it?

Grand Lodge

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Truthfully, to have a boss last more than a single round one of the best ways of doing it is have them in an unreachable location while underlings wittle down the party then walk in an go "i'm scary" "rawr" and when they have spent of their larger damage dealing abilites it makes it last a bit longer, though you run the risk of TPKing the party with a late boss arrival.

Silver Crusade

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I frequently double, triple, and even sometimes quadruple boss-type monster HP. I usually accompany this with lowering the monster's damage (around 2/3 of normal). Given that, I still advise you take steps to delay the PCs ability to apply their action to the monster. Use terrain, use other tasks that take priority, or just use minions. Simply making the PCs use their actions on anything but attacking the monster will help tremendously.


If the boss is beatable it'll be to easy 4v1. Regardless of the damage really. You have 4 turns for one of his. A really boss should have lots of minions with him to make it hard.

Paizo Employee

What I Do:
Named enemies I double their hit points and provide them some ability to increase damage by 50%. Then award double XP for them, because mechanically that's two monsters wearing a funny suit.

Boss enemies I quadruple and provide them with abilities that come out to around +150% damage. Make sure to spread that around with swift actions and AoEs or you'll get a lot of dead PCs. They get quadruple XP.

The trick is that they're very weak to save or suck effects. If your group doesn't use those, you're set. If they do, you might have to work that part out on your own.

I've found players back off from the save or suck if I do, as a GM. Nobody wants to be stunned for 2d4 rounds or spend the whole fight paralyzed.

Your Templates:
Your templates won't solve the problems of players missing all the time. The boosts to AC you're suggesting will make the bosses harder to hit than a normal monster of the higher CR, so that's probably not what you want.

As a test, look at one of the buffed bosses you've been using. Reduce its AC by 4 and double its HP. That should give you about the same resilience without as many misses.

Without any more changes, your players will generally have more fun with that boss than one with higher AC.

Cheers!
Landon


I do use alot of minors to even out the Action Economy, an do use terrain (Im a big fan of Alexanders "GM's Guide to Creating Challenging Encounters"), but at level 8 the players often counter this whit fly or Dimension Door, usual the partys Synthesist Summoner attack the Boss head one, while the others take care of "Trash Mobs".

I do like that the boss have a little better AC that others of his kind, there for the AC bonus in the Templats, but not so much that they cant hit it. The last Boss i put up, i had to give the boss a AC so high that they needed to roll 18 to hit it, but this was to make the witch shine whit his evil eye debuff.


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I may be misunderstanding, but it seems that your overall issue is Boss fights are either too easy or too hard. There's a common issue with action economy, where 4 players vs 1 boss equal 4 turns vs 1 turn.

Take a look at the GM's Guide to Challenging Encounters thread and associated Google doc. Alexander Augunas repeats some of what others have said about action economy and breaks encounter design down into very clear elements.

Given what sounds like your interest in a single boss, the things to consider are things that take away, minimize or split the action economy of the group. You can do this in a number of ways:

Blocking line of sight while giving the opponent a way around it (Fog & Fogcutting Lenses, or peep holes in walls).

Blocking or hampering movement (pits, chasms, ability to earthwalk, fly, etc). If the party flies, think about giving your Boss a way to affect winds. For example, give him a home base with constant hurricane force winds throughout - no flying without significant fly skill checks.

Providing special defensive gear/abilities that will reduce (but not totally neutralize) some of the key capabilities of one or more party members - A scroll of Spell Resistance or even Shield of Law (if you've got chaotic characters) can make it tough for the casters. Or the classic Boss use of a scroll of Protection from Energy, for the energy type to which he/she's vulnerable.

Provide minions - this is a standard response, but may not fit given your focus.

Consider including skill check associated mechanisms/effects that require split attention by the party. For example, a couple of arcane mechanisms giving off blasts of energy on a cycle, which, if left uninterrupted, will kill the party/cure the boss, gives you something else to divide the parties efforts. Someone's got to figure out how to turn each one off, while others battle the big bad.

And most importantly, have the Boss fight smart. If he/she is surprised, try to get some separation, then disengage, prepare, and resume the fight only when he/she's ready to lay the smack-down. With intelligent bosses, especially ones that have some prior knowledge that the group is interfering with their schemes, have them have a clear plan for
1) breaking contact if surprised by this group
2) gathering troops/minions/tools/buffs
3) reengage at a time/place of their choosing
Note that you've got to play a careful balancing act with this, as your party may walk into a total buzz-kill TPK if you spring this on them without warning.

Shadow Lodge

No rule you can't have a level 20 wizard with max hp and and int of ten in full plate fight your party, I mean that a cr ten encounter if I've ever seen one lol.


RegUs PatOff - I do use moste of those trick, but that is not my issue.

The problem is this:

a)The only way if using the rule book, to make a boss last against melee/rang players, is to buff his AC to a point there the players have trouble hitting the boss.

b) Then a player trouble hitting (fx. one hit every two round), the game become boring for that player.

c) The solution I came up whit, was to make those Templates, that give the boss a lot of hit point, so the players can hit and damage the boss, whitout killing him off in a single round.

I think the main problem is, that players can do an insane amont of damage in Pathfinder, I have seen more that once 8th level players do 160+ of damage in a round?

Silver Crusade

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a) Saying things like "the only way" is a bit too absolute. Plenty of other ways have been presented.

b) Your martials are supposed to deal tons of damage. Most casters can get a chance to auto-win against an enemy, even from range. If a martial gets to full attack, that's the equivalent of their finger of death spell. A full attack against an appropriate CR enemy being likely to kill is part of the game design.

c) Get more creative. RegUs PatOff gave some great examples of how you can compensate for the PC "win strategy". The #1 solution really is to have the boss fight the PCs on his terms, when he's fully buffed and gets a surprise round.


