Ross Byers wrote:
yes I agree, if you couldnt get someone to do what your asking using diplomacy, then you cant get them to do it with charm person. with charm person, you might be able to push it A LITTLE BIT, but not much more than a diplomacy check against someone who is at max friendliness to you
charm person would be usefull in a situation where you stealthed into BBEG's castle, managed to get a one on one with the captain of his mercenary guard company and got a charm person off on him. then you could offer him a stupid amount of money to switch sides, which mercenary companies often do, and use your CHA check to convince him that you'll "definately pay him later when this is all done." hell even convince him he's been paid with fools gold, or illusions of gold that arent actually real, really sell him on turning against his former master. but no, you could not really convince a good man to kill his family. you could convince an assassin to kill someone though.
I think a big part of peoples problem with charm person is that some people treat it like an I-win button, when in actually its an I have a great opportunity to slightly shift the balance of power in my game-button.
its a lot of fun to play around with the spell, and a great opportunity for roleplaying. as a GM though, you have to make sure its not the players I-win button.
as a GM, if you roleplayed the s!%+ out of it, came up with all sorts of convincing arguements, and really came up with a compelling story why they would kill someone, then I'd consider it. but if you just said "I cast charm person, then I make a charisma check to get him to kill his cousin the evil duke." then no, its a level one spell, and should not be a save or suck to turn someone into your own personal assassin.
I'm a huge proponent for charm person working in fun and interesting ways, and all spells/skills for that matter. but it is a level 1 spell.
Dominate person is the spell your looking for. that will get what you need done every time, so long as they fail their will save twice.
I actually did cover this somewhat by talking about using using another player using his bluff skill, or maybe perform, to draw attention away.
having said that, to give you more back ground on the scenario i was working with was that the cult where holed up in a safe house, and there was a password to get in. which means one of those great little slidy windows in the door, as every movie tells us accompanies buildings with passwords. which would mean that I would not be visible to anyone else in the room, while having eye contact with the person answering the door, but not being the center of his focus while someone gives him the password.
anyways, I really appreciate everyones feedback!
anyone else got any good stories about fun uses with charm person?
a specially designed stage that can spring up on all four sides of the archbishop to provide full cover at the moments notice of an attack, with a secret trap door leading below the stage where one of you is waiting to get him to safety. have your wizard memorize the shield spell so he can provide the bishop with an AC bonus if needed. if your bishop has any money himself, glamoured set of armor to boost his AC if needed.
Detect alignment/evil on anyone trying to get near him. Paladin should be a food taster to prevent the bishop from being poisoned, as paladin should have stupid levels of fort saves. If he has less than +8 at level 5, he's doign it wrong. or a dwarf with a high fort save, if any of your monks are dwarfs.
your whole group needs to be on full doppelganger alert. I repeat, full doppelganger alert. have a code word set up that only the actual characters would know, then if anyone is seperated and the GM is instructing them to act the doppelganger, the player will have to say his character doesnt know. you would not believe how much fun it is to play a doppelganger/shapeshifter, especially if your GM has promised you big rewards for RPing it well :) so be wary, none of your friends/players are to be trusted.
as far as the imposter NPC's possibly using conceal alignment, zone of truth from your paladin will solve that.
your wizard using Major image to produce multiple copies of the bishop while doing the speech is an excellent idea, if you trust your GM not to just wave the magic GM hand and bypass that. I'd prefer to use Illusion magic to make it look like he's actually on a platform 4 feet higher than he actually is, so that any attacks on him will sail harmlessly over his head. if your wizard has anticipate peril, use that on whoever has your highest initiative score to be prepared to get the bishop out of there asap.
aid another action to bump bishop AC is good if you dont know where the attack will come from. try and boost his AC incase your GM is faking you guys out and its just going to be an arrow shot from the crowd.
I'll try and think of some more if I can
I've just did a search of the forums for examples of fun uses of charm person, and all I can find are stories of people either wanting to know why their GM wont treat this spell as basically dominate person, or GMs complaining about players trying to basically make this spell dominate person.
I have a bard, and I want to try and use this spell in interesting ways, even bordering on some interesting ways to start combat to our groups advantage. like infiltrating a cult of demon worshipers using disguise skill and looted cultist outfits along with a charm person at the first introduction to the cultists. In conjunction with a silent image to make one of the cultists look like they had a holy symbol of iomedae hidden up their sleeve. followed by an opposed charisma check to make charmed person openly accuse their fellow cultist of heresy. who knows if this would actually cause the other cultists to kill one of these two, either the accuser or the accused. using another player to make bluff checks to distract the other cultists so they dont see my bard casting, or my own bluff check to hide behind another player to mask my casting.