Mythic Simple Agile Template

Or, you know, a constant haste effect, maybe plus hero points.

Those might help out somewhat. Otherwise, Riuken and RegUS PatOff have the right up it.

Incidentally, mass fly exists for a reason, and dimension door is pretty terrible without heavy feat investment, as it leaves you without any actions by the time you get to said boss.

Thus, having a boss flanked by, say, two quicklings with magic weapon cast on their stuff (or heck, even trading in their normal weapons for shadow weapons) while the "trash mobs" (who will, of course, also have flying) makes dimension dooring into the boss a terrible idea.

Heck, have them bind shadows to their service which hide under the rock (total cover and concealment) only to burst onto the scene when the synthesist arrives.

I mean +4 isn't much, but a descrate in the area makes it a +5, which is really nice... especially when they face a flat-footed foe who can't take any actions, and when they start flanking.

Heck, eight ghouls crafted in desecrated area have a couple of extra hit points each, which adds up.

This all adds up. And, for all the damage dealt, only one target can be hit.

Of course, you could always pull an Order of the Stick, and have not one final boss, but four! Or rather, one final boss and three look-alikes.


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Low light, Darkness or other concealments, Blur, Mirror Images etc. are alternatives to AC that don't penalize 3/4 BAB classes over full BAB classes. They also provide a variety of counters from having one player sacrifice one hand for a torch or lantern to dispelling or good old fashion "hack until only one is left"
Making a boss with or giving them Darkvision in some way should not be hard.

What I think you really want is more mobile bosses. The main martial killing tool is the Full Attack action. Make them force the boss into a position where they can use it. Mobility is a good feat for your bosses since it ups the AC when you move him out of their Full Attack range without making it harder to hit with the regular attacks.
Hit and run or run and cast. Focus on Standard action attacks like Vital Strike or Cleave if the boss looses to much threat from lacking multiple attacks.
Back out far enough that the minions coming up from behind him will be AoO threats if they are ignored.


Are your bosses alone, or do they have minions? Any boss worth the title will have lots of minions. If the players are able to get to the boss in the first couple of rounds you don’t have enough minions. The minions should also be going after the witch. If she is able to stay back and cast or hex without worry you need more minions. If one of the characters has to stay back and protect the witch your boss effectively increased its hit points by a 25% and his attacks vs the players by a third. If you don’t want to have a horde of minions consider two lesser bosses instead of just one big one. The single boss will usually lose when faced with four to one odds.

What type of bosses are you throwing at them? The single most effective boss is a spell caster or similar creature instead of a melee brute. Your party is geared towards melee so instead of trying to meet them on their terms, attack them from a different angle. Use ranged combat and spells to make the players work for it.


Minions, healing minions, support minions, meatwall minions. Plenty of bosses, even end of AP bosses, are ridiculously weak to anyone who knows what to do (even when not min-maxing). One of the few bosses I see that can have an interesting fight is the end of Rise of the Runelord. I won't spoil it further, but well...he's got minions, a lot of them, and a diverse bunch at that.

Don't let your players do the rpg/mmorpg thing. Don,t let them buff freely, don't let them explore freely. Monsters and enemies are sentient, they explore, they seek, they prepare too. Your boss shouldn't,t wait on his ass in the *last* room all ready for PC's with 8 rounds of prep time outside his door (unless they make the rolls and manage to not be detected)


Have 14 minions outfitted and disguised to appear as the boss.

Displacement and ablative armor.

Adamantine armor and/or stone skin.

Blink or Dimensional Agility chain to keep moving.

Coward that keeps running away when threatened.

Casting AoE or summon spells while hiding behind minions, hostages, and a solid barrier.

Vampiric Touch.

Reach, fast moving, and spring attack.

Teamwork feats with minions/allies.

Trip, sunder, or disarm/steal PC's weapons.


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As Tacticslion said, use the mythic agile template, also give the boss two or three lives (double or triple hit points), you might not end up gaining more than 1 or (at best) 2 rounds for your boss but thanks to dual initiative those 2-3 rounds will seem longer.


I'm well aware that there are lot of other tricks that can destroy the players Action Economy, my players absolutely hate invisibility and blink? But that are not what I am talking about, that I mean is what is most fun fore the player:

a) The Boss got a extremely high AC, but normal Hit Point, so the player only hit him once every round, but he only need a few hit to go down?

b) The Boss got a decent AC, but extremely many Hit Point, so the player hit him often but he need many hit to go down?

I usual run whit (a) as that's the only tools the rules give me, but I'm beginning to think that (b) is a more fun option for the players?

Let give you a little example from our last game (not a Boss fight):

1) Combat begin, The Synthesist start by casting a Buff.
2) A Frost Giant whit 208 Hit Point, move in and hit the Synthesist.
3) The Alchemist move to flank the Frost Giant, and hit it whit a standard action, damage it by 31 including Sneak Attack.
4) The Synthesist attack the Frost Giant whit Full Attack round, and damage it by 158.
5) The Giant attack the Synthesist whit Full Attack.
6) The Alchemist final get Full Attack, but at this point the Frost Giant only got 19 Hit Point left? So he waste his Full Round attack and kill it off.

So.. The Synthesist had fun, GM had his (my) fun, but the Alchemist not so much.

Again, its not about challenge the players, I got no problem there, at last once every game, the players about to vipe doing to their lack of a healer? It's about, that is most fun for the players?

I want the Boss to last longer, NOT to challenge the players more, but to give all the player a more fun experience? I'm sorry if I did not make that clear to begin whit.


Phonix86 wrote:

I'm well aware that there are lot of other tricks that can destroy the players Action Economy, my players absolutely hate invisibility and blink? But that are not what I am talking about, that I mean is what is most fun fore the player:

a) The Boss got a extremely high AC, but normal Hit Point, so the player only hit him once every round, but he only need a few hit to go down?

b) The Boss got a decent AC, but extremely many Hit Point, so the player hit him often but he need many hit to go down?

I usual run whit (a) as that's the only tools the rules give me, but I'm beginning to think that (b) is a more fun option for the players?

...

I want the Boss to last longer, NOT to challenge the players more, but to give all the player a more fun experience? I'm sorry if I did not make that clear to begin whit.

Then you need to talk to your players not us. I don't particularly enjoy either of those 2 options.

What I think is most fun is when the bad guy is built by the rules but fights cleverly and yet I manage to out clever him to win anyway.

And those 2 are NOT the only 2 options the rules give you. We've given a whole pile of things that will make fights last longer.

Blink is a spell that randomly moves you about the area.


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I took a bodak, blinded it, and gave it full plate armor (non-magical). It rode a shadow unicorn. Had no class levels, but fought sword and board.

My players were terrified of this thing.

One of the players specialized in sundering and after a couple rounds remembered he could do that. Breaking the armor and shield made the bodak easier to fight, but breaking the shield meant he was better off dropping the sword and going for two claw attacks each round. It was not a quick fight, but it was fun for everyone involved.

Amongst my friends I'm considered a specialist in crafting encounters that are difficult, but not overwhelming. It's not easy, and I have enough failures to keep me on my toes. The point is if you want to make an encounter last then you need the players to attack something other than the bad guy. My players had to focus on an evil unicorn and beefy armor before the bodak could be destroyed.

TLDR; give the players something else to attack. Multiple targets, armor that needs to be sundered, a robot's forcefield or something that grants temp hp every turn.

Silver Crusade

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If you are set on having a single monster that gets mauled by the players turn after turn and exchanges blows with them, then of the two options you presented, higher HP is generally preferable.

High AC can be swingy. Sometimes, the PCs will hit every time anyway, and the boss will die like a chump. Other times, they will miss for rounds on end and be frustrated. Making so that damage (read: progress) is applied ever round makes the fight more enjoyable... generally. Either way, you've only slowed down PCs targeting their HP, and with the prior, their HP via their AC. A hold monster spell will still end it, and jacking up saves is even less enjoyable than raising AC.


ElterAgo wrote:


Then you need to talk to your players not us. I don't particularly enjoy either of those 2 options.
What I think is most fun is when the bad guy is built by the rules but fights cleverly and yet I manage to out clever him to win anyway.

And those 2 are NOT the only 2 options the rules give you. We've given a whole pile of things that will make fights last longer.

Blink is a spell that randomly moves you about the area.

Yes I know that ther are other options, and I have used moste of them in some way or another.

I will try to test the templates in my next game, and get the players oppoinents. My biggest corncern is that the fight drag out to much, a Boss battle often takes 2 hours or more at my table.

Btw: Blink work like that in AD&D, but its more powerful in Pathfinder :)

Riuken: you are spot on, about spells.


While not always a fan of the system (it has deeply ingrained flaws that make it difficult to like), taking a page from 4E may help you: you can create a "boss" monster that has 4*max hp for a long-lasting solid entity.

However, here's a thing that I find strange:

Phonix86 wrote:
I will try to test the templates in my next game, and get the players oppoinents. My biggest corncern is that the fight drag out to much, a Boss battle often takes 2 hours or more at my table.

... why are you worried about bosses going down so quickly? This seems in direct contravention to your previous statements. Please explain? Is that because of the "trash mobs"?


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there is a point where a monster has a high AC and its aweful to try and hit it because you can only hit it on a crit, and you can almost never confirm said crit. DR is nice, because atleast your still hitting the creature, even if it is a reduced amount. if its that much of an issue, you could literally just give boss monsters DR X/- and never tell your players what kind of mysterious DR the guy had. or make it DR/epic to atleast give them a fighting chance.

and if your BBEG is just a plain frost giant that your summoner can solo, you need to come with some interesting friends for your bad guys to hang around with. why can't he have a shadow demon for a friend that uses magic jar on a player, and tell them theres extra loot/experience for properly roleplaying their new found loyalties. or an NPC arcane archer that is destroying them from 400 feet away while the frost giant is creating a distraction while they archer rains 4-6 arrows from his unholy or anarchic bow.

this is true of any encounter though. if every encounter is just brutes running in headlong into the shieldwall of your party while your ranged pew pew from behind the safety of their melee and go whole nights never getting touched then thats boring.

you could incorperate traps into an encounter too. nothing says I love my players like a mass hold person trap going off the first round of the fight!

give secondary objectives to your fight as well. like have the ceiling start to collapse and force the barbarian to go hold up a pillar while the party fights to stop the rampaging giant so he'll stop smashing things and causing the room to collapse around you. that last one doesnt sound like a traditionally fun part of an RPG, but its f+!$ing epic in the movies, and they its something that only their character could possibly do because of their massive strength. this would take down your parties ability to do damage each round and make things last longer. DO NOT DO THIS MORE THAN ONCE, or youre fighter/barbarian/paladin will feel like you are just CCing him out of the fights. but its a good idea for a single encounter. any time he fails a DC(insert value here) the party and the BBEG take XdX damage, he must roll each round to see if he can succeed.

just a few ideas


I just had a houserule idea... This might need some tweaking to iron out any potential bugs, though.

I call this Boss Focus. The boss can at any point during his own turn chose to focus on any other creature it can see. From this point on, the boss has increased AC and increased saves against anything that the focused upon character does. Might go as far as to make him impossible to hit.

The focus can be changed at any point during his own turn but only then. Another catch is that if the boss is successfully struck by an attack or spell from another character than the one that currently has focus, and that attack IS SUFFICIENTLY DRAMATIC, then YOU (as the GM, not the boss), can force the boss to focus on the new attacker but only AFTER that character's turn is done.