In my opinion, as a player if I go through that much trouble to set up what I consider to be a good strategy, I dont see anything wrong with this resulting in the death of a cultist, and even my group getting a surprise round out of the deal after they've dealt with their own. but some people seem to think that stuff like this is abusing first level spells.
whats with all the charm person hate, this seems like a way more fun way to start combat than "we draw our weapons and attack, everyone roll initiative."
a Dirge bard, ultimate magic I think, can cast his mind effecting spells on undead at second level. they are really amazing for carrion crown. this really offers a great amount of versatility to overcome encounters that are not previously considered by most parties.
the same can be said for undead bloodline sorcerors. both are amazing in carrion crown.
I'm trying to portrait a monk's monestary that is shifting from the lawful neutral Irori style of monk to the lawful evil asmodeus style of monk. corruption from within the ranks, even the monestaries ancient master gets poisoned by one of his own. but all this happens behind the scene and I was hoping for some advice on how to portrait subtle hints in this alignment change before revealing any big changes?
thanks in advance for any advice offered.
all any evil isolated society needs to be self sufficient is other people to abuse/take advantage of. so in your case, you could have a two tiered system. a family/clan/rival tier of society that are constantly fueding/warring/trading with each other. and then the slave class. the rise and fall of the various houses in a power struggle, based off the back of the slave class is enough to sustain a civilizations economy.
I have been just watching the video's by noah antwiler, aka spoony, and I am most impressed by how entertaining he is to watch. I dont know any other people who make videos like that and I was hoping that I could get some suggestions on where to find them. I have watched some of the dawnforged stuff and he is very informative, but he doesnt have the same presence as spoony.
here is who I am talking about.
Abraham spalding wrote:
I really like how all the problems you list are solved by talking to the GM. this really needs to be restated again. If you have a problem with how things are being run, talk to your GM.
it would be worth taking a dip into sorc for the infernal blood line to get the +2 DC to charm/dominate person if you were going to be using those spells at all. things like heroism, haste and good word are great spells to have but you might get a little tired of buffing after a few sessions spent standing in the back twiddling your thumbs. I'm not sure if there is an arcana where you can increase the DC of illusion spells but if your going to be doing illusion/enchantments at all then its worth looking into.
plus with the one level dip into sorcerer you can have a lot of fun by getting 4-5 extra charm persons per day. it really does make the out of combat stuff a lot of fun.
disclaimer, I dont know anything about iron gods or pathfinder technology books. you might need to take some sort of archtype like the technology version of the dirge bard to make mind effecting spells work on robots, I'm not sure.0
work out some sort of variation of the spell arcane lock with your DM. and make sure you have access to the use of detect object, which is only a second level arcane spell.
generally though, people aren't worried about this unless you think the DM is planning on stealing it. so talk to your DM and find out what his thoughts on the matter are and gauge his response.
bard would make a great addition considering how melee heavy you are. inspire courage, heroism/hastes work wonders for buffs. and dont forget that only about 40% of enemies in CC will be undead, there are a tonne of aberations and humanoids as well. so bards illusion/enchantment spells will be more effective than I think most people give them credit for.
a dirge bard archtype can effect undead creatures with their enchantment spells, and gains +4 to save vs energy drain effects which is kind of a staple of the undead campaigns.
set them up with encounters they can't win just by charging in with a full frontal assault. make them work for their victories. if they have to stealth into an encampment taking out sentries, using charm person/dominate person or alter self and their disguise skill in fun and interesting ways then they deserve to think of themselves as awesome. If they are just min/maxed character sheets who want to hack and slash through stuff then teach them the finer nuances of role playing.
if they need ideas on this kind of thing then have then search youtube for "bardic knock spell" by spoony.
if you want them to FEAR you as a gm, then just kill one of them. but if you want them to take your encounters a little more seriously and not just steam roll through stuff, make encounters that are about more than just how hard you hit and how high your AC is.
I will say this. The most fun I've had as a GM was playing the role of lunderbud in rise of the runelords. He's an advanced hill giant with literally no part in the story, but he was big and dumb so I played him up like an enraged 4 year old throwing a tantrum as soon as one of the players mis-pronounced his name as "lunderbutt". and hilarity ensued.