In fact we might generalize this even further: Whenever ANYONE not currently under focus does something that is extraordinarily cool or successful, that character gains focus at the end of his or her turn.

While this obviously forces everyone to cooperate against the boss (which is the problem we're trying to deal with in the first place), it makes such cooperation less effective than it normally would be as at any point one character is going to be unable to do anything in the first place.

In addition, when metagaming commences, which is going to happen as soon as they realize who has focus, they know that for the battle to go anywhere someone besides the heavy hitting fighter will have to try something to open up the fighter for a new attack.


Tacticslion wrote:


... why are you worried about bosses going down so quickly? This seems in direct contravention to your previous statements. Please explain? Is that because of the "trash mobs"?

Read my 4th post again, i explain it there. But basicely i think the players think its more fun that spending those two hours, hitting the Boss that can take it, that spending two hours trying to hit a Boss, that only require a few hit (7-10).


Phonix86 wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:


... why are you worried about bosses going down so quickly? This seems in direct contravention to your previous statements. Please explain? Is that because of the "trash mobs"?
Read my 4th post again, i explain it there. But basicely i think the players think its more fun that spending those two hours, hitting the Boss that can take it, that spending two hours trying to hit a Boss, that only require a few hit (7-10).
Phonix86's 4th post wrote:

I'm well aware that there are lot of other tricks that can destroy the players Action Economy, my players absolutely hate invisibility and blink? But that are not what I am talking about, that I mean is what is most fun fore the player:

a) The Boss got a extremely high AC, but normal Hit Point, so the player only hit him once every round, but he only need a few hit to go down?

b) The Boss got a decent AC, but extremely many Hit Point, so the player hit him often but he need many hit to go down?

I usual run whit (a) as that's the only tools the rules give me, but I'm beginning to think that (b) is a more fun option for the players?

Let give you a little example from our last game (not a Boss fight):

1) Combat begin, The Synthesist start by casting a Buff.
2) A Frost Giant whit 208 Hit Point, move in and hit the Synthesist.
3) The Alchemist move to flank the Frost Giant, and hit it whit a standard action, damage it by 31 including Sneak Attack.
4) The Synthesist attack the Frost Giant whit Full Attack round, and damage it by 158.
5) The Giant attack the Synthesist whit Full Attack.
6) The Alchemist final get Full Attack, but at this point the Frost Giant only got 19 Hit Point left? So he waste his Full Round attack and kill it off.

So.. The Synthesist had fun, GM had his (my) fun, but the Alchemist not so much.

Again, its not about challenge the players, I got no problem there, at last once every game, the players about to vipe doing to their lack of a healer? It's about, that is most fun for the players?

I want the Boss to last longer, NOT to challenge the players more, but to give all the player a more fun experience? I'm sorry if I did not make that clear to begin whit.

That doesn't really explain it, though. I can critique the specific encounter, if you want, but I'm not sure what you'd want out of it.

Specific Critique:

The giant's tactics aren't really that great. It charges in against a larger group and gets flanked and full-attacked. Why not use it's rock throw to endure a few rounds longer, at least? And if the crew uses dimension door to move into play, you can bet your bottom dollar that the giant is going to full attack the teleporter, then 5-ft step out of flanking position... at least, if you're trying to make it challenging.

The thing is, that doesn't really explain anything. I was specifically commenting on the "it takes multiple hours" and, frankly, a boss that already takes 7-10 full attacks to take down sounds substantially more difficult than necessary already. Unless you just mean 7-10 hits?

Phonix86 wrote:
Read my 4th post again, i explain it there. But basicely i think the players think its more fun that spending those two hours, hitting the Boss that can take it, that spending two hours trying to hit a Boss, that only require a few hit (7-10).

Regardless, I think aiming for a 2-hour slugfest boss is... not the best idea. It sounds like an exercise in frustration to me, as a player, just as much as the unbeatable AC.

Here is my recommendations to make the bosses last longer, but also be more interesting: give them mobility, and let them use it. Make sure that they move around just as much as the PCs. Dimension door isn't a great spell, but if you are having a problem with it, inscribe magic tattoo, fifty-charge command word magic item (spell-trigger is better, but command word allows non-caster baddies to do this), dimension door.

900*3*7 = 21*900 = 18,900 gold

Your bad guy will travel anytime your PCs get too close, and won't run out before they will.

Cheese it, so that you instead only have 25 charges (9,450 gold), or even 15 charges (5,670 gold). Your baddie won't be taking many actions other than to run away, but he'll be harder to full-attack, for sure.

It might feel a bit less cheesy (yet just as annoying) if you make it jester's jaunt instead, limiting the boss to 30 foot teleports, but allowing you full actions in a round (including movement) and, if you have terrain advantage, the range is not really a problem, as you can interrupt full attacks and charges that way.

In a tunnel, black tentacles where the casters are makes a big difference, while obscuring mist where the
martials are makes a huge difference, especially if the monsters are equipped with tattoos of magic missile.

Finally, note that an unhallow effect (like I discussed earlier) with dimensional anchor as its persistent effect is actually exceedingly useful for shutting down teleporting creatures. Whether it affects only those who enter the unhallow or those who attempt to enter it (a GM ruling is required), it's a powerful tool in your arsenal. In fact, if you have the boss in, say, four positions, have the unhallow effects running, and have him with jester's jaunt, the boss can teleport into any of the four spots he needs to, while whoever chases him there might be able to teleport in (up to the GM), but can't teleport out.

Place black tentacles onto the locations and you've got yourself a pretty solid set of traps, a mobile long-lasting boss who can also do other things, and a difficult to defeat system.


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Another thing you might want to consider is how you are determining when an engagement starts. There are a number of ways to use the perception rules to evaluate when one side becomes aware of the other - and at what range.

This can result in the opponent having multiple rounds to buff, prepare the battlefield, position minions, and then start the engagement at a range which is most beneficial to the minions/boss initiating it. Of course, turnabout is fair play - so if the group gets the drop on the boss, you should allow them to carve through the defenders quickly.

Look for positional bias - i.e. I've seen a GM set up the encounter within 40' because the battle map they're using is only an 8" x 8" board. Not saying you're doing that, but take a look at how you structure the meeting engagement phase of the overall battle.

I'll second what everyone (TacticsLion, Riuken, etc) said above, there are a lot of additional ways to buff or modify a combat encounter to make it more interesting. It sounds like you've got some players with strong system mastery - which means it's a challenge to make the combat encounters challenging for them. The Agile, Invincible or Savage Mythic templates are all excellent choices to help boost the boss's survivability, but tactics, mobility, and miss chances are also all valid approaches to do the same thing.


Bonus Hit Points.

That is break the silly rule that NPCS need to follow the same rules as PCs.


If your players complain about bloated AC they will complain about bloated hit points once they notice that being the only real change.
Most of your players seem to have focused on dealing damage. Simply giving your bosses a ton of HP invalidates their specializations when it matters the most.

If encounter duration is the only concern then take a cue from action movies.
Start with a firefight. Some minions with bows or similar blocking charge to the boss and firing on the party. Your boss fires once or twice or throws a few spells. Once the party is closing in on the boss it is time for the next part.
Now it's a car chase. Maybe your baddie has stolen the holy relic or kidnapped some royal and has them on a cart, boat, evil hot air balloon. Its easy to explain why another similar vehicle is nearby. Baddies hid their escape vehicle in plain sight where such are naturally or it was meant for the goons you killed during the firefight to escape in. Time for some more direct confrontation with the boss but still at a distance where the party is at a disadvantage since the lead can duck and blindly throw things in their direction if it gets to hairy while the pursuers need to expose themselves to have a clear shot. Since the boss is leading the way you can have him go past more henchmen that can jump on to attack the party if someone is left with nothing to do. Keep any effect the players land on the boss on him but direct the damage to the vehicle. It will result in either a crash into or an arrival at an awesome showdown location such as a large smelting facility, a garden maze etc.
Then you have a small tip toeing around as the party orients it self and pinpoints where the boss landed/is hiding and the last evil speech time before a classical showdown in a location filled with fun and dangerous items and terrain.
That sort of filler makes the encounter with the boss last longer without making the enemy silly in terms of health or AC. Your players didn't seem to be the sort who did massive CC, heavily focused melee rarely is so it opens up more interactions before the actual punching each other in the face part of the encounter

If you fear that they won't be able to keep up in the chase then overpower them during it and let them have some fun like this


I sometimes find a way to let them last a bit longer.
Once i had one life linked with his wyven mount to get some extra HP. Another had lots of temporary hit points that he him self belived was the dark gods making him unkillable. one had several kids in chains and used there life energy to keep going.
But most often i try to make room for a prebattle talk and a option to solve things with out anybody loosing there head.


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Take 4 PCs, APL 5. They're pretty bad-a. The blaster caster can unleash several Burning Hands spells that deal 35 damage plus 1d6 Burn for 1 round and carries a DC 18 save; the fighter can slam with a +1 flaming greatsword +13 (2d6+16 plus 1d6 Fire); these 2 alone pre-buffs on average deal 61 damage in 1 round. If your villain is not immune to fire or weapon attacks these 2 alone can solo a CR5 or even 6 monster.

Why are PCs so bad-a? Feats and builds, sure, but also action economy and tactics. The four people playing these PCs WANT to win and will use EVERY advantage. A PC in my game remembered he picked up a homebrewed magic item that gave him a ridiculous Acrobatics for Jumping; he leapt 10' in the air to get on a ledge and gain a +1 to hit for higher ground.

I know you say you use some of the tactics above but if you do then your bosses would last longer. So really challenge yourself and determine: are you playing bosses like PCs?

1. Build: all PCs are build to succeed in combat. Most monsters as written in the Bestiaries aren't. Some have a skill focus in Perception when if they only took Power Attack instead they'd be DOMINATING solo combats. This is by far the easiest way to boost your boss - build them purely for that one, glorious gorefest that is the PC/Boss fight.

2. Tactics: PCs have an APL, or average party level. Emphasis: party. A single fighter at level 5 is dealing 26 HP damage in a round. With the addition of a single arcane casting PC he has the chance to be buffed with enhanced AC, Str and they do a combined total un-buffed of 61 damage. The PCs succeed because there's a lot of them. They have action economy, group tactics like flanking, and they use each other's strengths in tandem while covering one another's weaknesses.

Bosses should be no different. If they're called a boss they should command someone or thing; otherwise they're just a "specialist". If PCs get a boost from having one another around, your bosses should be gaining similiar advantage from their minions. A kobold NPC boss to challenge an APL 5 party could be a kobold Adept 2/Warrior 6; not super impressive but with buffs can be extremely tanky riding around on a medium sized mauler arch rat that deals as much damage as a 3/4 bab PC with its bite.

Now imagine if you added in a cleric 3 and a couple warrior 5 kobolds. yes the CR of the fight jumps to epic but no one kobold poses that much of a threat. But then the cleric tanks behind some kind of barrier and keeps dropping buffs on his boss; the 2 warriors survive the first round and are adding in Aid Another bonuses ensuring the kobold boss and his mount are always hitting. Suddenly after 2 rounds the fighter of the party has taken 60 damage and is starting to realize toe-to-toe isn't getting it done while the koblds keep taking 5' steps, flanking, using acrobatics to take no AoO's. The 2 warriors then suddenly change things up in round three, moving to flank the arcane caster and using their teamwork feat plus decent attacks to deal 2d6 +6 plus 2d6 SA damage to him while the cleric comes out from hiding sacrificing himself to heal the boss and also drop a quickened channel.