Insane characters are a blast to portray, and I would never allow my players to take that fun away from me.
I would tell your players you have made up your mind on whether or not this will cure him, but you will not tell them. then make the reincarnation experience very traumatic for the NPC and give him MORE INSANITIES! and turn him into a recuring insane villain that blames them for all of his mental distress, not just the new ones from having his soul shoe-horned into another body to make things more convenient for the players.
you could go aasimar bard and take the favored class bonus that allows you to get inspire courage +4 at lvl 12 and then take 8 levels of DD. arcane duelist archtype for the extra feats, and focus on melee bard with high str and buff spells like haste and heroism. your party will love you for inspire courage +4 at lvl 12. maybe even take a one level dip into barbarian for the rage and you'll jack your strength up hugely from DD and barbarian.
if you wanted a full caster thats nuking people this isnt really for you, but then again thats not really what the flavor of the dragon disciple seems to be with the extra strength and natural armor in there. but thats just my two cents
Low intellect high wisdom characters can be described as your stereo typical dumb construction worker, who still knows how to build a hell of a good house. He might not be book smart, but he's got common sense coming out the wazzoo.
its a lot of fun.
if you play it and dont like it, nothing we say can change that.
play what you like. if pathfinder and 5th edition dont do it for ya, find another game to play and let us know it goes.
a falchion wielding barbarian that takes imp critical, or uses a keen falchion. the crits done with a weapon on a roll of 15-20 only do double damage unless your playing mythic, but it sounds like you might want to play mythic if your going for that big, overstated, anime style cutting houses in half with a sword. mythic barb crits 15-20 and does triple damage with his crits if you spec him out right.
even none mythic, the falchion barbarian is crazy amounts of damage output.
the problem with giving advice on things like this crazy two headed cleric is that everyone has played with that wierd player who is just trying to stick it to the other PCs in either passive aggresive ways, or out and out just trying to f%+% with people. most people will be hung up because they are painting you with that brush.
now if your doing this in a group of players that you are geniune friends with, even away from the table, and your just looking for a way to have some really fun role playing experiences then I say go for it man! have fun and do whatever your GM will allow you too. especially if its a home brew setting.
Hope you have lots of fun with your crazy medium sized ettin cleric!
you could try a UMD rogue and just pick up a wand of flameblade, going full rogue. or a slayer/ninja doing teh same thing, but less skill points to toss around.
for the record, there is no range listed for inspire courage, its just "to be affected, an ally must be able to see or hear the bard" so a bard, with perform: percussion, working a serious pair of war drums could easily inspire everyone withing a hundred feet I'd think, farther if there wasnt a huge battle going on around them lol
are you making the S.H.I.E.L.D aircraft carrier from avengers? old timey Avengers assemble?!!?!
I play in a group where half the people playing have jobs that are basically on call and their hours change every single week. we never play on the same day twice it seems. the biggest factor for us is that we are all friends and/or family that we see outside of pathfinders anyways. when you play with friends, you will make time to get together. when you play with strangers, it will always inevitably fall apart on some level because RPGs arent really enough to keep people together if you don't like these people.
table top RPGS dont attract the same kind of people that a beer league softball game attracts, or a pick up soccer game attracts. you will need to put in some serious effort socially with some of these people. Iomedae bless their hearts, but its true.
Maybe all you need to keep these people coming back is to make friends with the ones you want to spend time with and that can be your gaming group? I honestly have never played this game with a bunch of strangers, and have never played PFS. I love the game, but I just dont think its enough to hold my attention without the social aspect of it.
This game provides so much more than an opportunity to kill orcs, it provides you the opportunity to kill orcs with your buds!
just my two cents
If there is a druid or ranger in your party I would turn this into a whole quest for them to gain a special feat that allows them to tame dragons as animal companions. this would require MASSIVE amounts of house rules and very careful consideration by the DM to make sure this doesnt become a problem down the road, but it could be A LOT of fun for the whole group.
remember, your the DM, you can do anything.
in my campaigns I always have the local churchs offer bounties on evil artifacts so that they dont fall into the wrong hands again. Allows good players to profit from finding treasure without selling it back to someone who would turn its uses for evil down the road thus costing the paladin his class abilities by knowingly aiding future evil acts.
if your players are heros, then they should either destroy it, or try and collect a similar bounty like I put forward.
If they are murder hobos, they should hatch it and train it to burn things!