Hmm, PCs are starting the fight over again at half-strength? Now THAT's epic...

Finally, a note about enviornment and motivation. If you want your boss to last, give them an environment tailored to them. A shadow shouldn't be going toe-to-toe in a big open empty room with lots of PC generated light spells. A giant shouldn't be static in the middle of a cramped cave. If your boss has massive strength give them big things to throw, knock down or break. That frost giant? What if he smashed a false wall that contained frigid glacial waters? Suddenly the chamber fills to a depth of a Medium creature with icy water - the frost giant ignores the cold, acts as Entangled but still walking through the water and all of his opponents are making swim checks every round while taking non-lethal damage from the cold.

The motivation piece comes in 2 parts.

1: sometimes the boss is merely a smokescreen for the real threat. You could kill the boss easy, but the four diseased fast zombies headed up through the sewer will be in the market square in a few rounds and then you'll have an undead plague on your hands; the boss is coated in a slime swarm to which he's immune but the layers are so thick that their own immunity to weapon damage confers to him too; the worg sorcerer is behind a wall spitting Acid Splash spells. In these cases you have to deal with some other thing before you can land those satisfyingly murderderous crits on the boss' face.

2: Bosses should WANT to win! They were born to be #1, not turned into the party's #2. If your villain has access to treasure that helps them, use it; if they have poison or a disease they can unleash it should already be coursing through the PCs' veins. These creatures should be attacking by hit-and-run, leadig PCs into traps, using minions, their environment, and every possible buff to win. Moreover they should be lying, cheating, stealing, and using loved ones as bait constantly.

Level 1 the PCs encounter a Kobold Adept 6 as the head of a cult; they are soundly beaten by him and his minions but vow to end the cult's rule. By level 2 they've won a couple victories and meet the kobold again in battle; he unveils one of the PCs' siblings is a brainwashed agent of the cult and uses them to lead the fight against the PCs while he escapes. Level 3 the PCs have redeemed the sibling and bust up the main lair; the adept leader and his minions harry them with spells, murder holes and traps while the party barely survives to save a bunch of innocents. Now at level 4 the innocents have revealed that the real threat is the resurrection of a dragon and the PCs move to stop this. They again endure the nettling of the kobold cult in the primary cult temple making it all the way to the horde's chapel where they grind their way through dozens of fodder minions to finally go toe-to-toe with the adept who dies laughing; his death was the final ingredient to the dragon's resurrection!

Could the cult leader be brought back for as an undead for a couple slices of the next campaign arc? Who knows, but wouldn't it be fun to find out?


Phonix86 wrote:

...

Btw: Blink work like that in AD&D, but its more powerful in Pathfinder :)
...

You are correct. I forgot our group had house ruled to use the old version because we found it more entertaining.


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Displacement. Seriously, the 50% miss chance will really increase the encounter length and the players are less likely to feel that you are "cheating" then if they need to roll above an 18 to hit.


j b 200 wrote:
Displacement. Seriously, the 50% miss chance will really increase the encounter length and the players are less likely to feel that you are "cheating" then if they need to roll above an 18 to hit.

You could also do the same with simple fog. It's not somehting every PC can see through unless they've bought goggles and if the villain uses some 5' steps they move to the edge, attack, then fade back into the fog for the same concealment.

Obscuring Mist potion, smokestick, simple level 1 spell; all ways to pull this off. Couple with Mirror Image, then Blink and finally Blur, this fight could literally last for hours.


Increasing boss CR levels is simple. All you have to do is add more minions.

Liberty's Edge

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I've personally found that there are only three kinds of "one big boss" encounters: those that end quickly in a TPK, those that end quickly in victory, and those wherein the boss doesn't follow the same rules as the PCs.

I'm not a fan of NPCs not following the same rules as it feels too gamist for my tastes, so I prefer a different approach: minions and dual-bosses.

The minion boss is only about a +1 over the PCs, but has minions that they synergize with. A good example is a cleric that uses channel negative energy to continuously heal their undead (and hurt the players, since my table house-rules that it does both at once).

The dual-boss (or n-boss, but higher than dual is rough) is basically a mini-party of synergizing PC classes of the same (or maybe +1) level as the PCs. Perhaps a Arcanist [Brown-Fur Transmuter] paired with a Barbarian [Beast Totem]. Or a Bard and a Hunter. For extra devious, have a witch see the PCs coming and cast Witness on a martial friend (say, anti-paladin) then walk into the next room and use Witness for line of sight to cast spells on them, and use scar to heal/buff the anti-paladin. Often having a handful (2-4) of extra-weak minions is nice here (just strong enough that they may take 2 hits).

The real key here is: Multiple action pools, synergizing efforts. If you don't want synergizing between the NPCs then you have to do terrain synergy instead (e.g. rangers in their favored terrain, terrain with lots of cover, foes with good vantage points, and a boss with improved precise shot, terrain with very little land coverage but lots of water and a boss with a swim speed, etc). Heck, even an illusionist BBEG that had time to prepare the arena could count as terrain synergy, as could a heavens oracle that laid down traps triggered by pressure (since they exert no pressure on the ground if they have Lure of the Heavens).


StabbittyDoom wrote:
I've personally found that there are only three kinds of "one big boss" encounters: those that end quickly in a TPK, those that end quickly in victory, and those wherein the boss doesn't follow the same rules as the PCs.

You forgot those that end slowly in TPK...

(yes I've been involved in one, on the losing side)


I actually had a pretty decent one recently. My players battled a fairy sorceress (amped up to mythic levels by yours truly) in a fight that lasted about 14-15 rounds. The Queen used invisibility a lot, used a LOT of illusions and spent mythic points freely to take extra actions via Amazing Initiative, cast mythic spells, and use Mirror Dodge whenever the party got too close to her.

Liberty's Edge

Ganryu wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:
I've personally found that there are only three kinds of "one big boss" encounters: those that end quickly in a TPK, those that end quickly in victory, and those wherein the boss doesn't follow the same rules as the PCs.

You forgot those that end slowly in TPK...

(yes I've been involved in one, on the losing side)

Haven't seen that one before. How long in real-world time was it?

I did recently have a fight (as a player) that took about 10 rounds, but the first 6-7 was close to no progress by either side as each was fighting summons or being healed up as fast as they were hurt. Turns out our CC was too good. Once we got a lucky insta-gib in on their healer it quickly went in our favor.

pennywit wrote:

I actually had a pretty decent one recently. My players battled a fairy sorceress (amped up to mythic levels by yours truly) in a fight that lasted about 14-15 rounds. The Queen used invisibility a lot, used a LOT of illusions and spent mythic points freely to take extra actions via Amazing Initiative, cast mythic spells, and use Mirror Dodge whenever the party got too close to her.

If the BBEG had mythic levels and the party didn't, that counts as them not following the same rules ;)

But hey, if your players had fun then who am I to judge?


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StabbittyDoom wrote:


If the BBEG had mythic levels and the party didn't, that counts as them not following the same rules ;)

But hey, if your players had fun then who am I to judge?

They both had mythic levels, although the queen was more mythic than the players were. I think my players had fun, and my players had an interesting time with the encounter. The druid took bat form (for the blindsight) and took on the roll of a general whenever the fairy queen turned invisible.

Paizo Employee

StabbittyDoom wrote:
I'm not a fan of NPCs not following the same rules as it feels too gamist for my tastes, so I prefer a different approach: minions and dual-bosses.

I agree that having humanoid NPCs do things the players flatly cannot is jarring, but the latitude is already there with monsters. You need to be a lot more careful about justifying a wizard big bad than a dragon, in other words.

I think we can probably agree on that point, but my personal opinion extends a bit further.

I feel like advancing non-humanoid enemies (broadly including giants, certain outsiders, and humanoid undead) through class-levels is as divorced from the game world as giving humanoids fiat abilities. If a demon already has a bunch of powers essentially "because that's how demons work," that should also be how they advance.

StabbittyDoom wrote:
If you don't want synergizing between the NPCs then you have to do terrain synergy instead (e.g. rangers in their favored terrain, terrain with lots of cover, foes with good vantage points, and a boss with improved precise shot, terrain with very little land coverage but lots of water and a boss with a swim speed, etc). Heck, even an illusionist BBEG that had time to prepare the arena could count as terrain synergy, as could a heavens oracle that laid down traps triggered by pressure (since they exert no pressure on the ground if they have Lure of the Heavens).

This is 100% spot on, by the way. Terrain is rightfully the star of many of the best fights.

Cheers!
Landon

Liberty's Edge

pennywit wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:


If the BBEG had mythic levels and the party didn't, that counts as them not following the same rules ;)

But hey, if your players had fun then who am I to judge?

They both had mythic levels, although the queen was more mythic than the players were. I think my players had fun, and my players had an interesting time with the encounter. The druid took bat form (for the blindsight) and took on the roll of a general whenever the fairy queen turned invisible.

In that case, well played. Obviously a heavy dose of illusion and misdirection can work for a solo BBEG. It's too bad illusions aren't something that's cool to pull out for every BBEG (or even most of them), but it's definitely thematic for a fairie queen.

It sounds like the Mythic rules that allow extra actions helped keep the action economy up for the boss as well, so that probably contributed. I personally don't use the Mythic rules as I don't typically like playing with "we're special and you're not" rulesets.


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StabbittyDoom wrote:


It sounds like the Mythic rules that allow extra actions helped keep the action economy up for the boss as well, so that probably contributed. I personally don't use the Mythic rules as I don't typically like playing with "we're special and you're not" rulesets.

It does help the action economy. The mythic spells can also be pretty interesting. In this encounter, three of the party's damage dealers -- an alchemist, a rogue, and a barbarian -- got grappled by black tentacles. The barb and the rogue got free, but the alchemist didn't. Meanwhile, the queen tried a mythic Baleful Polymorph on the wizard. He (sigh) made his Fortitude save. Rather than becoming a parakeet, he just LOOKED like a parakeet for a while. (The player lives for things like this, and he occasionally squawked while bantering in combat).

Funniest moment:
Faerie queen was invisible, so the rogue (under a mythic haste spell) decided to loot the room. For comedy purposes, I ruled this was a full-round action as she gathered up everything valuable a la the Flash.

My players' earliest encounter with these rules was an early battle with a summoner who'd been a thorn in their side for a few sessions. He was mythic, they were not (defeating him was part of the players' mythic trial). The final battle with him was actually a siege scenario where he brought a whole army ... and when the summoner finally fell, EVERY player raced over to his fallen body so they could coup de grace him and make him dead. I've never seen players hate somebody that much.


Ganryu wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:
I've personally found that there are only three kinds of "one big boss" encounters: those that end quickly in a TPK, those that end quickly in victory, and those wherein the boss doesn't follow the same rules as the PCs.

You forgot those that end slowly in TPK...

(yes I've been involved in one, on the losing side)

Slow in real life time or slow in-game time (8+ rounds)?

I had battles that took 4-5 rounds but those rounds took 6+ hours to play.

Grand Lodge

Ablative mooks. I find that an enemy with a CR equal to the party level, plus four enemies of CR = APL - 4 makes for a decent set up. The enemies have a slight edge in action economy against a four-man party, and the Big Bad gains protective and tactical options like flanking (or protecting their own flanks) as they push against the PCs. It ends up being a CR of APL + 2, which is a decent finale for an average dungeon. For really important BBEGs, up the BBEG's CR by one, and each of the mooks by one as well. for APL + 2.

As always, discretion and tactful thought is needed, as not all CRs were created equal, and tactics can play a huge role. If you've got a Reach Cleric villain that holds a bottleneck with his flanks covered with casters buffing and healing him while harrying the party, it's a lot better than having them in an open field where the villain can't control the battle on his terms.


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StabbittyDoom wrote:

{. . .}

The dual-boss (or n-boss, but higher than dual is rough) is basically a mini-party of synergizing PC classes of the same (or maybe +1) level as the PCs. {. . .}

Actually, why not substitute a boss with a whole boss party? I even saw a few on d20pfsrd.com in the NPCs section, although I haven't studied them carefully enough to know how well the enemy party members synergize with each other (I got the impression that some of them have better than zero synergy, however).

Also, I get the impression on these boards that players typically do not like Teamwork feats due to the need to coordinate builds, rather than inherent weakness in the feats, so have the enemy parties (or even enemy boss + minions groups) of more Lawful bent take advantage of this -- THEY can use Teamwork feats as much as you want -- all within rules that players COULD use, but don't. It might take some experimentation (not sure how much people have already tested this), but you could probably get even below-CR parties (but still built according to PC rules, just lower levels and with worse equipment) to give the PC party a lot of trouble even if they have lower levels and substandard equipment. This would be particularly sweet if you can pull it off with some of the enemies having classes that are currently considered underpowered (Rogue, anyone?). Meanwhile, when the PC party does win, the players will have the reward of having managed to win a really hairy fight, but their characters won't be getting excessive loot or XP (if you use that).

Also have behind-the-scenes bosses adapt to the defeats of their minions at the hands of the PC party, and have them take careful note of where the PCs left themselves weak, especially if they min-max optimized. Ideally, you want the players to be saying "how can these peons be giving us so much trouble after all the optimization we did?". Also, especially in the early stages when you are still trying to figure out the balance in this and might accidentally make an encounter too tough, feel free to convert a Total Party Kill into a Total Party Capture, optionally with the boss taunting the PCs (after they wake up) about how their failure to adhere to Infernal discipline has resulted in their inevitable defeat. An alternative is for the villains (especially if they are outright pirates or other bandits) to simply strip the PCs of all their stuff (which may or may not include their clothes), and leave them tied up in a dangerous area, but the PCs wake up battered but alive and eventually escape their bonds, optionally while looking at a taunting note left by the villains(*). Depending upon what else the villains do (and of course on just what kind of players you have, the villains deciding to take the PCs alive instead of just killing them might even convince the players to be less murderhobo.

(*)A variation of this where the enemies are intentionally overpowered could be an option for replacing the railroad start of Serpent's Skull with something more interesting. It would still be a railroad, but at least one that has an interesting track layout instead of being some stub-end branch line in Skankee, Missihoma. DM Barcas did an awesome variation of this in this awesome Skull & Shackles PbP (which turned an AP that I had a lot of distaste for into one of my favorite ones to follow, even though I think my original opinion of this AP would still be valid for the AP as written -- mind you, this was part of what is obviously a MASSIVE REWRITE).


IF I was going to do something to make a single entity Boss and try and change it up to where he was more of a challenge I would do the following:

Maximum HP for his type (typically this will lead to the sorts of increases people are talking about here).

Extra Actions -- for every 2 PC's I give him another set of actions on a different initiative order.

So for a 'standard' party of 4 the boss will get to go twice in a round, whereas against a party of 6 he'll get three actions in a round. In both cases the extra actions are on separate initiatives.

That will generally handle what you need.

However:

I generally prefer using mooks, underlings and terrain instead of giving extra actions to one creature.


One other thing ... when I'm running a published adventure, I usually toss out a chunk of the BBEG's "tactics" section. I did this with a CN cleric BBEG at one point in a fifth level campaign. Between her bloody skeleton minions, negative energy channeling, and the Death Knell spell, she killed two PCs before the last two players standing -- a witch and a cleric -- finally took her down with their crossbows.

Liberty's Edge

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UnArcaneElection wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:

{. . .}

The dual-boss (or n-boss, but higher than dual is rough) is basically a mini-party of synergizing PC classes of the same (or maybe +1) level as the PCs. {. . .}
Actually, why not substitute a boss with a whole boss party? I even saw a few on d20pfsrd.com in the NPCs section, although I haven't studied them carefully enough to know how well the enemy party members synergize with each other (I got the impression that some of them have better than zero synergy, however).

My hesistance with the full boss party approach is that it is easy to accidentally oversynergize the builds. It also requires a lot more work to build the encounter, memorize the abilities, create tactics, etc.

That said, I still want to do a high-level boss encounter with a party of bards at some point, each using a different perform to boost the whole group. Probably need a couple to be at APL-1 to avoid horrifying pain.


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StabbittyDoom wrote:

...

That said, I still want to do a high-level boss encounter with a party of bards at some point, each using a different perform to boost the whole group. Probably need a couple to be at APL-1 to avoid horrifying pain.

I actually tried that recently. it wasn't as effective as I thought it would be. If it had been a bunch of bards all boosting a fighter it might have done more. But all the boosting still didn't bring them up to the level of a martial character.

The bards were still dangerous but it was actually because of all the spell casting. Cast 5 confusion spells on the opening round. Even with an emphasis on save modifiers, some one will fail on 1 of them. Cast 5 sonic screams (no one typically has resistance to sonic) that adds up to a LOT of area damage. Etc...

A group that was more effective than expected was a group of cavaliers. All of them bestowed different teamwork feats on all the others (and their mounts). So they all had 10 teamwork feats active in addition to all the rest of their mounted combat charging danger.

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